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Skywagon

I had an interesting and fun experience today.  I had to take a package to UPS for mailing today.  All was fine and safe with no more than 2 in the store, mask required, and the staff was wearing gloves as was I.

 

When it came time to pay I gave the nice young lady a $20 bill for the $4.77 shipment.  This is the part that was fun.  Her register was off-line.  She stood there for a minute, pulled out her phone, punched around on it a bit, and finally turned to a coworker and asked how much change do I give him.  The coworker thought for a minute and said let me ask the manager.  The manager worked the math out in his head and gave her the correct number.  I thought about helping her learn how to make change without a machine, phone, calculator, but thought it might embarrass her so I left.

 

I would guess the lady was about 23-25, the second person maybe 18-20, and the manager was probably 25 ish.  As sad as that is it really made me smile and made my day brighter

 

 

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RandyShields

Similar firsthand story of a Millennial in line for a less than $1 purchase.  No, the clerk would not take a credit card because of the interchange cost.  The youngster was asked if he had the change (coin) to pay for the item and replied, what is that -- why would I carry coins?

 

 

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wbw6cos

Oh, and heaven forbid if you also give them 2 pennies after they type the amount tendered in the register.   :dontknow:

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Hosstage

It is a sad, yet humorous, state of the current condition of the youth. Many years ago, working part time as a clerk in a liquor store, I could not use the register to count change back to the customer, it just screwed me up, did it old school. My coworker could not figure out how I did it, no matter how hard I tried to teach her. I didn't have the heart to tell her I knew how to do it since I was 5 years old.

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Rougarou

In my wife's 4th grade classroom, she has the digital clock covered.  The dial face clock is not...........

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Hosstage

Good for her! My buddies son, 24(?) years old, a guard at a maximum security prison, cannot read a clock. Rather sad state of affairs, I think.

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Red

I say we adopt the standard in most of the rest of the world.  Go to the 24 hr clock.  As for making change, I don't think most folks under 30 can do math in their heads to give back change anymore.

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Sonor

And they vote -

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realshelby

While easy and certainly obvious to us as older observers, the "youth" certainly seem to have lost something. Or have they? 

 

While you are watching them fumble through mentally counting change or telling time from an analog clock, they can reprogram your computer before you can figure out how to get to the "systems" page..............:18:

 

It is all relative. When young I needed to know things.....that simply are not as important today. Will there come a day when those skills are needed again? I hope not. Meanwhile, embrace change. I love to learn from them. If the old way was so good, why did it change?  Humans adapt very well!

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Hosstage

I have to agree. Once you find yourself saying, "You know, back in my day...", you are officially older than your parents!

I still think kids need to learn how to read a clock.

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Rougarou

 

Ya, as just a "dumb grunt", I can fix my own computer, and read a clock, and make change in my head, and carry cash, and change a tire and wire a house, and, cut my own grass and, and,   adapt, learn.......be self-reliant,......many of the "youth" are not self-reliant,....if the network is down, they are lost.

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realshelby
7 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

I have to agree. Once you find yourself saying, "You know, back in my day...", you are officially older than your parents!

I still think kids need to learn how to read a clock.

Notice the "youngsters" don't wear watches? That was my first clue YEARS ago that things I thought could never change....have changed. They just look at their cell phone for the time. I still have some nice watches. Not Rolex stuff, but actually better in some ways. I hate to say that I rarely wear them anymore. 

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realshelby
2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Ya, as just a "dumb grunt", I can fix my own computer, and read a clock, and make change in my head, and carry cash, and change a tire and wire a house, and, cut my own grass and, and,   adapt, learn.......be self-reliant,......many of the "youth" are not self-reliant,....if the network is down, they are lost.

But do you know the difference between Tik Tok and Instagram?  I honestly have never been on either.......

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Rougarou
5 minutes ago, realshelby said:

But do you know the difference between Tik Tok and Instagram?  I honestly have never been on either.......

 

Yes, I don't have accounts on either, but have been to both, linked.  Tiktok is mainly video sharing whereas instagram is twitter on 'roids. 

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realshelby

Richard, you might be a Millennial and we don't know it! :3:

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Rougarou

Nah, I can read a clock and call it out on the 24hr scale without doing the math in my head.

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taylor1

Just think what would happen if they had to write a check

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Rougarou
6 minutes ago, taylor1 said:

Just think what would happen if they had to write a check

 

Ohmygosh,.....when my youngest daughter bought her first vehicle, she had to write a check,......and didn't know how,......I had to talk her through it.  I asked if she were taught this in school, she said no,.......wow, I thought we all were taught that.

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Hosstage

Do yutes know why the phrase "rolling up the windows" is used? Doubtful. Damn, I'm old! 

The best use of that phrase I heard when describing a skier or skateboarder going off of a jump, and waving their arms to keep their balance, the announcer called it "rolling up the windows." I thought that was hilarious!

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BrianM

Haven't written a check in years. Don't carry coins, haven't most of my life, hate carrying things in my pants pockets. Never wore a watch.

 

I don't find arithmetic (math using numbers) really all that useful. I can do it in my head, but I am rather slow.

 

Mathematics beyond arithmetic relies on algebra. Algebra is the key to mathematics. Being good at arithmetic is not an indicator of being good at algebra. They require different types of thinking. People who do better at spacial thinking tend to do better at algebra (and beyond). I am very good at algebra.

 

In graduate school (physics) never needed a calculator, none of our problems had numbers. Besides, if you have numbers, they are not used until all the math is done and you have arrived at the solution. Then you plug in the numbers.

 

I find the skills and the thinking reqired to solve 2nd order time dependent partial differential equations (like Schoedinger's equation) in infinite dimensional vector spaces (like Hilbert space) far more useful than those learned doing arithmetic. I use those skills/thinking processes everyday.

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Hosstage

Yeah, but can you read a clock?

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BrianM
7 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Yeah, but can you read a clock?

Actually, by not having a watch, I have become very good at knowing the passage  of time and knowing the time (error less than 15 min) without any time keeping device.

 

I usually don't know thw day of the month without looking, mostly because it is rarely of any use to me.

 

Yes, I can read a digital, analog, and (real) atomic clocks

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Skywagon

I have a bunch of watches too...some I bought in Switzerland a couple of decades back.  I haven't worn a watch, wedding ring, jewelry of any kind since about 2005.  I just don't like having things on my arms or fingers.  I do use my cell for date and time.  My wallet is basically a business card holder.  It's super thin. I only carry a couple of credit cards, drivers license, insurance card, and license to carry.  I hate sitting on a big wallet.  I haven't carried a real wallet since I was a teenager.  I always carry cash in my front pocket.  My dad use to tell me cash is always good...everyone takes cash.  Well over the last couple of years that's not true anymore, but 99% of the time it is.

 

Brian...math and numbers may not be important in your industry or others, but if you are in a finance profession, accounting, or you have to present financial info you need to be able to do math in your head and quickly.  Math was a huge part of my professional career.  I had to be able to quick math, margins - gross - net, roic, etc in my head on the fly as I was presenting numbers to the board or the analyst. I still can...but I never had to understand or present  Schoedinger's equation.  Its all in your profession or hobbies.

 

If you ever take up flying math in your head and instantaneously is required.  Even with the best GPS's, Flight Computer, etc...math is required.

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Hosstage

Any good salesman can do math quickly.

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BrianM
24 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

I have a bunch of watches too...some I bought in Switzerland a couple of decades back.  I haven't worn a watch, wedding ring, jewelry of any kind since about 2005.  I just don't like having things on my arms or fingers.  I do use my cell for date and time.  My wallet is basically a business card holder.  It's super thin. I only carry a couple of credit cards, drivers license, insurance card, and license to carry.  I hate sitting on a big wallet.  I haven't carried a real wallet since I was a teenager.  I always carry cash in my front pocket.  My dad use to tell me cash is always good...everyone takes cash.  Well over the last couple of years that's not true anymore, but 99% of the time it is.

 

Brian...math and numbers may not be important in your industry or others, but if you are in a finance profession, accounting, or you have to present financial info you need to be able to do math in your head and quickly.  Math was a huge part of my professional career.  I had to be able to quick math, margins - gross - net, roic, etc in my head on the fly as I was presenting numbers to the board or the analyst. I still can...but I never had to understand or present  Schoedinger's equation.  Its all in your profession or hobbies.

 

If you ever take up flying math in your head and instantaneously is required.  Even with the best GPS's, Flight Computer, etc...math is required.

 

I understand that there are times arithmetic can be useful. I can and have done it. Much of the amazing arithmetic is done using tricks and short cuts, which tend to not be applicable to anything else. Really how useful is it to be able to multiply 3 or 4 (or more) digit numbers times each other in your head?

 

I am greatly bothered by peoples judgement of others based upon ability to perform arithmetic. I do not think of being able to do feats of arithmetic in your head is much of an idicator of anything. I don't equate it with doing math. That is why I have not bothered to really spend the time to do it faster. Besides, if I am doing a calculation that matters, I am going to use a calculator (or computer), and do it at least twice. 

 

I have seen math programs sold to parents as making their kids better at math. Many of these we nothing more than teaching kids faster ways to do arithmetic in their heads. That will do nothing to get them ready for algebra. I see people who are "good at math" often not do so well when they are really doing math (algebra and beyond). 

 

In civilian aviation, when would you NEED to do an instantaneous math calculation? Is this routine or in an emergency? Could you please give an example? I am really curious why you would have to do it in a non emergency.

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Skywagon

Brian....I agree and if you notice in my other post it says profession related.  Some need it some don't..

 

Aviation...So you are on an ILS approach, radar services terminated due to terrain, the VOR needle is 2 balls left, 2 miles from the field. The GPS is off-line which does happen more than you realize. How much correction do I need, is there enough time left and my current speed to get on course or do I go around.  Do I maintain the same speed or slow down.

Engine out....I'm at 5000 ft.  My glide ratio is 10/1.  Can I make the airport that is 17 miles away.  Can I make that field that is 12 miles away because I have to make it over a 3000ft hill 4 miles in front of me.  I can list many many more but those are real live situations I've been in.

 

Not all my aviation was civilian...So in an emergency I need to dump fuel to get to weight.  How much do I need to dump.  How much altitude do I have left before I can legally dump fuel.  Can I get it all dumped in time.  Once I dump the fuel will I still be in CG.

 

When and if you take your commercial much of the written test and the test with the FAA requires you to compute weight and balance shift while flyingl.  An example will be flying a Cherokee 6.  You have 1/2 fuel.  The two upfront pilots weigh 180 lbs each.  You have 2 center seats with 2 people weighing 250 lbs.  The rear seats have on person and 115 lbs.  The passengers want to change positions. Can the front and middle change seats and still be in CG.  The Faa examiner will give you about 15 seconds to answer that question.

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Rougarou

I dunno, when you are calling in a fire mission and bracketing the shots, you might want to be able to sorta accurately do some simple plus/minus of distances, or when you're walking in the fire, or when you're doing land navigation, and you're dealing with mils converting to degrees and degrees back to mils.  If you calculate wrong, the wrong people could die.  On the spot, in your head most of the times,......sure, training allows for jotting stuff down and taking your time, but when the lead be a'flying, whose got time for that? 

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BrianM
11 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Brian....I agree and if you notice in my other post it says profession related.  Some need it some don't..

 

Aviation...So you are on an ILS approach, radar services terminated due to terrain, the VOR needle is 2 balls left, 2 miles from the field. The GPS is off-line which does happen more than you realize. How much correction do I need, is there enough time left and my current speed to get on course or do I go around.  Do I maintain the same speed or slow down.

Engine out....I'm at 5000 ft.  My glide ratio is 10/1.  Can I make the airport that is 17 miles away.  Can I make that field that is 12 miles away because I have to make it over a 3000ft hill 4 miles in front of me.  I can list many many more but those are real live situations I've been in.

 

Not all my aviation was civilian...So in an emergency I need to dump fuel to get to weight.  How much do I need to dump.  How much altitude do I have left before I can legally dump fuel.  Can I get it all dumped in time.  Once I dump the fuel will I still be in CG.

 

When and if you take your commercial much of the written test and the test with the FAA requires you to compute weight and balance shift while flyingl.  An example will be flying a Cherokee 6.  You have 1/2 fuel.  The two upfront pilots weigh 180 lbs each.  You have 2 center seats with 2 people weighing 250 lbs.  The rear seats have on person and 115 lbs.  The passengers want to change positions. Can the front and middle change seats and still be in CG.  The Faa examiner will give you about 15 seconds to answer that question.

 

So the majority are emergency. Makes sense.

 

10-1, at 5000ft, about 50,000 feet, less than 10 miles (52800 ft). Not really arithmetic - order of magnitude. Took longer to type.

 

Most of the problems do not seem too difficult, with a little practice and better knowledge of the planes involved, could be done.

 

The people switching could not be any sort of precise calculation in 15 seconds. Most of these seem to be order of magnitude. 

 

I ask civilian, beacuase that is all the flying I would do, not even commercial at my age.

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BrianM
12 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I dunno, when you are calling in a fire mission and bracketing the shots, you might want to be able to sorta accurately do some simple plus/minus of distances, or when you're walking in the fire, or when you're doing land navigation, and you're dealing with mils converting to degrees and degrees back to mils.  If you calculate wrong, the wrong people could die.  On the spot, in your head most of the times,......sure, training allows for jotting stuff down and taking your time, but when the lead be a'flying, whose got time for that? 

 

To what precision (decimal places) can you (or need to) make these calculations? Do you use 6283 or 6400 as your conversion factor? Or something else? Personally I would probably use 17.5 mrad = 1 deg for quick calculations, but depends upon how close. I would at least try to use paper and pencil if precision is required. 2 people making the same calculation adds redundancy.

 

Do vehicles have computers/paper/pencils? Does artillary use computers?

 

Should really use mrad not mil. mil has multiple meanings and could be confused (engineers call .001 in = milli inch = mil). Context does help, but correct units is better.

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Hosstage

Most real math is not needed in daily use, simple arithmetic is a staple though, as far as I'm concerned.

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Rougarou

we use 6400.

 

.2 will add up and throw calculations off.

 

paper and pencil, time is critical, no time to write when you're on the radio calling the shots

 

Grunts on the ground may now have small computers, but not that very long ago, it was in your head calculations. 

 

Artillery and and flyboys have computers, but not that long ago, artillery and mortars only had 

 

Use mil in terms 'cause that's what I used, may have been initially taught the full unabbreviated jargon, but that would have been in the late 80's.......never used it.

 

The geometry of the battlefield doesn't allow for much mils or degrees to be off

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roadscholar

It’s youth only because high tech has come about in the last 40 years and made everything more convenient. 1st graders haven’t had to learn arithmetic because they have little plastic calculators so when they're grown they can't make change without a machine. And most under 40’s can’t drive a stick shift because they’ve never seen one.

 

A lot of  BMW riders can’t tell you the numbers or names of the roads they’ve been riding on all day because a buddy emailed them a gpx file they downloaded to their GPS. Had they studied a paper map of the route beforehand they’d know exactly where they were and be able to tell others. There are a few 40-somethings in our dualsport group whose eyes glaze over when you give them verbal directions to some place, it's like you're speaking a foreign language, you might as well try to tell a tree. In addition when you ask where that bridge-out or closed-gate was they can’t get you in the correct county. They're really good with Basecamp though : )

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BrianM
25 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

we use 6400.

 

.2 will add up and throw calculations off.

 

paper and pencil, time is critical, no time to write when you're on the radio calling the shots

 

Grunts on the ground may now have small computers, but not that very long ago, it was in your head calculations. 

 

Artillery and and flyboys have computers, but not that long ago, artillery and mortars only had 

 

Use mil in terms 'cause that's what I used, may have been initially taught the full unabbreviated jargon, but that would have been in the late 80's.......never used it.

 

The geometry of the battlefield doesn't allow for much mils or degrees to be off

Where is the .2 coming from?

 

Using 6400 adds an error to your calculations.

 

Reason they are moving away from in the head calculations, is they are prone to error.

 

It is not easy to do high precision arithmetic in your head. Most calculations in involve making it easier to calculate (6400 instead of 2000*pi). These are called estimates. Much of what people call doing arithmetic in their heads are really estimates. Making estimates is very common, but to me, that is not really doing arithmetic (actual, unsimplified calculations).

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Rougarou

6400/360=17.777777, you'd use 17.5 for quick calculations, hence, .2

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BrianM
7 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

It’s youth only because high tech has come about in the last 40 years and made everything more convenient. 1st graders haven’t had to learn arithmetic because they have little plastic calculators, they learn to push buttons. Most under 40’s can’t drive a stick shift because they’ve never seen one.

 

A lot of  BMW riders can’t tell you the numbers or names of the roads they’ve been riding on all day because a buddy emailed them a gpx file they downloaded to their GPS. Had they studied a paper map of the route beforehand they’d know exactly where they were and be able to tell others. There are a few 40 somethings in our dualsport group that get starry-eyed when you give them verbal directions somewhere, you might as well try to tell a tree. In addition when you ask where that bridge out or closed gate was they can’t get you in the correct county : )

Calculators are great. No more slide rules, trig tables, common and natural log tables, no more haviing to interpolate.

 

However, calculators are a tool, kids really need more time using them. When I see them in college, most are not very good at using them. I teach them the logic of how a calculator works. Also inform them about the danger of rounding intermediate calculations and how to avoid doing so. Once this is understood, you can then use one far more efficiently. I can type on one about as fast as a teenagr can text.

 

Of course RPN calculators are far superior.

 

When I wrtie directions for myself, they tend to involve distances and turn directions (reset trip meter). I do have road names, but those are a backup. Can't tell yu the number of times intersections have no road names/highway signs.

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BrianM
9 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

6400/360=17.777777, you'd use 17.5 for quick calculations, hence, .2

But 17.5 is closer to the actual value and easier to use. It will give answers closer to the correct value.

 

6238/360 = 17.45 (2000*pi/360=17.45 rounded to 2 places)

 

6400 is not the actual value. You are off by 17.78 - 17.45 = 0.33

 

2*pi radians = 360 degrees

1000*2*pi mrads = 2000*pi = 360degrees = 6283.185......mrad. This is the actuual conversion factor. 

 

6400 is a rounded conversion factor.

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Rougarou

Yes, for the actual, but in military/NATO, it is 6400.

 

Cammenga Official US Military Tritium Lensatic Compass 21 ...

 

How to use a lensatic compass

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Hosstage

So, you're saying about a mile give or take? (For my wife that could mean 2 blocks or ten miles)

It's funny, I have a friend, was FO for artillery in 'Nam. He could call in strikes from miles away and land them on a village, er, target in just a couple test rounds. Now, he can't even drive to the local Target without his gps giving him step by step turns. He's ok with that!

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Rougarou
4 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

So, you're saying about a mile give or take? (For my wife that could mean 2 blocks or ten miles)

It's funny, I have a friend, was FO for artillery in 'Nam. He could call in strikes from miles away and land them on a village, er, target in just a couple test rounds. Now, he can't even drive to the local Target without his gps giving him step by step turns. He's ok with that!

 

I only got "disoriented" once,......on a land nav course Ft Sherman Panama,........damn that jungle be dark at night,.......like pitch black dark and you got no land marks to steer from,......and the up and down of the draws and fingers, holy cow,.......couldn't follow my azimuth to save my life.

 

I'ma big fan of GPS.  Was remarking several months ago to someone about spending three months in the DC area (Quantico) and driving all over the area with nothing more than an atlas.  Look up where I wanted to go, chunk it in the memory, and head out, arriving at the proper location.  Now when I go to DC area, gps baby, gps......my gps lady tells me where to go.

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Hosstage

My buddy calls her Sarah!

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BrianM
2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Yes, for the actual, but in military/NATO, it is 6400.

 

Cammenga Official US Military Tritium Lensatic Compass 21 ...

 

How to use a lensatic compass

Now it makes sense. Last time I did orienteering, had only degrees. Kind of impressed that radians are used. I have always been for getting rid of degrees (and gradians) and just using radians.

 

Of course it begs the question, why bother having 2 units of measure? Wouldn't it make sense to not have to do any conversions?

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Rougarou
45 minutes ago, BrianM said:

Now it makes sense. Last time I did orienteering, had only degrees. Kind of impressed that radians are used. I have always been for getting rid of degrees (and gradians) and just using radians.

 

Of course it begs the question, why bother having 2 units of measure? Wouldn't it make sense to not have to do any conversions?

 

Degrees for everyday use, mils for more accuracy.  Generally mils are used for artillery, mortar fire due to the enhanced accuracy

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BamaJohn

:lurk:  I thought this thread was about "youth"....so back on subject, my 55 years-of-age daughter said last weekend that I "embarrassed her to death" by telling some stranger (who asked if I was for Alabama or Auburn) that I don't give a s***t about college football.  I gently suggested she better hope that's the worst embarrassment I cause her...:stir:

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Rougarou
1 hour ago, BamaJohn said:

:lurk:  I thought this thread was about "youth"....so back on subject, my 55 years-of-age daughter said last weekend that I "embarrassed her to death" by telling some stranger (who asked if I was for Alabama or Auburn) that I don't give a s***t about college football.  I gently suggested she better hope that's the worst embarrassment I cause her...:stir:

 

That's like when I get asked something about Duke or UNC, I tell them Grambling.

 

 

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RandyShields

At a gas station this evening filling up when I noticed an older Lexus on the other side of the pump still running as the teen driver was getting ready to pump gas.  I leaned around and gently suggested that he needed to turn his car off to fill up.  He said ok and did that, but didn't ask why.  At least he also wasn't smoking.  Surprised dad didn't review the drill with him before he sent him out on his own.

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BrianM
On 9/30/2020 at 4:14 PM, RandyShields said:

At a gas station this evening filling up when I noticed an older Lexus on the other side of the pump still running as the teen driver was getting ready to pump gas.  I leaned around and gently suggested that he needed to turn his car off to fill up.  He said ok and did that, but didn't ask why.  At least he also wasn't smoking.  Surprised dad didn't review the drill with him before he sent him out on his own.

 

Perhaps dad leaves his car running.

 

It is not uncommon (unfortunately) around where I live, especially in the winter (the worst time to do it). Last time I checked, the US had about 1 gas station fire a day.

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RandyShields
2 hours ago, BrianM said:

It is not uncommon (unfortunately) around where I live, especially in the winter (the worst time to do it). Last time I checked, the US had about 1 gas station fire a day.

 

Understand leaving the car running in the winter -- or when the battery is weak and you don't know if you can get it started again (not that this situation has every happened to me in my youth when I was poor and couldn't afford a new battery:() -- but surprised when it is a Lexus and 75 degrees and sunny out.  Yeah, maybe if that was dad's MO, it would certainly explain the situation. 

 

Thinking more about Terry's (realshelby's) observations above, maybe I/we are being too hard and judgmental on this age group.  They are easy targets when you see things like this, but I am feeling a wee bit guilty now about taking shots that may be just the older generation not liking what they see coming up behind us because it is different and unfamiliar.  Kind of like evolving styles of music.  OK, I still don't like rap.

 

 

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wbw6cos

"Now, get off my lawn!"

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Rougarou
11 hours ago, RandyShields said:

 

Understand leaving the car running in the winter -- or when the battery is weak and you don't know if you can get it started again (not that this situation has every happened to me in my youth when I was poor and couldn't afford a new battery:() -- but surprised when it is a Lexus and 75 degrees and sunny out.  Yeah, maybe if that was dad's MO, it would certainly explain the situation. 

 

I must be young, as I leave the truck running sometimes, previous diesels and now both gas trucks.  Not often, but sometimes.

 

 

11 hours ago, RandyShields said:

 

 Kind of like evolving styles of music.  OK, I still don't like rap.

 

 

Do/did you like the below song,.....no matter how you twist it, it is, a rap song ;)

 

 

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taylor1

If that song is considered rap , then I guess any arrangement of musical notes with spoken word is rap   Say it ain't so !!!

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