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Rinkydink

Defund the Police? Here You Go

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Rinkydink

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beemerman2k

While I think this would be a bad idea, and only make for greater problems than that which we face today with respect to police brutality--let someone try to break into my home and I cannot promise I'd be any more professional than that Minneapolis cop was to George Floyd--I do wonder about the effects of the policy.

 

Wouldn't it restore the status of the second amendment in our society?  Also, communities would end up well formed militias of their own for their mutual protection.  Among the host of problems, these could be a couple of good things that develop as a result, I would think.

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Hosstage

The gun manufacturers would have another big spike in sales. In fact, I'll bet it's happening right now.

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Rinkydink

Absolutely. It is obviously tongue in cheek. You would have to be an idiot to actually fill this out. 

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Selden

Camden, NJ provides an interesting case study on police reform: 
 

Quote

 

Camden, N.J., took its own big step in 2013. The city was in a public safety crisis, with murder rates 18 times the national average and scores of excessive-force complaints, when the mayor and City Council dissolved the existing police department and created a countywide force in its place....

 

Homicides have gone down from 67 in 2012 to 25 in 2019. Excessive-force complaints went from 65 in 2012 to three last year....

 

 

Source: https://tinyurl.com/ycgonohc

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chrisolson

A general defunding the police is stupid.  In fact a case could be made for just the opposite.  The average pay for police is suprising ... LINKY

 

Maybe paying more and requiring higher standards for that increased pay ( moral standards, character, intelligence ??? and no I don't know how you'd administer that ) also add increased monitoring of actual on job behavior.

 

From Selden's link ...

 

"A majority of the police were rehired, but each had to complete a 50-page application, retake psychological testing and go through an interview process

 

 

 

 And maybe even take a look a police unions.  Many folks complain about unions, but police unions are the some of the most powerful not only about "protecting members" but influencing policy.

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Rougarou

Maybe this analogy make sense, maybe it doesn't.......it's a dart at the board.

 

If you've been conditioned all your life that wasps stings hurt, you may avoid those wasps for fear of getting stung.  But if you are forced into an environment that is known for having many pockets of nests of wasps, wouldn't it be in your best interest to keep your guard up and suspect every wasp of being able to sting you.  Sure, you can educate yourself and understand that generally, a wasp not bothered is a wasp that won't sting you, but, it does not negate the conditioning and inherent fear that the wasp may still sting you.

 

Now, on the flip side, if you are a wasp and are always getting sprayed with chemicals and nests attacked without being provoked, all because "some" wasps are inherently bad and sting for no reason, wouldn't it be smart to work together to ensure that your fellow wasps quit stinging so that you won't get sprayed or nests attacked.

 

I dunno if this works, but if the urban environments "police" their own neighborhoods to the point of lowering crime, maybe, just maybe the police wouldn't be conditioned to be as forceful/fearful as they are and maybe, just maybe, inner city dwellers won't be conditioned to "fear" the police.

 

I think it's an issue on both sides.  Minorities are conditioned at a young age to fear the police while police are conditioned to fear the minorities.  Maybe "fear" is not a good word, but a few city black Marines that I have spoken with over the years have stated it as a "fear" of police.  I really think it's a conditioning reaction/response on both sides.

 

 

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realshelby

I learned that A&E cancelled Live PD yesterday. Very highly rated TV show. I used to watch it...my wife hardly misses an episode. 

 

What I seen going on didn't set well with me. So I didn't watch it so often. I believe Police have become to powerful for their own good. How some people were handled were little different from George Floyd. Stuff like bringing in K-9 dogs and allowing them to scratch hell out of the vehicles inside and out. Yes, there are times they found contraband. But what about all the other times, and they were not rare. I best leave it at that...

 

And, I hate to write this because I know what is coming, I think too many Police Officers just don't fit the profile "I" think they should. I am sorry, but a 5' 6" 225 lb officer commands NO respect. 

 

I typically have an open mind about Unions. Have over 16 years with the United Mine Workers. But Police Unions have ruined my general approval of unions for public employees. While it may seem like some Police are underpaid, look at their benefits and then look at some that have been there a while. Starting out is low pay, but many make a very good living. 

 

I have read many times that the Police are and have become to much like the military. I agree. When you are taught to operate that way, there is little room for common sense to be the first rule in many cases. I am not saying all Police need to be like Andy Taylor with no gun....but I DO think we have gotten away from what local Police, like city and county Sheriff, should be. 

 

Defund? I think that will work out to be a Buzzword. But change will come and I think it is overdue. 

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Rinkydink


.but I DO think we have gotten away from what local Police, like city and county Sheriff, should be.

 

Criminals have done the same. 12-13 year old kids killing each other. Mayberry didn’t have that. 

 

 

 

I’ve said from day one police unions are part of the cause of their current dilemma. A lot of the rogue policeman have had multiple “incidents” leading up to their big snafus. The unions over protect IMO. Sometimes it is what it is and they do need to be fired.
 

From a 41 year union member btw. 

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mickeym3

Agree with Terry except for the “profile” part. I respect the uniform and badge unconditionally. If I was pulled over for any reason I would keep my hands visible and would have absolutely no apprehension that the encounter would not be respectful and non-confrontational.  The more I read in recent weeks if I was a person of color I’m not sure I’d feel the same way. Until recently I didn’t see prejudice as my problem because I was reared to abhor racism. Now I recognize it as my problem because it is my brother’s problem and police reform is seriously needed. But ultimately I will always respect that badge and uniform. The thought of them running towards the twin towers rather than away will always be etched in my thinking. 

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MikeB60
3 hours ago, realshelby said:

I have read many times that the Police are and have become to much like the military. I agree. When you are taught to operate that way, there is little room for common sense to be the first rule in many cases.

Terry,

I generally agree with your post but for the life of me don't understand how you can equate operating like the military with a lack of common sense befuddles me.  Not sure when or if you served but that was far from my experience.  While most police departments have some sort of rank structure and there is a though there is a perception that many officers are equipped like the military (they really are not), that's about where the likeness ends.  Far more direct supervision in the military by leaders who have required leadership training (lots).  Soldiers are held accountable for their actions without union intervention, its not difficult to move a Soldier back to civilian life if they don't meet the standard.  US service members are not lock step robots, they operate under mission orders with the training and latitude to make sound decisions.  I've seen a few videos from some of the riots in Minneapolis where Soldiers exercised prudent restraint with folks directly in their faces doing their best to provoke them, unlike the 2 asshats in Buffalo who shoved that old man to the ground.  The military is far from perfect, the so called Aviators in the Lakota trying to disperse protesters should be grounded and kicked out along with anyone who ordered that shit show, but its a damn site better that some of these dysfunctional police departments from my perspective.                   

 

Mike

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realshelby

Mike, this was NOTHING against the military! The training they get saves lives. I did not serve in the military, so maybe I would have worded that differently otherwise. 

 

My intent was to form a picture of using strongarm tactics and even non lethal force in situations where maybe there was an alternative. Thus the common sense, or maybe the ability of a Police officer to decide if there was a way easier on BOTH the suspect or detainee and themselves. Would that have prevented an escalation? While many times you hear that these strongarm tactics are used to keep officers safe, I think they are being used a bit beyond that. I get the job can be dangerous. 

 

After all the Police are there to serve the community. That shouldn't always require force. The military is there to protect the nation. Force is expected.

 

Compassion. Empathy. Two things we are short on in our Police force today. In my opinion. 

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chrisolson

 

I think when most non-military folks look at civilian police S.W.A.T teams they see "military" style uniforms and weapons (and tactics) ... and its the proliferation of these teams even in modest sized cities and their seemingly greater integration into  day to day police work which fuels the image.   But I think there is also a good possibility that many of these police units don't have the same leadership and accountability as their actual military counterparts that Mike alluded to.  Case in point  ... 57 officers of the Buffalo Emergency Response Team resigned from the team over protest of the discipling of two officers involved in the shoving of the 75 year old protester.

 

This if a quote from the Foster City California police web page about this picture...  some heavy duty hardware ... including the vehicle...

 

The S.W.A.T. team is equipped with specialized weaponry and equipment necessary for a variety of tactical missions. The S.W.A.T. team maintains and deploys the Colt M-4 and AR-15 assault rifles, Remington sniper rifles, and H&K MP-5 sub-machine guns. Foster City S.W.A.T. Operators are issued Smith and Wesson M&P 9 mm caliber pistols. Other equipment includes night vision devices, recon robots, ballistic shields, breaching tools, diversion devices, impact/chemical weapons and other mission specific tools.

 

2092706635_ScreenShot2020-06-11at12_23_29PM.thumb.png.a27f6922e9c965276a348ed2a1493f5e.png

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ltljohn
1 hour ago, chrisolson said:

 

I think when most non-military folks look at civilian police S.W.A.T teams they see "military" style uniforms and weapons (and tactics) ... and its the proliferation of these teams even in modest sized cities and their seemingly greater integration into  day to day police work which fuels the image.   But I think there is also a good possibility that many of these police units don't have the same leadership and accountability as their actual military counterparts that Mike alluded to.  Case in point  ... 57 officers of the Buffalo Emergency Response Team resigned from the team over protest of the discipling of two officers involved in the shoving of the 75 year old protester.

 

This if a quote from the Foster City California police web page about this picture...  some heavy duty hardware ... including the vehicle...

 

The S.W.A.T. team is equipped with specialized weaponry and equipment necessary for a variety of tactical missions. The S.W.A.T. team maintains and deploys the Colt M-4 and AR-15 assault rifles, Remington sniper rifles, and H&K MP-5 sub-machine guns. Foster City S.W.A.T. Operators are issued Smith and Wesson M&P 9 mm caliber pistols. Other equipment includes night vision devices, recon robots, ballistic shields, breaching tools, diversion devices, impact/chemical weapons and other mission specific tools.

 

2092706635_ScreenShot2020-06-11at12_23_29PM.thumb.png.a27f6922e9c965276a348ed2a1493f5e.png

How much of this type of equipment was funded with Homeland Security money after 9/11?

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Rinkydink

I remember when LEOs still carried 38 revolvers. 
That doesn’t really work anymore with the average criminal armed to the teeth. Cops have been getting ambushed in their squad cars unprovoked and I understand them defending their lives right from the git go. In a perfect world you could just shoot them in the knee and take it from there. Me thinks they all are just a tad gun shy at this point.

 

 Again, I’m not condoning any bad racist behavior as in Mr. Floyd or the gentleman in Buffalo. I as an LEO personally would be scared sh**less right now. 

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roadscholar
4 hours ago, Rinkydink said:

 Again, I’m not condoning any bad racist behavior as in Mr. Floyd or the gentleman in Buffalo. I as an LEO personally would be scared sh**less right now. 

 

I wouldn't call him a gentleman, maybe a dumbass for confronting a moving phalanx of police officers then moving an object in his hand toward one in the vicinity of his weapon. Then there's the (some say conspiracy) theory it was his phone and he was trying to capture their scanner frequency which is what it actually looks like. It all happened fairly quickly and police are trained to take decisive action if threatened because they know it can become life or death consequences. Even so the officer gave him a light shove then he started backing up, lost balance on the third step back and fell. It's not their fault he's a disgruntled old codger (at best), it's his for putting himself in that situation. Or worse maybe he flopped, I've seen some pretty good ones in the NBA and that one could rank right up there.

 

Every left wing media outlet preceded the video with 'what you're about to see is disturbing' thereby coaching their audience which evidently they think is pretty gullible.

 

Here's a slow motion replay, in sports the penalty is just 10 yards, a foul shot, or an out or run scored. In real life (or racing which I did for 30years), there are no do-overs or second chances, you make a split second decision based on instinct, training, and experience and stick with it.

 

 

 

 

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Selden

Last night I again watched one of the best TED Talks I have ever seen, by Robert Sapolsky, and it seems more relevant than ever this month. He really gets going at about the 4:20 mark. 

 

 

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mickeym3

Thanks Seldon, it’s often said that people don’t change. Bunk. The book Unbroken is all about another example and there are millions more. Some are “born again” as John Newton was and many more transformed by the help of others but they all were receptive to change. When people refuse to change that’s when troubles arise. Police departments serve such a vital role in our society, I sincerely hope they are open to change, otherwise anarchy is afoot, much like on Seattle’s Capitol Hill District right now. 

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RPG
On 6/11/2020 at 9:57 AM, realshelby said:

I learned that A&E cancelled Live PD yesterday. Very highly rated TV show. I used to watch it...my wife hardly misses an episode. 

 

What I seen going on didn't set well with me. So I didn't watch it so often. I believe Police have become to powerful for their own good. How some people were handled were little different from George Floyd. Stuff like bringing in K-9 dogs and allowing them to scratch hell out of the vehicles inside and out. Yes, there are times they found contraband. But what about all the other times, and they were not rare. I best leave it at that...

 

And, I hate to write this because I know what is coming, I think too many Police Officers just don't fit the profile "I" think they should. I am sorry, but a 5' 6" 225 lb officer commands NO respect. 

 

I typically have an open mind about Unions. Have over 16 years with the United Mine Workers. But Police Unions have ruined my general approval of unions for public employees. While it may seem like some Police are underpaid, look at their benefits and then look at some that have been there a while. Starting out is low pay, but many make a very good living. 

 

I have read many times that the Police are and have become to much like the military. I agree. When you are taught to operate that way, there is little room for common sense to be the first rule in many cases. I am not saying all Police need to be like Andy Taylor with no gun....but I DO think we have gotten away from what local Police, like city and county Sheriff, should be. 

 

Defund? I think that will work out to be a Buzzword. But change will come and I think it is overdue. 

With the absence of father's in the home we no rely on Police to mold these young adolescent "fatherless" kids into men. Of course, that's a fallacy. Father's with a constant presence are needed. Without them, you have what you're seeing now. A total disrespect for authority at every level. Many groups to blame for this so I'll save that for another time. But you see it. In school, it was the male teachers who would straighten a kid out if he smarted off. I remember those being the best well organized classes I ever had. The weak male teachers and most of the females couldn't command respect and the bullies ran the asylum.

 

just sayin'

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RPG
On 6/11/2020 at 2:26 PM, realshelby said:

Mike, this was NOTHING against the military! The training they get saves lives. I did not serve in the military, so maybe I would have worded that differently otherwise. 

 

My intent was to form a picture of using strongarm tactics and even non lethal force in situations where maybe there was an alternative. Thus the common sense, or maybe the ability of a Police officer to decide if there was a way easier on BOTH the suspect or detainee and themselves. Would that have prevented an escalation? While many times you hear that these strongarm tactics are used to keep officers safe, I think they are being used a bit beyond that. I get the job can be dangerous. 

 

After all the Police are there to serve the community. That shouldn't always require force. The military is there to protect the nation. Force is expected.

 

Compassion. Empathy. Two things we are short on in our Police force today. In my opinion. 

I think that is painting with a very broad brush.

 

I was taught at a very young age to respect authority. And if the Police pulled you over, you better behave like a gentleman, show respect, say yes sir, no sir. Why?

1. Because my dad said so.

2. Because at that moment the officer is the Judge, Jury and potentially, the Executioner. (as my dad often said)

 

Of all the times I've been pulled over, I have not once ever been treated unfairly. In every case where I was guilty, I said so. Sometimes I got a warning. Other times I got a ticket.

 

Many years ago I was pulled over in Detroit, and the black officer wanted to know if I knew I made an illegal u-turn. I explained very politely, "no sir, you see, I was going this way and I believe you mistook me for that other truck over there". The officer apologized, said, "I think you're right. I was mistaken" and I was on my way.

 

Kindness and honesty goes a long way. Those two things are in short supply, causing some of the problems we see today.

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roadscholar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bud

Pretty wide brush Bill.

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roadscholar

Dont kill the messenger.

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Bud
On 6/10/2020 at 6:45 PM, Selden said:

Camden, NJ provides an interesting case study on police reform: 
 

 

Source: https://tinyurl.com/ycgonohc

 

And the facts speak for themselves. 

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Bud
3 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

Dont kill the messenger.

 

So you don't believe what was posted and are just passing along what someone else thinks?

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roadscholar

I believe there is 'some' truth in it but also don't lump everyone into one basket. Here's a TR quote I go along with 100% :

 

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”
 Theodore Roosevelt

 

 

 

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Hosstage

The mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota has just proposed a 10%, $9million cut to the police budget. Crime is at an all time high, we just went through the worst riots the city has ever seen, and just today a liquor store in a higher end neighborhood was looted in broad daylight.

Good luck, citizens.

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Bud

TR was a pretty wise guy and very advanced for his time.

 

I live in a mostly Republican county. In Illinois that is a rarity. We have the most corrupt state government in the nation and, as you know, several of our governors have been convicted of felonies. And the most recent one was let out of jail by our President, a move that made him 0 friends in Illinois. Madigan is currently under investigation by the feds. He is most likely the biggest crook of them all. All while the state's debt continues to increase and the current solution is to raise taxes on everyone till all employers and citizens decide they have had enough and leave for adjoining states.  But I digress.

 

I used to applaud the Republican party for being FISCAL conservatives. Those days are gone. Now that Trump controls the party, they all cower in fear and for the most part refuse to say anything negative about him.  Putting some of them in a bind if they are up for re-election this term. 

 

Here is the problem as I see it. There used to be compromise. No one got everything they wanted. Today it is I'm right and you are evil and I don't even talk to evil people let alone compromise with them on anything. Both parties have taken that position and it bodes ill for our form of government. The country will continue to be whipsawed back and forth as the parties gain and then lose control of both houses. 

 

The lack of a federal coordinated response to Covid has put on display the dysfunction of the federal government to respond on a national level. Couple that with the politicization of science, the results of which we are seeing daily in states that re-opened too soon. We can not depend on the common sense of a portion of our society to act responsibly. The results from other countries show that mask wearing and social distancing have been effective. 

 

Back to the topic at hand. Like most of my generation, I think the looting and destruction of property, public and private, do little to help the cause. I do believe the cause is just. We need a new approach to law enforcement. We need to reset the relationship with police unions. We need more accountability of all public officials. Term limits would be a good start.

 

 

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Rinkydink
54 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

The mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota has just proposed a 10%, $9million cut to the police budget. Crime is at an all time high, we just went through the worst riots the city has ever seen, and just today a liquor store in a higher end neighborhood was looted in broad daylight.

Good luck, citizens.

Brilliant!!! 
Sounds like a fail safe plan....

 

Am I the dumb one thinking that maybe we ought to at least have someone, anyone in some semblance of authority?

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TEWKS

Got to wonder where the tipping point is going to be before someone takes charge and puts an end to this bullshit.
 

Seems that most liberal minded people don’t have the ability or don’t want to understand that if this is left unchecked, the monster it becomes will eventually eat them too!  
 

Just as a child who can’t see the dangerous consequences of playing in traffic, (most children really can) they can’t seem to see the life altering issues with letting this Defund The Police BS run amuck. WHEN YOU CALL THEY AIN’T GONNA COME, PERIOD! :dopeslap:
 

Psst Hey, is there any chance some of that money can go to the fire dept side?  :rofl:

The nastiness that these shitbags have created is our future if not reined in. 
53638816_304.jpg


BTW, I don’t harbor any dislike towards the liberal minded person though it may seem that way. It’s the anarchists that are the problematic ones.

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Woodie

Why do we depend on VOLUNTEER EMS and Fire services in many areas, but paid police?  I'd like to redistribute my tax dollars to provide me with fully trained life saving medical staff, rather than partially trained (medically) LEOs. How about more $$ on jobs programs to get kids/people off the streets, rather than police/corrections $$ to get them off the street (into jail)? 

 

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TEWKS

Maybe....:dontknow:

 

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Rinkydink

Will there be people that call this racial profiling? ‘This boy is an idiot. 

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Bud
11 hours ago, TEWKS said:

Maybe....:dontknow:

 

 

Whenever you start shooting at LEO's you have put yourself in the situation where you may die. There is no excuse for behavior of this kind. NONE

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Bud
Posted (edited)

I was amazed to see this video.

 

 

A vet peacefully walks up to a group of federal agents to ask if they thought they were violating their oath to uphold the Constitution. He is NO threat. He is standing there trying to have a conversation. Results, beaten, both hands broken, pepper sprayed and yet he remains non-violent. 

 

I don't understand how anyone could look at that video and justify the use of force. Those agents had no reason to use that force on a peaceful protester. Even in Trump land, we still have some rights protected by the constitution including the right of assembly.

 

I'm sure those in charge will say they saw the video and are considering what to do. There will be no action taken and that legitimizes that kind of behavior in the future. This is an example of Law and Order run a muck. Reminds me of the Civil Rights movement in the south were dogs and fire hoses were used against peaceful protesters.

 

All of want good policing. I think most LEO's are trying their best in difficult situations. But there is a long history of the bad actors being allowed to continue in the profession because of union influences.

 

I don't support riots or destruction of property. Unfortunately it gives peaceful protesters a bad rap. Bad LEO's do the same thing. Make the general public wonder what kind of interaction they will have.

 

As an aside. In 1970 we were stationed at Ft. Benning, GA. On a camping trip to N. Georgia, I was pulled over in a small town by the archetypal southern sheriff. He asked me to come back to his car. It was around 11 at night. We talked for a long time as he was trying, IMO, to get me to pay him off. He called me "boy". Asked me why I was speeding in HIS county, etc. Finally he let me go by saying "Boy, don't you ever come back here."

 

 

Edited by Bud
add video

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TEWKS

The point of that clip was directed at the response above it. Even though not an everyday occurrence, you can clearly see why police are, and should be paid to do their job. There are bad people in this world, and there will always be bad people in this world. Without police, it's guaranteed they'll be many more of them and we the public will be left on our own to defend ourselves. And THAT will suck!

 

"tax dollars for jobs programs" Sounds a bit like wealth distribution to me. In a good economy (pre COVID) there were more jobs out there than could be filled for anyone who wanted to work. :dontknow: 

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Bud

I'm in awe of anyone who puts their life at risk to protect the lives of others.

 

I have nothing but disgust seeing excessive use of force, by a federal agent, against a peaceful protester.

 

My clip has nothing to do with Law and Order. 

 

From the reported arrests so far by the feds, they haven't been very effective in taking random people off the street, holding them with no cause and then releasing them without an explanation or arrest record. If they were really arresting looters and fire starters it would certainly be a different story.

 

 

Here is another clip from Portland. Mothers came out to protest. They are not throwing anything, not assaulting the feds, not rushing the feds position. They are exercising their Constitutional right to protest. This is intimidation by the federal agents and most likely part of a re-election strategy to provoke violence that then could be used as part of a re-election media blitz.

 

 

  

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Antimatter

Plenty of wealth distribution already going on.  From 'red-lining' to today's Fed pumping $9 trillion into the private marketplace (banks, not people), we have all the redistribution for the wealthy that we need.  Perhaps its time to distribute some wealth to those who don't own property in the Hamptons.

As to the riots, that's an American tradition.  The early colonists rioted, tarred and feathered tax collectors, and caused a lot of mayhem before the American Revolution.  Should you ask nicely for change if you feel you've been wronged?  Ask the Founding Fathers - I think you'd know their response. 

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TEWKS

Seem to be believer of this ? Maybe your explanation can help reassure this family that their Son died in the name of “tradition”?
 

The match that lit this fuse is sitting in jail where he should be. In this case the justice system is in full working order. 
 

Work still needs to be done no doubt but the authority system in this country works for the majority of us no matter what your skin color. 

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Rougarou
4 hours ago, Bud said:

 He called me "boy". Asked me why I was speeding in HIS county, etc. Finally he let me go by saying "Boy, don't you ever come back here."

 

 

 

 

hehe, "The Boys of Summer",..."The Boys in Blue", "Good ole Boys", .......men and military personnel have been referred to as "boys", damn near forever "when the boys come home"  "when the boys go fighting".

 

It is "MY" county that I live in as it was "MY" parish that I grew up in, as it is MY building/s that I'm in charge of.

 

Nothing negative about you being called "boy", as the term is still used......"homeboy".

 

Now, if you were a minority, the term IS deemed/seen as a disparaging, or even considered a racist term.

 

 

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BrianM
23 hours ago, TEWKS said:

 

"tax dollars for jobs programs" Sounds a bit like wealth distribution to me. In a good economy (pre COVID) there were more jobs out there than could be filled for anyone who wanted to work. :dontknow: 

 

Which "jobs programs" ? What parts of these programs are wealth redistribution? Please be more specific.

 

Many "jobs programs" includes money for people to be able to afford to trained for a new job (or subsidizing companies to allow employees to be trained/retrained). Many companies could not fill positions because they could not find qualified candidates. I don't think of educating some one as redistribution of wealth. Also, how many of those available jobs were minimum/low wage jobs?

 

 

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TEWKS

Taking my tax money (and much more if the dem gets in) and training or educating a population for free is “wealth distribution” in my eyes. I’m paying for my kid’s education (old school I know) so he can move on from his minimum wage job in the future. (M/W is where most enter the work force at btw) :dontknow:

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BrianM
17 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Taking my tax money (and much more if the dem gets in) and training or educating a population for free is “wealth distribution” in my eyes. I’m paying for my kid’s education (old school I know) so he can move on from his minimum wage job in the future. (M/W is where most enter the work force at btw) :dontknow:

 

So your kid is going (and always gone to) to a private scool that recieves no federal/state/local funding? Your tuition payments are not a tax deduction of any sort?

Anyone in a postion to not be able to afford higher education should be stuck in that situation? Many jobs today require more than a high school diploma.

 

You do realize tax money spent on job based education returns more tax revenue than that spent (I would have to do some digging, this has been shown where I work).

A more educated population results in less unemployment, less crime, less dependance on public assistance, higher tax revenue.

 

I paid for my own college, my father was dead, my mother could not afford to help with tuition. She could however, let me live at home at no cost as long as I remained in school. Due to that alone, I could have a job and pay my tuition/books. My education has payed for itself amny times over. Without my education, who knows where I would be or what I would be doing.

 

Circumstances have much more to do with a person's future than intelligence or perseverance. Working hard is not a guarantee of anything. I see it everyday at work. I also see the result of giving people a chance to better themselves. Yes, some of this is subsidized through jobs programs. Virtually all education in this country is subsidized with tax dollars.

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TEWKS

Sorry we receive no tax deduction for his tuition payments. I’ll be back. :grin:

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Rinkydink
18 minutes ago, BrianM said:

Circumstances have much more to do with a person's future than intelligence or perseverance.

If you let it. There are too many stories of disadvantaged people standing up and taking charge of their situation. Assistance should be there to help people that want to help themselves. Period. 
 

Now (some) people use it instead of a job. Unacceptable. 

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BrianM
8 minutes ago, Rinkydink said:

If you let it. There are too many stories of disadvantaged people standing up and taking charge of their situation. Assistance should be there to help people that want to help themselves. Period. 

 

Umm, that was my point. Sometimes people just need a little help to be able to reach their goals.

 

Yes people can take charge and sometimes they succeed (hear about these). I also see the cases where they do not, often not by their choice (don't hear about these - more common). 

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BrianM
35 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Sorry we receive no tax deduction for his tuition payments. I’ll be back. :grin:

And the other questions?

 

Kids ever attend public schools?

Do the private schools receive any tax revenues (including things like grants)?

Do the institutions get any tax breaks?

 

Surprised your (private School) tuition is not deductible, Republicans like that.

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mickeym3

Well, it’s guaranteed that if nothing is done not much will change. Police reform ( fixing union support of chronic offenders would be a good start) is needed.  Deterrent for bad police practices is achieved by the offenders having no false sense of security provided by unions. I’d imagine the costs of improved and standard training would be easily offset by reductions in litigation costs associated with bad policing.  We’re hearing a ground swell of calling for reparations.  I’d suggest every penny of any such expenditures go directly to school lunch programs and making sure inner city and other schools chronically under performing become absolutely the very best schools in the district.  There are thousands of smart kids in those schools, give them the best teachers (and pay premiums to retain them) to be role models and those same kids will find ways to pursue vocational training or higher education.  

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Joe Frickin' Friday
3 hours ago, TEWKS said:

Taking my tax money (and much more if the dem gets in) and training or educating a population for free is “wealth distribution” in my eyes.

 

It's already happening.  Don't know about other universities, but here in Ann Arbor, the University of Michigan owns about $5B worth of properties - and they don't pay any property tax on it.

 

On a related note, my wife and I do pay property tax for the house we own.  Part of which funds public schools, even though we don't have any kids.  I'm not complaining; as BrianM notes, using tax money to pay for or subsidize education yields a positive ROI for the whole society.

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TEWKS

I realize property taxes fund public schools and state taxes subsidize state colleges so I suppose, Brian made his point. 

 

How about internships at companies looking for above minimum wage workers?

First year pay is MW until you learn the position. Pass muster and become a full time employee with competitive pay and benefits. Most big money companies could afford this if in a growing economy.   
 

Independent voter BTW, the best candidate gets the check mark. ;) 

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