I Bought The Power Commander, Redux

[smiller]

I bought the Power Commander... from Larry (ldrider) who originally bought the Power Commander but due to some bad mechanical fortune was unable to try it out. So... got it installed on my 1996 R1100RT tonight. The Power Commander (www.powercomander.com) unit is similar in function to the Techlusion but is a good deal more sophisticated, i.e. instead of simply adding some extra fuel the Power Commander employs a wideband O2 sensor and will allow the bike to run in closed-loop operation at any specific air/fuel ratio set by the user. (Standard narrowband sensors such as the original equipment on BMW motorcycles and most all other vehicles cannot determine an actual A/F ratio, only indicate whether the mixture is richer or leaner than stoichiometric.) The basic ECU fueling map map can also be altered to set a desired mixture at any given rpm and throttle position (all this is done via a slick PC interface.) You can even add an air/fuel ratio gauge as an option if you like to observe such things while you are riding, but since the unit can automatically maintain any A/F ratio you desire it isn't really necessary unless you want to get into tuning. Dynojet (who makes the Power Commander) runs each stock bike application on a dyno and supplies a optimized map with the unit so no there's no real need to experiment if you don't want to, but of course you can further optimize should you go to any non-stock components. This latter function can be quite important for modified sportbikes but obviously no so much with an oilhead. My main objective is simply to maintain closed-loop operation at known mixture rich enough to make the bike run as it should but without having to resort to simply adding fuel in the blind and hoping for the best (i.e. by playing with cat code plugs, enrichment add-ons, etc.)

 

Installation of the Power Commander is pretty simple, just install the wideband O2 sensor inplace of the original and otherwise it's a plug-in affair (Power Commander connections go to the bike's O2 sensor input, TPS, and both injectors.) I had the minor and expected PITA getting the old O2 sensor loose but no other issues. Once installed I plugged the Power Commander into the USB port on my laptop and brought up the software which instantly recognized and started communicating with the unit. I loaded Dynojet's map for the R1100R/RT and did a quick procedure to make sure that the Power Commander properly recognized my fully open and fully closed TPS, then... held my breath and started the bike.

 

Luckily, no drama... the bike started right up and settled into its usual idle. The laptop display was reading rpm, throttle position, A/F ratio (neat!), whether the ECU was in open or closed-loop operation, and the current status of the O2 sensor. I immediately noticed the the A/F ratio was rather rich, like around 12:1. What's up? Oh, that's right... the engine is cold, it's supposed to be rich. After a few minutes warm up the bike went into closed-loop and the A/F ratio locked onto my desired setting (double neat!)

 

A little digression about choosing a cruise A/F ratio... it is generally thought that the best compromise for both power and reasonable economy for non-cat street applications is around 13.8:1, however a precise stoichiometric (14.7:1) mixture is required for efficient operation of the cat on cat-equipped vehicles. This latter setting is rather lean and does involve some measure of a performance and driveability cost (as detailed in the attached graph), and unfortunately the oilhead design is somewhat sensitive to being run on the lean edge like this, resulting in the lean surge issues of which all but a lucky few of us are aware. Anyway, my intention is to test from 13.8:1 to 14.7:1 and see if I can find the leanest the bike can be run (and thus closest to the efficient operation range of the converter) while still achieving good driveability. (I should comment at this point that this post is intended as a review of the Power Commander and to address any related operational questions and is not intended to seed any emissions control/personal responsibility discussions. If you want to discuss this aspect (yet again) please do so in a separate thread. )

 

Will start the road tests tomorrow and will report back, but I'm pretty impressed by what I've seen so far. I'm really not expecting anything dramatic of course, just (hopefully) improved driveability closer to what the bike should really be capable of. If you're interested, stay tuned.

[Stan Walker]

Will start the road tests tomorrow and will report back

 

Interesting indeed.

 

Stan

[red102]

Looking forward to your conclusion.....

[smiller]

Well not quite a final conclusion yet but I have to say that the early results have somewhat exceeded my expectations. I was anticipating an improvement similar to that achieved by removing the CCP but with improved mileage as a result of operating closed-loop. Driveability seems much better than running straight on the internal (CCP-less) ECU map though. All of the issues related to overly-lean operation (surging, dull throttle response, etc.) have disappeared... now zero lean surge (even when I try to generate it), crisper throttle response and an overall increase in willingness to rev. Also the typical 3k-4k flat spot is much less apparent than it was before, perhaps gone entirely. No real change in absolute power output as far as I can tell, but that's as expected. I don't know that I'd call the part-throttle difference night-and-day because I had the bike running pretty well prior to the Power Commander install, but nonetheless there was improvement immediately apparent from the first ride and I am very satisfied with the result. No mileage figures available yet as it will take some more time for me to make consistent measurements, but I'm expecting a slight improvement and we'll see how close my guess is. This is all at 13:8:1 by the way, once I get some more experience with this setting I'll try leaning it out a bit and see what happens.

 

Comparison to a Techlusion? I don't own one so I can't do a very good job of that. Advantages of the Power Commander is that it is ready to go out-of-the-box without any setup/tuning hassles, plus the incidental advantages when it comes to maintenance in having a built-in A/F meter and O2 sensor diagnostics. As I mentioned previously my preference for the Power Commander was mostly due to just being tired of working in the blind and my desire to know for sure what I was really doing to the mixture settings. OTOH I would expect that that the Techlusion is capable of similar performance improvements (depending on how successful one is in setting the adjustment pots) for about half the price of the Power Commander so which one to choose is going to be somewhat subjective. If you are geeked-out by the programmability of the Power Commander then it might be worth the extra dollars to you and if not you can save a couple hundred bucks with the Techlusion and probably get similar results. One additional item to consider is that if you have over 50-75k miles on your bike you're probably due for a new O2 sensor anyway and considering that a replacement O2 sensor comes with the Power Commander that does serve to mitigate the cost difference between the two down to within $100 or so.

 

In any event after experiencing how much of the oilhead driveability issues seem to be based on fueling (or lack of it) I would recommend one or the other of these solutions to anyone with an oilhead driveability problem, or for those who are just picky about such things. Much cheaper than swapping bikes, dual plugging, etc., and (in my short experience at least) a very effective way to cure Motronic driveability issues.

 

I'll post some before-and-after mileage comparisons as well but it will probably take me a while to gather that.

[Stan Walker]

Sounding good. Keep up the good work!!!!

 

Having looked at the hexheads styling I'm most likely going to keep my '02 RT for many more years, so I'm very interested in what the impact is on gas mileage.

 

Stan

[BMWRRZZRRTTOHH]

I'm very interested to see your dynorun results

 

Got my powercommander installed a few weeks ago and did a dynorun last week.

Quite a difference after the run I tell you.

On the added chart blue is before the run with a standard EU R1150RT map loaded.

Red is after adjustment.

 

Still need some small adjustment around the 2000 - 3000 RPM range though.

[smiller]

I'm very interested to see your dynorun results

Yeah, I'm starting to think about that (for those unfamiliar with the Power Commander, in addition to the optimized 'stock bike' map provided with the unit you have the option of going to any of the many Dynojet-equipped tuning centers around the country and having a custom made made for your own bike... downloaded directly from the dyno to your unit. I don't know what this service costs, but... hmmmm....).

 

Just got back from another test ride BTW, purposely doing a lot of low-speed in-traffic stuff. I can't believe how much more pleasant the bike is to ride now, especially in those 30 mph zones where it's difficult to avoid the surge range. Much smoother in part-throttle off the line starts as well, and I mean much smoother. Judging by the RID gauge mileage is definitely improved, but that method is not very accurate and the improvement seems so dramatic that I hesitate to make any claims yet. Another potential factor in the amount of improvement may well be that at 72k miles my original O2 sensor was way past its prime so I don't know that I can attribute 100% of the improvement to the Power Commander alone, some may be due just to a fresh O2 sensor.

 

Even at this early stage of testing I find myself wishing I had done this a long time ago though instead of futzing with it for endless hours as I have. This has been an eye-opener for me and I'm beginning to believe that the stock map/closed-loop calibration was crippling the bike even more than I had originally thought.

[red102]

My local dynojet dealer charged me $300.00 for a custom map for my Roadstar Warrior. The best $$$ I spent on that bike.

It took him about 4 hours on the dyno.

[BMWRRZZRRTTOHH]

... The Dynojet run was free of charge in my case

The run was incuded in the powercommander price they told me

 

@smiller If you want I can send you the powercommander map that was created during the run.

Motorcycle: a stock 2004 EU R1150RT with 98 octance fuel.

The only modifications I had made were some GS's manifolds and Denso anti KFR plugs.

[smiller]

That's an interesting dyno graph, BTW. You can clearly see the lean setting in the 4k-5k range and the significant power improvement made by richening a bit in this area. The GS manifolds probably explain the dip in the higher rpm range.

 

I would like to get a higher-res copy of the chart and the map file... I sent you a PM with my email address. Thanks.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Seth,

You might want to explore leaning it down a bit in the 10-15% throttle opening range. Most steady state cruising is in and around there and you should be able to approach stochiometry (14.7:1) there without too much performance penalty. In particular if you add fuel just beyond that throttle position. You should realize a pretty good improvement in fuel consumption. The PC will interpolate a bit between steps so maybe 14.7:1 at 10%, moving gradually into the 13.8:1 range at 15%. I once got an airhead, running a Haltech ECU up over 55 mpg doing this.

 

This is something near and dear to my heart as my Blackbird gets terrible fuel milage. I stayed away from a PC because the payback was well over 2 years at the old fuel prices but, regular is $3.05/gal in my area now and it is starting to make some sense.

[smiller]

Ed,

 

I'm not sure if I can alter the closed-loop mixture based on rpm/throttle position as the closed-loop ratio seems to be a global setting. My understanding is that the rpm/throttle position-based settings on the Power Commander map affect open loop operation only... which leads me to a question... when setting the Power Commander map using its PC application, data cells up to about 70-80% of maximum throttle have a gray background and regions above this are white, and per Dynojet this gray area represents closed-loop operation. But user-defined entries are possible in the gray area and I'm not sure what effect these have. I would guess that these come into play whenever the unit is in open loop, but when does this happen? During rapid throttle transitions where O2 sensor loop lag would prevent an optimum closed-loop mixture?

 

Or perhaps I have this wrong and entries in the gray area do actually alter the closed-loop mixture. Guess this is a question for Dynojet tech support... or I could add the optional A/F gauge to my setup and see for myself...

 

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Not having seen or messed with a PC yet, myself, I couldn't say for sure. I'm pretty sure though that the range from say 20-70% would be open loop or at least modifiable(sp). Most maps don't go above about 75% throttle, in particular at higher RPM as the injectors have pretty much gone 'static' up there. Mixture is more a function of injector size and fuel pressure at that point. I believe the cutoff point for closed loop operation on the stock system is right around 15% as well. I'm pretty sure it woudln't hurt to take say 5% off the pulse width down in the lower throttle openings. At worst, the system will ignore you, at best, you might gain a bit on the efficiency curve at very little penalty in drivability.

 

Could you send me a screen capture of the map? I might be able to tell a bit more.

[smiller]

Could you send me a screen capture of the map? I might be able to tell a bit more.

Actually, you can download both the Power Commander PC application and the stock map databases for any bike directly from www.powercommander.com so you can take at look at all the features (actually some features will be inactive since you won't be connected to the unit, but you can view and manipulate the map.) If you would prefer screenshots though I can do that... let me know.

 

And I just noticed something very interesting... take a look and compare the stock maps for the R1100 (M916-001.djm) and the R1150 (M918-001.djm)... there is a significant difference in the closed loop operating region for these bikes.

[James Clark]

Could you send me a screen capture of the map? I might be able to tell a bit more.

Actually, you can download both the Power Commander PC application and the stock map databases for any bike directly from www.powercommander.com so you can take at look at all the features (actually some features will be inactive since you won't be connected to the unit, but you can view and manipulate the map.) If you would prefer screenshots though I can do that... let me know.

 

And I just noticed something very interesting... take a look and compare the stock maps for the R1100 (M916-001.djm) and the R1150 (M918-001.djm)... there is a significant difference in the closed loop operating region for these bikes.

 

 

http://www.powercommander.com/suppsoft.shtml

 

will get you to the download page.

 

Software, manuals, tutorials.

 

 

http://www.powercommander.com/suppbmwmaps.shtml

 

gives you the BMW maps.

[mikefigielski]

I did the whole custom map Power commander thing on my '94 RS and I can tell you that there are only 3 areas that can be adjusted. The closed loop, 80% throttle and 100% thottle. Now, that being said, you can alter fueling at 500rpm intervals at both 80% and 100% throttle openings. I bought my unit from a Dyno Jet tuning center and the map set up is included, although I flipped John and Dyno-solutions an extra $50 since we were there for a long time dialing it in due to all of the mods my bike has. Trying to tune it yourself without the aid of a dyno and experience tuner is getting into the same deal as you described earlier; wishing you had not spent all of those hours messing around with it yourself.... All you can really do reliably on your own is set the closed loop A/F mixture by trial and error. If your bike is stock, the standard map will be really close to optimum, but all bikes are a little different and if you like perfect go to a dyno tuner. If you have any mods at all, I'd say it is a must. The Techlusion can be dialed in pretty well on the dyno also, BTW. Hope this helps.

Mike

[smiller]

Thanks for the comments Mike. My own experimentation (playing with the settings in the closed loop area of the map and not finding any resultant changes in the A/F ratio) would seem to support your statement that this area is not intended to be tweaked. This is what I kind of expected as modifying this area would kind of defeat the purpose of having closed-loop operation in the first place. Still, there are some entries in this area on some of the Dynojet stock maps for the BMW bikes and one has to wonder if settings in the closed-loop area are ignored why has Dynojet themselves put entries in this area?

 

This is all mostly just curiosity on my part anyway since with a completely stock bike I doubt that I would see any significant optimization at 80-100% throttle (the open loop area) as a result of custom tuning vs. Dynojet's dyno-derived recommended map (which curiously enough actually removes a bit of fuel at high throttle openings from the BMW stock map.) In fact, I see this as an advantage of the Power Commander vs. a Techlusion for casual use... the Power Commander's closed-loop operation eliminates the need to fool around with adjustment pots which is not something I would want to do without access to a dyno and proper instrumentation. I guess you could get reasonably close by setting the Techlusion to recommend settings with an accurate voltmeter... but I prefer that readout on my laptop that says 13:8:1.

 

Another interesting curiosity is the difference in the closed-loop area on the maps for the 1100 vs. the 1150 bikes. Perhaps the differences between Motronic 2.2 and 2.4 are greater than we might think.

[powerman]

My own experimentation (playing with the settings in the closed loop area of the map and not finding any resultant changes in the A/F ratio) would seem to support your statement that this area is not intended to be tweaked.

Does "not intended" mean that you can't or if you do, it won't do a thing or they don't recomend that any changes be done there for enviromental reasons? I would assume that the power commander can pretty much overided the motronic. From past discussions the motronic is pretty slow to respond and that the power comander could easilly re-correct for any changes that the motronic tries to make.

[smiller]

Does "not intended" mean that you can't or if you do, it won't do a thing or they don't recomend that any changes be done there for enviromental reasons?

What I meant by my comment is that I tried an experiment where I set the cells in a section of the closed-loop area of a map to a very lean value and checked to see whether the A/F ratio leaned out in this area (with the bike on the centerstand.) I saw no change, leading me to believe that entires in this area have no effect. I called the Dynojet tech support people this morning to try to get some confirmation, and their response was that the wideband O2 sensors respond much more quickly than previous technology and are very good at holding a specific A/F ratio, thus there is no need to play with closed-loop operation and that it should be a 'set it (to your desired overall A/F ratio) and forget it' operation... that's the whole point of it being closed loop. But... that doesn't explain why some of the Dynojet-supplied maps have entries in the closed loop area, which certainly implies that these entries must have some effect. That last concept stumped everyone I spoke to and I was finally transferred to someone in R&D for a straight answer. I left a message and hopefully I will get a response.

 

I would assume that the power commander can pretty much overrided the motronic.

The Power Commander intercepts the Motronic injector pulses and increases or decreases the duty cycle as necessary to achieve an objective A/F ratio. In closed-loop mode the Power Commander does pretty much take over control but in open-loop mode the Motronic does have some input into the equation based on engine temp, air temperature & pressure, etc. For example, when the system is in open loop the Power Commander may be set to increase the Motronic pulse width by some amount at a given combination of engine rpm and throttle position to achieve a desired A/F ratio. However, if the bike happens to be at high altitude, or the air temp or engine is cold, etc., the Motronic will make adjustments and the Power Commander will be acting on that change, so the Motronic does still have input when the system is in open loop. In closed loop the Holy Grail is a specific A/F ratio and in this mode the Power Commander is pretty much in complete control.

[tom collins]

i must compliment you on your thorough knowledge of this product, they should enlist you to teach seminars at rallys for them.

 

tom collins

[Chip]

Seth:

This is a very cool discussion.

 

Could you explain the open loop vs. closed loop operation that you're talking about? I have a feeling that knowing what those terms mean would significantly improve my understanding of this thread.

[smiller]

Hi Jay,

 

In 'open-loop' operation a fuel injection system supplies fuel based on a pre-programmed set of parameters (usually referred to as a 'map') that determines how much fuel to supply at any given combination of engine rpm and load. The instructions in this map are also modified based on input from other sensors (i.e. the mixture will be further enriched when the engine or the intake air temperature is cold, etc.) but beyond this the system works in the blind and there is no mechanism to ensure that the amount of fuel being supplied is really precisely correct. In a closed-loop system an oxygen sensor is placed in the exhaust stream and used to determine the actual operating A/F ratio at a given point in time. This information is in turn used by the ECU to further tune the fuel mixture in a continuous feedback loop to a precise specification. A modern fuel injected engine usually makes use of both open and closed-loop modes of operation depending on which is best for a given operating condition (closed-loop usually being used for cruise operation and open-loop for either very low speeds or at open-throttle.)

 

The reason people tend to mess with this stuff in the aftermarket is that emissions requirements dictate that gasoline engines be run at rather lean fuel calibrations that are good for emissions and economy but are not necessarily optimum for maximum driveability and performance. Manufacturers generally do a very good job with modern vehicles in obtaining good economy and low emissions without too much of a performance hit, but some types of engine configurations are more sensitive than others to being run on the lean edge and unfortunately large-displacement twins are one of them, hence the very common driveability issues associated with oilheads. BMW has made attempts at several cures but the one thing that they really needed to do - simply richen up the mixture a bit - was off the table to due the need to support a catalytic converter. And as a result aftermarket devices (such as The Power Commander and Techlusion) have become available that perform this function outside of the BMW ECU.

 

There is a lot of additional information to look at for anyone interested in this topic and I'm far from being enough of an expert to be a good instructor. There are many sources of additional info on the Internet, beginning wwith Wikipedia's excellent discussion.

[Chip]

...BMW has made attempts at several cures but the one thing that they really needed to do - simply richen up the mixture a bit - was off the table to due the need to support a catalytic converter. And as a result aftermarket devices (such as The Power Commander and Techlusion) have become available that perform this function outside of the BMW ECU...

 

Seth:

Many thanks for the explanation. I don't want to get into any emission debate (wrong thread and it doesn't help understanding of this stuff) but I do have a couple more questions.

 

You mentioned, "...support the catalytic converter.." Does this mean that the catalytic converter (cc) should be removed before using the Power Commander or do you mean that the cc won't operate as effectively/efficiently as the a/f ratio decreases (i.e., becomes richer)?

 

I assume ECU means environmental control unit. Correct?

[smiller]

You mentioned, "...support the catalytic converter.." Does this mean that the catalytic converter should be removed before using the Power Commander or do you mean that the cc won't operate as effectively/efficiently as the a/f ratio decreases (i.e., becomes richer)?

I mean the latter in that the cat won't operate efficiently at mixtures much richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1), which is the reason why that is the design A/F ratio of most stock FI systems. A catalytic converter can be an amazingly effective device under optimum conditions but efficiency falls off very rapidly as you richen the mixture. Straying a little (key word is a little) richer than 14.7:1 probably won't harm the converter but unfortunately it will cause HC and CO emissions to spike.

 

I assume ECU means environmental control unit. Correct?

Engine Control Unit, just a generic name for the computer that controls the fuel injection system.

[Chip]

Seth,

Thanks again for the excellent explanations. Very much appreciated!

[Tschamp]

Now that you have it all set up, can you send it to me, so I can try it out?

What's the usual cost to have one of these installed?

[smiller]

What's the usual cost to have one of these installed?

I purchased mine used, but the street price for the Wideband Power Commander for BMW applications is around $450. Not cheap, but in my experience very effective. They are very easy to install so I don't think professional installation help is really required, unless you want to have your bike run on a dyno for fine-tuning and I don't think that there is much to be gained by doing this for a bone stock bike as the stock map supplied by Dynojet seems to work very well.

 

Also, on another topic and for anyone interested, I did receive a return call from Dynojet in response to my question concerning the effect (or lack thereof) of entries in the closed-loop area of the Power Commander map. The answer is... the Power Commander map allows entries every 250 rpm and at 0-2-5-10-20-40-60-80-100 percent throttle position. Since the bike's ECU determines exactly where the transition from open to closed-loop operation occurs sometimes that transition point may be in between two of the Power Commander set points (i.e. the open to closed-loop transition occurs at 70% throttle, between the Power Commander 60% and 80% set points.) In this case the setting in the border closed-loop cell will affect only that part of the range that the bike's ECU considers open loop, so in the example above a setting the the 60% throttle closed-loop cell will actually come into effect at 70% throttle when the ECU goes open loop. Sometimes Dynojet places entries in these closed-loop border cells in order to smooth the transition between closed and open loop operation.

 

What does this mean to the end user? Pretty much nothing, and if you find the above confusing you can just ignore it as it has little to do with real-world operation from an end user's perspective. But I was curious and had to have my answer!

[powerman]

Also, on another topic and for anyone interested, I did receive a return call from Dynojet in response to my question concerning the effect (or lack thereof) of entries in the closed-loop area of the Power Commander map. The answer is... the Power Commander map allows entries every 250 rpm and at 0-2-5-10-20-40-60-80-100 percent throttle position. Since the bike's ECU determines exactly where the transition from open to closed-loop operation occurs sometimes that transition point may be in between two of the Power Commander set points (i.e. the open to closed-loop transition occurs at 70% throttle, between the Power Commander 60% and 80% set points.) In this case the setting in the border closed-loop cell will affect only that part of the range that the bike's ECU considers open loop, so in the example above a setting the the 60% throttle closed-loop cell will actually come into effect at 70% throttle when the ECU goes open loop. Sometimes Dynojet places entries in these closed-loop border cells in order to smooth the transition between closed and open loop operation.

 

What does this mean to the end user? Pretty much nothing, and if you find the above confusing you can just ignore it as it has little to do with real-world operation from an end user's perspective. But I was curious and had to have my answer!

i guess your saying the the power comander cannot affect the fueling when the bikes motronic is in it's closed loop mode, which is most of the time. I think there is more to this. I would expect that some control could be had since the power comander provides input to the motronic via the motronics original oxegen sensor input, maybe there isn't enough control range.

Since you had it for a little while now, how is the smoothness for small throttle opennings. I'm hoping it fixes the small openings to smooth out my cornering

[smiller]

i guess your saying the the power comander cannot affect the fueling when the bikes motronic is in it's closed loop mode, which is most of the time. I think there is more to this. I would expect that some control could be had since the power comander provides input to the motronic via the motronics original oxegen sensor input, maybe there isn't enough control range.

Since you had it for a little while now, how is the smoothness for small throttle opennings. I'm hoping it fixes the small openings to smooth out my cornering

Yes, I'm sure that it would be possible to further modify closed-loop mixture based on rpm/throttle position if the unit was designed that way, but apparently it's not, or so say the Dynojet tech people. Their position is that wideband sensors provide accurate enough fuel control that it's not particularly desirable to be messing around with closed-loop operation, better to just set it to the overall A/F ratio you want and let the computer do the rest... which is the way that most ECUs work. In any event it seems to work just fine and I don't really feel any desire to manually tune down to that low a level.

 

Regarding small throttle openings and small throttle changes... that seems to be the biggest improvement the thing has made overall. Much smoother operation in these areas and it makes the bike much more pleasant to ride around town. Really feels like a different bike (or at least a very well tuned oilhead) in that respect. I think I will take a small hit in mileage, though. My earlier estimation of an improvement was erroneous (due to a silly mistake on my part) and I think in reality that mileage is going to be worse by a small amount. Since I am adding approx. 5% more fuel than stock I guess in theory my mileage should drop by that amount. In practice it seems to be somewhat less that that but I think I may have lost a mpg or two... but need to go through some more tanks to be sure. The performance difference is well worth it to me in any event.

[smiller]

One final note on mileage after several tanks... looks like in the end mileage is essentially unchanged, or at least any change is less than my ability to casually measure. My initial impression of lower mileage in the above post (based mostly on my first tankful) was flawed I think because I didn't take into consideration the amount of time I was running at low speed/high rpm (to try to see if I could still induce surging) or my running the bike on the centerstand for a while doing other tests, etc., which seemed to give me an artificially low mileage on that tank. Subsequently under normal commute conditions though I'm just not seeing any significant difference. I suppose I should be seeing somewhat lower mileage and I don't know why I'm not, could be some increased combustion efficiency by the richer mixture is offsetting the extra fuel being used, or that my old O2 sensor was simply in bad shape causing artificially poor mileage before the PC install, or any combination of those two... can't really say for sure I guess. But of course... and quite literally in this case... YMMV.

[Al Navecky Jr]

What's the usual cost to have one of these installed?

I purchased mine used, but the street price for the Wideband Power Commander for BMW applications is around $450. Not cheap, but in my experience very effective.

 

I just order one from TNT Perormance Dyno for $409 including free "2-4 Priority Mail" shipping. I hope to have it installed this weekend.

[legrena]

Thank you for an awesome thread. I will have to post up the results of my own installation once it's completed. Bike's been at the shop since June 7th!!!

[DEF]

Chips?...a waste of money.

 

Just perform a good tuneup......same results.

[Al Navecky Jr]

 

I just order one from TNT Perormance Dyno for $409 including free "2-4 Priority Mail" shipping. I hope to have it installed this weekend.

 

Got mine installed. Found it easer to remove the muffler\cat to install the “O” sensor. You only need to remove the clamp at the header pipe and the hanger for the muffler. Then you have all the room in the world change out the “O” sensor. My RT did not have the muffler\cat bolted at the center stand as it said in the Clinton manual.

 

The bike runs GREAT. The only problem now is it is HARD to start. Hope to work on it this weekend.

 

As anyone tries programming the PC with a Palm?

[Al Navecky Jr]

Chips?...a waste of money.

 

Just perform a good tuneup......same results.

 

I am a computer geek and if I can plug my laptop into it I get a major rush. Going to borrow my sons Palm to see if I read the air\fuel in real time on the road.

[DEF]

Chips?...a waste of money.

 

Just perform a good tuneup......same results.

 

I am a computer geek and if I can plug my laptop into it I get a major rush. Going to borrow my sons Palm to see if I read the air\fuel in real time on the road.

 

Wait a minute now...that sounds nifty....actual on-the-road tuning while talking on your cell phone.............seems to me I screamed at some woman this morning for something similar.

 

Let us know how it comes out.........

[smiller]

The bike runs GREAT. The only problem now is it is HARD to start.

I also noted a slight difference in starting habit that may have been related to the installation of the PC. When cold it seems to take a few more revolutions before the engine will start. I think that is different from before and wasn't really sure that I could relate it to the PC, but I'll mention it since you did. In my case the cold-start difference is minor and doesn't create any issue for me, and the engine always starts instantly when warm so it's been easy to just ignore it. In your case is the change problematical?

[Al Navecky Jr]

The bike runs GREAT. The only problem now is it is HARD to start.

I also noted a slight difference in starting habit that may have been related to the installation of the PC. When cold it seems to take a few more revolutions before the engine will start. I think that is different from before and wasn't really sure that I could relate it to the PC, but I'll mention it since you did. In my case the cold-start difference is minor and doesn't create any issue for me, and the engine always starts instantly when warm so it's been easy to just ignore it. In your case is the change problematical?

Yes there time i think it will not start. Hot i some times i need to give it a little bit of gas to start.

[Al Navecky Jr]

 

I am a computer geek and if I can plug my laptop into it I get a major rush. Going to borrow my sons Palm to see if I read the air\fuel in real time on the road.

 

Wait a minute now...that sounds nifty....actual on-the-road tuning while talking on your cell phone.............seems to me I screamed at some woman this morning for something similar.

 

Let us know how it comes out.........

After checking PC's web site the Palm will only send maps to the unit. It will not give real time air\fuel readings . Guess I did to find a way to strap my laptop to the tank bag.

[smiller]

Yes there time i think it will not start. Hot i some times i need to give it a little bit of gas to start.

Well, something wrong then. Have you tried disconnecting the PC to see if the problem goes away? If so give the PC Tech Support line a call... I found them to be pretty helpful with my questions. Let us know what you find out.