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Defund the Police? Here You Go

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BrianM
1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

 

How about internships at companies looking for above minimum wage workers?

First year pay is MW until you learn the position. Pass muster and become a full time employee with competitive pay and benefits. Most big money companies could afford this if in a growing economy.   

 

It is not as simple as you think it is.

 

Having sat in many meetings with local industry, training an employee is much more complicated than just learning the position. Much of job training (even 2 and 4 year degrees) is to give workers the skills for entry level and then learn the rest on the job using the skills learned in school.

 

If it was easy, more companies would be doing it. Having an internal training program can be quite expensive. Much ceaper to subsidize employee training. I have taught classes for groups of company employees. Of course if the government is willing to help (often due to companies asking them to), companies are more than happy to take advantage.

 

 

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Red
9 hours ago, BrianM said:

I paid for my own college, my father was dead, my mother could not afford to help with tuition. She could however, let me live at home at no cost as long as I remained in school. Due to that alone, I could have a job and pay my tuition/books. My education has payed for itself amny times over. Without my education, who knows where I would be or what I would be doing.

 

Almost exactly my situation.  In my situation I worked as a painter to earn $ for school.  I expect if I hadn't had the free room and board along with in state tuition, I'd have joined the painters union and worn speckled clothes the rest of my life.  I much preferred how it turned out and I think I contributed much more to society, family, and friends as well.

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Rougarou
9 hours ago, BrianM said:

 

I paid for my own college, my father was dead, my mother could not afford to help with tuition. She could however, let me live at home at no cost as long as I remained in school. Due to that alone, I could have a job and pay my tuition/books. My education has payed for itself amny times over. Without my education, who knows where I would be or what I would be doing.

 

I have to thank you for my education, the GI Bill covered that,.....but, it's useless and has served me no purpose other than to say I "gots" my degree.  I have been contemplating getting a masters, but in reality, it would be useless too.  My current job is more than sufficient and continued education would be of no benefit,......I got the job with no degree although it was stated as required (bachelors with 10 years, masters with five).

 

 

9 hours ago, BrianM said:

 

Circumstances have much more to do with a person's future than intelligence or perseverance. Working hard is not a guarantee of anything. I see it everyday at work. I also see the result of giving people a chance to better themselves. Yes, some of this is subsidized through jobs programs. Virtually all education in this country is subsidized with tax dollars.

 

I don't really agree with that.  You can overcome your circumstances, I've seen it many times while active duty and as a recruiter.  People that have "no future" and no way to gain a future chose to get out of their situations.  Working hard is a guarantee but to what point is acceptable to the individual that is doing the work.  If they are just working hard to live "outside" of their means (upscale car, home, brand clothing, all the channels on tv, excess, excess, excess), than ya, working hard is a dead end, they will never escape.  But if those folks prioritize and fully understand that anything above the basics are a luxury, than yes, they will succeed.  I make plenty enough for me, yet I still shop at thrift stores, go to auctions and estate sales for a good chunk of stuff that we use on a regular basis.  Used gear does work.  I do buy new stuff too, but for the most part, used is good enough.

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realshelby
13 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 Working hard is a guarantee but to what point is acceptable to the individual that is doing the work.  If they are just working hard to live "outside" of their means (upscale car, home, brand clothing, all the channels on tv, excess, excess, excess), than ya, working hard is a dead end, they will never escape.  But if those folks prioritize and fully understand that anything above the basics are a luxury, than yes, they will succeed.  I make plenty enough for me, yet I still shop at thrift stores, go to auctions and estate sales for a good chunk of stuff that we use on a regular basis.  Used gear does work.  I do buy new stuff too, but for the most part, used is good enough.

While we don't completely agree on providing help for some to become better beyond simply trying harder ( or some other things! ), what you write above is more important than any program, handout, or reparation. While I am "successful" by about any measure, I could still live in a trailer on a piece of property in the country where land is cheaper and be happier than 90% of the people with a LOT more to show. Living below your means is a habit and you are not born with it. Can be taught by parents, or it can be learned from life lessons. Working construction as my first real job, in WV where 2-3 months a year the weather meant no job, WILL teach you to manage money! Our economy frowns on this of course, but much of the things too many buy just to get a rush from buying are made in China anyway. Less is More in many ways. 

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mickeym3

Right on Terry, “success” as defined by today’s society has no correlation to happiness. Positive attitude and good role models go a long way toward that. Growing up we had very little and faced some tremendous adversity but loving relationships cemented my path towards happiness. Choices play a huge role of course, guided by a “moral compass” because there are plenty of crossroads along the way. Know marrying my wife of 45 years was a stroke of genius with some divine intervention thrown in. Relative to the thread though I wonder if I didn’t enjoy some “white privilege” since I was reared within a close family unit and in rural America. While there was plenty of despair at times there was never a sense of hopelessness. Think much of the desperation bubbling over now is because the disadvantaged feel hopeless in their current situation because so little has changed in many regards.  There will always be those who succeed despite poverty, broken homes, substandard schools etc. but the path to attain true happiness, education and prosperity of spirit must be made far wider than it is today.  Police reform and improving educational opportunities is a small but necessary step toward that. 

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Antimatter
21 hours ago, BrianM said:

 

It is not as simple as you think it is.

 

Having sat in many meetings with local industry, training an employee is much more complicated than just learning the position. Much of job training (even 2 and 4 year degrees) is to give workers the skills for entry level and then learn the rest on the job using the skills learned in school.

 

If it was easy, more companies would be doing it. Having an internal training program can be quite expensive. Much ceaper to subsidize employee training. I have taught classes for groups of company employees. Of course if the government is willing to help (often due to companies asking them to), companies are more than happy to take advantage.

 

 

I was struck by this when talking to two younger guys I do track days with.  Both graduated from the local vocational college with one trained for pipe-fitting, the other for industrial welding.  Both had to complete their schooling, do off-hours and low wage work before being invited to join the local union.  A third member of our group, who's an established union pipe-fitter, helped get them in.  If I'm wrong, please correct me - but it seems like many companies actually provided this sort of training of apprenticeship back in the day.  Heck, I remember hearing from an older relative that, when he was working for 3M, they let him study for his MBA while 'working' there full time.  He also got a pension, and full medical coverage, something I'm pretty sure isn't offered to today's new hires.  My sense is that most companies have gotten rid of those sorts of programs as they were a drag on the bottom line, and expected future employees to get that knowledge from separate schooling or through the military.  I know that the regional broker-dealer I used to work for cut their tuition reimbursement program after one of their leading brokers had an 'oops' that resulted in a $90 million loss from fines and lawsuits.  They were later acquired by a bank, and I left shortly after that as my experience with banks as employers has been less than positive. 

Both schooling and the military are paid for by us, the tax payers at some level.  So, in reality we're already funding most of the job training done in this country whether 'blue' or 'white' collar.

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Red

If there is ambiguity in actions and outcomes between protesters and LE, I generally side with LE.  However, this young lady was not a threat to anyone, and yet the LE fired pepper balls at her.  If that is the state of mind of LE these days I'm going to have to rethink my bias.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/19/protester-dubbed-naked-athena-faces-off-with-portland-police/?link=TD_marketwatch_home_page.83461b39d1bfc251&utm_source=marketwatch_home_page.83461b39d1bfc251&utm_campaign=circular&utm_medium=NYPOST

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BendBill
9 hours ago, Red said:

If there is ambiguity in actions and outcomes between protesters and LE, I generally side with LE.  However, this young lady was not a threat to anyone, and yet the LE fired pepper balls at her.  If that is the state of mind of LE these days I'm going to have to rethink my bias.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/19/protester-dubbed-naked-athena-faces-off-with-portland-police/?link=TD_marketwatch_home_page.83461b39d1bfc251&utm_source=marketwatch_home_page.83461b39d1bfc251&utm_campaign=circular&utm_medium=NYPOST

 

I agree.  I wonder if it was one of the ragtag-trained feds who fired rather than a Portland PD officer.  Footage of the Portland protests  from the usual looting-and-rioting cable outlets reveals that the destruction pales in comparison to the riots I experienced in L.A. in the early 70s, which were bigger and more violent.  Though we lacked modern protective gear at the time, we had enough training, tactics, and discipline  to disperse crowds without theatrics.

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Hosstage

Water cannons and police dogs dispersed crowds pretty quickly.

Ah, the good old days!

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BrianM
11 hours ago, Antimatter said:

I was struck by this when talking to two younger guys I do track days with.  Both graduated from the local vocational college with one trained for pipe-fitting, the other for industrial welding.  Both had to complete their schooling, do off-hours and low wage work before being invited to join the local union.  A third member of our group, who's an established union pipe-fitter, helped get them in.  If I'm wrong, please correct me - but it seems like many companies actually provided this sort of training of apprenticeship back in the day.  Heck, I remember hearing from an older relative that, when he was working for 3M, they let him study for his MBA while 'working' there full time.  He also got a pension, and full medical coverage, something I'm pretty sure isn't offered to today's new hires.  My sense is that most companies have gotten rid of those sorts of programs as they were a drag on the bottom line, and expected future employees to get that knowledge from separate schooling or through the military.  I know that the regional broker-dealer I used to work for cut their tuition reimbursement program after one of their leading brokers had an 'oops' that resulted in a $90 million loss from fines and lawsuits.  They were later acquired by a bank, and I left shortly after that as my experience with banks as employers has been less than positive. 

Both schooling and the military are paid for by us, the tax payers at some level.  So, in reality we're already funding most of the job training done in this country whether 'blue' or 'white' collar.

Appreticeships still exist. My school does them. They are already employed and attend during the work day. At one time it was not uncommon for unions to provide training.

 

Very few companies today allow employees to go to school during the work day without having to make up the time. Ironically many of these companies expect the employees to get degrees.

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lawnchairboy
On 7/23/2020 at 8:08 AM, realshelby said:

While we don't completely agree on providing help for some to become better beyond simply trying harder ( or some other things! ), what you write above is more important than any program, handout, or reparation. While I am "successful" by about any measure, I could still live in a trailer on a piece of property in the country where land is cheaper and be happier than 90% of the people with a LOT more to show. Living below your means is a habit and you are not born with it. Can be taught by parents, or it can be learned from life lessons. Working construction as my first real job, in WV where 2-3 months a year the weather meant no job, WILL teach you to manage money! Our economy frowns on this of course, but much of the things too many buy just to get a rush from buying are made in China anyway. Less is More in many ways. 

agree 110%

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TEWKS

Bill Barr is a mighty awesome dude! :clap:

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TEWKS

When the truth don’t fit the narrative. :dontknow:


 I do have to wonder when the “silent majority” is going to speak out and put an end to this bullshit.
 

When the day comes and you have to defend yourself when the cops are MIA because of this misguided push, we’re all screwed! 

You’ll more likely end up in jail and the criminals will walk, with your car, house, bikes. :mad:

 

And yup, I do believe the few bad cops that make the decision to kill unjustified usually end up in jail.

 

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Rinkydink

Sometimes facts baffle people. 

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Centurion2058

What amazed me the most in this thread is no one said stop. Usually some one says "this isn't the appropriate platform" or "what doe this have to do with motorcycling/touring/etc." I am glad to see the  free exchange of ideas without attacks on character. Continue on, ladies and gentlemen. Maybe the answer will come forth.

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Marty Hill
On 7/29/2020 at 4:04 PM, TEWKS said:

Bill Barr is a mighty awesome dude! :clap:

Bill Barr is a disgusting swine who should be in jail.  

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TEWKS

Why? :dontknow:

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realshelby
17 hours ago, TEWKS said:


 I do have to wonder when the “silent majority” is going to speak out and put an end to this bullshit.
 

 

 

I think the "silent majority" is speaking out. 

 

No, I don't think our Police force is going to be eliminated. 

 

I do think it is long overdue to reconsider if our Police force could do a better job if objectives, tactics, and oversight were changed. 

 

 

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TEWKS

C’mon Man, :grin: do you really believe that it’s the majority of Americans out there pulling or at least, supporting this crap? 
 

strong police work below :thumbsup:

 

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