02 R1150R Transmission & clutch questions

[jeffyjeff]

02 R1150R,  38389 miles.   18,000 of those miles are mine, I do not know the history of the bike before it came into my possession.  I pulled the transmission this weekend  because 1) I have never done a spline lube, 2) I'm a little freaked out about reports of shredded input shaft/clutch splines, and 3) there is a little weeping at the engine-transmission interface near the timing inspection hole.  Between my Clymer manual and the Chris Harris R1100RT video, the transmission removal was uneventful.  My only comment involves the routing of the O2 sensor and Neutral switch wires.  Jeez, it took an hour to extract the Neutral switch wire, it was buried so tightly.  Hard parts had to be loosened and pried apart to fish the connector out. Once I got the subframe lifted, the transmission came out super easy...like it practically fell out on its own.

 

Splines are bone dry, I'm glad I did this now.  A friend gave me some Honda Moly left over from his project, so that's what is going in.

Transmission input shaft splines show discernable wear, a small scallop about halfway down the length of the spline; still usable in my opinion.  

The weeping appears to be from the transmission input shaft seal; the crankshaft rear main seal is dry.

Upon removal, the clutch slave cylinder was full of muck.  Although it showed no symptoms prior to disassembly, it will be replaced.

 

My questions:

1. I am considering installation of a +6mm spline clutch disc, available from Ted Porter and EME.  Does anyone here have any experience and recommendation , one way or the other?

2.  Looks like I need a new transmission input shaft seal.  What is the recommended removal method?  Can I punch a small hole and use a sheet metal screw and a slide hammer to work it out?  Is there a counterbore behind the seal that might be damaged if I use that method?

3. Upon assembly, I'm probably going to reroute the aforementioned wires to facilitate future transmission removal.  Any comments on that idea?

 

Thanks for reading this.  Hope everyone has a happy new year in 2021.  Rubber side down.

Good day,   Jeff  J.

 

 

[Jim Moore]

That's a little bit of a strange one, IMO. Your clutch splines are worn almost through, but your input shaft splines are barely worn. I would have expected to see a lot more wear on the shaft. I'm not sure if it means anything, it's just a little odd.

 

You def need a new clutch. I've heard good things about the extended hub, although I've never used one myself.  

 

If you plan to keep the bike I think you need to do something about the input shaft. Realize the transmission is bad. As soon as you reinstall it the splines will start to wear again. A new input shaft + an extended hub might push the failure so far into the future that it becomes immaterial, but it's hard to say. If it was my bike I'd be shopping on Ebay for a known-good used transmission. That's the only way to truly fix it.

 

Finally, I'm sorry this happened to you. This little fiasco has REALLY turned me off the brand. 

[jeffyjeff]

4 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

If you plan to keep the bike I think you need to do something about the input shaft. Realize the transmission is bad. As soon as you reinstall it the splines will start to wear again. A new input shaft + an extended hub might push the failure so far into the future that it becomes immaterial, but it's hard to say. If it was my bike I'd be shopping on Ebay for a known-good used transmission. That's the only way to truly fix it.

 

Finally, I'm sorry this happened to you. This little fiasco has REALLY turned me off the brand. 

 

Jim, Thanks for your comment.  It's really easy to get emotional over this design flaw, and I don't understand why BMW chose to let this continue throughout the entire run of oilhead production.  But there are cost-effective solutions available.  Why discard the whole transmission when a new input shaft is available for $300?  The extended spline clutch disc is a good interim fix until the input shaft finally craps out.  My bike is only worth $2500.  By now, it's utility value to me is worth more than what I could get for it if I tried to sell.  Therefore, when the time comes, I'll choose to open up the transmission and fit a new input shaft;  I'm not going to let the genie out of the gearbox by doing that.

 

Anyway, I hope that your comment about "pushing the failure so far into the future that it becomes immaterial" holds true.  In fact, that's what I'm banking on.

Thanks again.  Ride safe.    Jeff J.

[Jim Moore]

2 hours ago, jeffyjeff said:

 

Jim, Thanks for your comment.  It's really easy to get emotional over this design flaw, and I don't understand why BMW chose to let this continue throughout the entire run of oilhead production.  But there are cost-effective solutions available.  Why discard the whole transmission when a new input shaft is available for $300?  The extended spline clutch disc is a good interim fix until the input shaft finally craps out.  My bike is only worth $2500.  By now, it's utility value to me is worth more than what I could get for it if I tried to sell.  Therefore, when the time comes, I'll choose to open up the transmission and fit a new input shaft;  I'm not going to let the genie out of the gearbox by doing that.

 

Anyway, I hope that your comment about "pushing the failure so far into the future that it becomes immaterial" holds true.  In fact, that's what I'm banking on.

Thanks again.  Ride safe.    Jeff J.

In my mind there are a few reasons to consider a used transmission. First, opening that case is no simple trick. I've done a bunch of them (5-speeds). Lots of things can go wrong. 

 

The seals are gonna cost you almost $100.

 

And when you're done, it's still not fixed. It may last forever, but it's always in there, slowly eating away at the splines. Pisses me off just thinking about it.

 

A used one will cost $300-$500. You can ask for detailed pics of the input shaft. If it's good, you can be reasonable sure it's good.

 

There are really no good options. Good luck whatever you decide. 

[The Fabricator]

I think the clutch disc with longer hubs are the only ones available now.  

From the picture of the transmission shaft, I don't really see any oil.  There is dirt [clutch friction plate dust] stuck to some grease or oil, but I don't see evidence of a 'flow path' from the oil.  I would guess it isn't actually leaking.  Probably the grease or oil the dust is sticking to is from assembly lube and/or lube that squirted out of the clutch/shaft interface over time.  What I am getting at is the seal is probably ok.  I don't  know if the seal comes out from the outside or the inside.  But my experience with seal installation is a certain percentage of seal installations fail due to damaging the new seal.  Seeing as how the seal is so deep in the motorcycle,...........

 

Not sure if new shafts are actually available.  I read it somewhere.  You might call a parts guy and ask.  If it is, you might buy it now and put it on the shelf, run a new clutch and wait for it fail.  You probably could see the new shaft later, as they are in demand by a small segment of the community.

 

I have installed  a new shaft in a transmission.  Not too hard.

[spacewrench]

It's time to replace your clutch disk, but your input shaft doesn't look that bad.  The 6mm-longer clutch hub will move the aft pressure point back past the current scallops on the input shaft splines, so that should help.

 

I don't think you really need to replace that input shaft just because of the oily dirt around that seal...I'd clean it up and maybe run it for another 5-10k miles, see how it goes.

 

I recently replaced my clutch & input shaft on a 2000 R1100S (see my various posts about it).  I used an aftermarket input shaft made by GSAddict and the extended-hub clutch from Beemer Boneyard.  It was expensive, and the whole thing was a big, messy, expensive job (and my clutch slave cylinder died about a month after that, dammit!) but I'm hoping that part of the bike will be solid for many miles to come.  (Now I'm starting to have ignition stumbles, which make me suspect the HES wiring.  Grrr, yet another thing to tear down and replace.  The fun never ends.)

[jeffyjeff]

12 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

...And when you're done, it's still not fixed. It may last forever, but it's always in there, slowly eating away at the splines. Pisses me off just thinking about it.

Why do you suppose that is?  Could it be a design flaw?  Inferior materials?  Substandard manufacturing process?  Perhaps a combination of these possibilities?  BMW knew that the clutch & input shaft splines did not fully engage, yet they did nothing to correct the problem over the 11 year production run of the oil heads.  Shameful.  I tend to believe Chris Harris' theory that spline wear is exacerbated by riding at slower speeds in sixth gear.  High torque, low frequency power pulses are applied through the clutch disc to hammer on the splines until they eventually wear through.  Harris claims that by only shifting into sixth at high speed, the power pulses are lower torque and higher frequency, and that the splines remain loaded, resulting in less wear.  I've made it a habit to delay my shift into sixth until 4500 rpm or above; normally I'm going 75mph or faster when in sixth gear.  I think that may have helped preserve the input shaft splines.

 

10 hours ago, The Fabricator said:

From the picture of the transmission shaft, I don't really see any oil.  There is dirt [clutch friction plate dust] stuck to some grease or oil, but I don't see evidence of a 'flow path' from the oil. 

Not sure if new shafts are actually available. 

You are right, the inside of the clutch housing is dry. It doesn't show in the pictures, but a film of clutch dust basically coats the interior of the clutch housing.  When I first removed the flywheel, the old fluid path traces almost appeared to be leaking from the oil gallery plugs.  Not the case, though, you can see it came from the transmission side.  Hence the aforementioned weeping near the timing hole.  I ordered a new seal.  If I can get the old one out, I'll probably drive it in with a suitable piece of PVC.  New input shafts are available from Ted Porter's Beemer Shop and from Euro Moto Electric.

 

9 hours ago, spacewrench said:

The 6mm-longer clutch hub will move the aft pressure point back past the current scallops on the input shaft splines, so that should help.

I don't think you really need to replace that input shaft just because of the oily dirt around that seal...I'd clean it up and maybe run it for another 5-10k miles, see how it goes.

I agree.  The input shaft splines look plenty robust for continued service.  The longer clutch splines and Honda Moly paste should help to curb the shaft spline rate of wear.  Right now, I'm only averaging about 500 miles a month on the bike. At that rate,  it won't be due for a spline lube for at least another 6 years.  My intention is to clean it up, install a new seal, and run it another 40,000 miles.

 

Thanks to all for sharing your experience and expertise.

 

[Jim Moore]

I'm not in love with Mr Harris's theory on that. I had one go bad on me that I rode like a complete jackass. Literally red-line shifts every chance I got. I think it's due to a misalignment between the engine and transmission. Something off center in the lid of the transmission? Holes drilled off-center? I don't know. I heard a theory once that the bikes at the bottom of the stack got bent during shipping. Apparently that happened long ago to a batch of K75s.

[AndyS]

4 hours ago, jeffyjeff said:

Why do you suppose that is?  Could it be a design flaw?  Inferior materials?  Substandard manufacturing process?  Perhaps a combination of these possibilities?  BMW knew that the clutch & input shaft splines did not fully engage, yet they did nothing to correct the problem over the 11 year production run of the oil heads.  Shameful.  I tend to believe Chris Harris' theory that spline wear is exacerbated by riding at slower speeds in sixth gear.  High torque, low frequency power pulses are applied through the clutch disc to hammer on the splines until they eventually wear through.  Harris claims that by only shifting into sixth at high speed, the power pulses are lower torque and higher frequency, and that the splines remain loaded, resulting in less wear.  I've made it a habit to delay my shift into sixth until 4500 rpm or above; normally I'm going 75mph or faster when in sixth gear.  I think that may have helped preserve the input shaft splines.

 

 

 

There is lots of speculation on the reasons why. A quick search of this forum alone will uncover reams of theories. However, we do know that 2002 was one of the worst years for doing it. We also know that 'lugging' the engine doesn't actually 'cause' it because many of us on this forum are 'luggers' and it issue hasn't occurred on our high mileage beasts.  My very high mileage 2003 was nearly always put into 6th gear as soon as the bike could pull the gear smoothly.

 

[jeffyjeff]

Oddly, since day 2 of my ownership (did not notice on my test ride), there has been a perceptible "double engagement" of the clutch.  I call it "clutch bump"; noticeable in first gear when just getting underway at around 2-5 mph.  It is more pronounced when the engine/transmission is cold, almost like the clutch engages in two stages.  It's not a glaring phenomenon,  but perceptible, and with deliberate clutch action I can bounce it off the second stage without completely disengaging the clutch.   It will be interesting to see if this phenomenon disappears once the clutch is repaired.

[9Mary7]

My .02....... I would have no concerns about putting in a new clutch disc and riding the crap out of it. I'm of the opinion that the more robust disc engages the splines as they should have from the factory. It has solved the problem for me in the past, bike's still being ridden years later AFAIK .......

[dave_a]

Given all the spline wear on the clutch, I can envision the disc having issues with smooth engagement. Getting a bit cocked and refusing to slide.

I tend to agree with 9Mary7 that a new disc with longer splines, Honda grease,  and run her till she blows. But I really don't know what I'm talking about since my 99 is still ok and functioning normally.

[fatbob]

Jeff:

I recently replaced the whole clutch pack on my ‘03 RT.    My input shaft looked like yours (not bad, 53K).   The new clutch was a long spline one from Beemer Boneyard.  It took quite a while to wear the long clutch splines into the input shaft.   Starts could be kind of shuddery until it broke in.   Mr Figielsky at BBY assured me it would break in and it did after 2K miles of mostly highways.   
 

I wouldn’t hesitate to do the same on your bike.   However replace the trans seals while you are in there.   And definitely replace your clutch slave cylinder!   They all leak eventually and that’s what trashed my clutch.    
 

good wrenching! 
 

Bob

 

[jeffyjeff]

Thanks all.  Parts are scheduled to come in on Friday, including a new extended spline clutch disc, slave cylinder, input shaft seal and some other stuff.

I thought I would share a little trick from my Detroit Diesel days.  On assembly I used to lock the engine this way when tightening down the flywheel bolts.  Chris Harris kind of skipped over this part in his R1100RT video, and I did not find this method during a brief internet search.  Two bolts and a combination wrench will lock up the flywheel so you can install and torque the five flywheel bolts.  

 

PS.  Thanks fatbob.  If I experience some shudder when this job is finished, I'll attribute it to the new splines bedding in.

 

[Jim Moore]

Hey, that's pretty cool!

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, jeffyjeff said:

Thanks all.  Parts are scheduled to come in on Friday, including a new extended spline clutch disc, slave cylinder, input shaft seal and some other stuff.

I thought I would share a little trick from my Detroit Diesel days.  On assembly I used to lock the engine this way when tightening down the flywheel bolts.  Chris Harris kind of skipped over this part in his R1100RT video, and I did not find this method during a brief internet search.  Two bolts and a combination wrench will lock up the flywheel so you can install and torque the five flywheel bolts.  

 

PS.  Thanks fatbob.  If I experience some shudder when this job is finished, I'll attribute it to the new splines bedding in.

 

Morning  jeffyjeff

 

The BMW service manual calls for replacing the clutch housing (flywheel) bolts & replacing the housing cover (outer pressure plate) bolts at each removal (they are both  a one usage bolt).  

 

Did you mark the clutch housing parts for clocking before removal? (should have).  If you didn't mark the parts see if you can find the paint marks as they go 120° apart at reassembly to retain engine balance. 

 

[jeffyjeff]

Thanks for responding, DR.  I was hoping you'd weigh in. 

My flywheel is indexed to the crankshaft, and I marked all the parts on disassembly.  Unfortunately, my pressure plate mark rubbed off, so I have a 1/3 chance of getting it right.  I got new flywheel bolts, clutch cover bolts, and a new slave cylinder and gasket on the way, as well as a new clutch rod felt, alignment mandrel, input shaft seal and aftermarket +6mm clutch plate. I have 2 questions you might have an opinion on.

• What is the best way to extract the old input shaft seal without damaging the transmission?
• Do you think I'll run into problems if I try to creatively re-route the neutral switch wire for easier removal next time around?  I intend to lube the clutch splines at 80,000 miles.

Have a great day.   Jeff J

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, jeffyjeff said:

Thanks for responding, DR.  I was hoping you'd weigh in. 

My flywheel is indexed to the crankshaft, and I marked all the parts on disassembly.  Unfortunately, my pressure plate mark rubbed off, so I have a 1/3 chance of getting it right.  I got new flywheel bolts, clutch cover bolts, and a new slave cylinder and gasket on the way, as well as a new clutch rod felt, alignment mandrel, input shaft seal and aftermarket +6mm clutch plate. I have 2 questions you might have an opinion on.

• What is the best way to extract the old input shaft seal without damaging the transmission?
• Do you think I'll run into problems if I try to creatively re-route the neutral switch wire for easier removal next time around?  I intend to lube the clutch splines at 80,000 miles.

Morning Jeff

 

What is the best way to extract the old input shaft seal without damaging the transmission?-- Best way is to remove the trans front cover as that is the safest way. You can drill your seal outer ring then use screws but keep in mind there is a sealed bearing just behind the seal so don't drill or run a screw into that. The only problem will be IF you can't get that seal out, then you might have to remove the trans front cover.  Just be very careful that you don't score front cover hole.

 

Measure the existing seal's installed depth so you don't drive the new seal in too far.

 

That seal doesn't look like it was leaking so why tempt the devil?

 

 

Do you think I'll run into problems if I try to creatively re-route the neutral switch wire for easier removal next time around?-- Probably, if you can do it safely & securely without  putting it in harms way. (personally I route them as BMW intended as they seem to live a long & trouble free life with that secure routing). 

 

I intend to lube the clutch splines at 80,000 miles.-- Probably useless as far as extending spline life goes, with the clutch disk hub wear & input shaft wear  that I see in your picture you have a trans to engine alignment issue. That causes the spline joint to operate as a 1:1 gear set (tooth contact never changes in a 1:1)  not as a simple spline joint so not only do you get that orbital tooth contact wear but that quickly removes any lube from the sliding tooth contact points. 

 

What you do gain with a future spline lube is not the lubricating part but the inspection part, but this is offset with the great possibility of not re-assembling in the EXACT same  clutch disk to spline shaft clocking (that spline joint won't wear evenly on all mating points so re-assembling in a different clocking will cause a new wear-in with some accelerated wear. 

 

Your present clutch disk is real close to total failure so my suggestion is to slide your worn clutch disk back on the input shaft (try to match the step in the disk splines to the front of the input shaft), then measure the disk rotation movement on the input shaft at the clutch disk's outer rim. (write that number down) 

 

THIS is your new pre-failure point, then every so often just remove your starter, zip tie the clutch lever to the grip,  then use a pointed wire or scribe to lightly rotate the disk & see how your rotational wear is progressing. 

 

Just keep in mind that even with a longer disk hub your disk spline to shaft spline contact will ONLY be on the spline ends as the shaft center spline area is concave so there will be no driving contact in that area. 

 

You don't know the motorcycle history so IF (big if here) you still have the original factory clutch parts then with a NEW input shaft & new clutch disk you can expect about the same mileage to next failure. With your fairly worn input shaft & the existing alignment problem you will get significantly less mileage to next failure. Now the new longer disk hub might extend that  little, or might not (depends on a number of off-setting  factors).

 

The BIG kicker here is that "writing" on the rear of your engine,  if you didn't put that there then a possibly someone has been into it before. That would probably put your first spline failure close to the 20,000 mile mark, re-failure close to the 40,00 mile mark (probably even less as you are now starting with a fairly worn input shaft).   

 

 

 

[jeffyjeff]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Your present clutch disk is real close to total failure so my suggestion is to slide your worn clutch disk back on the input shaft (try to match the step in the disk splines to the front of the input shaft), then measure the disk rotation movement on the input shaft at the clutch disk's outer rim. (write that number down)  Already did that, the rotational movement was quite alarming, approximately 5mm or more.  I'll do it again and try to measure more precisely, but for sure it was quite a bit.  EDIT:  7.67 mm

 

You don't know the motorcycle history so IF (big if here) you still have the original factory clutch parts then with a NEW input shaft & new clutch disk you can expect about the same mileage to next failure. With your fairly worn input shaft & the existing alignment problem you will get significantly less mileage to next failure. Now the new longer disk hub might extend that  little, or might not (depends on a number of off-setting  factors).   I'm hoping that these are original parts.  In the photo below, does the circled code indicate a manufacture date, or does that indicate something else?  I've had the bike since 20,000 miles myself.  The PO only owned the bike for 6 months/600 miles.  Normally this would be a deal killer for me, but a reputable BMW specialist inspected it and assuaged my fears.  The license plate frame was from "dubbleju SF", a local firm engaged in motorcycle rental.  So I have some reason to suspect that at some point, my BMW was a rental bike.

 

The BIG kicker here is that "writing" on the rear of your engine,  if you didn't put that there then a possibly someone has been into it before. That would probably put your first spline failure close to the 20,000 mile mark, re-failure close to the 40,00 mile mark (probably even less as you are now starting with a fairly worn input shaft).   That writing is not mine.  Really hope no one has been into it before. I did not see evidence of any previous disassembly.  The swingarm bearing and final drive pivot pins had the locktite on them, and had to be heated for removal.  No scratches, index marks, or other paint/ink on the flywheel or any of the rotating clutch parts. The clutch disc is not aftermarket.

 

Thanks for your tip on establishing a baseline measurement for clutch spline wear; and for your insight on the cause of the condition.  Your explanation is consistent with the observed "scallop" on the transmission input splines.   I guess I should be happy that most of the wear occurred on the clutch hub. 

Thanks again,  Jeff J.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by jeffyjeff
updated clutch radial movement

[dirtrider]

48 minutes ago, jeffyjeff said:

Your present clutch disk is real close to total failure so my suggestion is to slide your worn clutch disk back on the input shaft (try to match the step in the disk splines to the front of the input shaft), then measure the disk rotation movement on the input shaft at the clutch disk's outer rim. (write that number down)  Already did that, the rotational movement was quite alarming, approximately 5mm or more.  I'll do it again and try to measure more precisely, but for sure it was quite a bit.  EDIT:  7.67 mm

 

You don't know the motorcycle history so IF (big if here) you still have the original factory clutch parts then with a NEW input shaft & new clutch disk you can expect about the same mileage to next failure. With your fairly worn input shaft & the existing alignment problem you will get significantly less mileage to next failure. Now the new longer disk hub might extend that  little, or might not (depends on a number of off-setting  factors).   I'm hoping that these are original parts.  In the photo below, does the circled code indicate a manufacture date, or does that indicate something else?  I've had the bike since 20,000 miles myself.  The PO only owned the bike for 6 months/600 miles.  Normally this would be a deal killer for me, but a reputable BMW specialist inspected it and assuaged my fears.  The license plate frame was from "dubbleju SF", a local firm engaged in motorcycle rental.  So I have some reason to suspect that at some point, my BMW was a rental bike.

 

The BIG kicker here is that "writing" on the rear of your engine,  if you didn't put that there then a possibly someone has been into it before. That would probably put your first spline failure close to the 20,000 mile mark, re-failure close to the 40,00 mile mark (probably even less as you are now starting with a fairly worn input shaft).   That writing is not mine.  Really hope no one has been into it before. I did not see evidence of any previous disassembly.  The swingarm bearing and final drive pivot pins had the locktite on them, and had to be heated for removal.  No scratches, index marks, or other paint/ink on the flywheel or any of the rotating clutch parts. The clutch disc is not aftermarket.

 

Thanks for your tip on establishing a baseline measurement for clutch spline wear; and for your insight on the cause of the condition.  Your explanation is consistent with the observed "scallop" on the transmission input splines.   I guess I should be happy that most of the wear occurred on the clutch hub. 

Thanks again,  Jeff J.

 

Afternoon Jeff

 

I have some clutch service bulletins on the old 1100/1150 oilhead clutch plates but nothing that will give us a clue on what you have. 

 

The clutch disk that you have now has been superseded by a new disk so we can't even match them up. 

 

That 9/01 could tell you something but might also mislead-- That could be a date-stamp  but that doesn't tell if it was an original disk with a date code of 9/01 or if it was a replacement disk with a 9/01 build or origin date, or if that is actually IS  a date stamp.

 

You might try calling BeemerBoneyard as possibly they can shed some light on that clutch plate date. 

 

If it had a repair & it was a dealer done repair then it would have factory looking lock-tite on the pivot bolts if repaired correctly.  

 

Look real  closely at the transmission front cover bolt heads, if it had a dealer done stripped spline repair they would probably have installed a new input shaft. 

 

 

 

 

[jeffyjeff]

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Look real  closely at the transmission front cover bolt heads, if it had a dealer done stripped spline repair they would probably have installed a new input shaft. 

Oh noooooooooo!   Mr. Bill!!!

All of the front cover bolts look like this.  No tool marks, but the corners of the bolts look suspiciously rounded to me.  Gives me a queasy feeling.     Also, many of the bolts have some sort of green thread lock or sealer under the bolt head.

 

At the risk of asking you for the umpteenth time,

• Do you know if the cause of the misalignment is on the engine or transmission side?
• Is it possible a used transmission could cure this issue once and for all?
• If that is so, is it possible to replace the transmission front  cover to attain proper alignment?

In all likelihood, the bike is going back together this weekend with this input shaft and a new clutch disc.  I intend to keep an eye on the spline wear by monitoring clutch plate radial play as the miles accumulate.  If there is a known affordable cure for this condition (considering the value of the bike), I will seriously consider it.

 

Thanks so much to all for your help and comments.  Barring any new revelations, I'll update this thread once the bike is back together and on the road.

Rubber side down,

Jeff  J.

 

 

[dirtrider]

29 minutes ago, jeffyjeff said:

Oh noooooooooo!   Mr. Bill!!!

All of the front cover bolts look like this.  No tool marks, but the corners of the bolts look suspiciously rounded to me.  Gives me a queasy feeling.     Also, many of the bolts have some sort of green thread lock or sealer under the bolt head.

 

At the risk of asking you for the umpteenth time,

• Do you know if the cause of the misalignment is on the engine or transmission side?
• Is it possible a used transmission could cure this issue once and for all?
• If that is so, is it possible to replace the transmission front  cover to attain proper alignment?

In all likelihood, the bike is going back together this weekend with this input shaft and a new clutch disc.  I intend to keep an eye on the spline wear by monitoring clutch plate radial play as the miles accumulate.  If there is a known affordable cure for this condition (considering the value of the bike), I will seriously consider it.

 

Thanks so much to all for your help and comments.  Barring any new revelations, I'll update this thread once the bike is back together and on the road.

Rubber side down,

Jeff  J.

 

Evening Jeff

 

Also, many of the bolts have some sort of green thread lock or sealer under the bolt head.-- That green lock-tite could very well point to a front cover removal. Sealer was used on the cover to trans case mating  but AFAIK not on the bolts (unless there was a change in assembly procedure).  But, personally, I usually seal the bolt heads to case when I install a new front cover or input shaft. 

 

At the risk of asking you for the umpteenth time,

• Do you know if the cause of the misalignment is on the engine or transmission side?-- I can't say for sure but it is more than likely the transmission as usually a known good trans will stop the spline failures. I have aligned the trans to the engine with off-set alignment dowels with success.  
•  
• Is it possible a used transmission could cure this issue once and for all?-- YES, that has cured more than one spline wear issue. BUT, it is difficult to say in ALL cases as not a lot of 1150 bikes were ridden as far after the trans swap as before the trans swap. So IF a used trans that has over 20,000 miles on it & shows no spline wear is swapped in that usually stops the spline issue (at least on the few that I am personally  aware of. 
•  
• If that is so, is it possible to replace the transmission front  cover to attain proper alignment?-- Yes, that is a possibility but I can't say for sure  that JUST swapping the front cover will stop the spline wear (personally I would still do an alignment check by sweeping the new housing's  input shaft bearing bore to the crankshaft centerline. 

In all likelihood, the bike is going back together this weekend with this input shaft and a new clutch disc.  I intend to keep an eye on the spline wear by monitoring clutch plate radial play as the miles accumulate.  If there is a known affordable cure for this condition (considering the value of the bike), I will seriously consider it.-- Lot of work & kind of fiddly but you can remove the trans front cover then bolt that back on the engine, then  sweep the bearing bore to crankshaft C/L with a dial indicator, then try to center the housing bearing bore on the crankshaft. If there is a lot of rear main bearing wear then cover alignment & housing centering is next to impossible. 

 

 

[fatbob]

My clutch splines definitely Did not look like yours Jeff.   They had little wear.   

[The Fabricator]

The clutch slave cylinders have been known to leak fluid, travel down the push rod tunnel in the input shaft and contaminate the friction plate.  Ditto oil leaking from the rear main shaft seal.  Drill a hole in the clutch slave cavity while the trans is out. Can be done while mounted; don't recommend it.

 

    

 

Or cut the gasket

 

 

 

[jeffyjeff]

2 hours ago, The Fabricator said:

The clutch slave cylinders have been known to leak fluid, travel down the push rod tunnel in the input shaft and contaminate the friction plate.  Ditto oil leaking from the rear main shaft seal.  Drill a hole in the clutch slave cavity while the trans is out. Can be done while mounted; don't recommend it.

 

Light bulb came on!  That's probably what happened to mine.  The slave cylinder cavity was full of muck, and the clutch push rod felt was saturated.  Transmission is still out.  considering drilling a weep hole.  Thank you.   Jeff J.

[jeffyjeff]

Update 01.20.21

Clutch went in without incident, in fact the whole assembly went together very easily with new flywheel and clutch cover bolts.

Installed a new input shaft seal since I had one.  Turned a sheet metal screw into the old seal back and use a pry bar to extract the seal; came out first try.  Wrapped the input shaft splines with electrical tape, smeared a little transmission fluid on, and used a deep socket to drive in the seal 5.05mm from the seal bore boss.  Next time this transmission comes out, I'll probably be fitting a new input shaft.  

 

Transmission bolted up pretty as you please, but putting the rest of the bike back together was a bit more trial-and-error (read error) than I would have preferred.  Seems the photographs I took to document disassembly were pretty much useless as reference in routing fuel lines and drain tubes.  Got the electrical wires into place without much drama.

 

Tried to ascertain clutch plate radial play as DR suggested.  Could not discern any play at all.  Tried twice, once before installing the driveline, and again after the rear wheel went on. Maybe the virgin clutch splines riding on the unused portion of the input shaft are the cause;  maybe I just do not possess the sensitivity to discern the play.  Will try again after 10,000 miles or so.

 

Bike started right up and rode away smoothly.  No shudder, and none of the "clutch bump" that I described in my Jan. 12 post.  As stated, I have owned the bike since 20,000 miles, and I noticed a perceptibly odd clutch engagement since day 2.  This gives me hope that maybe the bike has lasted this far on the original clutch.  Time will tell.

 

Oh, yeah.  Almost forgot to say that my final drive pivot bearings are shot.  Rather than take this post down that rabbit hole, I'll post anew.

 

Thanks to all for your advice and support.

Jeff  J.

[jeffyjeff]

UPDATE 01.24.21

I was able to take the bike out for 160 miles over the last two days. 

• At about the 120 mile mark, I began to notice shudder on take off that fatbob posted earlier.  It's not overly objectionable, and it's not consistant, but I've definately experienced it.  I'd say that I notice it about 20% of the time, and mostly when the bike is at operating temperature.  Hopefully the condition will fade as the clutch breaks in.  I've installed clutches in cars, pickup trucks, and multiplate clutches in motorcycles, and never experienced anything like this.  Can't get the image out of my head that the input shaft is augering out the clutch splines (like an old school orange juicer working on a fat navel orange) as I motor down the road.  Hoping for a good break-in and consistently smooth clutch action in the future.
• Definately notice that the transmission no longer "ka-chunks" when engaging first from neutral; cold or hot.  It snicks into gear smooth as can be.  Reminds me of a Honda now.
• No noticable increase in vibrations at speed.

Rain forecast for the coming week in my area, so might delay continued break in for awhile.  Glad to get in a couple of good rides in this weekend.

Thanks again to all; rubber side down.     Jeff  J.

[fatbob]

Jeff:

My experience with shudder on takeoff was just like yours.    When the bike was cold the launch was smooth, when she was warm she shuddered.    It quit after a couple thousand miles, always smooth now.     Best of luck to you!   

[justmike]

Some good reading on the subject of input shaft/clutch hub spline wear. Preparing myself for the inevitable with a new-to-me 2002 R1150RS. After learning of this issue post-purchase, I bought my self a low mileage wrecked bike (29k.  kms.) to have around for spare parts. Upon disassembly I discovered splines that looked just like yours. Gonna use this spare engine/transmission as a test bed for checking for misalignment and repair before I pull apart my 2002.

 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/644819-r1150-trans-offset-engine-did-you-fix.html

https://advrider.com/f/threads/failed-input-shaft-splines-r1150gs-12-800-miles.207014/