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Beerock

2012 f800gs water pump removal issues

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Beerock

I'm going to do my best to try and get the order of things correct I just got this bike and I'm a seasoned mechanic. 

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ ALL OF THIS SCROLL TO WHERE IT SAYS READ FROM HERE!

 

I knew the bike had a problem with the stator so I bought a new stator and updated rotor from a 2013 F800 GS I also changed the oil and filter and got a new LED headlight for it and Dunlop trail Max mission tires.

When I first got it I knew I was only running on the battery so I was short shifting it to preserve battery life.

One day while idling the bike I was taking pictures of the bike in the woods and the temp alarm came on. It went off as soon as I started riding it.

Now that the bike was running good with the new stator I did a couple short rides.

 

First ride was with a couple friends and we were Riding pretty hard and I was driving it to 7K to 8K My friend was in the T-Rex in front of us and I had just fixed a couple things on his bike and I filled his overflow pretty high.

When we did a couple hard acceleration runs I thought his T-Rex was spraying me with coolant from the reservoir It turns out that coolant was from my overflow reservoir. My bike didn't overheat at all until later in the day the alarm started to come on but I could make it go away if I stayed above 4,000 RPMs and 30 mph.

 

After we rode I did a bunch of research and read about how hard it is to bleed the cooling systems in these bikes I tackled it and bled the system the best I could. The bike idled for a long time and the temp fans came on and shut off and the bike never had the over heat alarm come on. So I figured I was good to go.

 

The next day we rode with two Honda RC51s a CBR 600 and R1 and some BMW 1200 Street fighter I was keeping up with the RC51s in the twisties those Dunlop trail Max mission tires are no joke on the road They perform like an 80/20 but give you the off-road ability of a 50/50 very impressed.

That day that we rode we got stuck behind a couple cars and the temp would rise and what I would do would be I would keep the bike RPMs over 4000 and it would cool itself At the end of the day I had to take the fairings off and refill the cooling system because it kept squirting out of the overflow.

 

I had bought a new radiator cap thinking that might be the problem but it wasn't

That night I bled the bike furiously doing what a couple other guys have done leaning the bike over revving it to 4,000 5,000 RPM then leaning it over on the other side and revving it again bleeding the water pump screw ETC

 

I also rented a coolant pressure tester and pressure tested the bike off I also pressure tested it while it was running there were no leaks in the system and the bike doesn't burn coolant at all No white smoke out the back No water in the oil either

 

then I would just go on short burst once it was warm and rev it to the rev limiter and the coolant would overflow again into the overflow tank

 

I also read guys used a vaccum system to ensure no air in the system.. I said why not and ended up buying this pressure tester and vaccum kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084WS3XW8/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_z7cUEb82AT8ZW

 

I then took the thermostat out of the radiator and When I took the thermostat out a A piece of plastic fell out with thermostat removal and a bunch of little plastic pieces so I was getting warmer. I read in the haynes manual you can run the bike without the thermostat so I did that once it was warm I then revved it to 78k again and sure enough the overflow filled up again and squirted out..

 

I also tested the thermostat and it tested ok.. I did the Haynes manual test and then my own test with the thermostat housing in a vice and heated water thinking maybe the thermostat opens on its own but when under pressure wouldn't open.. passed that too.. I'll post pics 

---------------READ FROM HERE-----------

Here is the part I need help with.

 

Through process of elimination it was time to do the one thing I didn't do yet which was unbolt the water pump cover upon doing that it's evident what the issue possibly is it seems the water pump impeller broke at some point in its life and only would cause these overflow bottle to fill up upon high revs due to cavitation and inducing air into the coolant system.. the first owner drove this bike to and from work and never really revved it out hard and when I ride like that it never has a problem.

 

This is where the problem starts that I need help with The Hanes manual says to install the impeller finger tight I could not for the life of me unscrew the impeller I had to break off the impeller and that showed that in case brass threaded piece I put a vise grip on the brass piece and it still wouldn't unscrew It was actually turning the engine over I put the biking gear and tried to unscrew it as well there was resistance turning counterclockwise and then all of a sudden there was no resistance and it was spinning freely I looked at the Hanes manual and it showed a pin holding the water pump gear in place I thought maybe I sheared that pin.

 

I knew something was wrong so I decided to pull the water pump again the hands manual says retrieve the water pump with your hand It does say you may need a slide hammer and I obviously did I pulled the pump out and saw the camshaft water pump drive gear It was spinning freely.

 

I then read in the haynes manual The camshaft water pump drive gear has a left-handed thread And no pin holding the gear in place.

 

What kind of BS is that!?!? 

 

They designed the camshaft water pump drive gear with a left-handed thread, the bolt requires 30nm(22ft pounds) of torque And supposedly if you didn't torque to spec it will tighten itself. 

 

WHY NO PIN??? 

 

WHILE IT'S A GREAT DESIGN BECAUSE THE IMPELLER WILL TIGHTEN ITSELF AND SO WILL THE CAMSHAFT WATER PUMP DRIVE GEAR BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU LOOSEN THE IMPELLER?? 

 

I don't think they thought about the impeller tightening to a point where it would loosen the camshaft water pump drive gear.

 

Sorry for venting..anyway I put my fingers into the hole where the water pump was and I spun the camshaft water pump drive gear counterclockwise It kept spinning and finally got tight. 

 

My dilemma is will that camshaft water pump drive gear tighten even more when I reinstall everything and run the engine or do I actually have to pull the valve cover and tighten that bolt? 

 

I had thought about reinstalling the water pump and putting two nuts on the thread of the water pump shaft and rotating it clockwise so the camshaft water pump drive gear spins counterclockwise to tighten the bolt.  it may or may not work I'm posting this to see what you guys think

 

From my own experience it seems a bolt will only self tighten to a certain degree and that's what I'm worried about I guess I could give my water pump shaft and two nuts a try to see if it actually tightens more What do you guys think

 

I ordered a new water pump gasket, impeller, two new water pump o-ring seals so I'll have the parts by Wednesday

 

The circled gear is the cam shaft water pump drive gear..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Beerock

More pics

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MVIMG_20200509_193309.jpg

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Beerock

Here's me testing the thermostat my way 

 

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Beerock

Sorry guys Roger told me to post this issue here.. I didn't realize this is for boxers. Even though the f800 has a boxer firing order?.. Hopefully someone can help

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dirtrider

Afternoon Beerock

 

 

 

 

I then read in the haynes manual The camshaft water pump drive gear has a left-handed thread And no pin holding the gear in place.

 

What kind of BS is that!?!? --It doesn't really need a pin or key as I haven't ever seen one come loose yet. But I suppose there is that first time. 

 

They designed the camshaft water pump drive gear with a left-handed thread, the bolt requires 30nm(22ft pounds) of torque And supposedly if you didn't torque to spec it will tighten itself. -- I'm not sure if it will self tighten as it operates in oil so the surfaces are pretty slick. Probably not really designed to self tighten as much as it was designed to not come loose in service.   The design was  to have enough initial torque on the bolt so it didn't slip.  

 

WHY NO PIN??? -- Probably have to ask BMW this question-- but I have worked on many 800 bikes & ride with a number of 700/800 riders & I haven't even seen one come loose on it's own yet. 

 

WHILE IT'S A GREAT DESIGN BECAUSE THE IMPELLER WILL TIGHTEN ITSELF AND SO WILL THE CAMSHAFT WATER PUMP DRIVE GEAR BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU LOOSEN THE IMPELLER?? -- Possible, but as of yet I haven't had one come loose while removing the impeller.  Maybe with your broken impeller that broken piece  jammed then drove the impeller super tight on the shaft. 

 

I don't think they thought about the impeller tightening to a point where it would loosen the camshaft water pump drive gear.-- Probably not as BMW is not really noted for thinking ahead about service concerns. They basically design for assembly ease not service ease.  

 

Sorry for venting..anyway I put my fingers into the hole where the water pump was and I spun the camshaft water pump drive gear counterclockwise It kept spinning and finally got tight. --  I would question this as being tight enough to stay tight even with the L/H spin direction. Possibly but personally I wouldn't take a chance.

 

My dilemma is will that camshaft water pump drive gear tighten even more when I reinstall everything and run the engine or do I actually have to pull the valve cover and tighten that bolt?-- Possibly, but possibly not, are you a gambler? Lot of lubricant so that gear might just spin & not tighten any more. 

 

I had thought about reinstalling the water pump and putting two nuts on the thread of the water pump shaft and rotating it clockwise so the camshaft water pump drive gear spins counterclockwise to tighten the bolt.  it may or may not work I'm posting this to see what you guys think-- I guess you could try but you won't ever know for sure until it either stays tight or comes loose when you are way out in the out-back. 

 

From my own experience it seems a bolt will only self tighten to a certain degree and that's what I'm worried about I guess I could give my water pump shaft and two nuts a try to see if it actually tightens more What do you guys think-- My personal opinion is to remove the valve cover then hold the hex on the camshaft & tighten it correctly.  To me the only thing worse than doing the job correctly the first time  is doing it over again a second time. 

 

I would probably also plan on doing that PITA valve check/adjustment as long as I was in there. (it is pain to work down between those darn frame rails). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Beerock

Appreciate the thorough response.. yes I too am worried about the oil in there as well, especially since I just changed it and did think about it spinning from the oil. 

 

The valves were recently adjusted but your right I could get in there and check them. I don't have the shims though.. if I can't seem to get it tight enough with the 2 nuts on the waterpump 22ft Ibs isn't a lot so I'll have a good idea if I'm actually tightening that amount if not more and it'll be good.. the one thing I have going it the bolt and washer/gear that came loose doesn't have much oil dropping into the tightening area so it's probably still dry..  I'll probably take the valve cover off if I can get it done that way.. 22 pounds isn't hard to turn.. it obviously came loose with med pressure on the box wrench I used to unloosen the brass fitting that use to be inside the impeller..

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dirtrider
13 hours ago, Beerock said:

Appreciate the thorough response.. yes I too am worried about the oil in there as well, especially since I just changed it and did think about it spinning from the oil. 

 

The valves were recently adjusted but your right I could get in there and check them. I don't have the shims though.. if I can't seem to get it tight enough with the 2 nuts on the waterpump 22ft Ibs isn't a lot so I'll have a good idea if I'm actually tightening that amount if not more and it'll be good.. the one thing I have going it the bolt and washer/gear that came loose doesn't have much oil dropping into the tightening area so it's probably still dry..  I'll probably take the valve cover off if I can get it done that way.. 22 pounds isn't hard to turn.. it obviously came loose with med pressure on the box wrench I used to unloosen the brass fitting that use to be inside the impeller..

 

Morning  Beerock

 

There is lot of oil in that gear area as the cam lobes toss oil all over inside that valve cover area & there are even oil  passages in that gear to toss oil around. 

 

How much torque you are applying, or  are measuring, at the water pump shaft is difficult to figure as the pump side gear is smaller than the cam end gear so you have a gear ratio to figure into your torque reading.  (this would be easy to figure).

 

The part that you won't know, and can't really figure,  is how tight the BOLT is getting as you are not back spinning JUST the bolt, you are back driving the bolt using the gear. So once the bolt  starts tightening a little you are then measuring mostly the gear to camshaft friction as well as the bolt torque (assuming  the gear to bolt position is not slipping).

 

I think the only way that (personally) I would even partially trust back driving that gear to tighten the drive gear bolt would be if I could find a cheap pump body on E-Bay then make a full sized shaft with drive pin to accept the driven gear. Then weld a nut on the outer end of that full sized shaft. 

 

Then stick that homemade pump body/shaft  into the engine then hit that welded-on-nut with an impact wrench at low power. 

 

At some point the pump drive gear was changed to plastic (this would change things) but I t-h-i-n-k your 2012 might have the metal one??? (worth checking before putting too much torque on the gear teeth) 

 

oquZe5C.jpg

800 plastic water pump drive gear.jpg

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Beerock

Yea I read about the updated gears/waterpump, that happened in 2009... They updated them 2 times.. first they went to plastic gears to lower noise... Then they updated the bearing in back of the waterpump gear from I think a thrust washer to a needle bearing..

 

I have the plastic gears and needle bearings.. 

 

Your right about torquing with the gears it will change the torque to the bolt.. I suspect it will get tight to a certain point and then I'll feel slippage.. we'll see.. I need the parts before I try it.. if anything less torque would need to be applied from the water pump shaft to get the cam gear tightened to torque spec.. 

 

When I had the box wrench over the brass piece that was encapsuled in the impeller(after I tore the impeller off) I didn't apply much force to the box wrench when the cam gear bolt loosened.. 

 

I'm actually surprised this isn't more of a common occurrence... Then again my f800 has 98k miles on it.. so I could understand a bit how this situation of the impeller not coming off easy could be rarer...

 

Actually, I just thought...  If the broken impellers pieces got lodged in the pump area it would have actually tightened the impeller more....and maybe even tightened the cam gear bolt too.. there are some wear marks on the inner pump cover.. still makes me wonder what debris caused the impeller to break..(I had finished writing this and scrolled up to see what you wrote and noticed you already said that lol)

 

I get you on the oil... But the bike sat for a night before I took the pump cover off so that cam gear bolt was tight, and that's when it got loosened.. and right after I pulled the pump I spun the cam gear until it tightened up.. and with my glove on and two fingers I could not get the gear to slip once it tightened.. but again, not sure how tight that bolt can get trying to tighten it indirectly from another gear before it slips.. 

 

Well see..

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dirtrider
2 hours ago, Beerock said:

if anything less torque would need to be applied from the water pump shaft to get the cam gear tightened to torque spec.. 

Afternoon Beerock

 

 

Common sense tells me that more torque will probably  be required as you have to account for BOTH  the bolt torque AND  the drive gear to camshaft friction as the bolt tightens the clamping loading. 

 

If you were JUST torqueing the bolt itself then less torque would be required due to the favorable gear ratio, but once the gear to camshaft clamp load is increased then a large portion of your applied torque will go into overcoming the gear to camshaft friction.   

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Beerock

In my head a smaller gear spinning a larger gear will give the larger gear more torque. Not sure if this applies since the cam shaft bolt is smaller then the larger cam gear. Torque is torque though.. a large or small socket will still beep at same torque setting but the smaller socket will require more force to beep the torque wrench.. if I can get it to hit say 22-25ft pounds I should be good (if it doesn't slip) 

 

I could work on it now but I like to have my parts in hand so I can do it all at once.. maybe I'll try just to have something to do...

 

Sucks I could be riding right now.. but at least I figured out the problem.. at least I hope

 

 

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Beerock
5 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Beerock

 

 

Common sense tells me that more torque will probably  be required as you have to account for BOTH  the bolt torque AND  the drive gear to camshaft friction as the bolt tightens the clamping loading. 

 

If you were JUST torqueing the bolt itself then less torque would be required due to the favorable gear ratio, but once the gear to camshaft clamp load is increased then a large portion of your applied torque will go into overcoming the gear to camshaft friction.   

 

Curious do you have any pictures of that bolt and washer for the cam shaft? I wondering it's a locking style washer with lines

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dirtrider
13 hours ago, Beerock said:

 

Curious do you have any pictures of that bolt and washer for the cam shaft? I wondering it's a locking style washer with lines

Evening Beerock

 

Here's the washer, I'll see if I can find one for the bolt.  (this if for the steel drive gear not the plastic gear) 

 

gear washer.jpg

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dirtrider

Here is the bolt/washer for the steel gear (I 'think' the steel gear & plastic gear bolt/washer are the same but can't confirm. (see next posting below as it does look like plastic gear is different with no washer used) 

cam gear.bolt.JPG

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dirtrider

Morning Beerock

 

This morning I looked up the later (2015)  engine with the plastic drive gear & it shows no washer used?  Last gear I removed/replaced was the early engine with steel gear so I just can't recall what the plastic gear uses for retention. Seems like it would need a washer but book doesn't show it.  Possibly bolt head just seats directly on metal hub molded into the plastic gear. 

 

 

dTcvE8x.jpg

 

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Beerock
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Beerock

 

This morning I looked up the later (2015)  engine with the plastic drive gear & it shows no washer used?  Last gear I removed/replaced was the early engine with steel gear so I just can't recall what the plastic gear uses for retention. Seems like it would need a washer but book doesn't show it.  Possibly bolt head just seats directly on metal hub molded into the plastic gear. 

 

 

dTcvE8x.jpg

 

Interesting

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dirtrider

Afternoon Beerock

 

I have looked through everything I can find & can NOT find a washer listed for the plastic drive gear  on any year 800 engine that uses the plastic gear. I even checked the 700 engine (same basic engine) & no washer listed for the plastic drive gear on that either. 

 

The retention bolt shows the same for both the steel & plastic gear so the bolt wasn't changed.

 

Here is a picture of the steel gear & washer, I just posted this so you can get a better look at the bolt as it is the same part number  bolt used on the plastic gear.  (the bolt is depicted  here sticking out but when tight it sits way up inside the gear hub). 

 

uOdKE7m.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Beerock
On 5/12/2020 at 11:24 AM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Beerock

 

I have looked through everything I can find & can NOT find a washer listed for the plastic drive gear  on any year 800 engine that uses the plastic gear. I even checked the 700 engine (same basic engine) & no washer listed for the plastic drive gear on that either. 

 

The retention bolt shows the same for both the steel & plastic gear so the bolt wasn't changed.

 

Here is a picture of the steel gear & washer, I just posted this so you can get a better look at the bolt as it is the same part number  bolt used on the plastic gear.  (the bolt is depicted  here sticking out but when tight it sits way up inside the gear hub). 

 

uOdKE7m.jpg

 

 

 

 

I want to thank you immensely for being of assistance for me! Most of the people on forums just blab give their opinion without any actual real help especially in complicated situations like this..

 

Anyway I got my new Impeller, orings and gasket today... First thing I did was pull the old orings off the water pump, I put just one regular nut on the water pump thread (where the impeller goes) put the gear on the back, slid the assembly in and began tightening the nut I put on the impeller thread(clockwise) to see if it would tighten the bolt on the camshaft gear.. I felt it get tighter and then it started to turn the engine over!!! I tightened it a tad more and the pulled the pump back out installed the new orings out some gasket maker on the water pump and pressed it in.. out the impeller on finger tight... New water pump cover gasket.... Bolted it up, pressure tested it no leaks, then vaccum tested(no leaks) and then vaccum filled with coolant.. 

 

I just bought this new kit just for this job and for future jobs... More so for this f800 knowing what a bitch it is to bleed the coolant...

 

Took it for a ride and no more coolant blowing out the overflow after high rpms...

 

I do need to do a proper coolant refill.. I still had coolant in the bike when I did the vaccum fill and I suspect because of that there still may be air in the system... I'm gonna drain all coolant tomorrow and vaccum fill it properly.. are these bikes that much of a bitch that even vaccum filling the f800 still requires bleeding from water pump? I saw a video of a guy bleeding a boxer BMW and even after vaccum filling he went to the other side of the engine and cracked two bleeder lines.... I thought vaccum filling coolant got rid of the need to open any bleed screws? 

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Beerock

Here's the kit

MVIMG_20200512_141906.jpg

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, Beerock said:

 Bolted it up, pressure tested it no leaks, then vacuum tested(no leaks) and then vacuum filled with coolant.. 

 

Took it for a ride and no more coolant blowing out the overflow after high rpms...

 

I do need to do a proper coolant refill.. I still had coolant in the bike when I did the vaccum fill and I suspect because of that there still may be air in the system... I'm gonna drain all coolant tomorrow and vaccum fill it properly.. are these bikes that much of a bitch that even vaccum filling the f800 still requires bleeding from water pump? I saw a video of a guy bleeding a boxer BMW and even after vaccum filling he went to the other side of the engine and cracked two bleeder lines.... I thought vaccum filling coolant got rid of the need to open any bleed screws? 

 

 

Morning Beerock

 

I haven't had a lot of problems in filling the BMW 800 cooling system. It really depends on (if) I am going to ride the motorcycle myself after the repair or quickly give it back to the owner. 

 

If I  am going to ride it myself for a few days then I just get the system full then bleed the air out at the water pump bleeder. As long as I can get the fluid level in the water  pump to be air free then the water pump won't cavitate so will pump coolant properly. (if the water pump is air bound then it just won't pump coolant).  I do usually check a couple of times for air at the water pump bleeder  just to be sure no air comes out there.

 

Once the water pump starts pumping coolant (no air in the pump) then they will pretty well self bleed on their own after a few quick heating & cooling cycles (I just keep an eye on the coolant level in the overflow bottle as that will go down  as the air self purges out of the system then the system cools down & sucks more coolant  back into the radiator from the overflow bottle). 

 

If I am going to give the bike right back to the owner then I take the extra time to vacuum bleed as that shortcuts the needed heating & cooling cycles to get all the air out  (I can't depend on someone else to keep the overflow bottle topped off until it self bleeds).

 

Please post a follow up here in a few months to let us know if that cam gear stays tight on it's own (should but would be nice to know that it really does) 

 

Also, thanks for posting this here as it is a warning to us 700/800 owners with the plastic pump drive gear-- I haven't ever had one come loose (yet) when removing the pump impeller but it looks like it can if the impeller it too tight on the shaft.

 

I think from now on if I find a tight one I will pull the pump out of the engine before horsing on that impeller as a precaution. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Beerock
3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Beerock

 

I haven't had a lot of problems in filling the BMW 800 cooling system. It really depends on (if) I am going to ride the motorcycle myself after the repair or quickly give it back to the owner. 

 

If I  am going to ride it myself for a few days then I just get the system full then bleed the air out at the water pump bleeder. As long as I can get the fluid level in the water  pump to be air free then the water pump won't cavitate so will pump coolant properly. (if the water pump is air bound then it just won't pump coolant).  I do usually check a couple of times for air at the water pump bleeder  just to be sure no air comes out there.

 

Once the water pump starts pumping coolant (no air in the pump) then they will pretty well self bleed on their own after a few quick heating & cooling cycles (I just keep an eye on the coolant level in the overflow bottle as that will go down  as the air self purges out of the system then the system cools down & sucks more coolant  back into the radiator from the overflow bottle). 

 

If I am going to give the bike right back to the owner then I take the extra time to vacuum bleed as that shortcuts the needed heating & cooling cycles to get all the air out  (I can't depend on someone else to keep the overflow bottle topped off until it self bleeds).

 

Please post a follow up here in a few months to let us know if that cam gear stays tight on it's own (should but would be nice to know that it really does) 

 

Also, thanks for posting this here as it is a warning to us 700/800 owners with the plastic pump drive gear-- I haven't ever had one come loose (yet) when removing the pump impeller but it looks like it can if the impeller it too tight on the shaft.

 

I think from now on if I find a tight one I will pull the pump out of the engine before horsing on that impeller as a precaution. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it matters if it's a plastic or metal gear if the impeller is too tight it will spin either loose.. mind you I had to test the imeplller off the water pump to get at the brass fitting and then stupidly tried to loosen it on the bike.... That's why that cam gear came loose... I never thought that's would be an issue... 

 

I'll def let you know 

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Beerock

Rode her a lot today absolutely no coolant issue....

 

Now I was playing with the scottoiler.. and noticed the vacuum hose to make it work which was T'd into the throttle bodies hoses and was not connected good where it goes into the airbox and I had heard a sucking noise for a while (red hose marked that's the new hose) no more sucking noise.. I replaced the hose but now the bike is stalling at idle...

 

Do I need to disconnect the battery so the ECU can relearn? I do have the AFxIED but I never replaced this hose until right now.. idle was higher before this..

 

I also noticed the breather hose for the fuel tank isn't connected to anything so I guess the cannister was removed (green mark on pic).but the part marked in BLUE(fuel tank breather valve) has no hose connected to it, 

 

So green is the fuel breather hose coming from the tank..

 

Hose marked in red is the vacuum line I just replaced and started the stalling.. also marked on other side of th3 fuel tank breather valve.. the throttle bodies are both connected to three hoses and the scottoiler is T'd I to the red hose(the little black shirt L hand hose)

 

Blue is the fuel tank breather

 

I disconnected the battery and touched the terminals together then did the tps reset 

 

Turned on ignition

held Wot 5 seconds

Kept it shut for 5 seconds

 

I did this 5times then shut it off

 

Started her after 20-25 seconds. Went for a short ride. seemed a little better but it's still stalling now. But not as much does the ECU need to relearn? 

 

I'm guessing the fuel breather hose is supposed to connect to the blue part? I don't know..

 

Bike ran great with that vacuum leak before I fixed it lol.. 

 

Edit: I just read about charcoal canisters and I'm guessing mine isn't there anymore...

 

So I guess the question is the hose (red) that wasn't fully connected to the air box.. did that make the ECU learn a certain way and since I fixed it, it's now not running the same?

 

It was idling a bit higher than 1k rpm before I replaced the faulty vacuum hose.. now after replacing it it idles below 1k.. and will dip and try to stay running and sometimes it will sometimes it wont.

 

I'm starting to think there maybe a vacuum lock with the throttle bodies connected to the bottom of the airbox? Maybe the first owner never had it correct or the fuel tank breather valve is stuck closed? But if it's open I won't get vacuum for the scottoiler? 

 

Hopefully you'll be able to help.. I'll pm you may be easier to talk on the phone 

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Beerock

Found a vacuum diagram none show it connecting to the airbox

Screenshot_20200516-011622.png

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Beerock

Perhaps fixing the hose showed another fault? Bad idle air control actuator? I haven't slept trying to figure out the cause

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dirtrider

Morning Beerock

 

Now I was playing with the scottoiler.. and noticed the vacuum hose to make it work which was T'd into the throttle bodies hoses and was not connected good where it goes into the airbox and I had heard a sucking noise for a while (red hose marked that's the new hose) no more sucking noise.. I replaced the hose but now the bike is stalling at idle...-- You need to find where this hose originally attached. I just can't tell much form the pictures & finding a vacuum routing schmatic for the 800 bike about impossible due to the many countries that it was emissioined for & imported into.  If you look on the rear of your air box (seat removed) is about all you get for an emission hose routing sticker.

 

Do I need to disconnect the battery so the ECU can relearn? I do have the AFxIED but I never replaced this hose until right now.. idle was higher before this..-- You can TRY a battery disconnect for about 1  hour as that should clear the fueling computer learned adaptives. Even with incorrect learned adaptives it still shouldn't stall at idle though.  

 

I also noticed the breather hose for the fuel tank isn't connected to anything so I guess the cannister was removed (green mark on pic).but the part marked in BLUE(fuel tank breather valve) has no hose connected to it, --(once emission canister is removed)  You need to shorten this hose then terminate it under the seat (I use a 90° fitting stuck into  a frame hole under the seat). If it remains terminated where it is now the tank vent will suck road water into the fuel tank through that vent hose.

 

So green is the fuel breather hose coming from the tank..-- You will probably find a small inline pressure check valve in this hose, I usually remove that valve & replace it with a straight through hose  fitting. The pressure valve isn't needed once the evap can is removed & having the tank go to positive pressure can lead to cracking along the fuel tank outer edges.

 

Hose marked in red is the vacuum line I just replaced and started the stalling.. also marked on other side of th3 fuel tank breather valve.. the throttle bodies are both connected to three hoses and the scottoiler is T'd I to the red hose(the little black shirt L hand hose)-- I would have to see this in person to make an informed decision. The vacuum hoses on the 800 bikes are a real nightmare if not ALL properly marked BEFORE removal as finding a proper re-attachment diagram is about impossible (I usually have to look at a similar 800 bike if someone brings me an 800 bike with all the hoses screwed up. Some of the hoses have a natural molded design so will sort of point to their attachment points. 

 

Blue is the fuel tank breather

 

I disconnected the battery and touched the terminals together then did the tps reset -- Probably better off just disconencting the battery for about 1/2 hour then re-connect & do the TPS relearn. Even so, doubtful this would cause your stalling problem. 

 

Turned on ignition

held Wot 5 seconds

Kept it shut for 5 seconds-- It's not even proven if it is even needed on the  800 bikes but after battery reconnect just slowly sweep the throttle from idle to WOT then back to idle (do this 3 times). Still doubtful this would cause your stalling issue. 

 

 

Started her after 20-25 seconds. Went for a short ride. seemed a little better but it's still stalling now. But not as much does the ECU need to relearn? -- Yes, the ECU will re-learn the adaptives. You might want to disconnect the AFxEID so it re-learns the adaptives for a nominal o2 sensor input, then re-connect the AFxIED.

 

I'm guessing the fuel breather hose is supposed to connect to the blue part? I don't know..-- I'm not sure either as I would have to look at the motorcycle & try to figure it out (or better yet look at a correctly routed 800 bike)

 

Bike ran great with that vacuum leak before I fixed it lol..-- Then something is different now.  Maybe the idle control valve is partially plugged up. 

 

Edit: I just read about charcoal canisters and I'm guessing mine isn't there anymore...

 

So I guess the question is the hose (red) that wasn't fully connected to the air box.. did that make the ECU learn a certain way and since I fixed it, it's now not running the same?-- Possible, but idle control should respond & add enough air to keep it running.

 

It was idling a bit higher than 1k rpm before I replaced the faulty vacuum hose.. now after replacing it it idles below 1k.. and will dip and try to stay running and sometimes it will sometimes it wont.-- You might want to remove the idle control valve then clean it & the  passages leading to it (idle control valve coking up is a big issue on older 800 bikes). 

 

I'm starting to think there maybe a vacuum lock with the throttle bodies connected to the bottom of the airbox? Maybe the first owner never had it correct or the fuel tank breather valve is stuck closed? But if it's open I won't get vacuum for the scottoiler? -- If the evap can is now gone you don't  need the valve any longer.  

 

Hopefully you'll be able to help..-- The vacuum hose connections on the  800 bikes are a real problem so I always fully mark them ALL before removal.  Very difficult to try to figure out later if not marked. 

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Beerock

If the evap can is gone and I don't need the fuel breather valve do I pull the vacuum tube off of it and plug it with a bolt what about the connector can I unplug that and take the fuel breather valve completely off the bike? I need vacuum for the scottoiler though...

 

Thanks for the info on the breather hose coming off the gas tank... I was thinking about that because I do get pressure in my tank... I had a aprillia rsv1000r that I did the canister removal on. So when I open my gas tank and I heard the noise it made me think of the APE..

 

Yes I definitely know how hard it is to find a vacuum diagram NOTHING CAME UP.. even the parts fiche when looking at cannister and hoses... And when looking at the airbox it doesn't even show the T fitting at the bottom of the airbox.....

 

I was up till 3am trying to figure out why replacing the cracked hose going to the airbox would cause the idle to be lower and stall out.. I think maybe the idle actuator is faulty and that cracked hose leak allowed air into the throttle bodies allowing it to idle without stalling

 

 It may be a way to circumvent buying a idle actuator but of course putting a vent on the tube so it's now sucking in air with no filtration I would assume different size wholes would be tested to figure out the perfect idling rpm..

 

I'm willing to bet if I pull that hose I'll lose some vacuum but gain idle that won't stall...  I'll see what happens... I think that whole idle actuator assembly is BS carbs use needles to tune the idle and I don't see why you need a $100+ part to control idle. All it does is allows air into the system when the butterflies are shut.. so it can idle.. I'll drive into it at some point and report back 

 

 

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dirtrider

Afternoon Beerock

 

If the evap can is gone and I don't need the fuel breather valve do I pull the vacuum tube off of it and plug it with a bolt what about the connector can I unplug that and take the fuel breather valve completely off the bike? I need vacuum for the scottoiler though...-- You can do that as valve isn't needed. 

 

Thanks for the info on the breather hose coming off the gas tank... I was thinking about that because I do get pressure in my tank... I had a aprillia rsv1000r that I did the canister removal on. So when I open my gas tank and I heard the noise it made me think of the APE..-- I usually remove that darn pressure valve on my personal 800 bikes as it seems to reduce fuel tank cracking. 

 

Yes I definitely know how hard it is to find a vacuum diagram NOTHING CAME UP.. even the parts fiche when looking at cannister and hoses... And when looking at the airbox it doesn't even show the T fitting at the bottom of the airbox.....

 

I was up till 3am trying to figure out why replacing the cracked hose going to the airbox would cause the idle to be lower and stall out.. I think maybe the idle actuator is faulty and that cracked hose leak allowed air into the throttle bodies allowing it to idle without stalling-- You might try removing then cleaning/lubing the idle valve as well as cleaning the air passages.

 

 It may be a way to circumvent buying a idle actuator but of course putting a vent on the tube so it's now sucking in air with no filtration I would assume different size wholes would be tested to figure out the perfect idling rpm..-- Not that I suggest by-passing the idle control valve but you could always vent that open hose to the filtered side of the air box.  

 

I'm willing to bet if I pull that hose I'll lose some vacuum but gain idle that won't stall...  I'll see what happens... I think that whole idle actuator assembly is BS carbs use needles to tune the idle and I don't see why you need a $100+ part to control idle. All it does is allows air into the system when the butterflies are shut.. so it can idle.. I'll drive into it at some point and report back -- That idle control valve does more than just a calibrated air entry hole. It is used for cold start fast idle control, used as a  throttle follower (dash pot) to prevent dropped throttle stalls, used to maintain idle air flow as the o2 sensor varies the fueling, etc.   If you can get yours working (assuming it isn't working) then that would be my suggestion. 

 

 

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Beerock

Well, Sunday morning I started her up and the stalling dissapeared.. weird because I had the battery disconnected long enough to reset the ECU and did the tps reset the night before and it still did it.. I shut it off Saturday night figuringnid have to trouble shoot and magically Sunday it's fine.. ok I'll take it... 

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dirtrider
29 minutes ago, Beerock said:

Well, Sunday morning I started her up and the stalling dissapeared.. weird because I had the battery disconnected long enough to reset the ECU and did the tps reset the night before and it still did it.. I shut it off Saturday night figuringnid have to trouble shoot and magically Sunday it's fine.. ok I'll take it... 

Afternoon Beerock

 

Probably (possibly)  the idle control valve.

 

When the key is first turned on the  idle control valve finds home then backs out to cold start position, then reacts from there.  

 

If it was sticking, or slow responding, that morning start could have been the one that allowed it to start moving normally again.  

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