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Alba

02' 1150RT Sudden loss of power and will not start

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Alba

I'm hoping for some guidance getting my RT backup and running.

 

I was riding my bike home and while slowing down for a set of traffic lights the bike cut out, no pre-notification of an issue. Switched the ignition off & on bike restarted, drove couple of minutes to the next set of lights, stopped prepared to pull away and she stopped on me. Again ignition off & on (I noticed the rev counter needle rotate variably to max 12 o'clock and then return to zero) tried to restart, engine turned over but would not start.

 

The recovery driver checked for a spark at the spark plug and there was none (left plug checked), bike has been recovered to my garage.

 

This morning I turned on the ignition heard the normal whizz but unexpectedly there was a faint 'puff' noise.  Turned the ignition off & on, heard the expected whizz but no 'puff' but unexpectedly I heard a second whizz noise, then again and after a few seconds another whizz.  The timing between the whizz noise varies and the length of the whizz noise is marginally different.

 

The ABS unit has been removed.

 

Any guidance on what this home mechanic should do?  Electrics will take me into a new realm but willing to learn.

 

Thanks in advance.

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dirtrider
3 hours ago, Alba said:

I'm hoping for some guidance getting my RT backup and running.

 

I was riding my bike home and while slowing down for a set of traffic lights the bike cut out, no pre-notification of an issue. Switched the ignition off & on bike restarted, drove couple of minutes to the next set of lights, stopped prepared to pull away and she stopped on me. Again ignition off & on (I noticed the rev counter needle rotate variably to max 12 o'clock and then return to zero) tried to restart, engine turned over but would not start.

 

The recovery driver checked for a spark at the spark plug and there was none (left plug checked), bike has been recovered to my garage.

 

This morning I turned on the ignition heard the normal whizz but unexpectedly there was a faint 'puff' noise.  Turned the ignition off & on, heard the expected whizz but no 'puff' but unexpectedly I heard a second whizz noise, then again and after a few seconds another whizz.  The timing between the whizz noise varies and the length of the whizz noise is marginally different.

 

The ABS unit has been removed.

 

Any guidance on what this home mechanic should do?  Electrics will take me into a new realm but willing to learn.

 

Thanks in advance.

Morning  Alba

 

Not really enough info to tell you anything absolutely.  

 

On the whizz noises, is that the normal fuel pump noise that you are talking about?

 

If so and the whizz is randomly coming on & off without turning the ignition key on & off, plus the random stalling, plus the lack of spark, sort of points to an HES (Hall Effect Sensor) problem.

 

At least the HES is a good place to start your troubleshooting. 

 

Not a lot of 1150 HES failures but there have been a few so HES failure is sure possible. 

 

There was also a short run of 1150 motorcycles that had a poorly heat treated HES harness clip that could break & allow the HES wire pig tail to rub through (that clip is under the front plastic belt cover) -- Might be worth a look but that problem was mostly on the 2003 1150 motorcycles.

 

Kind of difficult to diagnose the HES at home without a good working knowledge of the HES operation & testing  equipment. 

 

You can sometimes use the motorcycle tachometer, if it acts erratic while cranking the engine on the starter. 

 

 

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Alba

 

dirtrider "On the whizz noises, is that the normal fuel pump noise that you are talking about?" - yes

 

I also found a fault diagnosis, see below, which gives me further confidence to suspect the HES.

 

"Difficulty starting" - post the initial sudden power loss it took a few presses of the starter for the engine to fire

"sudden engine shut down" - yes

"no fuel pressure' - i did not check for this

"no spark" - yes

"bouncing tachometer' - on restart at first stoppage

"The engine will usually restart and run after it cools down overnight" - it did indeed restart this afternoon

 

I watched the YouTube below and my only concern is the TDC check which he uses a custom built unit, is there another way to do this?

 

 

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Jim Moore
1 hour ago, Alba said:

I watched the YouTube below and my only concern is the TDC check which he uses a custom built unit, is there another way to do this?

 

 

He WAY overcomplicates that process. Make a mark where the old one was. Put the new one in the same spot. 

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Alba
1 hour ago, Jim Moore said:

He WAY overcomplicates that process. Make a mark where the old one was. Put the new one in the same spot. 

 

That's what I was thinking, would you mark/ reference any particular feature om the HES? (I've never seen in the flesh :))

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dirtrider

Afternoon Alba

 

There is no foolproof easy way to set the 1150 (Ma 2.4)  HES. You can mark it as mentioned above but that works best if you are having your HES re-wired & not installing a new one.

 

If you install a new HES there is room for timing error using the marks as the new one is probably not built exactly the same as the old one was (it should be within a few timing degrees but probably not exactly correct).

 

You can use the fuel pump turn-on point to check the HES but that differs between the 1100 Ma 2.2 & the 1150 Ma 2.4  so you need to use the original (working) HES to figure out how to use that to set the timing. 

 

In any  case, before ordering a new HES you need to access your HES, then look at the end connector as BMW used 2 different HES units on the early 1150 bikes, one had a flat type connector & one had a more oval connector. (you need to determine what connector you have now so you get the correct one).

 

The best approach is to have your HES rewired by a competent HES rebuilder as that has distinct advantages,

 

(1) is cost-- LOT cheaper to have your existing HES rewired.  

 

(2) is testing-- A good HES rebuilder can test your current HES to verify if THAT really was your problem. 

 

(3) is timing, if you have your HES rewired & mark it correctly before removal then your timing will be the exact same as it was before removal. 

 

(4)  The HES sensors themselves  seldom if ever fail, it is wiring that fails not the sensor part-- they need to be rewired with special high temperature insulation wiring to last & be trustworthy.

 

What country do you live in? There is a guy in Canada (GS addict) that does a fantastic job rewiring the HES to better then new & at a reasonable price to boot. 

 

If you mark yours for REPLACEMENT then you must mark it along the outer edges as anything marked on the HES itself will be gone on the new HES plate. If you are having yours rewired then you can mark (scribe)  it across & along the HES plate then onto the front cover in a few places (then just simply line the marks back up at reassembly).

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Alba

dirtrider, I am in Scotland and looking at https://boxer-upgrades.webs.com/apps/webstore/ as you are suggesting it's safer to refurbish than to buy new.  I would be OK with sending to Canada if they have a better reputation.

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dirtrider
8 minutes ago, Alba said:

dirtrider, I am in Scotland and looking at https://boxer-upgrades.webs.com/apps/webstore/ as you are suggesting it's safer to refurbish than to buy new.  I would be OK with sending to Canada if they have a better reputation.

Afternoon Alba

 

I can't say if one has a better reputation than the other as I am only familiar with GS Addict in Canada. GS addict does do good work with high end components.  

 

You will probably get a good job from either one so maybe see who is quickest & cheapest.

 

You can try E-Mailing GS addict, last E-Mail address I have for him is------ arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca    

 

 

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Jim Moore
1 hour ago, Alba said:

 

That's what I was thinking, would you mark/ reference any particular feature om the HES? (I've never seen in the flesh :))

 

I can't remember exactly where I put it. I think I just drew a line in with a permanent marker along the edge of the old HES and lined up the new one to the same spot.

 

As a note, you can only rotate the HES a few degrees in each direction. If all else fails, just put it in the middle. 

 

Note 2, GSAddict is a member over at AdvRider. I'm not sure if he's a member here or not. He rewired my HES. Did a great job.

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AndyS
16 hours ago, Alba said:

dirtrider, I am in Scotland and looking at https://boxer-upgrades.webs.com/apps/webstore/ as you are suggesting it's safer to refurbish than to buy new.  I would be OK with sending to Canada if they have a better reputation.

Why not just go to MotorWorks or James Sherlock and get a secondhand one.

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Alba

@AndyS MotorWorks replacement units are priced comparable with a refurb unit.  From the reply's replacing the original unit is the 'safer' way to go as I don't have the tool to check the precise alignment of a new unit.

 

Thanks for the heads-up on James Sherlock I've not came across them before.

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AndyS

Where are you getting a refurb unit?

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Dave P

+1 for the GS addict. He rebuilt mine last summer after the RT konked out on the NY Thruway in the rain). It did, I remember,  take a long time to ship, rebuild and ship back- NY to British Columbia to NY. But to me the repair was top notch, he sent me picks of the HES with cooked wiring 

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Alba
On 7/30/2020 at 5:45 PM, AndyS said:

Where are you getting a refurb unit?

 

My plan is to send my original away for refurb.

 

While the bike is off the road with the HES I'm thinking of replacing my brake lines, do you know if there is somewhere in the UK selling stainless steel brake lines for R1150RT's?

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Alba

Another novice question.

 

When removing the pulley the 'brass insert' remained on the HES, see photo below, root cause fault?

 

Is it possible to have a machine shop weld the brass insert to the pulley and I'm good to reinstall?

 

Does the HES unit look damaged?

IMG_2413.JPG

IMG_2416.JPG

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dirtrider
18 minutes ago, Alba said:

Another novice question.

 

When removing the pulley the 'brass insert' remained on the HES, see photo below, root cause fault?

 

Is it possible to have a machine shop weld the brass insert to the pulley and I'm good to reinstall?

 

Does the HES unit look damaged?

 

 

Afternoon Alba

 

I don't understand (brass insert) are you referring to the rotor cup that was inside the rear of the pulley?

 

 That rotor cup gets re-glued to the pulley with something like Black Max or similar.  

 

I can't tell much about the HES from the pictures but if you are sending it out for a re-wiring they should test it at that time. 

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Alba

"I don't understand (brass insert) are you referring to the rotor cup that was inside the rear of the pulley?" - Yes I was referring to the rotor cup

 

"That rotor cup gets re-glued to the pulley with something like Black Max or similar." - if I glue the rotor cup onto the pulley would I need to send the HES to be rewired? 

 

Could the detachment of the rotor cup and pulley be the root cause of the failure?

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Michaelr11

 

1 hour ago, Alba said:
1 hour ago, Alba said:

"That rotor cup gets re-glued to the pulley with something like Black Max or similar." - if I glue the rotor cup onto the pulley would I need to send the HES to be rewired?   Every original HES on  an R1100RT ( and R/RS/GS) has the issue with the incorrect wiring used in the harness.  They should all be repaired or replaced.  They will fail eventually.

 

Could the detachment of the rotor cup and pulley be the root cause of the failure?  The cup has a locator pin that should place it in the correct position. The bolt holding the pulley in place should keep the two pieces together.  If they somehow got moved out of position, then YES that is possible, because the ignition timing would be way off.  It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.  Still say the HES should be rewired anyway.

 

 

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dirtrider
4 hours ago, Alba said:

"I don't understand (brass insert) are you referring to the rotor cup that was inside the rear of the pulley?" - Yes I was referring to the rotor cup

 

"That rotor cup gets re-glued to the pulley with something like Black Max or similar." - if I glue the rotor cup onto the pulley would I need to send the HES to be rewired? 

 

Could the detachment of the rotor cup and pulley be the root cause of the failure?

Afternoon Alba

 

 

Could the detachment of the rotor cup and pulley be the root cause of the failure?-- Yes & no, --- Once assembled correctly with the pulley bolted up tight and with the timing cup tit properly in the crankshaft notch  then as long as the pulley wasn't  removed, or didn't come loose, then that WASN'T your problem.  It only needs to be re-glued if it is loose when the pulley is removed (the re-gluing is for ease of CORRECT reassembly to assure the timing cup tit stays in the crankshaft notch until the pulley is tight)

 

Some early BMW motorcycles didn't have that timing cup glued to the pulley as it came from the factory.  I don't see signs of glue on your pulley so it probably came from the factory with a non-glued-on-timing-cup.   

 

Was the pulley tight on the crankshaft before you removed it????? -- If so & (IF) it ran correctly before,  then your problem lies someplace else (more than likely rotten HES wiring insulation on HES pig tail) 

 

Even with an improperly timed timing cup (loose pulley/slipped timing cup) you will still get a spark, it just won't be at the correct timing.  

 

   

 

 

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Alba

"Was the pulley tight on the crankshaft before you removed it?" - Yes it was tight

 

It makes sense to remove and refurb the HES, thanks

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