Tills injector Upgrade Install

[Michaelr11]

Bike is a 2001 R1100RT.  I purchased the Tills.de injector upgrade kit and attempted to install the injectors today.  Could not get the fuel line onto the end of the injector.  Visual inspection of the injectors - it sure seems that the new injectors are bigger at the fuel line input end than the original 1100 injectors. I took measurements with a micrometer and the new injectors measure approximately 14.75 mm, while the original injectors measure 14.35 mm.  This is the measure of the diameter of the injector end WITH the o-ring installed. I tried to take my measurements without compressing the o-rings.

 

Has anyone else installed these on their 1100 bike?  I have sent an email to Tills.de, but the time difference means I won't possibly hear back from them until tomorrow.

[szurszewski]

I have not put these on an 1100, but I have communicated with Tills about other bikes/injectors and found him to be very responsive. Sorry to not have an answer for you, but hopefully you'll have one from him tomorrow. 

[Brucifer1150]

From what I can see, there is an 1100xx injector and an 1100s &1150xx one. Could you have received the wrong one?

 

BoxerBooster only R1100 - GS RT R - performance increase - (NOT for R1100S)

Item No.:

11545

136.47 EUR

 

R1100S and R1150xx upgrade set to NEW synchronous 12 injectors

Item No.:

11550

116.97 EUR

 

Google translate can only take me so far.

[Michaelr11]

The injectors included in the kit I received are BOSCH part number 0 280 158 038.  I don't know if these are the right injectors.

 

Got an email from Tillman at Tills.de.  He suggested swapping the o-rings for the spare o-rings that came in the kit.  They are identical.  Don't see how that will change anything.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

The injectors included in the kit I received are BOSCH part number 0 280 158 038.  I don't know if these are the right injectors.

 

Got an email from Tillman at Tills.de.  He suggested swapping the o-rings for the spare o-rings that came in the kit.  They are identical.  Don't see how that will change anything.

Morning Michaelr11

 

"O" rings can swell up slightly if exposed to alcohol containing fuel so you might give the "O" ring  swap a try.

 

Personally, I usually put just a very small swipe of silicon grease on those "O" ring before assembly as that makes assembly much easier. 

[Still CAL]

I did the Tills injector upgrade on my 97 1100RT last fall, didn't run into any problems with any of the install. Like DR i used a little silicone grease to ease the fuel lines into place.

[roger 04 rt]

A friend of mine got the wrong injectors from tills.de for his R1150 (the kit was for an R1100). Make sure yours are right. 

[Michaelr11]

On 10/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Still CAL said:

did the Tills injector upgrade on my 97 1100RT last fall, didn't run into any problems with any of the install.

Still CAL, is there any way you can get the Bosch part number from your 1100 injectors?  Either stamped on the injectors or from the original box which Tills shipped with the kit.

 

 I am trying to determine if the right parts were shipped. That would be a great answer because it would be the easiest explanation and simple to correct. I’m over twenty years of BMW riding and wrenching, 14 years of wrenching on my 1100RT. The injectors were lubed when I tried to install them and I can’t figure how I couldn’t get the fuel line on.

[Still CAL]

26 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

Still CAL, is there any way you can get the Bosch part number from your 1100 injectors?  Either stamped on the injectors or from the original box which Tills shipped with the kit.

 

 I am trying to determine if the right parts were shipped. That would be a great answer because it would be the easiest explanation and simple to correct. I’m over twenty years of BMW riding and wrenching, 14 years of wrenching on my 1100RT. The injectors were lubed when I tried to install them and I can’t figure how I couldn’t get the fuel line on.

Give me a little bit, just climbed into a tub to ease my back. I’ll go look when I get out and report back. 
 

[Still CAL]

Sorry it's gotten late, but I finally was able to go and look at the bikes to see what I've got. I put Till's kit in three bikes, two of which are Rs: the 1997 R1100RT and the 1994 R1100RS. Both use the same injectors: Bosch EV-14-KT. The BMW part number listed by Till is 13 61 76 72 335, which is widely used on models of the R1200, S1000, F700/800, as well as the R nine T and HP4.

 

My paperwork indicates "upgrade kit R1100xx with matched R12xx injectors plug & play, to fit: R850GS-R850R-R1100GS-R1100R-

R1100RS-R1100RT". I did have an issue with the RS, but not the RT, and not with installing the fuel lines. I use Chris Harris' trick of using alcohol on the o-rings to get the fuel lines to pop on. 

 

Hope this helps. 

[Still CAL]

Till sends brown o-rings installed on the injectors, plus two spares in a small bag. Are yours brown?

It looks like the R1150 o-rings are slightly smaller in thickness but the same diameter, so if you had those I would think the fuel line would be easier to pop on, not harder.

[dirtrider]

49 minutes ago, Still CAL said:

Till sends brown o-rings installed on the injectors, plus two spares in a small bag. Are yours brown?

It looks like the R1150 o-rings are slightly smaller in thickness but the same diameter, so if you had those I would think the fuel line would be easier to pop on, not harder.

Afternoon  Still CAL

 

The 1150RT O-rings are - 7.52mmOD X 3.51mmC/S .

[Still CAL]

51 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  Still CAL

 

The 1150RT O-rings are - 7.52mmOD X 3.51mmC/S .

Yes sir, versus the 1100xx units which are 7.52mm x 3.53mm. Very slightly thicker. 

[GroceryRun]

Michaelr11 : 

Any way you can take a photo of the fuel injector with the top hat ( if there is one ) , and the skirt ? 

[Michaelr11]

Not sure what is the tophat or the skirt.  Here's two photos, both showing the fuel line connection ends.  Although the new EV-14 injector is clearly wider, Tills swears that the part number of the EV-14 is the correct injector.  I've reinstalled the fairing, so the injector kit will either wait until next maintenance cycle - probably 3 months - or I'll sell off the kit at a loss.  Yes, as you see, the Tills o-ring is brown. 

 

[Still CAL]

Looks like the part numbers are the same:

 

 

And here’s the fuel line connection:

 

 

A bit of a stretch, but are you sure the plastic fuel pipe isn't going onto the injector? I looked at my old injectors and they are identical to yours. But I guess you would know if the fuel line cap wasn't going over the o-ring. Not trying to insult you! 

[Michaelr11]

5 hours ago, Still CAL said:

A bit of a stretch, but are you sure the plastic fuel pipe isn't going onto the injector? I looked at my old injectors and they are identical to yours. But I guess you would know if the fuel line cap wasn't going over the o-ring. Not trying to insult you! 

 

Great photos of your install CAL, thanks.

 

I'm not insulted.  But, yes, I'm certain that the fuel line cap never got over the entire o-ring.  As I said above, The bike is assembled again after a regular maintenance cycle. I'll probably just hold the upgrade kit until the next time I have the fairing panels off. As the weather cools, that will probably be 3-6 months.

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Michaelr11 said:

 

Great photos of your install CAL, thanks.

 

I'm not insulted.  But, yes, I'm certain that the fuel line cap never got over the entire o-ring.  As I said above, The bike is assembled again after a regular maintenance cycle. I'll probably just hold the upgrade kit until the next time I have the fairing panels off. As the weather cools, that will probably be 3-6 months.

Morning  Michaelr11

 

Throughout the 1100RT model run there were at least 3 fuel distributors offered by BMW, each new part number was a  supersede from the previous. I don't know the differences or reason for the supersedes  but it is possible the fuel distributor  injector-end fuel line connector was slightly changed. 

 

I looked through my old service bulletins last night but couldn't find anything on "exactly" what was changed on/in the fuel distributors throughout the supersedes.

 

With the changes in mind,  when you get around to trying the new injectors again in the future, first thing to try is completely removing the "O" ring, THEN see if it will assemble.  If it will assemble without an "O" ring  then you are probably dealing with an "O" ring induced fitment problem. If it STILL won't assemble even without an "O" ring on the injector then you have a basic match-up problem between the injector & fuel distributor line so that will then have to be identified & dealt with.  

[Michaelr11]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

when you get around to trying the new injectors again in the future, first thing to try is completely removing the "O" ring, THEN see if it will assemble.  If it will assemble without an "O" ring  then you are probably dealing with an "O" ring induced fitment problem. If it STILL won't assemble even without an "O" ring on the injector then you have a basic match-up problem between the injector & fuel distributor line so that will then have to be identified & dealt with.  

 

Great idea DR.  My RT is a 2001 model (11/2000 build), so should have the latest fuel rail.  I mentioned in the first post that the Tills injector with o-ring was .4 mm larger than the original injector.  The Tills injector is 12 mm without o-ring, the original injector 14.3-14.35 with o-ring, so the new injector "should" fit.  I might just need to find a marginally smaller o-ring. 

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

 

Great idea DR.  My RT is a 2001 model (11/2000 build), so should have the latest fuel rail.  I mentioned in the first post that the Tills injector with o-ring was .4 mm larger than the original injector.  The Tills injector is 12 mm without o-ring, the original injector 14.3-14.35 with o-ring, so the new injector "should" fit.  I might just need to find a marginally smaller o-ring. 

Morning  Michaelr11

 

Not necessarily on the latest fuel rail, BMW is noted for changing the service parts after a production model run ends as sometimes failures/reasons don't show up until well after the model is out of production. Or sometimes they can use a common part  across a number of similar models to eliminate parts inventory. 

 

If your original injector is 14.3-14.35 with o-ring, what size is the Tillis  injector  with o-ring?

 

 

[szurszewski]

16 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

If your original injector is 14.3-14.35 with o-ring, what size is the Tillis  injector  with o-ring?

 

 

He said in the op:

 

On 10/6/2020 at 8:19 PM, Michaelr11 said:

the new injectors measure approximately 14.75 mm

 

[dirtrider]

48 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

He said in the op:

 

 

Afternoon   szurszewski

 

Thanks, I didn't remember reading that. 

 

So that is about .016" total difference that equates to about an .008"  compression difference all the way around. 

 

That would be tight fit if all new "O" rings but the original injector "O" rings might have been  deformed to a slightly smaller OD from years of being compressed inside the original fuel rail end fittings. 

 

 

[szurszewski]

Perhaps moot now that it’s all back together, and certainly not ideal anyway, but did you try moving the o-rings from the old injectors into the new injectors? 

[Michaelr11]

2 hours ago, szurszewski said:

Perhaps moot now that it’s all back together, and certainly not ideal anyway, but did you try moving the o-rings from the old injectors into the new injectors? 

 

I didn't measure the o-rings, but look at the photos, you'll see that the original  EV-1 injector o-rings are much thicker.  The original injector measures 10 mm without the o-ring, the new EV-14 injector measures 12 mm without the o-ring.  That would be an interesting fit. 

 

I have an extra set of original EV-1 injectors.  I could try to swap the o-ring over to the EV-14 injector, see if it goes on and see what that measures.

What about using a fine file on the EV-14 o-ring to reduce the outer diameter?

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, Michaelr11 said:

What about using a fine file on the EV-14 o-ring to reduce the outer diameter?

Afternoon Michaelr11

 

That sounds like a good way to end up with a future leak. Plus it is very difficult to file on rubber. I usually put a mandrel in my drill (slightly larger than the "O" ring ID, then put the "O" ring on the mandrel, then place a piece of wet (wet & dry) sandpaper on a hard flat surface. Then while keeping the paper wet spin the "O" ring against the paper with the drill. 

 

Probably best to just find slightly thinner "O" rings with a smaller cross section, or find slightly smaller "O" rings that will stretch out to be thinner  when installed. 

[Lowndes]

Michealr11,

 

I remember the assembly with new O-rings was more difficult on my '99 RT three years ago, but they did go together.  You might try warming the O-rings in a cup of boiling water to see if that will soften them enough to get the line on.

[Michaelr11]

I'm committed to waiting now.  Bike is back together.  I'll look at O-rings, and possibly finding marginally smaller O-rings.  A couple of months or so, there'll be another maintenance cycle of some sort and the fairings will be off again.  

[SinNH]

Just wondering, installing aftermarket injectors is a monetary issue or the OEM not available?

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, SinNH said:

Just wondering, installing aftermarket injectors is a monetary issue or the OEM not available?

Afternoon SinNH

 

Neither, the (correct) aftermarket injectors  gives a better fuel spray pattern.

[OnyxWalker]

On 10/16/2020 at 1:25 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Neither, the (correct) aftermarket injectors  gives a better fuel spray pattern.

Hi, can we get some reviews on these Tills injectors, looks like a lot of folks here are going with them, are they worth the extra bean$

I'm shopping around for a set to go on my 2004 R1150 R

 

I guess my underlining priorities would be ; easy starting, low fuel consumption, smooth acceleration, reliability.

not really looking for more Hp , maybe stock? what is the average lifespan of a stock injector? 

 

Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

 

 

[szurszewski]

16 minutes ago, OnyxWalker said:

Hi, can we get some reviews on these Tills injectors, looks like a lot of folks here are going with them, are they worth the extra bean$

I'm shopping around for a set to go on my 2004 R1150 R

 

I guess my underlining priorities would be ; easy starting, low fuel consumption, smooth acceleration, reliability.

not really looking for more Hp , maybe stock? what is the average lifespan of a stock injector? 

 

Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

 

 

Really best to start a new thread on this with a title that will get the attention of those that have used them. There do seem to be lots of people who have installed them, and they are a pretty inexpensive and easy swap - maybe that's why. I have not done them on any of my bikes, but have put them on bikes for others a couple of times, and those folks seemed happy with the money spent. At worst, you're getting new, clean, matched injectors - and that's all good stuff. 

[Michaelr11]

Well, here’s my update.  I had a set of used throttle bodies that I picked up a while ago just to keep around. They came with the OEM  injectors.

 

 I pulled out the injectors and shipped them out to a fuel injector cleaning service. They came back cleaned, new filters and o rings, and the flow rate was exactly matched.  The injectors installed on the bike easily. I sold the Tills injectors for a bargain price and the purchaser was able to install them on his bike without a problem. So, I have to believe that I was just not willing to push hard enough to get them seated on the fuel line.

 

[OnyxWalker]

6 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

Well, here’s my update.  I had a set of used throttle bodies that I picked up a while ago just to keep around. They came with the OEM  injectors.

 

 I pulled out the injectors and shipped them out to a fuel injector cleaning service. They came back cleaned, new filters and o rings, and the flow rate was exactly matched.  The injectors installed on the bike easily. I sold the Tills injectors for a bargain price and the purchaser was able to install them on his bike without a problem. So, I have to believe that I was just not willing to push hard enough to get them seated on the fuel line.

 

Thanks for the great info all.  

would it be possible to get a little more info on where you sent your injectors for re-build and what the cost was.

Thanks!

[Michaelr11]

1 minute ago, OnyxWalker said:

Thanks for the great info.  

would it be possible to get a little more info on where you sent your injectors for re-build and what the cost was.

Thanks!

There are plenty of these services around.  I used injector Rx in Houston, injectorrx.com. They charge $18 per injector, and I think $9 for 2-3 day priority return mail. So, with my outbound shipping the total cost was about $55.  This was the second time that I used them. 

[Lowndes]

I've had very good service and results from Injector Rehab in Blackwood, NJ. Their services and prices are on their website:  https://injector-rehab.com/shop/

 

The owner is Kieth Gibbons, was super to deal with. 

 

keith@injector-rehab.com

 

I've replaced injectors and upgraded to EV14's on 3 beemers; two R1100 (RT and S) and a K1200RS.  He sells new Bosch units plus cleaned and flow-matched reconditioned units with the flow charts.  He also has all the extra O-rings, inlet filters, adapters for the older conversion to the newer (shorter) units.  

[OnyxWalker]

All great options, thanks.

I'm going to go with the Bosch $45 each, hard to beat that.

I was going to go for the rebuild option but noticed my injectors had 2 totally different numbers, like one had 7 digits and the other 10 .

Even if I eventually upgrade I'll have these as spares.

 

Thx.

 

P.s if anyone needs these I'll post the numbers, just pay shipping :)