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chrisolson

Would you / Will you take a Covid-19 vaccine?

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chrisolson

So here is the assumption :

  1. A Covid-19  vaccine has completed a Phase Three clinical trial.
  2. A scientific review of the data indicates it is safe and effective
  3. The FDA approves it for general / widespread use
  4. The government subsidizes the cost for injections so there is no personal out of pocket expense.

 

Given those conditions would you / will you take the vaccine ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently 1/3 of folks surveyed wouldn't 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/317018/one-three-americans-not-covid-vaccine.aspx

 

 

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eddd

In a heart beat.  The crazy non-vac minority aside, I can't see what would hold back 33% of the population given what this virus has cost us in lives, health, economy, and quality of life.

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Twisties

Given those assumptions, certainly.  In the real world I am pro-vax in general, and certainly want this over... plenty of incentive.  But I will wait to be sure it is safe before jumping in.... the rush has me a bit worried, and some of these trial vaccines are novel in concept and action.

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realshelby

I and my wife would. 

But I can tell you that two of our friends have already said they are not taking any vaccines.......

 

There has been a major disservice to health care by the fanatical idiots that proclaim vaccines are harmful......I am trying to be nice when saying that!

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Hosstage

I and my wife definitely would.

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Red

My sleeve is already rolled up.  I read yesterday that it's going to take quite a while to crank out meaningful amounts of vaccine.  The US may not be able to administer vaccine to all those who want it by even the end of 2021.  That doesn't bode well for motorcycle group functions next summer like national and state MOA rallys.  There's a group trying to come to consensus on priority certain groups are.  BMW riders are not one of the groups under consideration.:4316:   Health care, EMS, over 65, nursing home residents, compromised immune systems, diabetics, people in the food production/ processing industry.  And that's just in our country.  Then you have to sort out how much to share with other countries.  'Public health officials' estimate there are 100 million people in the US that are essential workers.  CDC estimates the initial roll out of vaccines will be on the magnitude of 10 to 20 million doses available.  Astra Zeneca, Pfizer, and Moderna have vaccines, that if all goes well, could be green lighted by end of October.  Astra Zeneca had inked a deal with Chinese manufacturer Shenzhen Kangtal Biolgical Products to crank out 100 million doses by end of 2020 and 200 million by end of 2021.  But how much of that swims back across the pond to US and how much stays in China?  So much for reducing dependency on foreign production of US drug supply.  Just learned recently that 80% of our aspirin or compounds to make our aspirin are produced in China and there has been local shortages.  We need to kick this foreign drug dependency.   My info source for this was Friday 7 August 2020 Wall St Urinal.

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mickeym3

My wife and I will get in line for them. People can be easily controlled by fear which of course is why so many media outlets peddle it so much but if vaccines successfully pass trials and gain approval I’m all in.  Trustworthy medical experts carry more weight with me than all the idiots peddling crap. I’m just about done with FB, if people dare express dismay about people not wearing masks in businesses that have a mandatory mask policy the masses turn on them like rabid dogs. Apparently the simplest courtesy extended toward the aged or compromised individuals would just be too much for them to bear. Folks think they’re entitled to act like the President or something. I got news for them, karma is a bitch. 
 

We may be in trouble if the WHO is in charge of distribution!  Thanks Donald!

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szurszewski

Those assumptions assumed, we all

would. 

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bwpsg42

absolutely, no issues.

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Bud

YES!!!

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Scarecrow
3 hours ago, Twisties said:

Given those assumptions, certainly.  In the real world I am pro-vax in general, and certainly want this over... plenty of incentive.  But I will wait to be sure it is safe before jumping in.... the rush has me a bit worried, and some of these trial vaccines are novel in concept and action.

 

+1. 

 

I will go for it.  My wife however has problems with receiving vaccines due to an underlying condition.  She was advised to skip all vaccines and even though I usually get a flu shot, she needs to avoid them. 

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chrisolson
1 hour ago, szurszewski said:

Those assumptions assumed, we all

would. 

 

And yet with basically the same scenario, apparently a significant percentage of the American public at large doesn't agree ... or a least .... "The survey says ..... "  ( with apologies to Family Feud) :cool: .

 

I had to assume that before a proper FDA approval that steps 1 and two would / had to be completed. 

 

I don't believe, even with the gigantic push and political need of the current President to show progress in this pandemic that we, as a nation, would proceed on a national level without FDA approval.

 

It was also assumed that the FDA approval would not be rushed or politically compromised.  This may be wishful thinking given the coming election.

 

It would be a dangerous and odious precedent if political considerations triumphed over medical and ethical considerations.

 

Governmental subsidy was also assumed since otherwise a rich vs poor scenario would arise which would be politically difficult to manage.  

 

 

 

 

However, comments / additions /   changes in the base assumptions such as a real or perceived "rush" to FDA approval or potential cost for vaccine are welcomed to further the discussion.  

 

 

 

 

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Lester V
4 hours ago, Twisties said:

Given those assumptions, certainly.  In the real world I am pro-vax in general, and certainly want this over... plenty of incentive.  But I will wait to be sure it is safe before jumping in.... the rush has me a bit worried, and some of these trial vaccines are novel in concept and action.

We would take the vaccine, but prefer doing it only once.  With 160 types either in trial or soon to be, maybe we will wait for a bit to see if some are better than others. Say in June next, before the UN?

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szurszewski
53 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

And yet with basically the same scenario, apparently a significant percentage of the American public at large doesn't agree ... or a least ....

Sorry - that was vague of me. I meant we as me, Laura and Jeremiah (my wife and son) - not we as in the US or all humans or whatever. I barely understand myself most times and would not presume to speak for any group. 

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chrisolson
4 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

Sorry - that was vague of me. I meant we as me, Laura and Jeremiah (my wife and son) - not we as in the US or all humans or whatever. I barely understand myself most times and would not presume to speak for any group. 

 

LOL ... no I knew what you meant by "we" ... it was that I took your comment to mean the assumptions were too easy .... that the choice was obvious ... hence the Survey Says comments to indicate that obvious is apparently not all that obvious.:5146:

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Paul De

My wife and I just had this discussion and given the assumptions you posed, yes, absolutely both of us would.  Sorry to be so blunt, but the nonvaxer folks are being stupid and you can't fix that. 

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Selden

Are you kidding me? I am old enough to remember polio epidemics, iron lungs, the March of Dimes, and standing in line to get vaccinated. 

 

I turned 74 this year. I have been hospitalized multiple times for asthma and pneumonia. Six years ago I was diagnosed with bronchiectasis. Several thousand dollars of meds a year keep everything under control. Two years ago I got a sinus infection that took 6 weeks and 4 different antibiotics to clear. As soon as medical professionals are all vaccinated, I would gladly roll up my sleeve, even if the vaccine is rated at only 60-70% effective.

 

I just hope I am still alive when a safe and effective vaccine becomes widely available.

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BrianM

I wonder how many schools and work places would require a vaccine?

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chrisolson

 

2 minutes ago, BrianM said:

I wonder how many schools and work places would require a vaccine?

 

That's a tangential question .... what to do with folks that refuse ...

 

My proposal would be .... "Ok, no problem we're not going to force you to take a vaccine"

 

.... BUT ....

 

If you get sick with what the vaccine would have prevented and require medical attention YOU PAY ALL THE COSTS ... no insurance ... no Medicare .... no Medicaid ... NO NOTHING .... YOU _PAY_ IT_ ALL ...

 

OH and  remember .... it was your choice !!

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szurszewski
55 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

If you get sick with what the vaccine would have prevented and require medical attention YOU PAY ALL THE COSTS ... no insurance ... no Medicare .... no Medicaid ... NO NOTHING .... YOU _PAY_ IT_ ALL ...

 

OH and  remember .... it was your choice !!

 

 

THAT is a slippery slope particularly coming from someone who rides a motorcycle....

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chrisolson
47 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

 

 

THAT is a slippery slope particularly coming from someone who rides a motorcycle....

 

Interesting ... I suppose that you might say riding a motorcycle is willfully putting yourself at risk , so if you have an accident its up to you to pay  ...  I see it more like if the government  offered me a free Helite vest and I chose not to wear it and then crashed and was hospitalized for something  the Helite would have prevented , but hey, I chose not to wear it ... then yes,  I'd still be in the U pay camp.  

 

 

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szurszewski

I appreciate your analogy and understand what you’re saying. But the fancy vest only makes you safer from a specific and voluntary high risk activity (riding a motorcycle); these theoretical anti covid vaccine folks are not specifically choosing such an activity. 
 

A better analogy might be, motorcycling without that airbag vest would be like going to the Sturgis rally without being vaccinated first. 

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chrisolson
2 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

A better analogy might be, motorcycling without that airbag vest would be like going to the Sturgis rally without being vaccinated first. 

Yep ... that works. Its a personal choice that has consequences ... which I think is part of the problem ... personal responsibility seems to be a foreign concept for a lot of folks today.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
6 hours ago, chrisolson said:

Interesting ... I suppose that you might say riding a motorcycle is willfully putting yourself at risk , so if you have an accident its up to you to pay 

 

I suspect most of the accidental injuries that need medical attention are due to willful decisions to put oneself at risk.  Power tools, power sports, contact sports, unpowered tools, buying and using a home with stairs in it, wearing a ring (google "degloving injury"), cutting vegetables (google "avocado hand")...the list goes on and on.  

 

I already talked elsewhere about what I think is the main problem of not vaccinating, i.e. contributing to the risk of an outbreak that sickens or kills others; google for news articles about "whooping cough outbreak" or "measles outbreak," and you'll see what I mean.  

 

As for your hypothetical, the statement of "A scientific review of the data indicates it is safe and effective" carries a lot of room for uncertainty.  Although it's hypothetically possible for something to be 100% effective, I don't believe any vaccine has ever met that spec - and of course nothing is ever 100% safe.  That said, if the FDA has approved it for public distribution, it's probably very safe and adequately effective - although one might reasonably be concerned that in this particular case, it may have been rushed out the door without the usual level of certainty on either parameter.  Fortunately for those of us in the general public, the vaccine is likely to be distributed to at-risk subpopulations first, like front-line health care workers and the elderly.  So if there are unusual risks that didn't get caught during trials, they'll probably manifest in these subgroups before the vaccine is made available for me.

 

Even if that weren't the case, I would take it.

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Paul De

The analogy about choice and motorcycle riding, wearing an air vest misses a key point to the vaccination of a population. The missing part is that an individuals choice not to vaccinate not only puts that individual at risk, but others are put at risk as well.  In herd immunity enough of the population has resistance to the disease that the "bug" can't get a foothold and provides protection to the few with a ligitamate reason that are not vaccinated (newborns/too young, some other disqualifying underlying health condition, or the few where the vaccine just doesn't produce an immune response in them).  Me riding a motorcycle and not wearing air vest only adds to my risk.

 

47 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

So if there are unusual risks that didn't get caught during trials, they'll probably manifest in these subgroups before the vaccine is made available for me.

This is the part that worries me with some of the accelerated testing being proposed (e.g. a challenge test protocol) where they would screen out more vulnerable volunteers which could come back to bite in the form of bad reactions in those more vulnerable  subgroups

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Hosstage
8 hours ago, chrisolson said:

 

Interesting ... I suppose that you might say riding a motorcycle is willfully putting yourself at risk , so if you have an accident its up to you to pay  ...  I see it more like if the government  offered me a free Helite vest and I chose not to wear it and then crashed and was hospitalized for something  the Helite would have prevented , but hey, I chose not to wear it ... then yes,  I'd still be in the U pay camp.  

 

 

Put on your black pajamas and get in line for morning exercises.

If you let the government choose the way you participate in the activities you enjoy, eventually you will not be allowed to do those activities, problem solved.

Remember too, the the government is you. If you can tell people exactly how to live, they can tell you exactly how to live. 

Having said that, if a vaccination is proven safe and effective, it should probably be mandatory for kids to get into public school for the most part, much like other vaccines.

 

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Rougarou
2 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

  So if there are unusual risks that didn't get caught during trials, they'll probably manifest in these subgroups before the vaccine is made available for me.

 

Never buy a first year production vehicle :18:

 

 

Anyway, being from the military, I've taken shots that were "rumored" not to be FDA approved,....if it comes out, and I find the time, I'll get one, don't expect an out of the way trip though.  I think when it does come, my company will eventually have needle pokers on site to administer.

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Paul De

I don't get why there is a kerfuffle that health/safety policy/laws interfere with civil liberties.  Federal government has a roll in public health in the same way it does with our common defense and other public safety rolls. We expect our roads to be designed in a way that allows for safe travel, our food not to be tainted, the air and water to not make us sick, and we all for the most part accept that the government gets this done,  In fact we only are screaming about it when the government fails to manage it well and the idea of personal rights/choice and civil liberties is not part of that conversation. Curiously when the federal and state government takes action in controlling infectious disease by mandating mass vaccination, it is a bridge too far.  It defies logic for me.

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Hosstage

With the way people are bitching about wearing a mask, mandatory vaccinations are going to be damn near impossible.

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Skywagon

Yes... Can't wait.  Wife and I have not been in any buildings at all since March.  Curbside everything.  Tired of it.  Lost a year of our lives in our first year of retirement.  Don't want to lose a 2nd.  On my right arm there is still a round scar from some vaccination as a kid. I don't remember which one because I'm sure I was crying my eyes out before the shot.  I think it was polio but not sure....Remember....Remember when you could not be admitted to school without proof of required vaccinations?  No vaccination...no school...Hmmm no vaccination no unemployment....no relief check...  Suspect that 33% would be drastically reduced.

 

 

New Zealand, a modern small island nation, has become an emblematic champion of proper prevention and response to the coronavirus 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic.
Leading into this weekend, the country of approximately 5 million has just 2 dozen active COVID-19 cases—a full month after having reported absolutely none, on the backbone of strict initial travel policies, science-based government action, and strategies responsive to testing limitations.


 

 

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lawnchairboy

Those of us in healthcare will not have a choice in the matter, having said that, I would most definitely be vaccinated.

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AZgman

Yes for my entire family 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
2 hours ago, Skywagon said:

On my right arm there is still a round scar from some vaccination as a kid. I don't remember which one because I'm sure I was crying my eyes out before the shot.  I think it was polio but not sure....

 

Probably smallpox.

 

image.png.637160be0e027777e1de7556037cc973.png

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Rougarou
25 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

 

Yep, got it as kid, then again in 1986 boot camp and then 2004 prior to going to Iraq due to suspicion that they had the virus and would use it.

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Skywagon

yep thats the one....

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Twisties
5 hours ago, Skywagon said:

No vaccination...no school...Hmmm no vaccination no unemployment....no relief check...  Suspect that 33% would be drastically reduced.


I'd be even more restrictive.  Certainly, empower employers to require as a condition of employment, at a minimum.

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Bud
8 hours ago, Paul De said:

I don't get why there is a kerfuffle that health/safety policy/laws interfere with civil liberties.  Federal government has a roll in public health in the same way it does with our common defense and other public safety rolls. We expect our roads to be designed in a way that allows for safe travel, our food not to be tainted, the air and water to not make us sick, and we all for the most part accept that the government gets this done,  In fact we only are screaming about it when the government fails to manage it well and the idea of personal rights/choice and civil liberties is not part of that conversation. Curiously when the federal and state government takes action in controlling infectious disease by mandating mass vaccination, it is a bridge too far.  It defies logic for me.

 

mask.jpg

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Selden
20 hours ago, BrianM said:

I wonder how many schools and work places would require a vaccine?

 

When I was in elementary school (a long, long time ago), I couldn't go to school if my shots weren't up to date.  For that matter, when I became a student at University of North Georgia 2 years ago, there was a hold on my registration because they needed proof of a tetanus vaccination. This requirement dates back more than 100 years, has been upheld in the Supreme Court, so it should count as "settled law" with stare decisis applicable. Of course, that won't stop the anti-vaxxers.

 

Quote

Legally mandated vaccination emerged in the US in the late 19th century during a smallpox epidemic in Massachusetts. The Supreme Court upheld a Massachusetts law in 1905, ruling that state police powers include the right to protect the public against infectious disease by enacting universal vaccination requirements, paving the way for all states to adopt immunization legislation. Laws requiring vaccination for school entry were upheld in 1922 by the Supreme Court.

 

Sourcehttps://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/school-vaccination-laws/2003-11

 

Related to the current pandemic, I am not returning to classes this fall. Policy for distance learning vs on campus classes is still up in the air, but I am expecting many students to physically return to campus and dorms before classes begin next week. As has already started happening with public schools, it's reasonable to assume that some in the returning student population (and perhaps faculty and staff) will test positive. With ~7500 students at UNG, outbreaks seem inevitable.

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szurszewski
2 hours ago, Bud said:

 

mask.jpg


Some people are certainly against all those other things as well. 

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Bud

Yah but they do them.  They don't claim a constitutional right to fly and  not follow flight crew instructions.

 

Try to smoke in a plane lavatory and see how that works out. :3: 

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chrisolson

 

A few other "rights" being infringed  ... :cool:

 

 

Want to  drive (right to free movement)... need a government license and pay a fee

Want to register a vehicle (right to free movement, again)  ... not without  insurance , required by government (at least in Arizona)

Want to build a house within a city limit (right to shelter) ... need multiple governmental approvals

Want to hunt, fish (right for recreation) ...need a government license and pay a fee

Want to fly an airplane (right to have fun) ..need a government license (thankfully)

 

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scout6
On 8/10/2020 at 8:47 AM, Rougarou said:

 

Never buy a first year production vehicle :18:

 

 

Anyway, being from the military, I've taken shots that were "rumored" not to be FDA approved,....if it comes out, and I find the time, I'll get one, don't expect an out of the way trip though.  I think when it does come, my company will eventually have needle pokers on site to administer.

I have had some vaccinations that were not FDA approved.  There is/was a provision that the Department of Defense could skip the approval route during war time, for the good of the service.  Not that I will not get the vaccination.  I already suffer from burn pit exposure.  Lungs need all the help they can get.

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szurszewski
On 8/10/2020 at 7:15 PM, Bud said:

Yah but they do them.  They don't claim a constitutional right to fly and  not follow flight crew instructions.

 

Try to smoke in a plane lavatory and see how that works out. :3: 

 

Some people do do them and some don't, and many do complain about constitutional violations when they are told they have to comply - including a really bizarre day where I witnessed a man incensed that his second amendment rights were being violated while he was trying enter a prison - just to visit!

 

 

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Twisties
On 8/9/2020 at 12:52 PM, chrisolson said:

Apparently 1/3 of folks surveyed wouldn't 

 

It's apparently getting worse....  and with Trump pushing vax, surprisingly GOP are more resistant to the idea...

Report of New Survey 

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Mike

Absolutely will . . . and the sooner, the better. 

I always get flu shots, though I realize that it’s less than 100%. I’m old, and with a health history that dictates it’s wise, I wouldn’t skip it. Same with this latest virus du jour. My wife and I travel frequently, run a travel business, and it’s simply going to be a matter of necessity, at least in the near term, to travel internationally.

Having said that, none of this diminishes my belief that the panic over the virus has been vastly overblown, to the detriment of pretty much everyone on the planet.

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scout6

Okay folks, isn't an untested vaccine the cause for the Zombie Apocalypse in most stories?  Load up on ammo!  ;-)

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