BMW R1150RT will not run!

[Richsvo]

Hi all. Sorry for the sudden appeal for help, but I am absolutely dumbfounded. 
 

2003 BMW R1150RT with about 36,000 miles, single plug model. 
 

Recently went on a 20 min or so ride to meet a friend and see his new bike. We chatted in a parking lot for about an hour. Bike ran great, both on backroads and the expressway on the way there. Then I left to go home. Since the bike had cooled, I used the “choke” to start the bike. I do this routinely when from a cold start. Anyway, a good 15 minutes into the trip home and very suddenly, I had an extremely sudden loss of power and then the bike died. I quickly got to the shoulder to prevent being run over by the semi that was behind me. The bike would not restart. I then realized that I never “unchoked”  the bike as I normally do. My head was busy thinking about other things I guess. It cranks, but will not start. Had the bike towed home and for the last two weeks, have been reading various forums and ideas to try and figure out what the problem is. 
So, here is what I know:

* Bike has spark
* I have pulled each injector and each sprays a very fine mist when cranking

* I have reset the motronic by pulling fuse and going full throttle to closed several times, reinstalling fuse and trying to start

* Fuel pump runs when key is turned

* Have unplugged O2 sensor - makes no difference

* Have pulled the cat plug relay - makes no difference

* Have checked both throttle cables and they are properly seated

* All fuses check out as being good

* Have switched several of identical relays around and no difference

* I got it started once, by holding throttle wide open while cranking but ran super rough and had to hold throttle open or it would immediately die

* Trying to start again with throttle open and all it does is backfire through the air filter

 

I’m sure there is more I have tried but can’t remember at this moment. Just not sure where to go next. First thought is to pull heads and see if I have a cracked valve or something but if there is something else to check first, please enlighten me. 
 

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time, in advance! 
 

Rich

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Hi all. Sorry for the sudden appeal for help, but I am absolutely dumbfounded. 
 

2003 BMW R1150RT with about 36,000 miles, single plug model. 
 

Recently went on a 20 min or so ride to meet a friend and see his new bike. We chatted in a parking lot for about an hour. Bike ran great, both on backroads and the expressway on the way there. Then I left to go home. Since the bike had cooled, I used the “choke” to start the bike. I do this routinely when from a cold start. Anyway, a good 15 minutes into the trip home and very suddenly, I had an extremely sudden loss of power and then the bike died. I quickly got to the shoulder to prevent being run over by the semi that was behind me. The bike would not restart. I then realized that I never “unchoked”  the bike as I normally do. My head was busy thinking about other things I guess. It cranks, but will not start. Had the bike towed home and for the last two weeks, have been reading various forums and ideas to try and figure out what the problem is. 
So, here is what I know:

* Bike has spark
* I have pulled each injector and each sprays a very fine mist when cranking

* I have reset the motronic by pulling fuse and going full throttle to closed several times, reinstalling fuse and trying to start

* Fuel pump runs when key is turned

* Have unplugged O2 sensor - makes no difference

* Have pulled the cat plug relay - makes no difference

* Have checked both throttle cables and they are properly seated

* All fuses check out as being good

* Have switched several of identical relays around and no difference

* I got it started once, by holding throttle wide open while cranking but ran super rough and had to hold throttle open or it would immediately die

* Trying to start again with throttle open and all it does is backfire through the air filter

 

I’m sure there is more I have tried but can’t remember at this moment. Just not sure where to go next. First thought is to pull heads and see if I have a cracked valve or something but if there is something else to check first, please enlighten me. 
 

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time, in advance! 
 

Rich

Evening Rich

 

You have a LOT going on there so we might have to break this into sperate posts to address all your problem systematically.

 

Lets start with the CHOKE,  it has nothing to do with anything as it ISN'T a real choke, ALL it does is hold the throttle open a bit more than at curb idle (nothing more)-- It doesn't choke anything or add any extra fuel. 

[dirtrider]

More- to address your findings & concerns___

 

So, here is what I know:

 

* Bike has spark-- Good, what color is the spark? It needs to be bluish not orange.

* I have pulled each injector and each sprays a very fine mist when cranking--THIS, could be lying to you, just a fine mist can look like a lot of fuel spray but might not be enough to start or run the engine.

 

* I have reset the motronic by pulling fuse and going full throttle to closed several times, reinstalling fuse and trying to start--You need to reinstall the fuse BEFORE do the 2 throttle openings. But it doesn't matter as this ISN'T your problm.

 

* Fuel pump runs when key is turned-- This is good.

 

* Have unplugged O2 sensor - makes no difference-- Good test & eliminates that as the cause.

 

* Have pulled the cat plug relay - makes no difference-- This isn't your problem.

 

* Have checked both throttle cables and they are properly seated-- Good that is eliminated but probably wouldn't matter anyway as you were riding the bike OK  before the problem.

 

* All fuses check out as being good -- good 

 

* Have switched several of identical relays around and no difference-- You have fuel spray & spark so all needed relays are OK.

 

* I got it started once, by holding throttle wide open while cranking but ran super rough and had to hold throttle open or it would immediately die-- This might tell us something but not an immediate smoking gun. We will have to get back to this after some testing.

 

* Trying to start again with throttle open and all it does is backfire through the air filter-- This says it is firing back through an open intake valve-- Not very conclusive as that could be due late or weak spark, or very lean fueling, or ????

 

See next post below

[Richsvo]

Thanks so much for the quick reply! 
 

I am aware that it isn’t a true choke, but reading the warning sticker on the tank made me wonder if that could have caused the issue. 
 

Saying it has spark simply means that if I take plugs out and ground to the case, they show a very nice consistent spark. Since the bike won’t run, that is only way I know to check the spark easily. 
 

I would say that when viewing the injectors and the spray it is a very nice even mist, but it did occur to me that it didn’t seem like an awful large quantity of fuel. 
 

I was just reading another post and there was mention of doing a test of the return line to see if fuel pump is pumping ENOUGH fuel. I will try that tomorrow to see if I’m getting fuel back through the return line. Makes a lot of sense. 
 

The strange part about the whole thing is how it happened so suddenly! 

[dirtrider]

23 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Thanks so much for the quick reply! 
 

I am aware that it isn’t a true choke, but reading the warning sticker on the tank made me wonder if that could have caused the issue. 
 

Saying it has spark simply means that if I take plugs out and ground to the case, they show a very nice consistent spark. Since the bike won’t run, that is only way I know to check the spark easily. 
 

I would say that when viewing the injectors and the spray it is a very nice even mist, but it did occur to me that it didn’t seem like an awful large quantity of fuel. 
 

I was just reading another post and there was mention of doing a test of the return line to see if fuel pump is pumping ENOUGH fuel. I will try that tomorrow to see if I’m getting fuel back through the return line. Makes a lot of sense. 
 

The strange part about the whole thing is how it happened so suddenly! 

Evening Rich

 

That was going to be my next suggestion to do the fuel return test. That should bless or possibly  point to the fueling supply part. (this should be the first test to confirm)-- then we will go from there. 

 

If you don't have any (or very little) fuel flow back through the fuel return hose then suspect the "U" shaped high pressure fuel hose inside the fuel tank. Those have a bad habit of splitting, or rupturing a small pin hole, then you lose most fuel pressure & supply. If just a small split or hole then you can still get a small mist from the fuel injectors. 

 

Just remember that the quick disconnect in the return hose has a check valve in the quick disconnect so you will have to hold that check valve open to get fuel to flow out of the hose. 

 

Also remember the fuel pump only runs for about 2 seconds at key on so you will either have to jump the fuel pump relay or crank the engine to get the pump to run for more than 2 seconds.

 

I will be gone the remainder of the night but will back tomorrow morning.  So run the fuel return test then we will work from there.

 

The strange part about the whole thing is how it happened so suddenly!  -- A hole or split in that "U" shaped hose can act just like this!

 

One more thing-- When you do the fuel return test, IF you get a decent flow of return fuel then pump that fuel into a container (something that you can see through like a glass jar). Then allow the fuel in the jar to sit for a while, then see if any water settled to the bottom of the jar.   

 

Were the spark plugs wet looking when you removed them for the spark test? If wet then that might point to water in the fuel)

[Richsvo]

Will do! 
 

The spark plugs looked normal to me. Grayish-brown color and dry.

 

Will have to figure out which is return line, but I’m sure there is plenty of information on that.  
 

Thanks again for the direction! 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Richsvo said:

Will do! 
 

The spark plugs looked normal to me. Grayish-brown color and dry.

 

Will have to figure out which is return line, but I’m sure there is plenty of information on that.  
 

Thanks again for the direction! 

 

Morning Rich

 

With all those starting tries & still having dry plugs sort of points to low or very little injected fuel (not conclusive but an indicator).

 

On the return fuel hose, the return hose is the upper hose BUT that assumes that the fuel hoses don't cross over each other. Those fuel hoses don't cross.

[Richsvo]

Good morning. 
 

So I disconnected the return line, and with one hand held a plastic cup under it and with the other held the starter. I got a good steady flow of fuel. I would equate it to water coming out of a water hose. Not high pressure, but good flow and constant. If I read the other post correctly, that indicates that the fuel pump is providing above 50 psi to open the regulator and allow flow back to the tank. 

 

Honestly, a little disappointed as I was hoping this would point to a fuel pump and I could get everything ordered. 

So, where to go from here? 

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, Richsvo said:

Good morning. 
 

So I disconnected the return line, and with one hand held a plastic cup under it and with the other held the starter. I got a good steady flow of fuel. I would equate it to water coming out of a water hose. Not high pressure, but good flow and constant. If I read the other post correctly, that indicates that the fuel pump is providing above 50 psi to open the regulator and allow flow back to the tank. 

 

Honestly, a little disappointed as I was hoping this would point to a fuel pump and I could get everything ordered. 

So, where to go from here? 

Evening Rich

 

That is now a good question, you do seem to have enough fuel out of the return hose to run that engine OK. (I really thought that would show low or no return flow) 

 

Did you run some fuel from the return line into a jar then allow it to settle to look for water?  Also, did you just recently put fuel in that motorcycle before it started acting up?  

 

Any chance that your bike has an aftermarket  fuel controller on it (like a Techlusion?), if so then completely disconnect that. Every now & then those things  can get moisture in them then drive the  fueling crazy.

 

One thing that you might check is to remove the front plastic belt cover then make sure the retention-clip on the HES wire harness  isn't broken therefore allowing the harness to contact something like the belt or pulley (there was a short run of 2003 1150rt bikes that had improperly hardened clips that would break in service (long shot but something to look for anyhow).

 

I'm in the middle of something at the moment so let me think on your problem while I wrap up what I'm doing. 

 

I will try to post more things to  look at or verify later tonight. 

 

 

 

[Richsvo]

Hi there. Thanks for the reply. 
 

Yes, I ran fuel into the cup and no water separation at all. I don’t have any aftermarket parts on the bike, so that is eliminated. I always fill tank full when storing for winter In garage, so it had a full tank of gas when problem happened as this was first time I had it out. 
 

I will pull the front cover now and take a look at the HES wiring, etc. and report back when done. 
 

Thanks again!

[dirtrider]

Evening Rich

 

What we know now (or at least think we know now) is that you seem to have spark & seem to have enough fuel flow at enough pressure.

 

What we don’t know at the moment  is if you have a good (strong enough)   spark to start & run the engine, or if you are getting enough fuel injected to start & run the engine.

 

It doesn’t take a lot of spark KV to jump a spark plug gap with the spark plug removed from the cylinder, it takes a pretty good KV to spark across the plug electrode gap under compression. 

 

Same with the fuel injection—A little spray from an injector can look like a lot but not be enough to start or run the engine.   

So don’t take anything for granted, just because you saw a spark one time don’t quit testing for spark as that one quick time it might have sparked OK. 

 

Same with the fuel return flow, don’t assume that the one test is final. If you can’t find another smoking gun then test it again to verify/valadate your first test findings. 

 

The thing to keep in mind is:

 

If you have enough spark

 

Have spark at the  correct timing

 

Have enough fuel injected 

 

Have water-free fuel injected

 

Have enough compression

 

Have air get in

 

Have exhaust get out 

 

THEN IT MUST RUN__

 

So what are we missing?  

 

We are  going to have to dig deeper to verify more things__

 

Do you have a timing light with an inductive pick up (clips OVER the spark plug wire).

 

You might need to make or buy a “noid" light to verify fuel injection.

 

You will need a DC voltmeter to verify enough voltage to your fuel injectors.

 

You will probably need a compression tester that will reach into the spark plug wells to do a cranking compression test to verify compression. 

 

Let me know what you have handy?
 

[Richsvo]

Hi again. 
 

I took the front cover off and everything looks great. Very clean and all wiring looks intact and held down with proper clip, etc. 

 

I have a digital voltmeter. I have a timing light (somewhere) that is the inductive type. Haven’t used in ages. I have compression tester as well. Don’t know about the noid light thing...

[Warren Dean]

Here is a question that should be worth a chuckle to you more smarter guys here...WTH is an H.E.S.? I have searched high and low so I would not have to humiliate myself asking and found no answer.  

[dirtrider]

50 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Hi again. 
 

I took the front cover off and everything looks great. Very clean and all wiring looks intact and held down with proper clip, etc. 

 

I have a digital voltmeter. I have a timing light (somewhere) that is the inductive type. Haven’t used in ages. I have compression tester as well. Don’t know about the noid light thing...

 

Evening Rich

 

You seem to be getting a spark across the spark plug electrode gaps so that sort of points to good spark plugs but if you have another set handy you might  try new spark plugs before putting a lot of effort into troubleshooting other more complex things (if your spark plugs have a carbon trace down the porcelain that will flat out  kill the spark under compression). Just one of those easy things that should be eliminate early on.  

 

OK, first thing, use your voltmeter set on the 20V  DC scale (or as low a setting as possible over 12 volts). Place the black voltmeter lead on the battery (-) post (or on a clean chassis ground), then place the red lead on one side  fuel injector green/white wire. Then crank the engine -- You need to see 10+ volts gong to the fuel injector during engine cranking. (if below 10v then we have to take a close look at this)

 

You might also look at the spark timing-- as long as your front cover is removed remove then the spark plugs, then put a wrench on the pulley bolt & turn the crankshaft until you see a piston coming up to near TDC. Then  put a pencil in through the spark plug hole (eraser first) then turn the pulley bolt until the pencil is out as far as possible (this is close to true TDC).

 

Next, put a paint mark on the front belt pulley & on the crankcase (or put paint mark on pulley to line up with a crankcase seam or something).

 

Now put your timing light on a plug wire (either side) & to battery power, then crank the engine with your timing light pointed to those paint marks on the front pulley. See if it flashes close to the paint marks lining up. 

 

You might also take the air filter cover off to see if something is totally plugging the air entrance (unlikely but needs to be eliminated early on)

 

Per Warrens post below-- do not try to use an incandescent bulb for the testing that we need to do. You need a 12v LED or a noid light. The  incandescent bulb  response is way too slow for what we need to test. 

 

 

 

[Warren Dean]

33 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

. Don’t know about the noid light thing...

 

Take a 194 bulb and straighten the curled up contact wires out straight. Works in a pinch.

[dirtrider]

16 minutes ago, Warren Dean said:

Here is a question that should be worth a chuckle to you more smarter guys here...WTH is an H.E.S.? I have searched high and low so I would not have to humiliate myself asking and found no answer.  

 

Evening Warren

 

We don't want to hijack Riches thread into  an HES thread so one quick answer then we move on-- 

 

HES stands for-- Hall Effect Sensor, the sensor that times the spark & fuel injection. 

 

 

[Warren Dean]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening Warren

 

We don't want to hijack Riches thread into a an HES thread so one quick answer then we move on-- 

 

HES stands for-- Hall Effect Sensor the sensor that times the spark & fuel injection. 

 

 

 Got it. Thanks.

[dirtrider]

Evening Rich

 

I will be gone for the rest of the night again. You have enough to get started. 

 

Think about that list that I posted above, see how much you can verify. 

[Richsvo]

Thanks to all, as always. 
 

I was rudely interrupted by some water falling on my head (rain). Bike is currently outside on the driveway. 
However I did have time to find my timing light and perform the injector test. While cranking, each injector gets approx. 10.1 - 10.2V. Seemed to fluctuate a bit, but assume that is okay. 
I think it is going to rain on/off the rest of the evening, so I will pick up in the morning with the timing check. That is one I had wondered about anyway. 
We are going out to get dinner so I will stop by and grab a new set of plugs while I’m out. I will replace those after the timing check and report back. 
 

dirt rider - Thanks for all the help thus far. It is very much appreciated!

[waynerd]

Hello Rich,

 

Only because this failure scenario (instant loss of power while underway), and your subsequent diagnosis checklist sounds exactly like my experience a few years ago, I'd like to suggest a compression check (or did I miss that you already did this?).  That helped me discover a cracked exhaust valve.  Sorry, I know that you feared that possibility in your original post.

 

DR, I know you are sensitive to folks butting in on your diagnosis chain, especially this deep into it, and I absolutely understand the reasoning, but you were instrumental in walking me through my issue back then, and I'm pretty sure that after running a fuel return test, your council was to check compression.  Less accurate with a cold engine, but the disparate numbers helped zero in on my problem.

 

Wayne

[Richsvo]

Thanks Wayne. 
 

I plan on doing the following tomorrow morning:

Timing Check

New Plugs

Compression test

 

Once all that is done, I will report back. 
 

wayne our of curiosity, did you replace the valve yourself, or have it done? Cost?

 

thanks all

[waynerd]

Hi Rich,

 

I probably did a little more than necessary, but I figured since I had the heads off...

 

With DR's sage prompting, I had someone rebuild both heads for me (de-carbon the heads, grind valves and seats, replace valve seals, and swap in new exhaust valves and guides).  I pulled the heads myself, and supplied any new parts needed.  I was lucky to find a local guy that specialized in machining and building racing motorcycle engines.  He was a great guy to work with, and did very good work.  I pulled off the valve train, leaving only valves and springs on the head.  He charged me $280 to clean, machine, and rebuild both heads.  Parts were not the same bargain, because...well BMW.  4 exhaust valves - $474 (ouch);  4 exhaust valve guides - $39;  8 valve seals - $41;  2 head gaskets - $108.  Some additional parts and cost because I also swapped in new piston rings.  Mind you (I just verified) these prices are 5-years old.  Aside from the rebuilding the heads, I did all the work myself.

 

For obvious reasons, I really hope you don't have to go down this path, and I'm sending good thoughts your way.

 

 

[dirtrider]

20 hours ago, Richsvo said:

Good morning. 
 

So I disconnected the return line, and with one hand held a plastic cup under it and with the other held the starter. I got a good steady flow of fuel. I would equate it to water coming out of a water hose. Not high pressure, but good flow and constant. If I read the other post correctly, that indicates that the fuel pump is providing above 50 psi to open the regulator and allow flow back to the tank. 

 

Morning Rich

 

I have been thinking on your fuel system test---

 

I'm still not convinced that your fuel system isn't the problem so can we go back over the fuel return test again just to positively eliminate that?

 

When you disconnect the return line did you test the fuel flow out of the  return hose COMING FROM THE REAR OF THE MOTORCYCLE? (the hose coming FROM the fuel pressure regulator)

 

With a full tank of fuel you will get fuel flow from the front (fuel tank end) as that is open to the fuel in the tank. But the return hose from the rear of motorcycle (regulator end) should only have fuel flow when fuel pump is running (just re-verifying this)

 

When testing the fuel return flow did you have the spark plugs in the engine & plug wires hooked up? (just trying to see if the engine COULD have started if it had plugs in & wires hooked up).

 

Sometimes when the in-tank hoses go back to cold they won't leak as much.

 

So every now & then during your troubleshooting put the plugs back in & hook up the wires just to see if it will start.  

 

 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Richsvo said:

Thanks Wayne. 
 

I plan on doing the following tomorrow morning:

Timing Check

New Plugs

Compression test

 

Once all that is done, I will report back. 
 

wayne our of curiosity, did you replace the valve yourself, or have it done? Cost?

 

thanks all

Morning Rich

 

When you get to your compression test-- Remove fuse #5 (Motronic fuse) as that kills the spark & kills the fuel injection. If it injects fuel & has a little spark that could significantly skew your compression readings.

 

Also hold the throttle wide open during the compression test  as that allows all the air that it needs to get full compression build.

 

With engine running OK, then a no-start right after shut-off, that doesn't sound like a valve or compression issue as at least one side should have tried to fire up (might not have run good but should have fired somewhat on the good side as chances of failing a valve or compression on both sides at the same time is pretty darn low.

[Richsvo]

Good morning all. 
 

My original plan was to check timing, then change plugs and if timing ok, try to fire again with new plugs. However, assuming the worst, I decided to do the compression check first, then fuel test again as DR had mentioned. 
Here are the results (fuse 5 pulled, throttle wide open):

 

Right side of the bike had 150+
Left side of the bike had 0

 

The needle jumps a bit, but not high enough to register. So, that sounds like something catastrophic inside that head or cylinder, unless there is something else that would cause this. I suppose a piece of carbon wedged in between valve and seat would do this, but I would expect at least a little compression. 
 

Thoughts?

[dirtrider]

45 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Good morning all. 
 

My original plan was to check timing, then change plugs and if timing ok, try to fire again with new plugs. However, assuming the worst, I decided to do the compression check first, then fuel test again as DR had mentioned. 
Here are the results (fuse 5 pulled, throttle wide open):

 

Right side of the bike had 150+
Left side of the bike had 0

 

The needle jumps a bit, but not high enough to register. So, that sounds like something catastrophic inside that head or cylinder, unless there is something else that would cause this. I suppose a piece of carbon wedged in between valve and seat would do this, but I would expect at least a little compression. 
 

Thoughts?

Afternoon  Rich

 

First thing, remove valve cover & see if you have a stuck valve (not unheard of after a long storage) -- If you find a sticking valve & it hasn't hit a piston top (yet)  then then you can usually free it up without removing the cylinder head.

 

At least see what the heck is going on in there. 

 

It might be a stuck piece of carbon but who knows.

 

You can also use your compression tester, then if you have an air compressor & blow air back in through the spark plug hole with the piston at TDC (compression). See where the air comes out (intake or exhaust), or oil fill hole.  (home grown leakdown test)

 

If carbon then  you might be able to blow that out using compressed air in through the exhaust port or intake port with the effected valve fully open.

 

If you have a bent valve then all bets are off ___

[Richsvo]

Hi thanks for the tips. 
 

Are you saying with valve cover off - rotate engine to see if both sets of valves move? Not sure how I would know if one was stuck or bent without rotating the motor?

Sorry for ignorance, just wondering how I will know for sure

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Hi thanks for the tips. 
 

Are you saying with valve cover off - rotate engine to see if both sets of valves move? Not sure how I would know if one was stuck or bent without rotating the motor?

Sorry for ignorance, just wondering how I will know for sure

Afternoon  Rich

 

You can usually see a stuck valve as there will be a big gap between valve top &  the rocker arm elephants foot. If they all look OK then bring that side to TDC compression (piston all the way up on compression stroke). If you still have a stuck valve it will be way lower than the others  & have a larger gap to the rocker arm elephants foot.

 

If the valve adjustment looks ok at TDC compression then possibly just a piece of carbon caught between the seat & valve margin (you just have to find the problem valve) 

 

 

[Richsvo]

Yup. That makes sense. 
Ok, will get to it at some point today and report back. Again, I appreciate your time and willingness to walk me through all of this. You are a life-saver, sir! 
 

Now just hoping it is just something stuck in there and not what I think it will be...

[Mike279]

I have a couple of 20 dollar bore scopes, one that connects to the computer and one that connects to the cell phone.  Both take good pictures thru a sparkplug hole.  

[Richsvo]

Hi Mike. 
 

Yup, I was looking into that as well. Would be a good thing to have for all sorts of stuff! 
Thanks for the suggestion! 
 

I did not get to the valve cover yesterday, it was too nice out to be working on bike. I will be pulling the cover off today to see what is going on and report back. 

[Skywagon]

Richsvo….if you believe a stuck valve, Look up valve staking.  It's a common issue and fix on air cooled horizontally opposed aircraft engines.  CAUTION.  BEFORE YOU DO IT CHECK WITH DR.  I HAVE NO IDEA IF POSSIBLE ON MC ENGINE AND IF SO WHETHER IT WOULD HELP OR DAMAGE.  If DR says ok and not harmful, I can talk you through it if you cant find info.  

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Richsvo….if you believe a stuck valve, Look up valve staking.  It's a common issue and fix on air cooled horizontally opposed aircraft engines.  CAUTION.  BEFORE YOU DO IT CHECK WITH DR.  I HAVE NO IDEA IF POSSIBLE ON MC ENGINE AND IF SO WHETHER IT WOULD HELP OR DAMAGE.  If DR says ok and not harmful, I can talk you through it if you cant find info.  

Morning Skywagon

 

This is usually my fix (well a version of that anyhow).

 

I am always fearful of having the valve re-sticking again right after starting then getting hit & bent by the piston.

 

So, I usually try to work some penetrating oil in  from the valve top & even on the cylinder side if possible  (through the appropriate intake or exhaust port) then whack the valve a few times.  Lubing from  the valve top is sometimes difficult due to the valve stem seal.

 

Just whacking the valve to open it then allowing the spring to close it doesn't always address the REASON that it stuck to begin with. 

 

I haven't seen many valves "stick" on the BMW 1100/1150 engines after riding the motorcycle so there might be something else going on. 

 

 

[Skywagon]

Thanks DR...I've probably done it 100 times or more on aircraft with about a 50% success rate.  All it really does is help dislodge lead that got on back side.  After I do it I rotate to top center, compression check and if there is blow back through exhaust or filler tube....I stop and look further.  The other 50% of the time it is a burnt valve or a bent guide.  Staking doesn't help as you know.  I thought for sure you would say stupid thing to do for MC...  I'm following this thread to see what the ultimate problem is.  Thanks for all you do for everyone.

[Richsvo]

OK guys. Here’s the deal:

 

Pulled off valve cover, the two valves on right were rock solid (exhaust I think?) and compressed l and the two on left side (intake) were loose and sitting at same level. So, I rotated the motor through it’s paces, and all four valves freely move in/out, so no stuck valve. So I’m guessing that you are all thinking burnt/chipped/cracked valve. I will attempt to charge the combustion chamber with air and see if I can hear it escaping somewhere, unless there is a better “next option”. I did shine a good strong flashlight through the spark plug hole and (best I can tell) piston looks intact but I can’t see whole thing of course.

 

Speaks to the suggestion above to get a borescope LOL

I may order one off of Amazon before proceeding any further with removing head just to make sure that is problem. 
 

Thoughts? 

[dirtrider]

57 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

OK guys. Here’s the deal:

 

Pulled off valve cover, the two valves on right were rock solid (exhaust I think?) and compressed l and the two on left side (intake) were loose and sitting at same level. So, I rotated the motor through it’s paces, and all four valves freely move in/out, so no stuck valve. So I’m guessing that you are all thinking burnt/chipped/cracked valve. I will attempt to charge the combustion chamber with air and see if I can hear it escaping somewhere, unless there is a better “next option”. I did shine a good strong flashlight through the spark plug hole and (best I can tell) piston looks intact but I can’t see whole thing of course.

 

Speaks to the suggestion above to get a borescope LOL

I may order one off of Amazon before proceeding any further with removing head just to make sure that is problem. 
 

Thoughts? 

Afternoon  Rich

 

Charging with air pressure is probably the next best option.

 

Just be sure that cylinder is at TDC COMPRESSION, it sounds like it was at TDC exhaust on your first try.

 

All 4 valves MUST be closed to use the air pressure method.

 

If it is stuck carbon then you might dislodge it using the whacking the valve top method.

 

Don't put too much air pressure in to begin with as that could push on the piston top & blow the piston back down the bore (use as much air pressure as you can short of turning the crankshaft off of TDC.

 

A bore scope isn't the best thing for looking at valve seating issues  on the BMW boxers (at least in though the spark plug hole)  as the valves are in the cylinder head  on the same side as the spark plug hole.  Good for looking at the piston top though.

 

 

[Richsvo]

Ok so I put air pressure to the cylinder through the spark plug hole. It is SO hard to tell where it is going though. If I put my ear to the exhaust pipe, I can definitely hear it. However when putting my ear to the head it almost sounds like it is coming back out there. Ugh! 
Everything seems to point to exhaust but I can’t say for sure. My guess is that I just need to pull the head and see what is going on. If nothing cracked/chipped I could just re-lap all the valves and see if it makes a difference. If there is something obvious, then I can address that. 
 

Would that be the next logical step? 

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Ok so I put air pressure to the cylinder through the spark plug hole. It is SO hard to tell where it is going though. If I put my ear to the exhaust pipe, I can definitely hear it. However when putting my ear to the head it almost sounds like it is coming back out there. Ugh! 
Everything seems to point to exhaust but I can’t say for sure. My guess is that I just need to pull the head and see what is going on. If nothing cracked/chipped I could just re-lap all the valves and see if it makes a difference. If there is something obvious, then I can address that. 
 

Would that be the next logical step? 

Afternoon  Rich

 

Don't remove the head until you find out where the air is coming from.

 

With the air blowing in  open & close the throttle body on that side (if airflow sound changes then the air (or some of it anyhow)  in coming out the intake valves. 

 

Before removing the head first remove the exhaust (it needs to come off anyhow for head removal) & remove the throttle body (it also needs to be removed). Then run another air test (it will be very obvious then if air is escaping from either of those areas). 

 

Also, bolt the valve cover back on  then open the oil fill cap and listen at the oil fill hole when you run another air test. (even on a good engine you usually get a little air past the piston rings & out of the oil fill  hole but not a lot). 

 

The head might very well need to be removed but you will be really upset with yourself if you remove the head  then find out that you didn't need to.

 

If you can't find the exact air escape area then maybe run another compression test on that side, possibly you dislodged something with your air test & you now have compression.  

[Richsvo]

Hi. 
 

Ok, with both exhaust and throttle body off of the head, it is very obvious that the leak is on the exhaust side. This seems to be a VERY common issue, however not sure why.  When researching this issue, before commenting here, it seemed to come up an awful lot across the inter webs on many, many BMW 1150’s. 
 

Anyway, I am going to plan to go ahead and pull the head and see what it looks like. I am assuming it would be okay, as long as no cracks/chips, to go ahead and remove the valves, clean, and re-lap them. I don’t know that I will keep this bike for too much longer. Maybe a year or so, but would like to be able to ride it this year. 
 

Thoughts on whether this makes sense or not? 
 

As always, thanks so much for the help! 

[dirtrider]

30 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Hi. 
 

Ok, with both exhaust and throttle body off of the head, it is very obvious that the leak is on the exhaust side. This seems to be a VERY common issue, however not sure why.  When researching this issue, before commenting here, it seemed to come up an awful lot across the inter webs on many, many BMW 1150’s. 
 

Anyway, I am going to plan to go ahead and pull the head and see what it looks like. I am assuming it would be okay, as long as no cracks/chips, to go ahead and remove the valves, clean, and re-lap them. I don’t know that I will keep this bike for too much longer. Maybe a year or so, but would like to be able to ride it this year. 
 

Thoughts on whether this makes sense or not? 
 

As always, thanks so much for the help! 

 

Evening Rich

 

I need to step away from my computer for a short time--Don't remove that head until I come back & give you some things to check for first.

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Hi. 
 

Ok, with both exhaust and throttle body off of the head, it is very obvious that the leak is on the exhaust side. This seems to be a VERY common issue, however not sure why.  When researching this issue, before commenting here, it seemed to come up an awful lot across the inter webs on many, many BMW 1150’s. 
 

Anyway, I am going to plan to go ahead and pull the head and see what it looks like. I am assuming it would be okay, as long as no cracks/chips, to go ahead and remove the valves, clean, and re-lap them. I don’t know that I will keep this bike for too much longer. Maybe a year or so, but would like to be able to ride it this year. 
 

Thoughts on whether this makes sense or not? 
 

As always, thanks so much for the help! 

Evening Rich

 

First, if your valves are leaking enough to not build any compression & it isn't due to a piece of stuck  carbon then they are probably WAY past any lapping procedure.  

 

Now that you have the exhaust removed roll the engine over until the exhaust valves are open  a little.

 

Then look in the exhaust ports using a small strong light. You might be able to see the inside of  valve heads enough to see something.

 

Then roll the engine over until the valves are closed then see if they look seated all the way around. 

[Richsvo]

Evening DR. 

 

So I got the exhaust far enough out of the port so that I can see the valves with a good flashlight. I would estimate that I can see all of the valve, except for about a 1/4 or the circumference that is closest to the front of the bike. I did not see anything obvious, like a piece of carbon, etc. They seem to seat well into the head when closed. When they were farther away (opening stroke of the valves) I could see about the same amount of valve and I didn’t see anything obvious; chips/cracks, etc. 

While I was out there, I decided to do the same on the intake side. You can’t see nearly as much of the valve as in the exhaust side, but from what I can see (both opened and closed) same result. Nothing obvious, chips/cracks, etc. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Richsvo]

I should probably add that even the bottom of the exhaust side valves seemed to be fairly well coated with carbon. Nothing sticking off of the edges or anything like that, but just a consistent dark color to the entire valve surface, if that makes any difference. 

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

Evening DR. 

 

So I got the exhaust far enough out of the port so that I can see the valves with a good flashlight. I would estimate that I can see all of the valve, except for about a 1/4 or the circumference that is closest to the front of the bike. I did not see anything obvious, like a piece of carbon, etc. They seem to seat well into the head when closed. When they were farther away (opening stroke of the valves) I could see about the same amount of valve and I didn’t see anything obvious; chips/cracks, etc. 

While I was out there, I decided to do the same on the intake side. You can’t see nearly as much of the valve as in the exhaust side, but from what I can see (both opened and closed) same result. Nothing obvious, chips/cracks, etc. 

 

Thoughts? 

Evening Rich

 

You are at the point that there is no set procedure, you will have to adapt & change direction as things progress.

 

Personally, my next move would probably be to roll the engine over until all valves are closed again then put some air pressure back in the cylinder, then go back into that exhaust port & see, listen  observe to try to find out which valve is leaking,  how much it is leaking, & where it is leaking.

 

Once I know what valve it is then I would probably try hitting the rocker arm for that valve right on the elephants foot with a soft hammer (or piece of hardwood & regular hammer)  while putting as much air pressure as possible into that cylinder.

 

You should hear a hollow popping as you hit the valve top & open the valve then it snaps shut.

 

This might dislodge something if it is caught between the valve & it's seat.

 

IF,  (big if here)    there is something caught under the valve then you might get it dislodged.  (at least worth a try anyhow).

 

Otherwise you will probably have to remove the cylinder head. 

 

   

 

 

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, Richsvo said:

I should probably add that even the bottom of the exhaust side valves seemed to be fairly well coated with carbon. Nothing sticking off of the edges or anything like that, but just a consistent dark color to the entire valve surface, if that makes any difference. 

Evening Rich

 

Pretty normal for an older engine. Compare to the other (good)  side if you think it looks odd.

 

I'll be off line for the remainder of  the evening__ 

[Richsvo]

I will give that a try and see if it makes a difference. Reassemble, retest compression on that side, etc. before taking what I think at this point is inevitable and removing the head and taking a closer look. 
No rush on this, but let’s say that the hammering miraculously dislodges something and I once again have compression, is there something that could be put in the fuel or something that would clean out the inside of the head (top of valves)? Sea foam, or some other kind of additive? Something I could also spray through the open ports since I have them open, or are these engines not receptive to that? Just a thought...

 

Once again, I am very thankful for all of your help thus far. I will report back tomorrow evening or when I have some time to work on it again. Since I hold an “essential position” I will be working every day this week through Thurs. 

[Hosstage]

One way to remove carbon from the engine is to get it hot and spray the intake with water mist while running, it breaks up the carbon. You will have to run the throttle to keep the motor running.

Change the oil shortly after.

[Richsvo]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

One way to remove carbon from the engine is to get it hot and spray the intake with water mist while running, it breaks up the carbon. You will have to run the throttle to keep the motor running.

Change the oil shortly after.

 

@Hosstage - Interesting concept and makes sense, however as that could be exactly what got me into this situation, I won’t be so keen to try it. LOL! 

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Richsvo said:

I will give that a try and see if it makes a difference. Reassemble, retest compression on that side, etc. before taking what I think at this point is inevitable and removing the head and taking a closer look. 
No rush on this, but let’s say that the hammering miraculously dislodges something and I once again have compression, is there something that could be put in the fuel or something that would clean out the inside of the head (top of valves)? Sea foam, or some other kind of additive? Something I could also spray through the open ports since I have them open, or are these engines not receptive to that? Just a thought...

 

Once again, I am very thankful for all of your help thus far. I will report back tomorrow evening or when I have some time to work on it again. Since I hold an “essential position” I will be working every day this week through Thurs. 

Morning Rich

 

It depends on the carbon type. If a soft fluffy carbon buildup then maybe something like steam (water) or a commercial de-carbon additive might soften & remove some of it (over a l-o-o-o-n-g time). Probably still won't get it all or get enough)

 

If it's the typical hard baked on carbon that BWM boxers seem to build up over their life then not much of anything will touch that. 

 

If you end up removing the cylinder head & find hard carbon in there you will find that will be VERY DIFFICULT to remove no matter what you use or try. (that stuff is like ceramic) 

 

How much carbon do you see on the back sides of the intake & exhaust valves when you look in through the ports? This can tell you something anyhow.

 

If you have to remove the cylinder head do some research or ask questions before just tearing it off. Removing the cam gear retaining bolt incorrectly you can end up with a broken cam chain guide ( this is BIG/BIG work to replace). 

 

 

[Hosstage]

13 minutes ago, dirtrider said: