R1150RT - Won't Start

[R1150RTAussie]

Hi all, looking for wisdom and advice.

My Bike: 2001 R1150RT-P Single spark - 72K

After washing my bike, and being careful not to wet HES sensor area.

Bike started, all be it with some struggle, found it was dead/dying battery, left bike with no battery for couple days till new battery arrived, replaced with new battery, now bike won’t start.

Conditions:

1. Fully charged battery.
2. Fresh fuel
3. Side stand up, neutral, clutch in, kill switch in ‘Run’ position, full RID display {fuel, temp and gear 0], Green Neutral light on in HUD, fuses and relays checked all ok
4. Turned the key on, heard the fuel pump whirr
5. The bike turns over fine, just won't start.

No Spark
6. Used inline spark plug tester – No indication of ‘spark’
7. I pulled the right spark plug and ground it properly ...no spark, repeated for left, again no spark.
8. Checked for +12V at the green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good

Purchased/waiting on a LED noid light to test above
11. Checked the #5 fuse for the motronic unit and it was good.
12. T.P.S - Checked voltage at pin 2 (has a green/yellow wire going to it). When the key is off I got zero volts. When the key is on, bike in neutral or sidestand up, I got +5V.
13. Did the #5 fuse for ten minutes, then an hour,  then did throttle reset, plug wires plugged in coil, made sure all connectors connected....no spark!

No Fuel injector pulse
1. Fuel pump cycles on {Whirr}, on key to “on” position
2. Removed both fuel injectors and separated from fuel delivery hoses, when {Whirring} fuel is delivered under pressure from both fuel lines. “Into bucket”
3. Guessing, fuel pump working correctly
4. Reconnected fuel lines to injectors.
5. Checked voltage at injectors,
a. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking
b. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
c. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking
d. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
Waiting on Noid light to test further

Stumped - hoping it's not the Motrn.

Any and all help greatly appreciated
Jason

*** Currently checking HES sensor wiring, seems to be OLD style sheath on wires. ***

[Michaelr11]

You're already thinking it.   HES, hall effect sensor wiring is ruined by now.  Old style wiring, doesn't hold up to age and heat cycles. All of these bikes with that part must have the wiring repaired or replaced.

[R1150RTAussie]

Thanks @Michaelr11

 

Just checked the HES, yep needed rewiring..

 

*** Rewired *** checked off the bike 'Seems" to be working.

 

Reattached to bike.

 

Checked starting again, no go. cranks but won't fire.

 

Piggybacking into the HES to Motronic wiring, am I looking for - or + voltage 'Pulse' on each of the signal wires coming from the HES unit whilst cranking

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, R1150RTAussie said:

Hi all, looking for wisdom and advice.

My Bike: 2001 R1150RT-P Single spark - 72K

After washing my bike, and being careful not to wet HES sensor area.

Bike started, all be it with some struggle, found it was dead/dying battery, left bike with no battery for couple days till new battery arrived, replaced with new battery, now bike won’t start.

Conditions:

1. Fully charged battery.
2. Fresh fuel
3. Side stand up, neutral, clutch in, kill switch in ‘Run’ position, full RID display {fuel, temp and gear 0], Green Neutral light on in HUD, fuses and relays checked all ok
4. Turned the key on, heard the fuel pump whirr
5. The bike turns over fine, just won't start.

No Spark
6. Used inline spark plug tester – No indication of ‘spark’
7. I pulled the right spark plug and ground it properly ...no spark, repeated for left, again no spark.
8. Checked for +12V at the green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good

Purchased/waiting on a LED noid light to test above
11. Checked the #5 fuse for the motronic unit and it was good.
12. T.P.S - Checked voltage at pin 2 (has a green/yellow wire going to it). When the key is off I got zero volts. When the key is on, bike in neutral or sidestand up, I got +5V.
13. Did the #5 fuse for ten minutes, then an hour,  then did throttle reset, plug wires plugged in coil, made sure all connectors connected....no spark!

No Fuel injector pulse
1. Fuel pump cycles on {Whirr}, on key to “on” position
2. Removed both fuel injectors and separated from fuel delivery hoses, when {Whirring} fuel is delivered under pressure from both fuel lines. “Into bucket”
3. Guessing, fuel pump working correctly
4. Reconnected fuel lines to injectors.
5. Checked voltage at injectors,
a. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking
b. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
c. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking
d. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking
Waiting on Noid light to test further

Stumped - hoping it's not the Motrn.

Any and all help greatly appreciated
Jason

*** Currently checking HES sensor wiring, seems to be OLD style sheath on wires. ***

Morning Jason

 

I will just address a couple of the above  items for you-- 

 

Guessing, fuel pump working correctly--Yes, sounds like the pump is at least running correctly.

5. Checked voltage at injectors,
a. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking-- Are you measuring this between the injector green/white wire & the battery (neg post), or between the green/white & the yellow gray? -- You need to measure between the green/white & battery neg post.  This should be ON (full system voltage)  during engine cranking not pulsing. What is the high & low voltage pulse voltage? You can get some voltage variance during cranking due to starter drag through the compression strokes but it should stay at system voltage.  

b. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking--This is correct as the length of time it is on vs off is the fuel injector pulse width.

c. Green [White] 0v key off – 0v key to on position, Pulsing voltage when cranking-- Are you measuring this between the injector green/white wire & the battery (neg post), or between the green/white & the yellow gray? --This should be ON (full system voltage)  during engine cranking not pulsing. What is the high & low voltage pulse voltage? You can get some voltage variance during cranking due to starter drag through the compression strokes but it should stay at system voltage. 
 

d. Yellow [Grey] 0v key off/on/cranking-- Working correctly
 

Waiting on Noid light to test further-- You can test the injectors with a noid light but if the might not show you all you need to know. 

 

Measure  the fuel injector green/white wire at the injectors between the green/white wire & battery neg post, it should stay  above 12v during cranking & not pulse on & off (it can pulse between 10v & 12v and be normal but not pulse between 12v & 0v. 

 

 

6. Used inline spark plug tester – No indication of ‘spark’
7. I pulled the right spark plug and ground it properly ...no spark, repeated for left, again no spark.
8. Checked for +12V at the green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good-- Does the green wire stay at 12v (above 10v anyhow) during engine cranking????????????--  With no spark showing you might disconnect the green wire & black wire connector at the coil, then put a voltmeter or 12v test light across those wires & see if they flash on & off during engine cranking. If no light on, or no flash on/off, then look for Motronic not receiving proper input signal from lower  Hall-switch on the HES. 

 

One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.  

 

 

 

 

[R1150RTAussie]

Thank you so much Dirtrider,

 

1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

             0v key off –

             +12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime'  then 0v steady after initial - key to on position

            +0.1v to +0.2v when cranking                   

2. Checked between battery neg post and Green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good-- Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v

 

3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting  same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v

 

 With no spark showing you might disconnect the green wire & black wire connector at the coil, then put a voltmeter or 12v test light across those wires & see if they flash on & off during engine cranking. If no light on, or no flash on/off, then look for Motronic not receiving proper input signal from lower  Hall-switch on the HES. Unable to verify 'Flash' as don't have test light, but does show fluttering as stated above - tested with DVM, awaiting delivery of Analog Volt Meter to test further

 

One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Unfortunately unsuccessful.

[dirtrider]

Morning Jason 

 

1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

             0v key off – (normal)

             +12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime'  then 0v steady after initial - key to on position (normal)

            +0.1v to +0.2v when cranking  (this is not normal as it should be 10v-12v during engine cranking).     This circuit is  powered from the fuel pump circuit  so should be on when the fuel pump runs.  The question is "WHY" isn't the circuit powered during engine cranking?  If this circuit is momentarily powered at first key-on that means the fuel pump relay is working (at least during that initial key-on period).

The thing that brings this circuit "back on" & keeps it on during engine cranking, & keeps in on during engine running is the HES signal into Motronic. When the Motronic sees the HES input signal it turns the fuel pump relay back on.

 

So, with you seeing the initial 10v-12v at key-on but not during engine cranking that heavily points to a faulty HES input signal. (at least the place to start the trouble shooing.       

2. Checked between battery neg post and Green wire going to the coil with the key on – All Good-- Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v (normal)

 

3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting  same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering between +10.8v and +9.9v (not normal) This should show a dip to near 0 at every piston up during engine cranking. The black wire circuit  is momentarily opened by the Motronic to produce the spark. The HES signal is what causes the Motronic to do that. You might want to re-check this with a test light or an analog voltmeter, if you have a slow or averaging voltmeter it might not respond quick enough to  catch the quick dips to 0.

But worth re-checking anyhow as it is reliant on good functioning HES signal. If you are getting a  spark during engine cranking then it is probably working OK.  

 

 With no spark showing you might disconnect the green wire & black wire connector at the coil, then put a voltmeter or 12v test light across those wires & see if they flash on & off during engine cranking. If no light on, or no flash on/off, then look for Motronic not receiving proper input signal from lower  Hall-switch on the HES. Unable to verify 'Flash' as don't have test light, but does show fluttering as stated above - tested with DVM, awaiting delivery of Analog Volt Meter to test further (yes an analog meter or test light should show it)

 

One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Unfortunately unsuccessful. (Ok this means it probably wasn't locked out).

 

In reading what you have going on,  & what you have  tested, it sort of points to an HES problem. Difficult to confirm without a KNOWN-GOOD HES to install as a test.

 

If the HES is NOT the problem then possibly a failing Motronic-- Again difficult to test for without a known-good Motronic to install for a test. 

[R1150RTAussie]

Afternoon Dirtrider

 

Sooo, after your responses I checked the HES unit, by piggybacking the wires from it to the Motronic.

 

What I found at Motronic:

    Rd - +12v with key on, and whilst cranking

    Brw - Good grounding signal - constant.- Tested resistance between Brown wire and Battery Neg post, near Zero resistance.

    Or - Whilst not TDC position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on TDC position. (Found loose wire at HES to Motronic Connector, replaced connector).

    Blk -  Whilst not 180" position got +12v, dropped to 0.4v on 180" position.

 

1. Checked voltage at injectors NB: Both showing same results
a. Green [White] measured between Green[White] wire and at Neg- battery post.

             0v key off – (normal)

             +12v 'Momentary - voltage shows for same time as fuel pump prime'  then 0v steady after initial - key to on position

            +10.1v to +11.8v when cranking.       

               ***Got pulse/petrol from BOTH Injectors on correct timing marks on HES unit***

 

3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting  same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering very briefly to +0.9v 

                   *** Changed spark plugs, now getting faint blue spark from both plugs on correct timing marks on HES unit ***

You might want to re-check this with a test light or an analog voltmeter, if you have a slow or averaging voltmeter it might not respond quick enough to  catch the quick dips to 0. - Awaiting Analog V.M and Noid light to test further.

 

But worth re-checking anyhow as it is reliant on good functioning HES signal. If you are getting a  spark during engine cranking then it is probably working OK.  

 

One thing you might try is to disconnect the battery again for about 1/2 hour, long shot but with all the HES fiddling you might have the forced the Motronic into a lock-out mode.

Checking again - 

 

Bike now makes soft "puff" sounds from exhaust whilst cranking, like it wants to start, but still doesn't start

 

Thank you again good sir for your invaluable assistance.

 

[dirtrider]

 

Quote

3. Checked voltage between Coils Green and Black wires [Disconnected from coil] getting  same result - Wire Steady at system voltage +12v, dips slightly to +10.8v on cranking fluttering very briefly to +0.9v 

                   *** Changed spark plugs, now getting faint blue spark from both plugs on correct timing marks on HES unit ***

 

Morning Jason 

 

Are you grounding the spark plug wire on the opposite side from the one that you are testing for spark? Or at least stick a spark plug in the opposite side plug wire & lay it on the cylinder head.

 

Your engine uses a lost-spark type ignition system so the ignition coil sparks both sides at the same time. That means that the spark plug on one side is the ground path back to the coil for the other side (the spark path to both spark plugs is one big loop through both spark plugs then back to coil).

 

[R1150RTAussie]

Morning,

 

No, I wasn't. 

Just read up on the wasted/lost spark system, very interesting, now makes sense; without the bikes ability to know which cylinder is at what part of the stroke.

 

It's now midnight, I'll check in the morning.

 

Thank you again

[R1150RTAussie]

Good Morning,

 

After receiving my NOID light, tested both the F.I, getting dim light on each pulse, verified with F.I removed from bike, getting a "Good" spray on each injector.

 

Checked Coil wires with NOID, getting strong pulse light with each cycle.

 

Left #5 fuse out all night, reset TPS.

 

Bike still refuses to start.

 

Stumped...

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, R1150RTAussie said:

Good Morning,

 

After receiving my NOID light, tested both the F.I, getting dim light on each pulse, verified with F.I removed from bike, getting a "Good" spray on each injector.

 

Checked Coil wires with NOID, getting strong pulse light with each cycle.

 

Left #5 fuse out all night, reset TPS.

 

Bike still refuses to start.

 

Stumped...

Morning Jason

 

Checked Coil wires with NOID, getting strong pulse light with each cycle.-- Re-check the spark across the spark plugs. If you have an old (known good) spark plug just open the electorde gap to about 3mm then use that (special plug) to test for a good bluish colored snappy spark.

 

That dim flash on the injectors is something to check out. Do you still have 12v going TO the injectors during cranking? Low voltage (to) the injectors will give light spray but probably not enough to actually start the engine.

 

You might also try starting it  a few times with a with fully charged battrey, if it still won't start  then quickly remove the spark plugs & see if they are wet or dry. 

 

Have you tried holding the throttle at about 1/4 open then tried starting it?

 

If a good spark, enough fuel being injected, & decent compression then possibly your spark is not happening at the correct timing.

 

If you have a timing light put that on a plug wire then point into the timing hole & see if your spark is appearing around the TDC mark. 

[R1150RTAussie]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:19 PM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon DR

 

Checked Coil wires with NOID, getting strong pulse light with each cycle.-- Re-check the spark across the spark plugs. If you have an old (known good) spark plug just open the electorde gap to about 3mm then use that (special plug) to test for a good bluish colored snappy spark. (Getting a dull orange spark)

 

That dim flash on the injectors is something to check out. Do you still have 12v going TO the injectors during cranking? Measured between Green and Battery Neg getting +9.9v at injectors whilst cranking

 

You might also try starting it  a few times with a with fully charged battery, if it still won't start  then quickly remove the spark plugs & see if they are wet or dry.  (Wet)

 

Have you tried holding the throttle at about 1/4 open then tried starting it? Tried this, getting faint poping sounds from exhaust, 

 

I'm thinking possible bad coil, I nay have forgotten to say that this is an ex-police bike, so it has the "Upgraded/Armored" coil pack with the lock down nuts, I've pulled the coil out of the bike to check for any obvious signs of damage, can't see any. unscrewed both leads from the coil and checked continuity on their center spring connection and the spark plug seat area inside the HT socket. is this correct? If so what readings should I be getting?

 

On 5/7/2020 at 9:19 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, R1150RTAussie said:

unscrewed both leads from the coil and checked continuity on their center spring connection and the spark plug seat area inside the HT socket. is this correct? If so what readings should I be getting?

Morning   Jason

 

You didn't mention that you have an RT-P shielded coil & shielded plug wires on that motorcycle? 

 

That changes everything as those shielded  "police bike"  coils  are notorious for arcing the spark internally right  where the plug wires screw into the coil metal RFI box.

 

Probably nothing wrong with your coil, it's usually in the shielded spark plug wires, and that can be made even worse if the engine is cranked over with one or both spark plugs disconnected from  the spark plug wires (that causes increased internal arcing, then carbon traces forming, then even less spark gets to the spark plugs). 

 

unscrewed both leads from the coil and checked continuity on their center spring connection and the spark plug seat area inside the HT socket. is this correct? If so what readings should I be getting?-- It isn't the resistance that is usually the issue (in most cases the actual  resistance measures just fine) it is the spark arcing internally between the internal wire  & the RFI outer shielding that IS the issue (you really can't measure this). 

You can measure resistance from one side spark plug connection back through the coil's  secondary all the way  through the spark plug wires back to the other side spark plug connection (usually somewhere between 12K & 20K) but as mentioned that will usually test OK, it's the spark leakage that is usually the problem. 

 

Wet plugs usually point to decent fuel injected  but low or no spark to ignite that fuel.

 

New RT-P shielded wires are very expensive, used (E-Bay) shielded RT-P plug wires are a real gamble.---  Most just buy a set of used non-police bike (non RT-P) spark plug wires & a standard (non police bike) coil then replace the police bike shielded  coil & RFI covered wires with standard civilian coil & spark plug wires. 

 

Of, if you want to put  the effort in you can remove your present  coil from that darn metal RFI box then use standard RT spark plug wires with the original coil that is inside.

 

Not 100% but a very good chance that your problem is in the  internal arcing of the spark plug wires to the shielding right at the coil.

 

 

[R1150RTAussie]

Afternoon DR

 

You didn't mention that you have an RT-P shielded coil & shielded plug wires on that motorcycle?  Apologies.

 

Wet plugs usually point to decent fuel injected  but low or no spark to ignite that fuel. Thinking same.

 

New RT-P shielded wires are very expensive, used (E-Bay) shielded RT-P plug wires are a real gamble.---  Most just buy a set of used non-police bike (non RT-P) spark plug wires & a standard (non police bike) coil then replace the police bike shielded  coil & RFI covered wires with standard civilian coil & spark plug wires. 

 

Any ones, or am I looking for 1150rt ones in partuclar?

 

Of, if you want to put  the effort in you can remove your present  coil from that darn metal RFI box then use standard RT spark plug wires with the original coil that is inside.

 

Have managed to take out my coil pack from housing, it's the standard Beru 1341987, 0040400224, is there a way to check it work prior to buying a new one?

 

Thank again DR

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Jason 

 

Any ones, or am I looking for 1150rt ones in particular?-- You need the early 1150 single spark plug wires (later twin spark plug wires go to the lower spark plugs so they are different). Or the 1100RT plug wires should fit & work OK.

 

Of, if you want to put  the effort in you can remove your present  coil from that darn metal RFI box then use standard RT spark plug wires with the original coil that is inside.

 

Have managed to take out my coil pack from housing, it's the standard Beru 1341987, 0040400224, is there a way to check it work prior to buying a new one?-- Yes, well sort of anyhow-- You can check the coil's internal primary & secondary  resistance but that isn't 100% conclusive as the resistance can test good but the coil could still be arcing internally. 

 

Resistance:   Primary  0.5-.75 ohms cold coil  (between the power side terminals)

 

Resistance:  Secondary 6.5K-7.5K ohms  cold coil  (between the spark plug wire towers)

 

True test is to see if it will spark across a 3/16"  (4.7mm)  spark plug electrode gap with a snappy spark. 
 

 

 

[R1150RTAussie]

17 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Resistance:   Primary  0.5-.75 ohms cold coil  (between the power side terminals)

 

Resistance:  Secondary 6.5K-7.5K ohms  cold coil  (between the spark plug wire towers)

 

True test is to see if it will spark across a 3/16"  (4.7mm)  spark plug electrode gap with a snappy spark.

Afternoon DR

 

Have checked the resistances and they are within the specs you listed.

 

I have also ordered a set of standard RT spark plug wires.

 

Awaiting delivery, and then we shall see.

 

Thanks again

Jason