The End of Carbon Combustion Engines

[BrianM]

Two pictures taken 13 years apart

 

[BrianM]

 

This all we have, a very small rock in space. We screw this up, there is no where else to go. If you think converting to no net carbon economy is tough, finding and moving (some of us) to new home would be insurmountable.

 

I think about this when I look at my daughter (17) and wonder about her future.

[realshelby]

Two good posts Brian!

 

I don't look at today. I look at what my Son will have when he is my age. And at what comes after that. 15 years is nothing when change is coming. We can bury our head in the sand, or jump in and develop new technologies that not only fix problems we are faced with, but advance society with new jobs and a new direction for technology. Nothing worth doing or having comes free at first. But me thinks getting away from fossil fuels and lowering Carbon Dioxide emissions has to happen, if for no other reason than they are not infinite in supply. I have worked in the coal industry, my family is still mainly supported by the oil industry. I seen the writing on the wall with coal, and I see oil's spot on the top fading even today. I don't care what China or India or anyone else does.....The country that embraces a new energy society and can build and advance that technology ahead of the rest WILL be a force both economically and politically. 

 

I heard about the sky falling back in the 1970's when the "emission controls" were mandated on cars. Anyone want to argue that didn't lead to jobs and engines that are simply fantastic compared to what we would have continued with?

[ESokoloff]

19 minutes ago, realshelby said:

The country that embraces a new energy society and can build and advance that technology ahead of the rest WILL be a force both economically and politically. 

Isn’t that China?https://chineseclimatepolicy.energypolicy.columbia.edu/en/electric-vehicles 

(Could/SHOULD be the USA)

[John Ranalletta]

Being greener is like wanting world peace.  Everybody agrees to the principle but hardly anyone, including the US, HAS A PLAN TO ACHIEVE IT.

 

Without a coherent industrial policy that transcends administration and that balances economic impact, it's a pipe dream.   Doing some simple math using data from energy department and other sites indicates that the daily US production of steel alone requires nearly 1,600 windmills operating at peak capacity dedicated to making steel alone.  Is it possible?  Maybe, but where's the strategy and the implementation plan to guide industry?

 

That's not the reason to nothing, but in 20 years of consulting, the clients who lacked a strategic plan tended to be the weakest.  On a global scale, we lead in lacking a strategy and that will lead to piecemeal efforts that do more harm than good.  

 

(BTW, if you want to nitpick the numbers, have at it, but it doesn't change our predicament)

 

Ave short ton of steel requires 400 kilowatts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace

Tons of steel produced / wk: 1.8 million  https://www.steel.org/industry-data/

Average kilowatt output of industrial windmill / wk: 469 (operating at optimum) https://sciencing.com/much-power-wind-turbine-generate-6917667.html

[John Ranalletta]

Here's one proposal that would reduce CO2 pollutants, preserve natural resources, reduce costs and solve a frustrating problem for most:

• Eliminate 3rd class mail
• Increase first class postage to $2 (for #10 env)
• Deliver 1st class mail only once per week.
• Eliminate parcel deliveries
• Restrict deliveries to businesses and residences within 5 miles of a physical post office.

Would there be some 2nd and 3rd order effects?  Sure.  We'll need fewer postal employees.  Businesses using subsidized 3rd class rates would have to use UPS or FeDex instead.  Fewer and smaller post offices.  Postal customers' recycle bins and recycling yards would not overflow with paper made from trees that would now be saved.....

 

So, when do we do this?  It's such an obviously good idea, no one would object or would they?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

6 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

• Eliminate parcel deliveries
•  

 

How would this help?  Wouldn't this just shunt parcels to private carriers like FedEx/UPS?  

[John Ranalletta]

7 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

How would this help?  Wouldn't this just shunt parcels to private carriers like FedEx/UPS?  

 

Sure, there's an existing parallel system to do just that.  Except for pre-holidays, I'm sure they'd be happy to have the business.  Is there an address to which they will not deliver?  Our postman drives by once a day; yet, it's not unusual to see up to a dozen parcel delivery trucks in our neighborhood each day.  Several have driven past my office window this morning.

 

BTW, people who choose to live in boonies should understand the explicit costs of doing so, like getting electricity, mail, etc.  They should pay a premium to cover added costs.

[realshelby]

58 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

Being greener is like wanting world peace.  Everybody agrees to the principle but hardly anyone, including the US, HAS A PLAN TO ACHIEVE IT.

 

Nothing will happen if left up to industry to make the decisions. Doesn't make sense to spend the money it will take to make the advances. Until oil/coal/natural gas runs out or gets to a low production number that won't cover demand, that will be the source of energy if left up to the "market". 

 

So, I hate to say it will be up to government. Just like they did with the emissions laws on cars and trucks starting in earnest in the 70's, and on manufacturing plants. Many will bitch about California and it's "green" laws about many things. But the fact is that much has been learned from forcing vehicle manufacturers, and industry to comply with those standards. Either with global agreements or just national standards, it will REQUIRE laws to be passed to govern pollution. Be it CO2 or other forms. While I hesitate to empower government further, this is the path forward as far as I can figure. 

 

Again, while there was considerable bitching about it during the early period, no one can show emissions laws didn't pay for themselves many times over. What? Well, just look at the fuel consumption of the average vehicle. Easily double the mileage per gallon. On unleaded fuel. 

[John Ranalletta]

IMO, we'll not be able to make much progress w/o nukes & hydrogen fuel cells.  If the gov would incent development of fusion units....

[Bill_Walker]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:19 AM, mickeym3 said:

even locally in Savannah GA I’ll be hard pressed to find charging anywhere remotely close to where I’d prefer to kill some time while charging.

Have you checked plugshare.com?  They map all the charging sections.  I just looked up Savannah and there seen to be a fair number of charging locations.  They also have an app, of course.

[Bill_Walker]

12 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Everybody agrees to the principle but hardly anyone, including the US, HAS A PLAN TO ACHIEVE IT.

Wrong, John.  There are MANY plans to achieve it, and all of them end up creating as many jobs as they cost, but they will be different jobs.  They're all being fought tooth and nail by entrenched interests whose profits might be hurt (if blacksmiths and livery stables had had the financial clout of oil companies, I imagine adoption of the automobile would have been much slower). 

Here's one plan: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/21349200/climate-change-fossil-fuels-rewiring-america-electrify

Edited December 18, 2020 by Bill_Walker
Added link to plan

[Bill_Walker]

9 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

IMO, we'll not be able to make much progress w/o nukes & hydrogen fuel cells.  If the gov would incent development of fusion units....

We may need nukes, although storage of radioactive waste is an issue, as is cooling in a warming world (several nuke plants have had to shut down at times in recent years because their cooling water supply was too warm, and that problem is likely to get worse).  Hydrogen is only an emissions winner if it's cracked from water using renewable energy.  Most hydrogen today is produced from natural gas, resulting in significant CO2 emissions.  And fusion power, well, fusion power has been just 15 years away for about 40 years now.  There's been plenty of research, but AFAIK nobody has yet produced a net-positive-power reaction (i.e., one that puts out more power than it takes to keep it contained and going).

 

But we have the technology.  Solar, wind, hydro, battery storage, molten salt storage, pumped hydro storage, and energy efficiency improvements (many of which come from just from electrification).  What's needed is building and deploying this stuff at a World War II mobilization level.  This is an existential crisis, and we need to act like it.

[Hosstage]

9 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

Have you checked plugshare.com?  They map all the charging sections.  I just looked up Savannah and there seen to be a fair number of charging locations.  They also have an app, of course.

I think it's more about the area surrounding the charging station than actually finding it. It seems they are always located in remote areas, at the far end of a large parking lot, across a busy avenue from any amenities, some remote industrial area, rather than at a nice rest stop or convenience store. No signage to indicate its location, like a big McDonalds sign seen from the hiway, no sign on those blue interstate signs showing the businesses at the next exit. Being as remote as they are, I would think that personal safety might be an issue as well, especially for a woman, no clerks on duty or walk up traffic, not well lit like a gas station parking lot. Find it, plug in, and walk quite a distance to a store (if available) or sit in your car and wait 15 or 20 minutes minimum, usually more.

Every story I've read of someone trying to travel with an EV has mentioned more than once that an indicated charging station was not working, very hard to find, or wasn't even built yet, but will be "soon", even though the app listed it.

If the major gas stations and truck stops were smart, they would start installing charging stations to go along with their fuel pumps (sufficiently separated of course) to capture that audience.

[TEDZ]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but WWII mobilization wasn't encumbered by regulations we have today.  Doesn't mean we can't do it, just a factor in the timeline.  I agree something needs to be done regarding emissions.  I think the current electrical grid is nowhere near what will be needed to support the needed increase of needed electricity.

[mickeym3]

26 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

I think it's more about the area surrounding the charging station than actually finding it. It seems they are always located in remote areas, at the far end of a large parking lot, across a busy avenue from any amenities, some remote industrial area, rather than at a nice rest stop or convenience store. No signage to indicate its location, like a big McDonalds sign seen from the hiway, no sign on those blue interstate signs showing the businesses at the next exit. Being as remote as they are, I would think that personal safety might be an issue as well, especially for a woman, no clerks on duty or walk up traffic, not well lit like a gas station parking lot. Find it, plug in, and walk quite a distance to a store (if available) or sit in your car and wait 15 or 20 minutes minimum, usually more.

Every story I've read of someone trying to travel with an EV has mentioned more than once that an indicated charging station was not working, very hard to find, or wasn't even built yet, but will be "soon", even though the app listed it.

If the major gas stations and truck stops were smart, they would start installing charging stations to go along with their fuel pumps (sufficiently separated of course) to capture that audience.

True, and yes Bill; I have the PlugShare app and plan on using it.  With the VW ID.4 you get three years of charging "free" with Electrify America; unfortunately most of their stations are few and far between in the Southeast and almost exclusively at Walmart locations; so no thanks.  Fortunately there are companies like Publix (similar to Kroger, Albertson's, etc) that have free charging stations (usually only one stall so that will fill fast as EV's become more popular).  I'd be willing to wager that as demand goes up our kWh charges are going to go up expodentially but I'm committed to the EV, every little bit helps.

[Rougarou]

If statistics are right, I should easily be here in 2035 for the California "I told ya it wouldn't happen" and should be here in 2050 for the net zero "I told ya it wouldn't happen".  But good luck on the dream,......it's a nice dream to have.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:58 AM, realshelby said:

no one can show emissions laws didn't pay for themselves many times over. What? Well, just look at the fuel consumption of the average vehicle. Easily double the mileage per gallon. On unleaded fuel. 

 

At this point, cars could get better fuel economy if we eliminate the emissions regs and tune the engines to run lean.  Reduced throttling losses, reduced heat rejection to the cylinder walls/head, very much like a diesel.  You could even go to higher compression ratios under those conditions, further improving efficiency. 

 

Unfortunately, current aftertreatment tech for gasoline engines requires a stoichiometric mixture to work properly.  So that puts a significant crimp on what can be done with fuel economy.   This means that these days, your car costs more to buy because of the emissions control tech, and it costs more to operate than it could without it. 

 

All of which is beside the point, because making cars more economical for their owners wasn't the point of the rules: the goal was to protect public health.  Compared to where we would be without all of the emissions regs for cars, factories and power plants, we have enjoyed immensely improved quality of life, increased productivity, increased lifespan, and reduced health care costs.  

 

Benefits and Costs of the Clean Air Act, 1970 to 1990 - Study Design and Summary of Results

 

Quote

When the human health, human welfare, and environmental effects which could be expressed in dollar terms were added up for the entire 20-year period, the total benefits of Clean Air Act programs were estimated to range from about $6 trillion to about $50 trillion, with a mean estimate of about $22 trillion. These estimated benefits represent the estimated value Americans place on avoiding the dire air quality conditions and dramatic increases in illness and premature death which would have prevailed without the 1970 and 1977 Clean Air Act and its associated state and local programs. By comparison, the actual costs of achieving the pollution reductions observed over the 20 year period were $523 billion, a small fraction of the estimated monetary benefits.

 

 

Benefits and Costs of the Clean Air Act 1990-2020, the Second Prospective Study

 

Quote

Our central benefits estimate exceeds costs by a factor of more than 30 to one, and the high benefits estimate exceeds costs by 90 times. Even the low benefits estimate exceeds costs by about three to one.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:13 AM, mickeym3 said:

The E movement is gaining steam (electrons?) with GM increasing the new E models to be made available and endorsing California’s adoption of more stringent EPA guidelines (no mention how CA will build infrastructure to support all those E cars since they don’t have an effective grid now).  Thanks largely to the seed planted by Mitch’s description of his dad’s Tesla I made a deposit on a VW ID4 but don’t plan on getting a E bike.  The whole sensory nirvana offered by riding is greatly enhanced by the sweet exhaust tones of virtually any bike besides a Harley. 

 

The EV charging problem:

 

https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg

[ESokoloff]

12 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

The EV charging problem:

 

https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg

Can you imagine how petroleum fueling stations matured?

Link

 

The great thing about EV charging is for the vast majority of the time, one can charge at a destination. 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

22 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

The EV charging problem:

 

https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg

 

The complaint about the cost of building a charging station is odd.  They cite $250,000 for a Supercharging station that can serve 6-8 vehicles, but if you're building a conventional petrol station, these guys cite that amount just for the underground storage tank, plus an additional $20K for each multi-grade fuel dispenser.   EVs would be parked longer for charging than petrol cars are for filling, but you could add four more charger slots to the EV station before equaling the cost of a petrol station.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

27 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

The complaint about the cost of building a charging station is odd.  They cite $250,000 for a Supercharging station that can serve 6-8 vehicles, but if you're building a conventional petrol station, these guys cite that amount just for the underground storage tank, plus an additional $20K for each multi-grade fuel dispenser.   EVs would be parked longer for charging than petrol cars are for filling, but you could add four more charger slots to the EV station before equaling the cost of a petrol station.

 

 

 

Mitch, the issue, IMO, is gas stations, as we know and use them today, can be profitably operated by third parties, sans subsidies, even newly-constructed ones. Very likely, building/operating charging sites without the "C-store" appendage doesn't make economic sense for a private company not producing EVs, too; nor, have I seen C-store operators rush to build EV components.  I think they would if it were profitable.  To date, it appears the oil giants, BP and Shell are building charging stations, but not on large enough scale to make a dent in growing demand.

In my experience, adding charging stations could be problematic for an existing "gas" station.  I've had many c-store chains as clients.  Gas is a low-margin commodity. A c-store might make more margin on a large fountain drink than a gallon of gas.  If $/gal is too high and drivers opt for the lower price competitor.  Price it too low and the lot fills up , drivers rush to fill up and drive off not stopping to buy higher margined drinks, smokes and food.  Managers in the bigger chains' C-stores price-canvas their "area" and call in competing prices to the support center almost hourly where someone is watching the gallonage/inside sales $ and sending new pump prices to keep the drive/store sales ratio in balance.  Likely, most of this dance has been automated since my days in field.

They call them "Grab 'n Go", "Quick Stop", etc, for a reason instead of "Stop 'n Stay a While".

[realshelby]

I think some sit down type restaurants, Bass Pro type stores, and other places with a larger footprint are prime candidates for a charging station. These business's work hard to get people IN the door. With the internet reducing in person shopping, this might be something that would return those customers. Park the car for 45 minutes....and shop!

 

That will get us started on the path where private industry builds and provides charging stations. 

 

I can see large charging stations along the interstates in the future. Just like a truck stop ( except clean ) there will be multiple slots to charge at. But the key will be a mall type interior lounge area with  Starbucks and whatever else works in that environment. Think airport style facilities inside. You are going to spend 30 minutes to over an hour there, so you are a captive "audience". 

[John Ranalletta]

48 minutes ago, realshelby said:

I think some sit down type restaurants, Bass Pro type stores, and other places with a larger footprint are prime candidates for a charging station. These business's work hard to get people IN the door. With the internet reducing in person shopping, this might be something that would return those customers. Park the car for 45 minutes....and shop!

 

That will get us started on the path where private industry builds and provides charging stations. 

 

I can see large charging stations along the interstates in the future. Just like a truck stop ( except clean ) there will be multiple slots to charge at. But the key will be a mall type interior lounge area with  Starbucks and whatever else works in that environment. Think airport style facilities inside. You are going to spend 30 minutes to over an hour there, so you are a captive "audience". 

 

IMO, it's all just speculation until fast-charge technology improves, battery capacity & design is such that range meets consumer expectation and range is not grossly reduced in cold weather, demand is balanced, etc. 

[Rougarou]

Nope, when I pull into a fuel farm, I want fuel, I want to get it and go, I don't want to go inside and shop or have an extended wait time.  I've been in this little town going on five years and just two weeks ago physically went inside the Speedway, don't recall what I purchased, but I did remark to the wife that it was the first time I entered that building. 

 

When the stupid pump is out of receipt paper, I'm so anti-social that I don't go in to "see clerk for receipt", I mental note the price and write it down when I get home. 

 

When the e-vehicles can fill me up in the amount of time it takes to fill up a 25 gallon fuel tank, I may be interested.  It may come, but likely not in time for me to be in the market for one.

 

 

[RecentConvert]

In my 37 year career as an environmental engineer, I've observed the facts are rarely as portrayed by either side of the issue.  Thank you very little to the marketing types.

 

Progress, in the past has required regulation.  As much as that grates on me, since I am anti-regulation, it is true.  But regulatory overreach is also real. Our cars/trucks would still be spewing vast quantities of hydrocarbons if not for regulation.  Why?  Not because industry is evil, not because the design engineers don't care.  Because virtually all manufacturing is driven by customer demand.  The manufacturer will only build what the customer will pay for.  

 

Since everyone likes to talk about automobiles.   The efficiency of the automobile has greatly increased in the past 30 years, not arguable.  What has changed as much is customer demand.  Ford used to make cars, big cars, small cars and middle sized cars.   Look at their car lineup now.  The Mustang.  Now they make SUVs and trucks.  The current SUVs and trucks are much better, but from a mileage standpoint are about the same as cars of 20 years ago.   Because people want big vehicles, and major horsepower.  Make what the customer will buy.

 

Electric vehicles are currently on the rise.  Environmentally, the battery systems are large impactors.  The metals for the batteries have a highly significant environmental burden and several are found mainly outside of this country.  South American and China come to mind.  Be careful in what you wish for.

 

Someone in a previous post mentioned pumped storage as an environmental benefit.  I understand the economic benefit which is sell expensive electricity during high demand and use cheap electricity during low demand hours to pump it back uphill.  It is about dollars more than efficiency.

 

What is needed is balance.  Coal, yes it is needed and can be used in certain areas.  Nuclear, yes,  terrible image problem.  Wind, a favorite but highly variable, Solar, certainly.  As pointed out already in a previous post,  solar and wind need some type of storage like batteries or even pumped storage.   Pick one only and we have a problem, use all wisely, and life is better.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by RecentConvert
spelling error

[TEWKS]

No worries, a brand new power source will soon be online! 

[fourteenfour]

23 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

Can you imagine how petroleum fueling stations matured?

Link

 

The great thing about EV charging is for the vast majority of the time, one can charge at a destination. 

 

 

and for your days when you are not traveling plugging in at home means you leave home everyday with a full tank.  I took my Tesla 3 from Atlanta metro to Northwestern Ohio then crossed the state to visit another set of relatives before heading home. Not a care in the world though with the added benefit my Tesla pretty much drove itself on the interstate.  EVs are certainly here to stay and precious metals and such are becoming far less of a concern as technology advances.

 

You have 15 years left with new sales of combustion vehicles for private consumption... and hopefully within a few someone will make a viable motorcycle that can tour; consider how overweight that R18 is it isn't like even BMW riders could not get used to an 800 lb bike

[ESokoloff]

11 hours ago, Rougarou said:

When the stupid pump is out of receipt paper, I'm so anti-social that I don't go in to "see clerk for receipt"

I can’t remember when I last visited a gas station.
Thats one of the awesome things about EV’s.

Plug in when you get to work & when you go to leave at the end of the day you have a full battery.  
What’s so hard about that?

[Rougarou]

10 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

I can’t remember when I last visited a gas station.
Thats one of the awesome things about EV’s.

Plug in when you get to work & when you go to leave at the end of the day you have a full battery.  
What’s so hard about that?

 

Uh, my work doesn't have chargers, that's what's so hard about that.

 

That question did come up last year and the corporation/company is in agreement that if they don't provide fueling stations for internal combustion engines, it would be "unfair" to provide charging stations for EVs.

 

We do have a couple of Tesla drivers and I've seen a Volt or two before.

[Rougarou]

10 hours ago, fourteenfour said:

 

and for your days when you are not traveling plugging in at home means you leave home everyday with a full tank.  I took my Tesla 3 from Atlanta metro to Northwestern Ohio then crossed the state to visit another set of relatives before heading home. Not a care in the world though with the added benefit my Tesla pretty much drove itself on the interstate.  EVs are certainly here to stay and precious metals and such are becoming far less of a concern as technology advances.

 

You have 15 years left with new sales of combustion vehicles for private consumption... and hopefully within a few someone will make a viable motorcycle that can tour; consider how overweight that R18 is it isn't like even BMW riders could not get used to an 800 lb bike

 

I think I used the Tesla map to check my route from NC to SW La, right at 1k miles,....it would add four+ hours to my trip.  Ya, when they get it down to charging as quick as fueling, it'll be a consideration,.....consideration only.

[ESokoloff]

10 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Uh, my work doesn't have chargers, that's what's so hard about that.

Ok (I’m lucky$$), how about plugging in when you get home from work?

I realize that may not work out for you presently if all your commuting is via motorcycle. 
If you did commute via cage would EV work for you the MAJORITY of the time (charging @ home/overnight)? 

[Rougarou]

7 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

Ok (I’m lucky$$), how about plugging in when you get home from work?

I realize that may not work out for you presently if all your commuting is via motorcycle. 
If you did commute via cage would EV work for you the MAJORITY of the time (charging @ home/overnight)? 

 

It would for commuting, yes, but I look at a vehicle as "well rounded".  My bikes are "well rounded" in that I use them for commuting, pleasure riding and work trips.   Also, if the EV juice is low and I "forget" to charge, I'm outta luck, with a gasser, if the fuel was low, I pull in, fill up and leave, how easy is that?  

 

If I were to purchase an EV, it would be a local travel vehicle only and to me, that's not cost effective to spend that amount of money on a vehicle that I can't take on a 1k mile drive in an efficient amount of time.  I'm not adding additional time on a journey if I don't have to.  Until EV's get to the point of being able to be refueled(charged) in the amount of time it takes to fill a tank with gas/diesel, it ain't for me.  

 

My commute is 50 miles one way and there are several cars that would work for me, easily.  Zero motorcycles "could" work, but with reading through the averages, it's mostly city type riding (223 city, 150 combined, 110 hwy).  I'm 55mph+ rural roads and then slab 80mph+, so, with no way to charge at work, it's not an option.  Not enough "reserve" charge to play with, also, it would limit me to ONLY commuting and no errands.

 

 

 

 

[realshelby]

The fact is that most, in fact all but a very few, of us could deal with a 200 mile EV range with no problem. I do think we have a ways to go for those heading out on a long trip. Keep a gas powered or hybrid around for trips for now. 

 

The BIG DEAL....will be how the new electric Ford F-150 does. Can you actually haul anything? Tow something? Will the battery capacity allow for an 8000 lb boat to be towed 150 miles? Not sure that can happen. While the pickup by nature can haul a LOT more in battery weight, the very nature of drag and weight a pickup has negates much of that advantage. Electric cars are very low drag. While still somewhat heavy, once in motion they are efficient. 

[realshelby]

Richard, you might be surprised at how much you liked an EV to commute with. Sure there are problems to solve with charging/range. But there is also the cost of fuel you can save. MUCH less maintenance. Even brakes, as they just don't seem to wear on EV/Hybrid cars. That saves time and money right there. What I mean is...never say never. 

 

One of my biggest vehicle surprises of my life...was buying my Ford Cmax hybrid. While not the mega mileage car some associate with hybrid drive, it handled much better than a Prius, had a LOT more acceleration than you would have guessed too. I could own an EV without a second thought again. The only reason I don't have a new Mustang Mach E on order is....I don't commute any longer. 

[Rougarou]

17 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Richard, you might be surprised at how much you liked an EV to commute with. Sure there are problems to solve with charging/range. But there is also the cost of fuel you can save. MUCH less maintenance. Even brakes, as they just don't seem to wear on EV/Hybrid cars. That saves time and money right there. What I mean is...never say never. 

 

One of my biggest vehicle surprises of my life...was buying my Ford Cmax hybrid. While not the mega mileage car some associate with hybrid drive, it handled much better than a Prius, had a LOT more acceleration than you would have guessed too. I could own an EV without a second thought again. The only reason I don't have a new Mustang Mach E on order is....I don't commute any longer. 

 

I'm not denying that they'd work, "if", I'd drive a cage daily, but I don't.  Maintenance, meh, I change the oil and filter when the dummy light comes on.  30 minutes, tops.

 

My whole issue is they are not well rounded enough for me to fund.  If I can't ride all day with minimal disruptions or drive 1k miles in 14ish hours, I'm out.  

 

they'll be a time, but now or the near future, ain't it.

[TEDZ]

We're probably not apartment dwellers on this sited but those who are may need to have access to chargers at their residencies.  There's something to tackle too.

[Hosstage]

Oh to be an electrician in these upcoming times.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

4 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Oh to be an electrician in these upcoming times.

 

A bit like being a cardboard box manufacturer at the advent of internet commerce...

[fourteenfour]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:45 AM, Rougarou said:

 

If I were to purchase an EV, it would be a local travel vehicle only and to me, that's not cost effective to spend that amount of money on a vehicle that I can't take on a 1k mile drive in an efficient amount of time.  I'm not adding additional time on a journey if I don't have to.  Until EV's get to the point of being able to be refueled(charged) in the amount of time it takes to fill a tank with gas/diesel, it ain't for me.  

 

My commute is 50 miles one way and there are several cars that would work for me, easily.  Zero motorcycles "could" work, but with reading through the averages, it's mostly city type riding (223 city, 150 combined, 110 hwy).  I'm 55mph+ rural roads and then slab 80mph+, so, with no way to charge at work, it's not an option.  Not enough "reserve" charge to play with, also, it would limit me to ONLY commuting and no errands.

 

 

 

Zero is a lot of hype and their numbers fall like a rock when on the freeway.

 

For route planning, the best site I know of outside of owning a Tesla and letting the car decide is https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

 

[ESokoloff]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:11 AM, Rougarou said:

they'll be a time, but now or the near future, ain't it.

Getting closer tho.......

Link

 

[roadscholar]

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/porsche-e-fuel-synthetic-gas-racing-performance-efficiency/

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

Getting closer tho.......

Link

 

 

Maybe when the RT hits 200k, a 'lectrick will be considered as the replacement.  I'd have to see real world data on the road that reinforces the manufacturer's claims concerning distances attained and at "what" speeds. 

 

 

[Ken S]

I bought a Chevy Bolt recently, and really enjoy driving it.  Price was almost half of sticker price.  I finally decided to look at them when Costco claimed a special discount.  Deal was: negotiate price with dealer, THEN get $3000 off that with Costco membership.  It worked.

 

But the real kicker was the fact that my solar system makes more electricity than we use, so fuel is free much of the year.

 

There are also several free charging stations nearby, and the state is using VW settlement $ to install quick-charging stations along the highways.

[ESokoloff]

It’s a good time to be an EV owner with the present gas crisis (fully understand that electrical grids are also susceptible to shortages/outages).

[Rougarou]

8 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

It’s a good time to be an EV owner with the present gas crisis (fully understand that electrical grids are also susceptible to shortages/outages).

 

Shortlived crisis, Colonial is back up and should back to normal in short order.  But Bojangles out of Supremes and Chick-fil-A out of sauces,.....that's the real problem!!

[mickeym3]

This is kinda funny (in a twisted way of course), “Pete Buttigieg is Team Biden’s latest Marie Antoinette“.  We picked up our ID.4 AWD on Monday (10 months after ordering).  I’m looking at it as a carbon offset for my race car but will freely admit I’m enjoying it quite a bit but definitely not wanting a EV bike…it’s a visceral thing. 

[wbw6cos]

If I ever decide on EV, I like this offering from Lucid Motors, which made COTY

[mickeym3]

Still delighted with my ID.4, just managing what’s in my purview.  Think some of the regulatory measures that improved air quality were made during a time when there was more consensus on governance for the common good. The current polarization has annihilated any such notion. See where Biden has signed an executive order to make the federal government carbon neutral by 2050 (assume concessions will be made for the military and flying AF1 and the congressional fleet).  Expect a contrary edict in 2024, and so it goes. The glass half full outlook I’ve maintained my 70 plus years seems to have developed a leak. My hope is with my grandkids and what little sense of balance I can yet instill in them.