How's this for keeping a light grip on the bars?

[russell_bynum]

 

These guys rule!

[randy]

you are correct, that is amazing.

[Paul Mihalka]

I think they steer more with their butt than with the handlebar. The bar is mostly a place to mount the throttle and brake/clutch levers. All it takes is a touch to start the turn and the rest is body. Start with Keith Code counter steering and follow with Reg Pridmore body steering

[Mike O]

Russell,

 

How in the world do those photographers ever get these shots?

 

Or are you trailing them with your Brownie Box camera?

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[russell_bynum]

Russell,

 

How in the world do those photographers ever get these shots?

 

Or are you trailing them with your Brownie Box camera?

 

I was leading for a while, then got bored, so I backed off and followed for a while, riding with one hand while shooting pics with the other.

 

The pro photo gurus are using really long lenses with Image stabilisation, and they're taking pics rapid-fire...8 pics per second or more.

 

I figure they probably throw out 98% of their pics, but they keep some awesome stuff like this one.

[steve.foote]

He may have a light grip on the bars, but it looks like he's gripping the seat pretty tight.

[Voodoo]

Nice!

[Kitsap]

He may have a light grip on the bars, but it looks like he's gripping the seat pretty tight.

 

LOL

[hophead]

"Start with Keith Code counter steering and follow with Reg Pridmore body steering"

 

Dude am I the only one who thinks this may indeed be the secret? Based on what writings of each I have read, and thereupon gone out to practice accordingly upon, to be, at least instinctinvely, possible. Further thoughts?

[russell_bynum]

I think they steer more with their butt than with the handlebar. The bar is mostly a place to mount the throttle and brake/clutch levers. All it takes is a touch to start the turn and the rest is body. Start with Keith Code counter steering and follow with Reg Pridmore body steering

 

Absolutely. Countersteer to get the bike quickly turned and headed into the corner, then trim it with body position and throttle.

[rdfrantz]

Laney, full lean, K1200RS, Parking Lot.

 

 

Best wishes.

[russell_bynum]

Laney, full lean, K1200RS, Parking Lot. I was hoping you'd post this picture. Her clutch hand tells the story...the left handlebar could fall off the motorcycle and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

[timmr]

Yeah, but she rides like a girl.

[Hiawatha]

Is it possible he is reaching for the clutch or just letting the lever go? Either way that makes it even phenomenal.

[quacker944]

On the track I steer with my body position, my foot load and my front brakes not by heavy countersteering - to paraphrase Schwantz 'grip the bars like you'd hold a baby bird'

Trail braking alters the attitude and wheel base of the bike enabling a tighter arc and later braking. All the motogp riders use this technique to go fast. flame away.

[russell_bynum]

flame away.

 

Why?

[tallman]

Now I get it, I always felt the need to hold on too tight.

[quacker944]

well usually people believe everything that Code teaches, especially that the 'only' way to turn a bike is to 'flick' countersteer so as soon as one mentions the 'dreaded' trailbrake manoeuver you get into some huge argument over the proper way to steer a bike - which is: the way that works best for you. I, of course am a great believer in a light grip and brake turning with body counter weight because it gives me a greater deal of control at my limit on my bike. Not for everyone but my does it work! My corner entry speeds [on the track] have elevated significantly now that I have effectively increased my braking distance, the bike is a lot more composed after the turn in and I can outbrake other riders on corner entry. A light touch on the grips is a big factor using this technique.

[russell_bynum]

well usually people believe everything that Code teaches, especially that the 'only' way to turn a bike is to 'flick' countersteer so as soon as one mentions the 'dreaded' trailbrake manoeuver you get into some huge argument over the proper way to steer a bike - which is: the way that works best for you.

 

Maybe I'm missing something...how do you turn a bike by trailbraking?

 

I understand the geometry changes that come from the compressed forks and raised rear end that you get under braking and how those will make the bike less stable and more willing to turn, and I understand how body weight shifts came make changes in the balance and trim of the bike. But you still have to get it turned, and as far as I know, the only way to quickly and accurately get the bike turned at speed, is through countersteering.

 

What am I missing?

[rdfrantz]

What am I missing?

 

That Trail Braking is also done with the rear brake?

 

I'm certain I showed you that. Did you just forget to pursue it? Or just get caught up in one Teacher/Method concept that "the rear brake is useless"?

 

Remember that once a bike is leaned, it's longitudinal attitude can be set by creating traction differentials between the tires, i.e. more Braking Drain (People's concept of "sliding") from the Traction Bucket at one end than the other. Greater front braking will produce a front end push or Understeer, while greater rear braking produces Oversteer, or "backing it in". And, the rear behavior can be induced by "deep deceleration" or after braking/slowing but while still desireing to change direction change rate - through the use of power.

 

Even before Apex (WHY we teach [relative] Slow In; Fast Out) by adding power to induce Power Oversteer, is rotating the bike around the Steering Head Axis. With no bar pressurse, the bars (front wheel) automatically counter-slide-steers and the bike continues in a straight line, or at the same rate of turning (degress per second). However, the turn radius increases because the bike is drifting out to a longer cirucumference.

 

Add some bar counter-pressure at that time, to the outside bar, and the the turn rate (degrees per second) increases: The turning sharpens. Consequent with the greater turning moment (Turning Force), the bike wants to roll upright toward a High-Side. So, Riders wishing to survive this "tighter turning maneuver" drop their bodies further lower and inside to counter the "upset", or in The Positive View: Trim the Balance.

 

The same phenomenon is true in Front Trail Braking: Slowing the front wheel brings the chassis momentum of the leaned bike to pivot outward around the Steering Head Axis - Producing more lean of the chassis**. When Pedroza "lost the front end" on the last lap at Turkey, it was plainly visible that the front tire did NOT "just wash out". BOTH ends of the bike hit the pavement at the same time because the rear "stepped out" and lost traction too - only a milisecond after the front tire did. That bike was "on the ground", so frigging low that Danny didn't even need to step off - his shoulders and leg were dragging, and his path was the same as the bike's path. That's way different than how a rider get's "flung" from a front tire wash-out, his body sliding on a line further up the race track than the bike's path.

 

 

I don't spend a lot of time teaching this stuff because it IS NOT BROADLY APPLICABLE TO THE STREET !! However, along with the Stability Increase that Rear Trail Braking brings, a slight direction change via rear brake pressure is both useful and fun to do on the street, just as is a "sharper turning power slide Exit" - Where the other factors of Circumstance suggest it is Prudent.

 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

**

Russell,

 

Remember when you fell at the track on the 600? I suggested to you that "it came about so quickly" because the rear tire stepped out and leaned the bike more. Doing that "right at the egde of the tire", the extra lean takes the contact point past the edge of the tire and it will "let go".

 

The obverse of that is "hidden" in "push the bike away from you/Upright" before accelerating from max lean: If the tire slides - and thus produces more lean angle - it at least leans back to where there is still tire meat to produce traction, rather than lean it over to "air".

 

Rear wheel slides do get handled with a push of the outside bar. Note the "jerk" or "momentary wobble" from many MotoGP riders during sliding Exits. The movement of the bikes is not coming from the tire loosing traction, sliding wide, and then gaining traction "by itself": The wobble comes because the Rider pushed and released the outside bar.

 

Not only does this bring the chassis and rear tire more upright, it is moving the concatct point more toward the center of the tire. This is a longer contact patch of larger area and thus more traction. It is also of a larger diabmeter which raises the overall gear ratio and thus drops (multiplied) torque. Both elements assist in regaining rear tire traction.

 

Not doing so reduced rear tire traction - Why I thought you crashed.

 

-rdf

[russell_bynum]

Remember that once a bike is leaned,

 

Right...and you get that lean with countersteering. Right?

 

I'm with you on all that other stuff.

 

My question was aimed at quacker's post, which I believe was suggesting that he turns the bike with trail braking RATHER than countersteering.

 

Personally, I think the whole "Countersteering vs. Body Steering" argument is a misdirected waste of time. There's no question in my mind that they are both perfectly valid methods for influencing the bike (in addition to the braking and powersliding skills that you mentioned) and they can all be used in concert to achieve the desired goal.

 

I think people get really caught up with Code's "No BS" bike and there's lots of chest-thumping when they prove that you can, in fact, turn a motorcycle without pushing on the bars. I haven't talked to him about it, but it is my feeling that the "No BS" bike was not intended to prove that you can not steer a bike with methods other than countersteering, but rather that countersteering was the best and easiest way to affect a quick, precise change in the bike's lean angle. I don't think code disagrees with using body weight to help make the bike go where you want, and in fact, 4 out of the 5 Level 3 drills are about how to do just exactly that.

 

Code doesn't teach trailbraking, backing it in, or anything else like that, but I believe that's more because those skills just aren't appropriate for the majority of his students, and it is more important to first master the basics.

[rdfrantz]

Remember that once a bike is leaned,

 

Right...and you get that lean with countersteering. Right?

 

I think you miss the point. I think "everyone" misses the point.

 

LEANING is not an Event.

 

Leaning is a Process.

 

I wrote a thousand words there about Leaning.

 

The end of that was the still, even, while, quite, at the same time, all the time, every moment... When cornering, virtually all the things you as a Rider do take the form and nature of Control Inputs. All those control inputs affect the Lean of the bike and thus its Turning Response. And, many also are in response to Lean angle (changes).

 

Even when accelerating - at the speeds, with the vigor, and at the lean angles used at the track - what we do with the throttle affects lean angle, and is affected by lean angle.

 

Quacker was expressing how he TURNED the bike. He did that by affects on Lean angle. Via braking. Trail braking.

 

He affected the Process the Events-Across-Time of leaning the bike and getting its wheels pointed in a new direction: Cornering. He did so via Trail Braking.

 

If, When or How something like Counter-steering, or any other control input, started a lean/cornering process, it still would be only 1% of the Process.

 

After "initiation", learning how to Corner is about what controls the other 99% of Cornering. After that, the fact or not that one might use some motion of or pressure upon the bars is only one of many Control Inputs to create and/or counter forces present in Cornering.

 

To put it a different way, as Quacker was saying, Cornering is about Turning the bike. And that can be down with main reliance upon other direction changers -- way beyond Counter-steering.

 

Best wishes.

[Voodoo]

I think people get really caught up with Code's "No BS" bike and there's lots of chest-thumping when they prove that you can, in fact, turn a motorcycle without pushing on the bars. I haven't talked to him about it, but it is my feeling that the "No BS" bike was not intended to prove that you can not steer a bike with methods other than countersteering, but rather that countersteering was the best and easiest way to affect a quick, precise change in the bike's lean angle. I don't think code disagrees with using body weight to help make the bike go where you want, and in fact, 4 out of the 5 Level 3 drills are about how to do just exactly that.

 

From Keith Code's Website on his No B.S Bike:

 

No B.S.

 

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one--in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective.

 

We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.

 

You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.

 

I tend to agree with him. While you can use your body to affect the lean attitude of the bike while leaned over - and as a result, the radius of a turn, I don't believe that you can effectively turn a street or track bike at speed from a straight line without the use of countersteering. That doesn't mean that body position doesn't help the countersteering process - and in fact, a proper body position shift makes it very easy - but it is the countersteering process that changes the direction of the machine.

[russell_bynum]

I tend to agree with him. While you can use your body to affect the lean attitude of the bike while leaned over - and as a result, the radius of a turn, I don't believe that you can effectively turn a street or track bike at speed from a straight line without the use of countersteering. That doesn't mean that body position doesn't help the countersteering process - and in fact, a proper body position shift makes it very easy - but it is the countersteering process that changes the direction of the machine.

 

One time I rode from Borrego Springs to the Salton Sea...several miles of roads with everything from sweepers, to twisties, to straights...with no hands. I had the throttle locked and the only time I touched the bars was to make minor throttle corrections when I would get to be going too fast/slow.

 

There's no question in my mind that you CAN turn a bike without countersteering (at least...without an actuall press/pull on the bars). But, it gets less and less effective as speed increases (I challenge anyone to make Turns 1 and 2 at Fontana without countersteering.), and it's certainly slower and produces a more sloppy result than countersteering would.

[russell_bynum]

He affected the Process the Events-Across-Time of leaning the bike and getting its wheels pointed in a new direction: Cornering. He did so via Trail Braking.

 

I'm confused. (what else is new, right? ) Until the bike is leaned, throttle doesn't change lean angle/wheel direction/arc and neither do the brakes. Body weight shifts can get the bike to roll away from vertical, paritcularly at lower speeds. Once the bike has started to lean, you can use all manner of inputs, from more body weight shifts, to different brake applications and throttle changes. But you've got to get the bike NOT VERTICAL before you can cause direction/lean angle changes with throttle and/or brakes. Right?

 

If, When or How something like Counter-steering, or any other control input, started a lean/cornering process, it still would be only 1% of the Process.

 

OK, I think I'm with you there. Certainly countersteering (or any of those other actions) are each just a small fraction of the whole "turn event".

[AdventurePoser]

Pic is cool. Reminds me of my commute to school...

 

Steve in So Cal

[rdfrantz]

I tend to agree with him. While you can use your body to affect the lean attitude of the bike while leaned over - and as a result, the radius of a turn, I don't believe that you can effectively turn a street or track bike at speed from a straight line without the use of countersteering. That doesn't mean that body position doesn't help the countersteering process - and in fact, a proper body position shift makes it very easy - but it is the countersteering process that changes the direction of the machine.

Emphasis mine.

 

David, in just the detail, not the overall concept, I see you've stated some incorrectness.

 

Separate Lean from Turn.

 

Contersteering only leans the bike. Keeping it leaned, and the front wheel pointed inward, is what turns the bike. How far it leans, and how quickly it leans has little to nothing to do with counter-steering except as its initiator. See my ealier comments about 1%.

 

What changes the direction of the machine is it's Overall Thrust Vector. That's the power imparted by the (rear) drive wheel, and the direction that force is pointed via the longitudinal attitude of the bike - as expressed and controlled by the variation in front and rear tire traction (reactive force) vectors. In other words push "forward", altered by the two amounts of push "sideways".

 

Counter-sterring only starts a roll moment.

 

Other things can start roll moments.

 

Particularly when leaned within a corner, the 99% portion of the cornering Process, roll moments can be initaited with In-steering, Counter-steering, Power-on, Power-off, and front and rear brake appliction. And, any latereral CG change.

 

Best wishes.

[Dennis Andress]

Thanks Dick. Most of what you wrote makes sense, as in I am beginning to understand why I use the rear brake more then others. Keep writing, I'm going to have to work with this for awhile.

 

Russell, keep in mind the difference between the profiles of the front and rear tires. When the bike is rolling in a straight line this difference has no affect on the bike's direction. However, after the bike is leaned then turning the bike becomes a product of this difference. Anything done to change the load on either wheel also affects how the bike is turning.

 

Dennis

[russell_bynum]

This is a fun conversation...I wasn't really intending to start anything when I posted the picture, but this is a cool topic and I'm really enjoying it.

 

Counter-sterring only starts a roll moment.

 

Other things can start roll moments.

 

Of those other things you mentioned, only "Lateral weight shift" will take the bike from upright, to leaned. Right? The other things will work to increase/decrease existing lean angle and such, but they will not initiate a lean. Correct?

 

Certainly a shift in body weight can do it, although it is less precise than countersteering, and gets less and less effective as the speed increases.

 

Somehow I can tell that your answer will have me out in the parking lot again this weekend on the Tuono experiementing.

 

Ah, the things we do in the name of science.

[Laney]

Yeah, but she rides like a girl.

 

Yep, and girls obviously do not care if that left handlebar falls off - 'cause we can handle it if it does.

[rdfrantz]

Counter-steering only starts a roll moment.

 

Other things can start roll moments.

 

Of those other things you mentioned, only "Lateral weight shift" will take the bike from upright, to leaned. Right? The other things will work to increase/decrease existing lean angle and such, but they will not initiate a lean. Correct?

That's not exactly correct. But, I do want to emphasize that what you are saying is largely correct. It generally is difficult to get an upright bike rolling. Counter-steering is the easiest way. Lateral CG shift is the next "easiest" way.

 

HOWEVER: While upright, IF one slides the rear tire out of line, say to the left, bringing an attitude to the bike different than the direction of travel, the bike WILL lean to the left.

 

Look at the geometry closely. That geometry is the SAME as that produced by counter steering... only that the front wheel is pointed more straight ahead than turned outward (It should be obvious the the further "outward" the wheel is turned, the more "off balance the bike is and the more strident the rolling moment). You GOT what you want from counter-steering: A rolling moment.

 

NOW, just as with counter-steering, leave the bars alone and move the body inside. Down the bike goes.

 

Usually to institute a turn in this manner, one hangs off (first) during the braking. To hold the bike on line while it is thus out of balance, the rider will have to apply pressure to the bars.

 

Get the tail wagging, and time it so it wags INSIDE, to the direction of the turn. Release the bar pressure just before the farthest excursion Inside. The bike begins to roll left.

 

Now, ALLOW the tail to visit its furthest excursion Outside and pull the bike down with the outside knee/leg. It will come FLYING down. As the roll moment enhances, release rear brake.

 

All this would be helped by intense front braking which is shortening trail and wheelbase. Release front brake an instant later and the bike will cease its rapid roll, AND THE CHASSIS ROTATION INTO THE TURN because the front "pivoting force" is being removed. The front wheel will want to wag during all this. THIS is why some (better) racers like a very light pressure front brake: They can simply keep their FINGERS on the grip and not impose forces to the bars.

 

All this is Very Advanced Riding. It needs to be learned on The Track, or in a very large, very clear Parking Lot. BE PREPARED TO FALL !!!

 

On the street, I ask Riders to limit exploration of this phenomenon - Chassis Attitude Adjustment By Braking - to ONLY use of the rear brake. That is why the very precise, and very exact Braking Drills were given in the Tutorial and in my other classes: Learn to apply ONE CONSISTEN REAR BRAKE PRESSURE. When a rear slide develops, remove only enough pressure to resolve the slide.

 

The thing after that to learn is to HOLD that pressure long enough to get the bike TO ROTATE. And not fall down doing it.

 

After three months of working with this, I became able to "adjust how much (rear) brake drag I was carrying, and edge UPWARD to a "impending slide", actually a real slide but a very slow and gentle one. This points the bike inward.

 

Why I worked with you on "Holding rear brake pressure while simultaneously applying power", was that "pro-torque" from the power begins to overcome "anti-torque" from the brake force, and produces a much smoother transition, all the time preventing "accelerating the rear slide" into an APPARENT slide with consequent Destabilization. You stay on (an increasingly tightening) line - without bobbles from brake release, the tire then "cathing", and then power-on: Each of those actions or events produces a Chassis Lurch - Something not at all desired if you have managed to get the bike leaned way over during all this, or gotten the bike "flying down toward max lean at beaucoup rate."

 

Quacker's Front Trail Braking makes all this happen in a frigging FLASH. BANG!! The bike goes DOWN!! And you'd better know how to catch and stop its roll or you're in trouble quickly.

 

That's OK by me, but at the track where a crash is acceptable during the learning experience (Or even in Practice by Real Racers). Or in a Race in Turkey if you're Danny Pedroza.

 

Stick with just the rear brake for attitude changes on the street. Please.

 

The "advanced street level" is to: Learn to power-up to stop the rear tire slide induced by rear brake pressure while leaned, and the bike rotation that results, when it's pointed in the direction you were after.

 

Best wishes.

[Carl_T]

There's real meat in this discussion, thank you Dick.