Thoughts on Mesh Intercoms

[Cap]

I have been using Sena Bluetooth intercoms for many years.  They work great for listening to music or other media via my helmet speakers.  I also ride in groups of 2-4 riders, and I have found that Bluetooth intercoms are OK.  They work well enough that I would not consider riding without them, but not so well that I haven’t been hoping for something better.  Mesh intercoms are maturing, and I recently upgraded.  I did some cursory research and price scanning, and chose Cardo Packtalk Bold. 

 

I confess that I didn’t fully appreciate the differences that mesh intercoms impose on my communications habits.  Using the old Sena intercoms, after fussing with the point-to-point rider pairing process, the use-mode is fairly simple.  When riding, if I want to talk with someone, I press my intercom button once, twice, or three times depending on the rider with whom I want to connect.  And that connection is preemptively established with the other rider.  That is, they have no choice.  They might get a tone to announce the connection, but I can interrupt whatever they are doing.  “Yo!”

 

Having established a connection, either rider can “hang up.”  This use mode allows us to listen to our own media sources, and periodically be interrupted by a riding partner if they think the situation warrants. “Hey, at the next intersection, let’s stop and find a gas station.”  Alternatively, a pair of riders can choose to leave the channel open continuously, and yack away at each other.  I’ve done that, too.  With Sena bluetooth, it is theoretically possible for 3 or 4 riders to talk in a group, but it never seems to work well. That is the old Bluetooth mode, and it makes sense to me for rider-to-rider communications, although I would prefer longer range and better voice clarity. 

 

Now, along comes mesh, and it has a different use mode which I didn’t think about before purchasing.  In mesh mode, your intercom is live and connected by default.  So, “radio discipline” is going to be an issue: if everyone is talking all the time, then it will be hard to hear.  And annoying if you don’t want to listen to 2 of your friends talking about the score in the Bronco game.  Moreover, at high speeds, the ambient noise will probably trigger the VOX setting, and you will be listening to somebody’s wind noise piped directly to your speakers.

 

So, in mesh mode, the designers allow you to turn it off.  In Cardo, you can mute the mesh by pressing the wheel.  In the Sena 50S, you can start/stop the mesh using the helmet controls, and mute your microphone while staying connected to the mesh.  Here’s the big change: if a rider has selected to mute or stop the mesh, the other riders cannot preemptively force that rider to reconnect.  So, you cannot push a message to someone who has decided to tune out of the group discussion.  I can’t say, “Hey, at the next intersection, let’s stop for gas,” to someone who is not listening.  Hmm, I guess we’ll need to start using hand signals again:  When you see me raise my middle finger, turn on your mesh!  High tech, indeed.

 

Here’s another difference.  Cardo and Sena both allow you to construct different groups.  The intention is that if you periodically ride with different actual groups of people, the intercoms will remember the pairings, and allow you to connect in mesh mode without fuss.  You just need to save those groups once, and then select the appropriate group before you start riding.  And you can also use this function to create private communications with a sub-group. 

 

With Cardo, you can designate a single other rider for a private channel in each of your groups.  With both Sena and Cardo, you can create a bunch of separate subgroups and switch between them.  So, if you wanted to provision a private channel to your riding buddies using the mesh system, you could notionally create a separate “group” for just yourself and each one of the other riders in your actual riding group.  Here’s the problem: on the Cardo, you need to switch the active mesh group using your phone app.  On the Sena, you can switch the active mesh group using the buttons, but the sequence is long and complex.  So, neither the Cardo nor the Sena can gracefully switch the active mesh group while you are moving. 

 

In my opinion, the Cardo is marginally more useful at creating a private channel while moving, but only with a single pre-selected other rider.   Pick one buddy before you start moving.  But neither system can initiate that private channel if the recipient has muted their mesh.  Insert hand signal here.

 

I would be interested to hear thoughts from any of you who have been using mesh intercoms with groups, and how you use them. 

 

Cap

[Groanup]

[RTinNC]

At Americade last year we stopped at the Sena booth and asked about the benefits of the new model 30 (I think that the model) with "mesh" technology.  We explained how we ride and that we never ride with more than 4 to 6 riders but usually only 2 to 4.   The Sena guys pretty much said we would probably not benefit from the Mesh technology.  It also allows simple connection to all others so that should a bike not on our group pull up next to me at a stop light and we both had Mesh we could easily connect to each other and chat.   But we BOTH would need Mesh headsets.  At least that is how I understood it .   So based on that my buddy and I decided it was probably not something we needed. 

[Cap]

One of my riding buddies thought about the issue of using mesh, and not having the ability to push an interruption to another rider.  His idea is to use your cellphone and Cardo's good voice command capability to initiate a phone call to the rider who has muted his mesh intercom.  "Hey Cardo, call Bill."  The phone pairing uses bluetooth and is configured to allow priority interrupts.  So, that might work, especially if the riders in a group are spread out far enough that hand signals are ineffective.

 

One of my other riding partners recently purchased a Sena 50s, and found that voice commands didn't work very well under the best of conditions, and that his microphone stopped working altogether shortly after purchase.  For those of you who took advantage of the Sena trade-in offer, apparently there has been some quality-control issues with the microphones, and that might explain the poor voice command performance.  

[Bill_Walker]

Boy, does that make the old Autocom/FRS radio setup seem simple by comparison!

[JustKrusen]

8 of us use Cardo Packtalks since 2016.  We get together and just ride.  No muss, no fuss.  Usually only a max of 6 of us ride together at a time.  It doesn't matter who shows up they always connect automatically.  Never a problem talking over each other.  I save private chat for my co-rider.  

[Cap]

On 7/1/2020 at 6:58 PM, Bill_Walker said:

Boy, does that make the old Autocom/FRS radio setup seem simple by comparison!

 

  Our first venture into comms was with Starcom and FRS.  Wired systems with limited battery life.  And basically worthless.  I think I still have a set in a box somewhere.

[Cap]

On 7/1/2020 at 7:23 PM, JustKrusen said:

8 of us use Cardo Packtalks since 2016.  We get together and just ride.  No muss, no fuss.

 

I just took my first longer ride using Cardo mesh in a group.  There was some muss and fuss involved.  First, bridging a Sena user into the mesh failed in the first 5 minutes when the Sena rider was momentarily out of range.  OK, nice idea, but we won't try that again.  Second, when my Cardo unit was temporarily out of range of the group, I got a warning tone.  But there was no similar alert when I came back in range.  So, I needed to continuously ask, "Can you hear me now?"  

 

And finally, at some point my Cardo got confused and would not reconnect after falling out of range.  I attempted a power-cycle while moving that would not work for some reason.  The good news is that I was always able to listen to my media.  I just got cut off from the group intercom (even though riding right alongside a group member) until we decided to stop for gas.  When we stopped, a forced reboot fixed everything.

 

The really good news is that the audio quality is much better than the Sena models I have been using for many years.  And I now agree that radio discipline shouldn't be a problem.  The intercom is so good that it doesn't clip the first sound.  So conversation is natural, without all the "what did you say?" stuff to which I was accustomed on the old Senas. No wind noise from the other riders.  And my media would suspend and resume reliably around the voice comms.  Nice.

[Bill_Walker]

2 hours ago, Cap said:

 

  Our first venture into comms was with Starcom and FRS.  Wired systems with limited battery life.  And basically worthless.  I think I still have a set in a box somewhere.

 

My Autocom was bike-powered.  I never had a problem with my Kenwood TK-3131 FRS running out of battery in a day.

[JustKrusen]

 

5 hours ago, Cap said:

 Second, when my Cardo unit was temporarily out of range of the group, I got a warning tone.  But there was no similar alert when I came back in range.  So, I needed to continuously ask, "Can you hear me now?"  

 

 

We don't get a tone when out of range. We ride in mountains and go out of reach very often as we spread out.  If we can see the other riders we can talk to them. Our Cardo's always reconnect automatically. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[BamaJohn]

My first communication experience on bikes was via CB radio with J&M audio system.  On my Gold Wings it was a PTT with the trigger on the left handlebar.  All in a group knew to dial into channel 38 (for example) and it worked just fine for intercom use.  

The next generation I tried was early Cardo, and it was kind of ok.

Then came Sena and the 20s Evo, which uses Bluetooth, which was sometimes scratchy and short-ranged for intercom, but fine for music and GPS announcements.  Two riders on i'com was ok...3 or 4 was hit and miss.  I was skeptical of the 30 series and passed on that model.  

And now I have Sena 50S mesh....i'com on mesh is easy to use, and as clear as if sitting in my living room; MUCH longer range, even when out of sight and over a hill; music is clearer than I've heard before; and it recharges quickly.  Using mesh consumes more battery, so on all-day rides, I recharge at lunch via a small (fits in shirt pocket) battery pack.  Last Saturday my Sena 50S went 5 hrs before getting "battery low" warning, and a recharge of 30 minutes finished out the day.  I have a modular helmet so use the boom mic and have no problems with it.

[Cap]

3 hours ago, BamaJohn said:

My first communication experience on bikes was via CB radio with J&M audio system.  On my Gold Wings it was a PTT with the trigger on the left handlebar.  

 

Sounds like we went through similar evolutions.  The old PTT on the handlebar!

 

In my group, we all took a pass on the Sena 30.  We already had several variants of the Model 20.  And I had a bespoke version of Sena in my Schuberth C3Pro that was some intermediate capability, but was very nicely integrated into the helmet.  We probably delayed too long with an upgrade because I was reluctant to move on from my Schuberth.  There was no point for my buddies to buy new intercoms if I was a luddite.  But as you say, the older Senas were not great with communications beyond 1-to-1.

 

When I started researching the latest intercoms, I found that Sena had cleverly locked up the market for fully integrated intercoms with several high-end helmet manufacturers: Shoei, Schuberth, HJC, and AGV.  I would be thrilled with a Sena 50S integrated into any of those helmets, but that is not what Sena did.  Rather they developed versions of their older non-mesh systems for those helmets.  Having locked myself into an older technology with my still-serviceable Schuberth C3Pro, I didn't want to make that mistake again.  And once you decide that helmet-integration is not the deciding factor, then Cardo becomes an option.

 

I found a great deal on an AGV Sportmodular helmet.  Wow, the helmet is SOOO light!  And quiet, and with great peripheral vision.  Quieter than my Schuberth, and with much better ventilation.  I suppose that is not surprising given about 8 years of advancements in helmet design since the C3Pro was released. I used the glue-pad option to attach the Cardo to the AGV.  Needed some minor tweaking, but it was a trivial install.  

 

Anybody need a like-new Schuberth C3Pro, with integrated Sena intercom, complete with handlebar remote control?  I feel guilty everytime I leave it on the shelf when I reach for my new AGV.  I jilted my old friend! 

[Cap]

I've been out riding in a group for the last several days using the Cardo mesh system.  And I have mostly positive results so far.  They are very easy to use.  The concerns I had about VOX are unwarranted.  They work great, you can listen to your media and when somebody speaks, you hear them perfectly, and your music (or whatever) is still audible in the background.  

 

So far only two concerns.  The range is strictly line-of-sight.  If you are pretty close, but somebody goes over a hill, then the intercom breaks.  And usually it repairs immediately when you resume line-of-sight.  But the other concern is that if one member of the group drops out for an extended period, like 2-3 minutes, then the connection to the group will not reestablish itself.  And the disconnected rider needs to power-cycle their device to repair the connection.  

 

But other than the issues mentioned above, these Packtalk Bold units are vastly superior is sound volume, clarity, and intercom functionality than my old Sena bluetooth sets.

 

Cap

[Cap]

I just spent the last week riding around Wyoming with two friends.  We found the Cardo mesh intercom to be excellent.  There were a few minor issues that we found puzzling.  First, if we had music playing, there would sometimes be a large difference in the sound volume for the intercom vs. the media.  By using the Cardo phone app to configure the audio settings, we turned off some of the auto-volume features, and were able to achieve volume parity across sources.  Second,  the music volume would sometimes cycle slowly high and low.  We think that this might have been because somebody in the group had set the VOX sensitivity too high, and was inadvertently triggering mesh transmission that reduces media volume.  So, we all set our VOX sensitivity to minimum, and the volume cycling was reduced (but not completely eliminated).  

 

Third, we periodically had a situation in which a rider would get too far from the others, and disconnect from the group.  When closing up the distance, that rider would usually automatically rejoin the mesh group, but not always.  This is clearly a problem.   Rebooting the intercom would solve the problem.  Cardo, are you listening?

 

Fourth, there are some quirky behaviors that require operator retraining.  When your phone is paired, you might deliberately or inadvertently use your trigger word.  For example, "hey Siri, call Bill."  And when you do that, your phone will take control and perform the desired function.  But Cardo will not resume control of the voice channel until your phone relinquishes control.  So, while you are talking to your phone, your voice is not transmitted to the mesh intercom -- which is good.  But when you want to end your call, or whatever you are doing with Siri, you need to signal Cardo to resume control.  You do this manually by pressing the "phone" button on the intercom.

 

And Fifth, this issue of control can cause some really annoying problems.  The Cardo can get into a state where it is waiting for a manual control input.  And the intercom will stop working until it gets the desired input.  And if you don't know why this happened, or what you need to do to get out of it, then you are stuck.  Trying to reboot won't work, because Cardo is waiting for the single control input that it expects, and powering-off is not it.  And then, Cardo cues the control inputs and executes them in sequence when you finally stumble on the one thing for which it was waiting -- at which point it will turn itself off if you had tried to reboot it to solve the problem.  Cardo, you need to create a "home" button that preempts a cued command, and forces a return to normal DMC operation from any state.

 

Finally, as an aside for the BMW crowd, pairing the Cardo with my BMW RT was easy but not obvious.  That is, there is no specific procedure explained in the manual.  Cardo anticipates that you might have a phone, and some other devices like a GPS or another phone...  So, this is how I did it: With the bike power off, I paired my phone to the Cardo as Phone 1.  With that pairing successful, I turned off the bluetooth on the phone.  Then, turn the bike on, and find the bluetooth pairing menu on the bike.  Delete all pairings on the bike.  Then, initiate "phone 2" pairing on the Cardo.  Then, initiate "headset 1" pairing on the bike.  Finally, accept headset 1 pairing on the bike.  At that point, you can reactivate bluetooth on your phone and both phone and bike will be paired to the Cardo, and automatically connect whenever they are on.

 

These Cardos are a huge improvement over the older Sena units, even with the quirks I mention above.  I love the ability to speak naturally to my riding buddies, and listen seamlessly to my media when not conversing.  The sound quality is good even at speed.  There is a safety benefit while using them -- you can shout a warning with no delay.  At one point, one of my group was trying to get around a slow logging truck and pulled out to take a look -- the other two of us were farther back, and could see a car coming.  We were able to shout a warning immediately without having to first initiate a comm channel.  Another time, there was a deer about to run across the road, and the first rider provided a warning.  Immediate voice communication is useful.

 

Cap

[Lowndes]

I just stopped by the local Cycle Gear to pick up my rear wheel with a new tire mounted and balanced.  The manager there is a Sena and Cardo wiz, has sold, used and owned a bunch of them and heard all the customers about them.  He showed me the new Packtalk Black they just got in, had a stack of them on the counter;  3 year warranty,  45mm JBL's, 13 hrs talk time, etc.  His appraisal was that Cardo still seems to have the best system.