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Gregbikes

R1100RS non-starter / fuel pump?

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Gregbikes

Hi, thanks in advance for any info / help any and all can provide. I'm the happy owner of a 2001 R1100RS, much loved - unfortunately of late, rarely ridden.

The motorcycle won't start.

Background: Parked / covered in running condition late October 2019, mostly full tank of gas/ethanol.

Sometime over the winter the bike fell over - clearly pretty hard to the right, judging by collateral damage to brake lever / fairing.

It lay on it's right side for maybe 2 months. Picked up, cleaned up, brake lever replaced. New battery, new air filter (after removing the chipmunk nest)

New tank of gas (siphoned out the remains of what had been in it - clearly a lot had leaked out)

The bike cranks, but won't catch. It's getting air. Pulled plugs, surprisingly un-fouled. It's getting a spark. After cranking, pulled a plug. No raw gas.

Clues: With side stand up, and ignition switch on, the fuel pump does not run. The clock and other stuff in the RID goes on, but the fuel level indicator does not.

I checked fuses - none blown, not sure how to check on / or even which relay in that box under the seat might have something to do with it.

I'm wondering if anyone can point me in a direction - I've no references other than the internet, limited tools, but willing to try...

 

 

 

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fatbob

It’s possible the fuel filter has been blown off of the fuel pump.  The rubber lines in the tank get old and can split or blow off the pump.   It happens often with K1200 series, very similar design.   Look inside the tank when you turn on the key, if you see swirling in the fuel that’s it.   

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jeffyjeff

Does that bike have any sort of bank angle (tip-over) sensor that might need to be reset in order for it to start?  If so, that is the first place I would look.

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Jim Moore

The fuel pump is powered by a four-prong connector on the right side, under the fairing. First thing I'd do is take a look at that connection and see if anything is damaged from the tipover. Then I'd buy an Amazon fuel pump for $60 and replace the current pump.  

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, jeffyjeff said:

Does that bike have any sort of bank angle (tip-over) sensor that might need to be reset in order for it to start?  If so, that is the first place I would look.

Morning  jeffyjeff

 

The 1100RS doesn't have any sort of tip-over sensor.  

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dirtrider
11 hours ago, Gregbikes said:

Hi, thanks in advance for any info / help any and all can provide. I'm the happy owner of a 2001 R1100RS, much loved - unfortunately of late, rarely ridden.

The motorcycle won't start.

Background: Parked / covered in running condition late October 2019, mostly full tank of gas/ethanol.

Sometime over the winter the bike fell over - clearly pretty hard to the right, judging by collateral damage to brake lever / fairing.

It lay on it's right side for maybe 2 months. Picked up, cleaned up, brake lever replaced. New battery, new air filter (after removing the chipmunk nest)

New tank of gas (siphoned out the remains of what had been in it - clearly a lot had leaked out)

The bike cranks, but won't catch. It's getting air. Pulled plugs, surprisingly un-fouled. It's getting a spark. After cranking, pulled a plug. No raw gas.

Clues: With side stand up, and ignition switch on, the fuel pump does not run. The clock and other stuff in the RID goes on, but the fuel level indicator does not.

I checked fuses - none blown, not sure how to check on / or even which relay in that box under the seat might have something to do with it.

I'm wondering if anyone can point me in a direction - I've no references other than the internet, limited tools, but willing to try...

 

 

 

Morning  Gregbikes

 

Not really enough info from you to point you directly at your problem. 

 

The first thing that you need to do is determine if the fuel pump will run. (or it if it isn't running then why is that).

 

So start with the RID-- with key-ON, move the side stand up & down then see if things change on the RID screen (the clock is not effected so discount that part). If you get a RID change then go to next test. 

 

Next, you need to hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds at first key on (note it only runs for 2 seconds then  shuts back off). It won't run again UNTIL you turn the key off for a few seconds then back on (then you get 2 seconds of running again),  OR  the engine is cranking, or running. 

 

Do the above tests then let us know what you have, you might need to go further so will probably need a 12v test light or small voltmeter to test for pump circuit voltages. 

 

It could be a stuck fuel pump impeller from sitting, or a fuel pump plastic output fitting broken  (takes a pretty good tip over to break that but I have seen it happen), or a pump power wire broken, or  pump connector pulled loose, or something else. 

 

 

 

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Gregbikes

Hi all.

Thanks for your input and suggestions - Here’s what I’ve tried so far:

 

Per Fatbob - no swirling, no happy sound of pump when key is turned on with side stand up. External fuel lines seem to be in place / intact. All fittings accounted for.

 

Jeffyjeff: confirmed no tip-over sensor on this model

 

Jim: Looked into connector - intact and in place. That led me further down the path of searching out the wiring diagram and further investigation.

 

Tried swapping out horn / fuel pump relay. No difference / no joy

 

This info may be relevant to suggestion of Dirtrider:

With that 4 pin connector unplugged, I applied 12V+ to green wire (to fuel pump) and 12V- to Brown Wire. Got a click from under the fuel tank, but no happy pump noise.

Applied a test lamp to corresponding pins on other side of that connector
With side stand down, key on, nothing happened.

Side stand up, key on, test lamp comes on for appx 2 seconds, relay clicks off.

 

On the RID: side stand down key on - battery light, neutral light, oil light on
ABS system lights blink, display shows no info.

Side stand up key on - all lights as above, display shows 0:00 on clock, VDO 0,
No oil temp info, no fuel level indication.
As mentioned above, test lamp plugged into pins 1 and 2 of fuel system electrical connector lights for 2 seconds, then clicks off.

 

I'm still cleaning acorns, spiderwebs and other junk out of the spaces around / under wire harnesses and fuel tank...

 

Thanks everyone.

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Gregbikes said:

Hi all.

Thanks for your input and suggestions - Here’s what I’ve tried so far:

 

Per Fatbob - no swirling, no happy sound of pump when key is turned on with side stand up. External fuel lines seem to be in place / intact. All fittings accounted for.

 

Jeffyjeff: confirmed no tip-over sensor on this model

 

Jim: Looked into connector - intact and in place. That led me further down the path of searching out the wiring diagram and further investigation.

 

Tried swapping out horn / fuel pump relay. No difference / no joy

 

This info may be relevant to suggestion of Dirtrider:

With that 4 pin connector unplugged, I applied 12V+ to green wire (to fuel pump) and 12V- to Brown Wire. Got a click from under the fuel tank, but no happy pump noise.

Applied a test lamp to corresponding pins on other side of that connector
With side stand down, key on, nothing happened.

Side stand up, key on, test lamp comes on for appx 2 seconds, relay clicks off.

 

On the RID: side stand down key on - battery light, neutral light, oil light on
ABS system lights blink, display shows no info.

Side stand up key on - all lights as above, display shows 0:00 on clock, VDO 0,
No oil temp info, no fuel level indication.
As mentioned above, test lamp plugged into pins 1 and 2 of fuel system electrical connector lights for 2 seconds, then clicks off.

 

I'm still cleaning acorns, spiderwebs and other junk out of the spaces around / under wire harnesses and fuel tank...

 

Thanks everyone.

Afternoon Gregbikes

 

Still a bit confusing, 

 

The pump click (but no run)  points to a possible stuck pump impeller.

 

The RID readings & the clock re-setting to 0.00 indicate a low voltage issue.

 

So first thing is to hook pump connector back up, then put a voltmeter across the pump (+) & pump (-), then with stand UP turn key on & see if you have over 11.5 volts going  to the pump for 2 seconds. 

 

If not, then suspect a high resistance connection somewhere (like at battery posts)  or at ignition switch, or kill at switch. 

 

If over 11.5 volts to pump then suspect a stuck pump impeller (you can sometime free those by removing pump & using WD-40 & a skinny tool to reach in & give pump impeller a spin). 

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Gregbikes

Afternoon DR

Thanks for your insight - The clock reset is something I've gone through every time I've changed the battery. It has a fresh new one, but I haven't taken the time to reset the time.

 

I'm not 'feeling' a low voltage issue, but you could be right. Don't have my multimeter at this location, but will have to get one to follow your lead.

 

I'm getting the sense that I'm going to have to drain and remove the fuel tank to get to the pump. Never tried that one before...

 

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AndyS
On 7/17/2020 at 9:46 PM, Gregbikes said:

I'm getting the sense that I'm going to have to drain and remove the fuel tank to get to the pump. Never tried that one before...

 

 

At least that part is easy to do, and worthwhile too as you can see the state of the tubework and debris sock inside the tank.

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Gregbikes

 

Took me two days to get the tank drained and removed. Wondering what secrets lie behind that plate, and if I open it up, how I'll get it back together (so that it doesn't leak) again. Any poking around / trying things that's recommended before I need to get the 'replacement kit' from Beemer boneyard?

Has anyone had experience with these?

 

Sorry, I'm completely new to this modern era MC - I have a 75/5, and HAD an R100RS that you could mostly fix with a hammer.

IMG_2785A.jpg

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Jim Moore

Here's a few secrets. those tiny hex bolts holding the plate on? They get torqued to 6 nm. Not 6 ft-lb. 6 nm. Very light. 

 

Also, there's a big fat o-ring under the plate. It will swell. Put it in the sun after you remove it so it will shrink back to the correct size.

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Gregbikes

Thanks for that information - good to know. I'm going to go stare at it for a while, and maybe open it up... and put the O ring in a sunny spot.

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dirtrider
38 minutes ago, Gregbikes said:

 

Took me two days to get the tank drained and removed. Wondering what secrets lie behind that plate, and if I open it up, how I'll get it back together (so that it doesn't leak) again. Any poking around / trying things that's recommended before I need to get the 'replacement kit' from Beemer boneyard?

Has anyone had experience with these?

 

Sorry, I'm completely new to this modern era MC - I have a 75/5, and HAD an R100RS that you could mostly fix with a hammer.

 

Evening  Gregbikes

 

You won't know what lies behind that plate until you remove it, it might look like new in there or be a rusty mess (you won't know until you look in there).

 

In addition to what Jim mentioned above you should mark the plate clocking to the fuel tank (a simple paint mark across both will work). That flat on the outside of the plate does line up  with a tit on the plastic tank but unless you know what to look for it is safer to just mark the plate's clocking position BEFORE removal.

 

Also, there are 2 smaller hoses attached to the back of that plate (mark those for position so you get them back on the same fittings.

 

There is also fuel gauge plug that needs to be unplugged  before pulling the plate away very far. (careful of the float on the rear of that plate as those crumble easy on older bikes)

 

If you tie a string on the 2 hoses & on the float pig tail it is a lot easier to fish them out of the tank when you re-install the pump & pump plate. 

 

Do NOT use common worm drive hose clamps on any in-tank hoses as those won't hold the hoses on correctly. (the hose clamps are special for the high pressure in-tank fuel system hoses)

 

 

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Gregbikes

Thanks Jim, for the encouragement -

But oh crap. I'm half wishing I hadn't opened it up.

Now I know why there was no fuel level indication - 2 of 3 wires had corroded loose - no longer connected, and why there was no working fuel pump  - green wire spade had corroded loose from the fuel pump. Ugly.

Next steps - I'm going to clean up the pieces and see what needs replacing. I know the internal fuel lines have pretty much crumbled, and I'll need new clamps for those.

The parts list begins.

 

Thanks for the marking advice DR - that will be helpful if I ever get to the reassembly stage.

 

IMG_2787.A.jpg

IMG_2789A.jpg

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bacos

oh that had to be painful to see.

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Gregbikes

Yeah, That's when it went from "I'll get this running over the weekend" to "I may get it started by October."

It's kind of hard to believe that I went for a ride on it as recently as last November.

On the plus side, it turns out that a lot of that crap that looks like rust is the 19 year accumulation of dried sludge - it scrapes / wire brushes right off - mostly.

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AndyS

Replacement item from Beemer boneyard/ Motorworks / James Sherlock?

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AndyS

Hi Jim, not sure if that item is the same for the 1100RS.

 

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Gregbikes

Good afternoon

Deep thanks to all for the resources. Ultimately, I'm thinking that the Beemer Boneyard aftermarket kit will be the winner. Maybe.

My poking around has raised some questions, though: Using an icepick and a toothbrush, I've been able to clean things up to the point that it's not quite the 'horror from the gas tank' that it was,

and I'm starting to understand how things work / are connected. Not the most elegant engineering solution I've seen.

 

Noob question - I understand that the fuel pump is lubricated by the fuel, but would it be possible to give it a try by just powering it directly for a moment - to test if the broken/corroded spade connector was the cause of the failure. Aside from the part where I want to make everything nice and new, I'm curious to see if I can test the pump without ruining it.

 

Thoughts?

 

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dirtrider
4 minutes ago, Gregbikes said:

 

 

Noob question - I understand that the fuel pump is lubricated by the fuel, but would it be possible to give it a try by just powering it directly for a moment - to test if the broken/corroded spade connector was the cause of the failure. Aside from the part where I want to make everything nice and new, I'm curious to see if I can test the pump without ruining it.

 

Thoughts?

 

Afternoon   Gregbikes

 

You can do that but you really should pull the intake sock off then spray in some WD-40 before trying. If you try to run that old dry curded up pump without lube the you will definitely have to replace it.  

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Gregbikes

Thanks DR! WD40 is good advice for anything.

So, I tried it - got the click that I'd heard before. Not happy whirring.

If I thought about it for a minute, I'd have realized that I'd probably done the damage that broke off the corroded spade connector. So it goes.

 

So, next up, I will have to order a replacement - quite the range of choices (see attached - no comment on the BMW pricing) but I think It'll be the Beemer Boneyard kit...

Screen Shot 2020-07-21 at 3.20.29 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-07-21 at 3.23.56 PM.png

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Gregbikes said:

Thanks DR! WD40 is good advice for anything.

So, I tried it - got the click that I'd heard before. Not happy whirring.

If I thought about it for a minute, I'd have realized that I'd probably done the damage that broke off the corroded spade connector. So it goes.

 

So, next up, I will have to order a replacement - quite the range of choices (see attached - no comment on the BMW pricing) but I think It'll be the Beemer Boneyard kit...

 

 

Afternoon   Gregbikes

 

Your above picture makes that thing look pretty bad, most of the metal protective coating gone, lots of alcohol fuel corrosion, etc.

 

Are you sure that the fuel level float assembly is still working ??????????????? The windings on those usually go south with that  kind of corrosion.  Connector terminals will probably have their surfaces pitted & corroded (even cleaned up they usually cause problems once they get that bad). 

 

Personally I wouldn't put any money into parts on that pump assembly but would just buy a good looking (functioning) used pump & plate assembly off of E-Bay or Beemer Boneyard. 

 

Only problem is: the 1100RS fuel pump assembly is kind of as outlier as it is different than the 1100R or the 1100RT. You might have to search high & wide for a  P/N-- 16141341921 pump assembly for the 1100RS. They do pop up on E-Bay once in a while if you are not in a hurry to find one.

 

Maybe post a "wanted to buy" in the for sale section of this web site. 

 

You can end up putting a lot of money JUST into parts for that pump assembly & still have it not function correctly.

 

 

 

 

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AndyS

I think that item from German ebay is a good way to go. It is specific to your bike.

Wasting money and time on your unit seems futile.

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Gregbikes

Thanks again for all of the input. After the disappointment of opening it up and the miserable state of things, I had to take a step back.

For now, I've got nothing to lose by trying to clean it up and rewire the damn thing - If I can get the wiring functional and robust, I'll proceed with the pump and filter replacement.

turns out that Beemer Boneyard is not to far from where I am...

One thing at a time.

Judging by the conditions in the tank, I have a feeling that there may be other issues from the fall and time on it's side - but getting it started seems like a good baseline.

I know the crazy of pouring money into a project that's futile. I'm still holding onto a replacement Diode board for an '82 R100RS that died for other reasons...

 

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Gregbikes

For any still reading,  I've removed the layers of sediment, and replaced the wiring - all of it. Tested continuity all the way back to the connector, everything works so far.

Ordered the fuel pump replacement and filter from Beemer Boneyard, just finished installing that.

Next up, I'll have to clean out the tank and replace the vent hoses to the fuel cap.

IMG_2836A.jpg

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dirtrider
8 minutes ago, Gregbikes said:

For any still reading,  I've removed the layers of sediment, and replaced the wiring - all of it. Tested continuity all the way back to the connector, everything works so far.

Ordered the fuel pump replacement and filter from Beemer Boneyard, just finished installing that.

Next up, I'll have to clean out the tank and replace the vent hoses to the fuel cap.

 

Evening Gregbikes

 

That looks a LOT better,  did you use wire with gasoline/alcohol resistant insulation? It won't take normal E-10 gasoline long  to severely degrade non-submersible wire insulation.  

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Gregbikes

Hey Dirtrider, thanks for the comment - I honestly hadn't thought about E-10 resistant insulation. I just used appropriately-gauged wire left over from a fog-light installation kit. I'm no longer intimidated by the process of rewiring and sorting out the connections, (and I finally got to my multimeter) so if it's likely to be an issue, I'm not afraid of doing it over.

Aside from the German-strength high-temperature solder BMW used, the task was pretty simple and didn't take long once I decided to just do it.

For what it's worth, every wire that I removed was missing chunks of - or had significantly cracked insulation, which made me wonder how the damned thing was working as recently as last fall.

 

The process has also raised a few other questions that I've been digging into - from what I discovered in the tank, I'm going to have to disassemble it and completely clean it out - removing the filler cap, surround and the crumbled remains of the vent lines. I'm going to shake it empty then hose the tank out and let it air dry for a few days...

 

In the process, I've been looking into how to replace those vent / drain lines with something more durable and less likely to crumble - PTFE tubing seems to be it, and I've found a resource (fluorostore.com)  that sells it for considerably less than the various BMW specific vendors, but what diameter to order? 8mm, 10mm?  This has become an experiment in discovery.

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Gregbikes said:

Hey Dirtrider, thanks for the comment - I honestly hadn't thought about E-10 resistant insulation. I just used appropriately-gauged wire left over from a fog-light installation kit. I'm no longer intimidated by the process of rewiring and sorting out the connections, (and I finally got to my multimeter) so if it's likely to be an issue, I'm not afraid of doing it over.

Aside from the German-strength high-temperature solder BMW used, the task was pretty simple and didn't take long once I decided to just do it.

For what it's worth, every wire that I removed was missing chunks of - or had significantly cracked insulation, which made me wonder how the damned thing was working as recently as last fall.

 

The process has also raised a few other questions that I've been digging into - from what I discovered in the tank, I'm going to have to disassemble it and completely clean it out - removing the filler cap, surround and the crumbled remains of the vent lines. I'm going to shake it empty then hose the tank out and let it air dry for a few days...

 

In the process, I've been looking into how to replace those vent / drain lines with something more durable and less likely to crumble - PTFE tubing seems to be it, and I've found a resource (fluorostore.com)  that sells it for considerably less than the various BMW specific vendors, but what diameter to order? 8mm, 10mm?  This has become an experiment in discovery.

Morning Gregbikes

 

It depends on IF you are looking for  a short term fix (just to get it running & riding) or a long term permanent repair. If you want it to last then use wire with the correct insulation. OR, find some small dimeter fuel submersion resistant convoluted wire harness covering and independently cover the  wires that you added.

 

On the vent & drain hose-- That is a good question  on what to use.   It has been a long time since I have been into an old RS but I'm pretty sure the hose ID is 5mm (same as the RT). Just put a caliper or micrometer (or simply use some end wrenches) to measure the fitting diameters.

 

In any case,  you are apt to have long term issues in using PTFE tubing. It will probably fit the end fittings but that stuff has two possible long term issues when used inside a fuel tank. One is, it can get pretty darn hard when used submerged in E-10 for long periods (like real hard). That same characteristic causes the hose clamps to lose their full retention so the hoses eventually leak at the fittings (that can eventually allow raw fuel in the tank to drain onto your garage floor in your enclosed garage).     

 

You need to find (I believe) 5mm ID hose that is submergible rated & retains that rating long-term, hose that doesn't stiffen up when used long term submerged, as well a hose that is a correct OD that you can find proper fitting (full surround) hose clamps (DO NOT USE common worm type clamps or you "WILL" eventually have leaks).   

 

There might be some varieties of PTFE or other alternatives but just be "darn sure" they will work long term submerged with the OD  contacting hot E-10 fuel & will also allow proper clamp retention even when working submerged in  hot E-10.

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