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FreyZI

No start, no click diagnosis help please

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FreyZI

Hello.  New to forum, on account of there being so many forums...  That and, other than with my K100 project bike, I've never had a problem with any of the other Beemers in the stable (R12, R11, F8GS).  Today, I write about my problem with the 2001 R1100RL.  This is a sidecar tug and apparently she knew that I was just about to list her for sale (the novelty of the sidecar has eroded as the kids have turned into a teen and a 'tween and have started riding their own [dirt]bikes, and as I much prefer riding on two wheels).  Anyway, the other day I took the kids, in the hack, to a local pond for a dip.  As the hack had been sitting in the garage for a while, not on a tender, I wanted to see if it would even started -- which it did, easily.  I turned it off, moved other bikes out of the way and rolled it out to the driveway for our departure in a few minutes.  Started up fine, warmed up, waited and waited for the teen.  Turned it off to go find the teen.  Found the teen, started bike, and drove off to pond, 10 minutes or so away.  No problems whatsoever in starting the bike three separate times in the course of 15 minutes or so.  Went swimming, etc., and ready to head home, but no start, no click.  Happened to be parked on a steep hill, so bump started the bike easily and rode home.  No start at home.  Diagnosis begins.  I should say that the hack is garaged, connections are generally clean and not corroded.  In neutral, with neutral indicator light on and clutch hand lever pulled in fully and clamped during all operations.  Sidestand had been removed when the bike was converted to a hack.

 

I bench tested the relay and it seemed to be operational: positive click when connected to battery via pins 85 and 86 and [some] voltage between pins 30 and 87 when control circuit was energized.  I replaced the relay and opened the right handlebar control housing to access the start button.  Looked clean and fully operable, but I jumpered it anyway, with no effect.  Next, removed the starter relay and jumpered the socket between 30 and 87, resulting in the starter motor cranking.  With key in on position and depressing start button, I then tested for voltage at pins 85 and 86 and had no voltage at either.  This, I gather, probably indicates a problem "going to" the relay.

 

I think, since I was able to bump start and ride the hack, that there is no problem with the engine kill switch or the removed/bypassed sidestand switch.  Also presume I've ruled out the engine start button as the culprit.  Since there was no voltage at either pin 85 or 86, that, I presume, rules out an open ground.  As I read the starter circuit diagram, you should be able to close the relay's control circuit either with clutch or in neutral, so I don't imagine a problem with either of those switches (but maybe I'm wrong about that?).  Not sure how to proceed.  Should I just get a new relay already?

 

The hack never failed me until now; just sudden [not intermittent] failure.  Happy to know your thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

Frey

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, FreyZI said:

  Sidestand had been removed when the bike was converted to a hack.

 

I bench tested the relay and it seemed to be operational: positive click when connected to battery via pins 85 and 86 and [some] voltage between pins 30 and 87 when control circuit was energized.  I replaced the relay and opened the right handlebar control housing to access the start button.  Looked clean and fully operable, but I jumpered it anyway, with no effect.  Next, removed the starter relay and jumpered the socket between 30 and 87, resulting in the starter motor cranking.  With key in on position and depressing start button, I then tested for voltage at pins 85 and 86 and had no voltage at either.  This, I gather, probably indicates a problem "going to" the relay.

 

I think, since I was able to bump start and ride the hack, that there is no problem with the engine kill switch or the removed/bypassed sidestand switch.  Also presume I've ruled out the engine start button as the culprit.  Since there was no voltage at either pin 85 or 86, that, I presume, rules out an open ground.  As I read the starter circuit diagram, you should be able to close the relay's control circuit either with clutch or in neutral, so I don't imagine a problem with either of those switches (but maybe I'm wrong about that?).  Not sure how to proceed.  Should I just get a new relay already?

 

The hack never failed me until now; just sudden [not intermittent] failure.  Happy to know your thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

Frey

Afternoon Frey

 

positive click when connected to battery via pins 85 and 86 and [some] voltage between pins 30 and 87 when control circuit was energized --You need to see FULL battery voltage (or close anyhow) when the 85 is powered to 12v & 86 grounds through clutch switch. ONLY 85 should get the 12v as 86 is  the low or ground side.  

 

Next, removed the starter relay and jumpered the socket between 30 and 87, resulting in the starter motor cranking-- This tells you that the starter is good & capable of working. 

 

I then tested for voltage at pins 85 and 86 and had no voltage at either-- You shouldn't see voltage at 86 as that is the low or ground side. If you see much  voltage at 86 then the clutch switch is either open, or the clutch switch  isn't seeing ground. 

 

You DO need to see voltage at 85 with the kill switch turned on & the starter button pushed. If kill switch is off (or broken), or the starter button isn't pushed then you should not have voltage at 85. Engine won't run if kill switch is bad or open so that is probably OK per your above. 

 

So do you have voltage at 85 with key on, with kill switch ON,  & starter button pushed--- Yes or No??????

 

86 should see ground when clutch lever is pulled in & 86a should show ground  with trans in neutral. (either one grounded should allow the relay to work. 

 

So, if you have 12v at 85 when you push the starter button. And   either 86 or 86a (or both) are grounded, and you have (GOOD)  12v at 30,  then you should have 12v out of 87 going to starter  to activate the starter solenoid. If you don't then probably a bad starter relay. 

 

You might measure the (30) 12v & the (87) 12v out  with relay & starter in the circuit (under load) as  getting voltage at no load can really fool you into thinking all is OK when it it's not OK.

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FreyZI
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

So do you have voltage at 85 with key on, with kill switch ON,  & starter button pushed--- Yes or No??????

Thanks, Dirtrider.  I saw ZERO volts at 85 with key on, kill switch on, and starter button pushed.

 

When I say I did a bench test, that was out of the bike on the work bench with a spare battery.  I did struggle to get a good volt reading.  I'll check under load, per your recommendation.

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dirtrider
42 minutes ago, FreyZI said:

Thanks, Dirtrider.  I saw ZERO volts at 85 with key on, kill switch on, and starter button pushed.

 

When I say I did a bench test, that was out of the bike on the work bench with a spare battery.  I did struggle to get a good volt reading.  I'll check under load, per your recommendation.

Evening  Frey

 

I saw ZERO volts at 85 with key on, kill switch on, and starter button pushed.-- This is probably your problem, the question is why?

 

With key-on see if you have 12v at the green/yellow wire going into the start button switch (12v comes out of kill switch, then goes down through the side stand switch, then back up to the start button switch).

 

If the engine runs then your kill switch (or switch by-pass) should be good so that more than likely puts the problem between the side-stand-switch 12v out wire splice  & the start button. 

 

If you do have 12v at the start button then  verify that you have 12v power coming out of the start switch when you push the button. That 12v should be coming out on the black/yellow wire. 

 

If you do have 12v coming out on the black/yellow wire then make sure it gets all the way to the starter relay socket 85 terminal.

 

Re-check all your earlier  findings as something missed there can send you looking in the wrong direction, or at the wrong thing. 

 

Also look at the side stand switch by-pass to be sure that it didn't break the  green/yellow wire going up to the start switch (this asumes that wire was tied in at that by-pass splice) 

 

 

 

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Jim Moore

Can you start the bike with the key on jumping hole 2 to hole 6 under the starter relay?

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FreyZI

Thanks for the help, Dirtrider and Jim.  Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm attaching a pic of the start button and kill switch.  Why was it necessary to have them concentric and turn two separate, simple functions into a "cluster"?  Anyway, the wiring diagram I printed out, courtesy of C. Mungall and an R1100RT (and some others online), have a different wire color (to wit, green/red between the kill switch and the the sidestand switch).  On mine, the start button wires are black/yellow and black/green; the kill switch wires are green and green/yellow.

 

At the "cluster" swtich, on the green/yellow wire I have 12v -- so kill switch appears, not surprisingly, to be operable.  I have ZERO volts at black/yellow wire on the start switch.  BTW, the fuel pump is primed every time I turn the key to on.  This would seem to confirm DR's suspicion that the problem is between the splice and the start button.  Possible that the splice was amended when the rig was turned into a sidecar hack, so maybe it became a weak point.  To save me some hassle, where is the splice located?

 

Jim, I can start the bike by jumping the holes for pins 30 and 87, but I didn't look at the numbers on the relay socket.  I presume they correspond to 2 and 6...

 

Cheers,

 

Frey

IMG_20200629_220748.jpg

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dirtrider
9 hours ago, FreyZI said:

Thanks for the help, Dirtrider and Jim.  Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm attaching a pic of the start button and kill switch.  Why was it necessary to have them concentric and turn two separate, simple functions into a "cluster"?  Anyway, the wiring diagram I printed out, courtesy of C. Mungall and an R1100RT (and some others online), have a different wire color (to wit, green/red between the kill switch and the the sidestand switch).  On mine, the start button wires are black/yellow and black/green; the kill switch wires are green and green/yellow.

 

At the "cluster" swtich, on the green/yellow wire I have 12v -- so kill switch appears, not surprisingly, to be operable.  I have ZERO volts at black/yellow wire on the start switch.  BTW, the fuel pump is primed every time I turn the key to on.  This would seem to confirm DR's suspicion that the problem is between the splice and the start button.  Possible that the splice was amended when the rig was turned into a sidecar hack, so maybe it became a weak point.  To save me some hassle, where is the splice located?

 

Jim, I can start the bike by jumping the holes for pins 30 and 87, but I didn't look at the numbers on the relay socket.  I presume they correspond to 2 and 6...

 

Morning  Frey

 

On mine, the start button wires are black/yellow and black/green; the kill switch wires are green and green/yellow.-- The wire FROM the kill switch TO the side stand switch is (should be) green/red , it THEN comes back (returns) from the side stand switch as a green/yellow going into the start switch.   (note: I do have one BMW wire schematic that shows some models used a green/yellow 12v wire "out" of kill switch  on a few models) 

 

At the "cluster" switch, on the green/yellow wire I have 12v -- so kill switch appears, not surprisingly, to be operable.-- The 12v going into the kill switch from the ignition switch should be green. The 12v coming out of the kill switch should be green/red. (note: I do have one BMW wire schematic that shows some used a green/yellow wire here on a few models) 

 

 I have ZERO volts at black/yellow wire on the start switch. -- Was this tested with the start button PUSHED?????????

 

BTW, the fuel pump is primed every time I turn the key to on.  This would seem to confirm DR's suspicion that the problem is between the splice and the start button.--If the engine ran, then the fuel pump was priming so that was verified in an earlier response. This means the side stand switch was properly by-passed to feed the ENGINE electronic/fuel control  side of the system. BUT!,,, there is a 2nd side stand  switch 12v out splice that tees off & sends 12v back up to the start switch (green/yellow wire), this seems to be where you problem is. Possibly at the splice or possibly a broken green/yellow wire in the harness where (or near where)  it is zip tied to the steering neck area. 

 

  Possible that the splice was amended when the rig was turned into a sidecar hack, so maybe it became a weak point.  To save me some hassle, where is the splice located?--This, I can't remember & my BMW wire diagram doesn't show splice locations. Some were right at the side stand  switch harness connector but I just don't remember on the 1100RL motorcycle. (it probably doesn't really  matter,  see my note below) 

 

 

Jim, I can start the bike by jumping the holes for pins 30 and 87, but I didn't look at the numbers on the relay socket.  I presume they correspond to 2 and 6-- This was already verified in your earlier response when you said you jumped 30 to 87 &  engine cranked.    

 

Note-- as long as your side stand switch is gone & the harness jumpered you really don't need to diddle around & find that splice. You can simply make a short jumper wire at the R/H switch cluster to jump the GREEN/RED kill switch 12v out directly to the GREEN/YELLOW of the starter button 12v IN. (this by-passes the splice & wire completely as there is now no need to send that circuit down through the side stand switch then back up)

 

Do not cut the Green/Red wire as it STILL needs to remain intact to send 12v down to the side stand switch jumper so it can continue to power the electronics & fueling system. 

 

Note 2: when I say green/red above, if your kill switch 12v OUT wire is green/yellow then substitute green/yellow  for the green/red in my text above. 

 

 

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FreyZI

The hack is a 2001 R1100RL.  BMW were already making the R1150 models.  As I understand it, they had some R1100 engines left over, so they made up a few more R1100R bikes, splashed some chrome on them, and called them R1100RL.  What does the L stand for: luxury, legacy, leftover?  It's possible that the wiring more closely resembles early R1150 wiring?  That might explain the different wire colors, as I definitely do NOT have green/red (and my green/yellow is from kill switch; the wire to the start button switch is green/black).  So, I guess I will try jumpering from the green/yellow from the engine kill switch to the black/green of the start button switch (see photo from previous post).

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FreyZI

For what it's worth, here's a pic of the backside of the switch showing the soldered connections of wires to the kill switch.  I'd guess those are original.  Any objections to quick splice or do I need to clean up grease and get the soldering iron hot?

IMG_20200630_081716.jpg

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, FreyZI said:

For what it's worth, here's a pic of the backside of the switch showing the soldered connections of wires to the kill switch.  I'd guess those are original.  Any objections to quick splice or do I need to clean up grease and get the soldering iron hot?

 

Afternoon    Frey

 

If you want it to last & be trouble free then dig your soldering iron out. 

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FreyZI

"If you want it to last & be trouble free then did your soldering iron out."

 

DR, you overestimate my soldering skill.

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FreyZI

SOLVED!

 

Thanks DR.  As I was about to solder in the jumper in the switch, I thought I'd just give a quick look at the loom -- don't really like the idea of loose ends.  I opened it near the steering head, gave a little tug on the black/green wire, and, sure enough, the broken wire end popped right out.  Turns out that's where PO spliced wires when obviating the sidestand switch.  The failed connection had been soldered, but maybe not so well... (see pics).  The kill switch wire soldered connection was still solid, but you can see that the technique is not robust.  Proof that you should mechanically join wires before soldering them.

 

Took a little test ride and everything is working as it should.  Glad this happened before I put her up for sale.


Cheers,

 

Frey 

 

IMG_20200630_191258.jpg

IMG_20200630_192201.jpg

IMG_20200630_190754.jpg

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