BMW recommended oil does NOT say no molybdenum

[kioolt]

I believe that most peoples interpretation of the recommended oil for our wetheads is wrong.  Read this statement from the owners manual very carefully.

 

"SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2, Additives
(e.g. molybdenum-based) are not permissible
because they can attack coated components
of the engine, BMW Motorrad recommends
BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil."

 

This statement says additives are not permissible.  Additives are what you add in addition to the recommended oil.  It this case any oil that is SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2 rated is ok even if it contains molybdenum.  Also,  notice the "e.g" in the owners manual statement.  The "e.g" means example given.  The owners manual uses molybdenum as an example of an additive but doesn't limit additives to molybdenum.  So if you believe that any of the recommended oil (SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2)  contains any additives of any kind then you shouldn't use it.  That obviously isn't what they mean.

[Paul De]

We had the same question on the semantics of that statement in the link below,  and one could interpret the owners manual in that more limited way.  So, a member wrote to BMW and asked for clarification, which BMW took the more absolute position of no molybdenum at all.

 

Please read through this link as there is a lot of great information.

https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/93431-experience-experimenting-with-oil/

 

To spare you the search a long thread, I have included BMW's response to BrianM here.  I have set the font to bold in their statement that is quite absolute on no molybdenum.

Posted September 3, 2019

On 8/31/2019 at 8:30 AM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Morning  Brian

 

The riders manual says just what I posted above  --- "SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2, Additives (e.g. molybdenum-based) are not permissible because they can attack coated components of the engine, BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil"----   (this is quoted directly from the riders manual)

 

You are correct, it kind of comes down to actual wording, then the interpretation of that wording. Plus, with the BMW English version manual the word-meaning  can also be effected by how the original wording is translated from German to English.

 

If you go back through past riders manuals you will find a number of questionable  translations that change, blur, or skew the information provided.  

 

On the riders manual  "Additives (e.g. molybdenum-based) are not permissible because they can attack coated components of the engine" --  the 'additives' could be understood as secondary (rider) ADDED additives, or could be understood as any oil containing an additive package containing molybdenum. It really doesn't specify on how they get into the oil, just not to use any oil containing  molybdenum-based additives.

 

Just a guess on my part but BMW probably didn't put much thought into  what they published in the riders manuals as THEIR suggested oil doesn't contain the molybdenum so no real need to define the reason or define how it enters the oil.

 

I guess, to me personally, if molybdenum is bad for the engine & can attack components then it really doesn't matter on how it gets into the oil (rider added or originally blended in) as I don't want it in there.

 

 

Read more  

Received reply from BMW. It seems ANY molybdenum is bad. Make sure any oil does not have any molybdenum.

 

Their reply:

 

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

[kioolt]

Read that response by BMW again.  "THE USE OF ADDITIVES IS PROHIBITED."  That response from BMW indicates no additives if you take it literally. I don't think you can find an oil with no additives in it on the shelves.

 

 

[Rinkydink]

I read it to mean no STP or Marvel Mystery Oil additives etc. 

[Paul De]

Sure, no third party additives is clear and all motor manufacturers make this statement as they can hardly test all available additives and the long term effects, so it is best just to blanket statement no third party additives.  That said, how are you to interpret the statement "Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components."  This statement is all inclusive regardless of who, what, or where this material was introduced into their motor. 

[Paul De]

3 hours ago, kioolt said:

I don't think you can find an oil with no additives in it on the shelves.

There is no doubt about that, and was the reason we spent a lot of discussion on it. as all recent generations of synthetic oil will have some level of molybdenum.  Had BMW stopped at the use of additives, it would have been more clear, however in that next statement after that they muddied the waters again..  Like I have said before if I had a bike under warranty I would stick with the BMW branded oil, after that pick your favorite that meets the API and JASO specification.

[Selden]

Has anybody sent off a sample of the official BMW oil for testing to see if it contains any molybdenum?

[kioolt]

I have been and will continue to use any oil that meets the API and JASO specification without regard to the molybdenum content because I am going by my owners manual.  I disagree with the it says "no molybdenum",   it does say "no molybdenum additives" which to me is different.

[lkraus]

1 hour ago, Selden said:

Has anybody sent off a sample of the official BMW oil for testing to see if it contains any molybdenum?

Yes, Longjohn did it for us last fall.  142 ppm molybdenum.

 

 

[Dave_in_TX]

20 hours ago, Paul De said:

We had the same question on the semantics of that statement in the link below,  and one could interpret the owners manual in that more limited way.  So, a member wrote to BMW and asked for clarification, which BMW took the more absolute position of no molybdenum at all.

 

Please read through this link as there is a lot of great information.

https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/93431-experience-experimenting-with-oil/

 

To spare you the search a long thread, I have included BMW's response to BrianM here.  I have set the font to bold in their statement that is quite absolute on no molybdenum.

Posted September 3, 2019

Received reply from BMW. It seems ANY molybdenum is bad. Make sure any oil does not have any molybdenum.

 

Their reply:

 

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

Then do not use BWW's oil. A virgin oil analysis a poster received from Blackstone Labs show that the BMW advantec contains moly.

[Paul De]

Yes, of course the Blackstone test of BMW Advantec Ultimate showed molybdenum, that is expected because the oil has the API SN rating.  I as well as many others were well aware there is virtually no way avoid molybdenum as an additive in this current generation synthetic oils. Personally, I prefer using oils with the API SN rating as it isn't as hard on the catalyst, and causes less sludge, so whether I choose BMW branded oil, or another brand, I won't shy away from API SN oils because of the molybdenum content.

 

That said Don't you not find it a little strange that BMW would specify an oil rated as API SL for their Waterhead motor introduced in 2013 when the API SN specification had been in the market since 2010 and throw in the no molybdenum additive statement, but their recommended oil is actually rated as API SN which will always have molybdenum. Maybe it is just BMW being lazy on updating their owners manual as so few people would really nerd out on these details. YRMV

[92Merc]

Per an email from Liquid Moly, their 5-40w doesn't contain any moly.  I can't remember if someone did a Blackstone test on it. 

[realshelby]

20 hours ago, 92Merc said:

Per an email from Liquid Moly, their 5-40w doesn't contain any moly.  I can't remember if someone did a Blackstone test on it. 

I have had more than one sample of Liqui-Moly tested. 1 Part per million. So the BMW oil has 142 times the amount of molybdenum in it!!!!!

[92Merc]

2 hours ago, realshelby said:

I have had more than one sample of Liqui-Moly tested. 1 Part per million. So the BMW oil has 142 times the amount of molybdenum in it!!!!!

It's kinda ironic the company with the name MOLY it, doesn't have any moly in it.

[Altaflyer]

I have several oil samples of different oils and the corresponding MO levels.

Miles on oil          Mfgr               MO level

5789	Advantec	156
6081	Advantec	150
6543	Liqui-Moly	31
2572	Advantec	134
3514	Advantec
5627	Castrol Pwr1	49

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, Altaflyer said:

I have several oil samples of different oils and the corresponding MO levels.

Miles on oil          Mfgr               MO level

5789	Advantec	156
6081	Advantec	150
6543	Liqui-Moly	31
2572	Advantec	134
3514	Advantec
5627	Castrol Pwr1	49

Gotta love the Castrol ! 

[9Mary7]

The way BMW have written the spec identifies "Additive" as a separate entity from the motor oil they specify, meaning they do not want the owner putting in any additive package IN ADDITION to what is in the specified oil. The punctuation clearly identifies Additive as a separate entity, both in my manual and in BMW's response to the member. Sooooooooo..........no Slick 50 or what ever else the internet is selling right now to get you 100 mpg or, better yet, 15,000 miles from a set of the stickiest tires available!!!

Sorry all, my mom was an English teacher and the damage is irreversible.

[Andre1150]

Morning all, I reached out to the engineers at Liquid Moly about the molybdenum in liquimoly products and oils.

 

Here's the response I got back:

 

Dear Andre, thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

BMW Motorbike prohibits in its service instructions the use of Molybenum Disulfide (MoS2) based additives in the engine oil. The reason is - according to BMW-  that under certain circumstances coatings in the engine can be peeled off.
Neither LIQUI MOLY or other contacts in the lubricant business have observed the peel effeffect  of any coating in an BMW Motorbike engines, yet. On the BMW Motorbike Days 2019 in Garmisch Patenkirchen non of the engineers of BMW Motorbike could answer the question of a participant which coating exactly may peel off...

We have inhouse experience with R1200 and R1250 engines, with a regular use of Motorbike MoS2 Shooter for more than 80.000 kms / 50.000 miles now without any issue. Indeed, we observe a smooth running of the engine and also see no negative effekt on the wet clutch.

All LIQUI MOLY products are designed and produced using state-of-the-art additive packages utilizing extremely effective ingredients. The product development is done in-house after which each product goes through extensive testing for us to be able to guarantee maximum effectiveness and to substantiate compatibility with all materials present in engines, transmissions, etc.

Please observe the product information which you can see by using this link: P004197-Motorbike MoS2 Shooter-29-en (liqui-moly.de)


We hope we could help you with our information. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.

Freundliche Grüße / Best regards
 
i. A. Steffen Niemietz
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
 
F & E / Anwendungstechnik

[Scott9999]

I figure that BMW's overall reply about what you put in your BMW is kinda like Clint Eastwood's, "You've got to ask yourself one question, do I feel lucky, well, do ya, punk?"