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Motor32

### 2020 R1250RT Leaking Front Brakes After Recall Videos ###

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Motor32

 

Hey Guys,

I made these 2 videos of the ongoing leaking brake calipers on my 2020 R1250RT, This is my first BMW. In the videos these are new replacement calipers after the recall that still leak. Below is the brief history of my BMW experience.

#1 Prior to purchase was told the 2020's didn't leak = leaking after first ride home.

#2 I've had the rebuild kit installed (600 miles) = still leaking.

#3 Replaced the calipers (6000 miles) = still leaking.

#4 Returned to the dealer and told the fluid leaking was just "residual" under the bleeder caps (6250 miles) = still leaking (even after returning home, days later, still leaking).

Steve
 

 

Second video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InyT6SPUyYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InyT6SPUyYA
 

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041100S

from where the brake fluid drip is it seems that the leak might be from the piston seals themselves. wonder if they have a run where the seals are the incorrect material or installed wrong? doesn't appear from your video that the leak is from the line connection as you don't see or mention a stream of leak from this area. Aren't these calipers from Hayes and not Brembo? Hope they find the problem and fix it as it should not happen with any vehicle and especially one from this manufacturer.

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Motor32
4 minutes ago, 041100S said:

from where the brake fluid drip is it seems that the leak might be from the piston seals themselves. wonder if they have a run where the seals are the incorrect material or installed wrong? doesn't appear from your video that the leak is from the line connection as you don't see or mention a stream of leak from this area. Aren't these calipers from Hayes and not Brembo? Hope they find the problem and fix it as it should not happen with any vehicle and especially one from this manufacturer.

Yes these are Hayes calipers and they have been replaced after fist installing a fix of new seals that still leaked then there was a recall for the calipers and they replace them with the same leaking Hayes units. The rear brake has Brembo's and don't leak.

 

Steve

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Hosstage

Sounds like another trip to the dealer for replacement.

Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. Hopefully they will get you set up properly and don't push it off as acceptable.

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LAF

I would ask to have the bike taken back as a Lemon or have them install Brembos and you will be fine.  That is what I would tell BMW/Dealer.  To have a recall, need a recall, is going to get real interesting real fast.  I would think BMW would consider your request reasonable.

 

I do feel your pain.  My introduction to BMW was a 2007 BMW LT.  After I bought it I read all the horror stories of the FD and seals going out, wetting clutches and costing thousands to repair. 

 

I still hold my breath opening the cylinder head covers on my 17.5 GS every 6K to see if my cams are whole. Just did a 18K and cam and valve check and all was well.

 

Sorry you are where you are at but they really are a great bike.  If they would have just left the Brembo on them, other then the TFT that they resolved with firmware/software, from all I read the 1250 is  nice step forward.

 

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Bighopper

I would write a letter to the Dealer with all the items you have listed in your attempts to have the issue resolved, and also CC to your BMW Motorrad National Office.

I have a friend that had the same issue with a 2019 RT this spring in Canada & it resolved the issue very quickly.

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Motor32
31 minutes ago, lkraus said:

It has taken much too long, but there is an actual recall planned for this problem. 

See https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/BMW/R%25201250%2520RT#recalls

 

Expand the "Associated Documents" for details.

 

Letters to owners will be mailed October 6.

The problem is BMW's fix is still defective and the calipers are still leaking like mine AFTER being replaced from the recall.

 

Steve

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Motor32

Hey Guys,

In this short video (11 seconds) you can hear air getting sucked into the calipers while pumping the brakes, the sucking sound is when the lever is released. The NHTSA is suppose to be talking to BMW today. My bike has been sitting for over three weeks without being rode.

Steve

 

 

 

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Motor32

Hey guys,

 

I just talked to BMW, it looks like they want to inspect the bike on Wednesday the 21st. They said they'll pick up the bike the day before and two BMW engineers will be there when they do the inspection. I asked him if it would be filmed (as I think it should be), but he didn't say that it would be, he wasn't sure. The guy at NHTSA will be on a zoom call while they remove the calipers and are inspected. They're having my bike taken to a dealer where it has never been serviced. They said they'll install new calipers at that time, then deliver my bike back to my home. Fingers crossed they can resolve this.

 

Steve

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Skywagon

good luck...hope this gets taken care of for you soon.  If you have financed it, they may give you comp for the time the bike was unuseable including insurance.....as they should

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Motor32

Hey Guys,

Off to the dealership today. This is the fifth time for the leaking calipers.

Steve

 

 

 

 

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Motor32

So my bike was inspected by two BMW engineers yesterday and also a NHTSA investigator, below is a email from the NHTSA investigator. These are the replacement Hayes calipers from the recall. I've had NO RESPONSE from BMW to any of my emails, amazing!!!!!!!

Steve,

We were able to view the inspection and they confirmed that both calipers were leaking. So now those parts are being sent to Germany for analysis to determine the exact origin(s) and they’ve agreed to update us regularly. They were going to get new calipers for your bike and double check them to confirm there’s no leakage before returning the bike to you.

I can also add that we had them check for any signs of other leaks in the system, all the way from the brake reservoir down to the calipers and the inspector indicated everything was dry. I also had him grip the brake firmly for an extended period to judge whether the leak was fast or slow and it must have been very slow because it didn’t get visibly worse in that short amount of time. He did note that the fluid in the sight glass was only about half way up, but I’m not sure how much fluid loss that represents.

BMW indicated they wanted to make sure the vehicle was checked and ridden by one of their techs to be certain of no leakage before returning it to you, so you may want to ask about what checks they did to ensure that. And of course let us know if you detect anything wrong.

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dirtrider
16 hours ago, Motor32 said:

So my bike was inspected by two BMW engineers yesterday and also a NHTSA investigator, below is a email from the NHTSA investigator. These are the replacement Hayes calipers from the recall. I've had NO RESPONSE from BMW to any of my emails, amazing!!!!!!!

Steve,

We were able to view the inspection and they confirmed that both calipers were leaking. So now those parts are being sent to Germany for analysis to determine the exact origin(s) and they’ve agreed to update us regularly. They were going to get new calipers for your bike and double check them to confirm there’s no leakage before returning the bike to you.

I can also add that we had them check for any signs of other leaks in the system, all the way from the brake reservoir down to the calipers and the inspector indicated everything was dry. I also had him grip the brake firmly for an extended period to judge whether the leak was fast or slow and it must have been very slow because it didn’t get visibly worse in that short amount of time. He did note that the fluid in the sight glass was only about half way up, but I’m not sure how much fluid loss that represents.

BMW indicated they wanted to make sure the vehicle was checked and ridden by one of their techs to be certain of no leakage before returning it to you, so you may want to ask about what checks they did to ensure that. And of course let us know if you detect anything wrong.

Morning   Motor32

 

Your BMW dealer did a lot of things looking for a LEAK but from your earlier posts it looked to me more like you had a seep. 

 

As a rule adding braking  pressure, or riding the motorcycle are not the best ways to find a seep or weep in brake caliper seals.  

 

Over the years, I have seen a number of caliper seeps or weeps,  almost all didn't leak while riding/driving , or pushing hard on the brake pedal/lever, (that usually makes the caliper seals seal tighter).

In most cases the caliper seal seep showed up after a day two with the vehicle parked unattended. That allows the caliper seals to relax a little so they then start seeping. Then add in an ambient temperature change & you get a seep or weep. 

 

You will probably won't know (if) they have your problem eliminated until the bike sits for a few days unused.

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Skywagon

Motor 32....I hope it all works well with new parts.    On your first post items #2 and #3.....seems like this is a repeat of #3 without BMW knowing what the root cause is.  Maybe there was a round of bad machining, bad seals, or ?  As DR suggest...time will tell not squeezing the brakes.  I would politely stay on them every week to see if they can identify the flaw and what with your new systems were done to address the flaw.  I wonder on your new calipers if there is any clue on the manufacturing dates that would be different than your original or #3.  I'm glad they are stepping up for you....as they should.

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Hosstage

Have they provided a loaner bike while this is going on?

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Motor32
1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

Have they provided a loaner bike while this is going on?

Not for a second, my bike has sat in my garage for 6 weeks or so and also at the dealer. This is all I got.

 

Steve

 

Senior Grey-haired Man Image & Photo (Free Trial) | Bigstock

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Hosstage

You are a better man than I.

I've heard lemon laws don't always apply to motorcycles depending on the state, but you would definitely have a case if it does where you are.

Harley is pretty good about giving out loaners, just sayin'....

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dirtrider
19 minutes ago, Motor32 said:

Not for a second, my bike has sat in my garage for 6 weeks or so and also at the dealer. This is all I got.

 

Steve

 

Senior Grey-haired Man Image & Photo (Free Trial) | Bigstock

 

19 minutes ago, Motor32 said:

Not for a second, my bike has sat in my garage for 6 weeks or so and also at the dealer. This is all I got.

 

Steve

Evening   Motor32

 

Make sure that you get them to extend your warranty by the amount of time the motorcycle was un-ridable.  If they refuse then send a letter of explanation to your state's attorney general with a copy of that letter to the dealer.

 

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Motor32
14 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

You are a better man than I.

I've heard lemon laws don't always apply to motorcycles depending on the state, but you would definitely have a case if it does where you are.

Harley is pretty good about giving out loaners, just sayin'....

Here in Arizona it does apply.

  1. Does the Lemon Law apply only to passenger vehicles?   The Lemon Law applies not only to passenger vehicles, but also to trucks, SUV’s, vans, motorcycles, and all consumer goods that are covered by a manufacturer’s warranty and are used primarily for personal, family or household use.

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Motor32
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening   Motor32

 

Make sure that you get them to extend your warranty by the amount of time the motorcycle was un-ridable.  If they refuse then send a letter of explanation to your state's attorney general with a copy of that letter to the dealer.

 

 

That's a good point, thanks.

 

Steve

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Hosstage
3 hours ago, Motor32 said:

Here in Arizona it does apply.

  1. Does the Lemon Law apply only to passenger vehicles?   The Lemon Law applies not only to passenger vehicles, but also to trucks, SUV’s, vans, motorcycles, and all consumer goods that are covered by a manufacturer’s warranty and are used primarily for personal, family or household use.

 

I lost count, have they tried and failed to fix this same problem three times, or is this attempt #3?

Either way, if this attempt fails, that may be an option. Or the option.

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Motor32
22 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

 

I lost count, have they tried and failed to fix this same problem three times, or is this attempt #3?

Either way, if this attempt fails, that may be an option. Or the option.

 

I've been to the dealer 5 times and now have 3 sets of calipers that have been on my 6 month old bike, crazy!!!!

 

Steve

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Hosstage

I would say you definitely have grounds for a lemon law claim if you so choose.

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Motor32

Three strikes and your out!!!!! Four days after getting my third set of Hayes calipers installed and they're leaking again. This bike has been in to the dealer five times for the same issue, crazy.

Steve

 

 

 

 

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Hosstage

Wow. Just wow. 

I'm sorry to hear this.

Now what?

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Skywagon

wow just wow...If in your shoes I'm not sure what I would do, but I only see two options I personally would explore.  If you love THIS bike other than brakes, I would ask them to Brembo it if they fit.  I don't know if they do or not.  My second option is full refund and no sheet about mileage deduction.  I hope it doesn't spoil you on the brand as the wetheads have been a really good bike.  Keep us posted and we are all pulling for you.

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Motor32
7 hours ago, Skywagon said:

wow just wow...If in your shoes I'm not sure what I would do, but I only see two options I personally would explore.  If you love THIS bike other than brakes, I would ask them to Brembo it if they fit.  I don't know if they do or not.  My second option is full refund and no sheet about mileage deduction.  I hope it doesn't spoil you on the brand as the wetheads have been a really good bike.  Keep us posted and we are all pulling for you.

 

This has been a very unfortunate experience and I think it's time to explore other avenues. 

 

Steve

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Carlisja
1 hour ago, Motor32 said:

This has been a very unfortunate experience and I think it's time to explore other avenues. 

 

Steve

I plan to swap my Hayes calipers out for Brembos off a wrecked 2018.   I have 18,000 miles on the Hays with no leakage.    Do you want them to replace your leaking ones?

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Motor32
5 hours ago, Carlisja said:

I plan to swap my Hayes calipers out for Brembos off a wrecked 2018.   I have 18,000 miles on the Hays with no leakage.    Do you want them to replace your leaking ones?

 

Thanks for the offer but I'll see what the NHTSA investigators want me to do first, sad.

 

Steve  

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wbw6cos

How many days did the dealer let the bike sit after installing that 3rd set of calipers? 

 

How long did you let the bike sit at your place before the leak showed up? 

 

Did you ride it any?

 

Since your bike is on the radar, one would have thought the dealer would have made sure the calipers were good to go before releasing the bike back to you.  :dontknow:

 

Just dayamm.

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Motor32
4 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

How many days did the dealer let the bike sit after installing that 3rd set of calipers? 

 

How long did you let the bike sit at your place before the leak showed up? 

 

Did you ride it any?

 

Since your bike is on the radar, one would have thought the dealer would have made sure the calipers were good to go before releasing the bike back to you.  :dontknow:

 

Just dayamm.

 

The dealer had the bike for three days after they put the new calipers on, that they had on the shelf. I had the bike home for four days before I saw the leak. I did ride it about 50 miles and had no problems.

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Motor32

Here's part 2 from today with the right side now leaking also after getting my third set of Hayes calipers installed, five times at the dealer for this.

Steve

 

 

 

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LAF

If you like the bike tell them you want Brembo's on the front and your fine.

 

If BMW wont do it then walk away, whole.  Tell them you will need reimbursed for any loss you have inured.  That would be time, travel, loss of use, interest paid, and all taxes and closing costs on the bike.

 

I agree with you there are a lot of other Avenues out there to explore. 

 

I just love my GS, more then my RT, and I loved that as much or more then my LT.  But I have owned other brands and while none of them came close to a BMW, the current line of bikes from EVERYONE are very nice and I would have no problem finding another bike to ride..

 

If it was me and the NHTSA was my witness I would inform BMW this is what will make me happy, otherwise you will retain counsel and drag BMW through the mud.  You have a much better chance then the normal Joe, you got a big powerful witness.

 

Again if you like the bike, and you trust and like your dealer, tell them to put brembo's on it, if no to those questions then bail and look at other Avenues after your made completely whole.  It appears that your "seep" would not be detected by a test ride or even overnight sitting so I would not be too hard on your dealer.  Especial if I understand this was a completely different dealer?

 

My 15 RT weeped coolant at 400 miles, just a few drops.  I loved and trusted my dealer and he said look, let it go and see if it gets worse or the seal seats and seals itself.  Now I am not a very trusting guy but I trusted him.  His logic was while it is easy to do you still break a factory seal to get to it.  But his biggest concern was you are replacing a bad part with one that very well is bad, and could be worse.  On my 15 it was just a hole on the side of the motor, no fitting with a tube to hide it under the side stand like they do now.  By 600 mile check up it was gone and never leaked a drop after that.  So BAD parts in the pipe line are going to bite everyone in the rear on this one.  

 

I feel your pain and would not see any reason for you to stay with the brand other then it truly is the best bike I have ever ridden.

 

You could always try your luck on the new R 18 I have not looked but I bet that big boxer is wearing brembo brakes:classic_biggrin:

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MikeB60

I had a 04 RT that BMW bought back.  It had a slight miss that they could not figure out after throwing a ton of new parts at and sent a tech from New Jersey twice to troubleshoot. It was down for at least three months. The dealer contacted BMW NA and I had a check within a week. Might be the next step. 

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Motor32

 

 

I do think that may be next.

 

Steve

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Motor32

 

Today Nov 10, the dealer is picking up my bike to remove the third set of leaking Hayes calipers and installing my fourth set. I've had my bike 7 months and two of them it's sat parked because of this ongoing issue, sad.

Steve

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Skywagon

Steve... you are incredibly patient... way more than me.  There is no way I would do it a 4th time unless they could show me the engineering data to what they fixed. Without a root cause and cure they are just throwing darts. For me I would insist on Brembo or a known cure. Not sure if you follow MotoGP or not. Yamaha tried Hayes on a couple test bikes and after problems they returned to Brembo

 

i wish you luck and hope they find the problem, but suspect # 5 won’t be far behind

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Motor32

 

BMW offered to buy it back but I would also have to return my FREE top case (A $2000 value). I figured if I could keep it going until the 2021 comes out and maybe they'll have Brembos or have figured it out by then. Then I'll be able to use my current top case on the new bike. I'm sure these new calipers will also fail as the last ones, I got to ride about 50 miles then four days after the calipers when installed they started leaking. I've filed three complaints with the NHTSA for each of the calipers I've had on and have been in close contact with the investigators there.

 

Steve

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Paul De

At this point maybe you can work out a deal with Dealer and the BMW regional service manager to have Brembos from an earlier year installed.  Those parts should be R&R compatible.  On their dime of course.

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dirtrider
22 hours ago, Paul De said:

At this point maybe you can work out a deal with Dealer and the BMW regional service manager to have Brembos from an earlier year installed.  Those parts should be R&R compatible.  On their dime of course.

Morning Paul

 

That would be a hard sell as BMW would first have to re-certify & durability test that the Brembo calipers would be compatible with the ABS calibrations that are in the motorcycle now.  

 

Something as simple as caliper brand change could change the ABS read-ahead pre-lock-up release or change the re-apply vs pressure timing.    

 

It's possible that BMW is now, or already has done some ABS certification & calibration  testing with the Brembo's so has either OK'd the present ABS calibrations as safe, or possibly has a new ABS calibration in the pipe. 

 

In any case, a BMW dealer couldn't just swap on Brembo's without authorization from BMW, & BMW surly wouldn't authorize this  without some ABS testing & calibration verifications. 

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Motor32

Another thing is the leaking runs down the rim between the tire bead and the rim. I know brake fluid is corrosive and how long until this rears it's head. This issue has been going on for over a year for BMW and now finally the NHTSA is holding their feet to the fire. 

 

Steve

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Paul De

I was wondering about that too. At some point some paint somewhere could take a hit.  Bet BMW would never warranty for that collateral damage. The buy back option is looking better with each month this doesn't get fixed.   I feel for your plight and at the same time selfish me is happy I didn't get all crazed up and trade in my 2015 for a Shiftcam with more ponies, smarter ABS brain, and smoother transmission.  With the ongoing issue you are dealing would have had me with a restraining order by now for not playing nice with other people.

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Motor32

I've been screaming about the leaking Hayes calipers since my first ride home and they were leaking. After 6 times to the dealer and 4 sets of Hayes calipers in 7 months plus 3 complaints to the NHTSA that helped getting a recall going, to now with a "Stop Sale" after the recalled fixed calipers were also leaking, maybe we'll see a real fix or a "Stop Ride" issued.

 

Steve

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JamesW

I would have lost my mind months ago.  Seems like with BMW there is just no end.  I've become kind of hooked on the Utube Smoaks Vlogs.  Smoaks is a BMW mechanic at a Vancouver, WA dealer.  Last night he was discussing how he needs a BMW shop tool to work on several models of new bikes just to change oil. Trouble is this tool costs about $1K.  You can jerry rig a scissor jack but one really needs the tool.  Now, wouldn't that be just great for the do-it-yourself guy?  

 

I don't care how great the newer BMWs ride I'll take a pass.  Complexity just for the sake of same doesn't get it, imo.  I can't believe 4 sets of brake calipers.  If that happened to me I would be so pissed I would probably end up flat on the floor chewing on the carpet.

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Motor32
22 minutes ago, JamesW said:

I would have lost my mind months ago.  Seems like with BMW there is just no end.  I've become kind of hooked on the Utube Smoaks Vlogs.  Smoaks is a BMW mechanic at a Vancouver, WA dealer.  Last night he was discussing how he needs a BMW shop tool to work on several models of new bikes just to change oil. Trouble is this tool costs about $1K.  You can jerry rig a scissor jack but one really needs the tool.  Now, wouldn't that be just great for the do-it-yourself guy?  

 

I don't care how great the newer BMWs ride I'll take a pass.  Complexity just for the sake of same doesn't get it, imo.  I can't believe 4 sets of brake calipers.  If that happened to me I would be so pissed I would probably end up flat on the floor chewing on the carpet.

 

Trust me I am at my whits end over this, this may be my next step, still an improvement to Hayes calipers.

 

Steve

 

dd3e4ebbf8ee9a27937e1ae4b1fd1396.jpg

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Motor32

I just returned from the dealer with my FOURTH set of Hayes calipers in 7 months, they also replaced the rim. The clock is ticking on these to start leaking, stay tuned.

Steve

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wbw6cos

Good luck!

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TEWKS

Hard to believe this crap has spilled over into the 2021 model year. I looked at this awesome GSA today but I couldn’t take delivery even if I offered them a million bucks for it. (I didn’t offer anything) There’s a “Stop sale order” till they figure out this unfortunate Hayes brake issue. 
 

99639CBE-C473-46A9-891C-3CD9BBA49DC3.jpeg

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