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Potatoes

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Potatoes

My first bike was an 1150 rt. 2004. Loved that bike when it was not in the shop for clutch, final drive failure etc. it was a money pit. 
so, my question is can I avoid all that by buying a chain braveness bike? Obviously,by the question it’s obvious I know zilch about bikes except I love riding them. I’m oh so ignorant about them though.  So ty again for any input. I’ll never buy a bmw with a shaft drive again. Thanks all

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BamaJohn

I'm really sorry you had such a bad experience!  Makes me feel very lucky, because I've owned and ridden the following shaft-driven bikes over the years with no clutch or final drive issue whatever (they didn't sit idle... I've logged hundreds of thousand miles):

  • 4 Honda Goldwings
  • Honda ST1100
  • Honda ST1300
  • '89 BMW K100RS
  • '05 BMW R1200RT
  • '09 BMW R1200RT
  • '17 BMW R1200RT

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dirtrider
6 hours ago, Potatoes said:

My first bike was an 1150 rt. 2004. Loved that bike when it was not in the shop for clutch, final drive failure etc. it was a money pit. 
so, my question is can I avoid all that by buying a chain braveness bike? Obviously,by the question it’s obvious I know zilch about bikes except I love riding them. I’m oh so ignorant about them though.  So ty again for any input. I’ll never buy a bmw with a shaft drive again. Thanks all

 

Morning Potatoes

 

A chain driven motorcycle can eliminate final drive failures but not necessarily rear wheel bearing failures, a chain driven motorcycle can eliminate drive shaft failures but not prevent transmission failures.

 

Chain driven motorcycles transmit slightly more engine power to the rear wheel  as the torque doesn't need to change direction in it's delivery path. 

 

The downside to chains is that they are a big pain in the a$$ as they need to be adjusted & lubricated often, especially after riding in the rain,  (can be a pain to lubricate while on a road trip as you  need to carry the lubrication supplies with you), plus it is a messy affair at times.

 

Modern high torque  "O" ring motorcycle chains  are expensive to replace, don't least a lot of miles if not cared for or adjusted correctly,  plus the sprockets that the chain runs on are expensive & might need a qualified tec to replace on some motorcycles.

 

If you keep a chain motorcycle long enough, & put enough miles on it,  the cost to replace the chain & sprockets a couple of times   will usually cost more than a final drive failure repair.  

 

 

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Hosstage

Belt drive lasts much longer than chain, well over 100,000 miles when properly adjusted and occasionally cleaned, low maintenance, no mess from oil slinging around. Plenty stout, especially behind a stock or slightly modified motor.

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dirtrider
8 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Belt drive lasts much longer than chain, well over 100,000 miles when properly adjusted and occasionally cleaned, low maintenance, no mess from oil slinging around.

 

Morning  Hosstage

 

Belts do very good on pavement & clean roads but not so good on gravel or stone covered roads.  Just one little pebble between the belt & a sprocket can poke a hole through an expensive belt.  If the hole through the belt is in the center of the belt then they can still go on for quite a ways, but if the hole is near the edge the belt can rip & fail while riding (usually under full power).  

 

Belt for a BMW 800 bike is $527.00 plus cost of installation. 

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Hosstage

 

Good point about the dirt roads, I forgot that people actually ride on those!

$527 for a belt? How can that even be? Is it made with platinum and gold? 

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Whip

Chains have come a long way in the last ten years. (could be twenty years I am old)

 

The o rings and other materials have made them less maintenance intense. Spray some no fling oil em every 1000 miles and check the tension when you change the oil. Nothing like the good old days.

 

L

 

 

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RandyShields

I recall looking at the Iron Butt Rally stats from the early-mid 2000s and there were a more than expected number of DNFs among the BMW crowd due to failed final drives.  Not so much in the past 10-12 years.  I think if you do some research, you will find that the final drives of the more recent BMW vintages are much more reliable.

 

 

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dirtrider
54 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

 

Good point about the dirt roads, I forgot that people actually ride on those!

$527 for a belt? How can that even be? Is it made with platinum and gold? 

 

 

Morning  Hosstage

 

No  platinum & gold, but is (was anyhow) a BMW proprietary  belt so no competition to drive price down.

 

The labor to install the belt at a BMW dealer is also expensive (that assumes a BMW dealer in or near the state that your belt failed in). 

 

That belt breaks you are definitely not riding that motorcycle until you get it replaced. 

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Antimatter

As Whip said, chains have come a long way in the last 40 years.  With a modern o-ring or x-ring chain, you only really need to keep the chain clean and free of rust.  The lubrication is internal to the sealing rings, and the maintenance is really more about keeping the seals intact.  Automatic transmission fluid does that really well, and was the go-to for most OEM chain manufacturers until they started selling proprietary chain lubes.  Chain/belt/shaft are really just a 'pick your poison' decision - none is really higher or lower maintenance than the other, with each having distinct advantages and disadvantages to each other.  Chains require a bit more daily upkeep, but are easy to replace and to find a replacement if you're on the road.  Shafts require less day to day, but are often a bigger job to take apart and do maintenance on.  Belts lack the day to day stuff chains do, and don't need to be disassembled to service like a shaft drive, but you generally have to drop the swing arm to change a belt, which can involve a lot of stuff coming off a motorcycle to make that happen.  Belts are also limited in strength by their cross section, which can make them a bulky for higher horsepower applications - which is why they're generally found on lower HP machines. 

TLDR:  chains are not like they were in the 1970s.  Each system has advantages and disadvantages.  No one system is markedly better than any other.  Don't use the drive system as a basis for picking a motorcycle to ride.

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eddd
On 4/15/2020 at 4:47 AM, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Potatoes

 

A chain driven motorcycle can eliminate final drive failures but not necessarily rear wheel bearing failures, a chain driven motorcycle can eliminate drive shaft failures but not prevent transmission failures.

Rear wheel bearing failure on a chain driven bike is not only rare, it is easily diagnosed and replaced.  No special tool or procedures like you would need for single swing arm shaft drive bikes.

 

Chain driven motorcycles transmit slightly more engine power to the rear wheel  as the torque doesn't need to change direction in it's delivery path. 

Yes, KISS.

 

The downside to chains is that they are a big pain in the a$$ as they need to be adjusted & lubricated often, especially after riding in the rain,  (can be a pain to lubricate while on a road trip as you  need to carry the lubrication supplies with you), plus it is a messy affair at times.

The X ring chains (X ring chains are a step up from O ring chains) I run rarely need to be adjusted when I'm on an extended trip or even over their life span, but if they do need to be adjusted it is a simple task that takes 5-10 minutes.  Lubrication is also super simple since the main lube is already in the chain and kept in place by the X or O rings, and modern spray chain lubes are easy to apply and dry so there is no messy fling.

 

Modern high torque  "O" ring motorcycle chains  are expensive to replace, don't least a lot of miles if not cared for or adjusted correctly,  plus the sprockets that the chain runs on are expensive & might need a qualified tec to replace on some motorcycles.
I do not find the modern high quality chains to be expensive.  Since I know I will eventually need to replace the chain I order ahead online and have a replacement ready to go.  The same goes for sprockets.  They are not expensive, they are easily replaced, and they allow you to easily change the gearing on your bike.

 

If you keep a chain motorcycle long enough, & put enough miles on it,  the cost to replace the chain & sprockets a couple of times   will usually cost more than a final drive failure repair.  

 A couple of replacements, which most anyone can do, doesn't come close to the cost and hassle of dealing with a rear drive failure which unfortunately often occurs at the most inopportune time and location.  

 

 

 

 

 



 

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dirtrider

BMW 1150 final drive__

bearing        $165.68
seal             $46.09
shim if required $21.56  

total=           $233.33   (do it once, set it correctly,  then no more failures)


BMW 1000RR chain system

chain                  $192.45
master link        $9.61
rear sprocket    $126.52
front sprocket  $66.19

total=          $394.77    (probably  replace at least twice & maybe more in life of motorcycle)

 

This is OEM BMW parts so going aftermarket on either would be cheaper.
 

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szurszewski

My experience matches up to what D.R. quotes above. 
 

I’ve replaced/rebuilt/had rebuilt several final drives, and the total cost was never more than $500, and as low as a couple hundred in parts. 
 

I’ve replaced the chain and sprockets on just two modern(ish) bikes (f800gs and Ducati st2), and both of those were around $3-400 in parts. The Ducati had close to 40,000 miles and I was putting on the third chain and - I think - second set of sprockets (so first replacement) -

can’t recall mileage for the F800. 
 

I will say if you’re paying dealer prices and they will only replace, not rebuild, a final drive ... well, then chains are likely to be much cheaper.

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eddd

For my Triumph Tiger 800:

 

DID 525 VX chain -  $113 with master link

Front sprocket - $17

Rear sprocket - $31 

Total - $161

I notice that my other points were ignored, as was the fact that MANY BMW rider, including myself, have had "final drive" failures far from home with no warning that disaster was upon them.  Shaft drive bikes obviously have a drive shaft with universal joints at each end, another well documented weak point.  A chain on its way out is easy to see, and easy to fix for the average mechanically inclined owner...with basic tools.  No dial indicator needed to check preload.  No checking around  trying to find the correct size shim in the middle of the job.  Throw in the driveshaft at $1057 and hope your final drive case wasn't destroyed when things went south.  Added to this is that setting up the final drive is not something most owners feel they have the skill/time/and tools to completely the job.

It is definitely nice to have an enclosed, low maintenance drive on a touring bike, but the fact remains that single side arm shaft drive bikes can have issues, and these issues can have real economic and travel ruining consequences.  The forums contain many examples.  

The Yamaha FJR final drive with its two sided swing arm has a stellar reputation, but then it's not a BMW.  

 

Chain driven touring bikes aren't for everyone, and looking only in that direction you will definitely limit your choices, but there is no reason to be scared to own and ride a chain driven bike.  

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RPondaRoad
On 4/14/2020 at 9:23 PM, Potatoes said:

....when it was not in the shop for clutch, final drive failure etc. it was a money pit.  so, my question is can I avoid all that by buying a chain braveness bike? 

No.  Shaft drives fail, chains break.   Neither have happened to me, but it happens...just as your final drive failures happened to you.  But, while I ignore my R1200RT's final drive between service intervals,  more frequent chain final drive maintenance was part of riding on my chain driven bikes.  

 

Most manufacturers, even those making O and X ring chains still recommend frequent lubrication.  Normally, that's between 300 and 500 miles.  A long day ride.  While most riders refuse to be a chain slave and do that much maintenance because the O and X rings keep the roller lube inside, those rings still have to be lubed in order to keep them pliable enough to do their job.  Regardless of how you approach the interval of lubrication, there is always:

 

Rain.  A chain that has been spinning around all day in the wet has to be lubed, otherwise it rusts.  OK, so the rollers are still (supposed to be) encapsulated in grease, but do you want a chain that's full of rust?  So, you lube up your chain during a stop on your tour, but the next day it's still raining.  You now have:

 

The mess.  Now there's lube all over the back of your bike, and that stuff all over your sprockets that looks like weeping mascara?  That's your lube too.  But, those sprockets?  They get gunk and grunge buildup on them from road dirt mixed with chain lube even if you never encounter a rainstorm.  And both the front and rear sprockets need to be cleaned.  The front is a well known repository for grease clots.  If you don't do at least some of the chain cleaning and lubrication that's needed and if you fail to keep your sprockets tidy as well you get:

 

Replacement cost.  Some chain manufacturers claim that you can get 20,000 to 30,000 miles from a modern chain.  On my last bike, a 550 lb. mid-sized tourer I could only eek out 15,000 miles on top branded chains.  And, I was pretty much a chain slave.  Some people claim too, that you can replace a chain without replacing sprockets.  But, most reliable mechanics will tell you that that is risky business.  Dirtrider (above) shows you the cost of replacement, although my experience was that replacement needed to be done many more times during the motorcycle's lifespan.

 

So, chains take more frequent care than shaft drives do.  But, which is for you...you don't say what you do with your bike. If you're a competitive rider who worries about power to the rear wheel, well chains are probably still more efficient.  And, if you're a tinkerer, well think of how much fun you'll have lubing link by link with a dropper instead of spraying that entire chain from a can.  As for myself, I'm old and getting creakier by the day.  I hate messing with a chain.  But although my RT's shaft drive is has been reliable and low maintenance so far, I do sometimes wonder if a belt would be even easier to live with.  

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dirtrider
13 minutes ago, eddd said:

For my Triumph Tiger 800:

 

DID 525 VX chain -  $113 with master link

Front sprocket - $17

Rear sprocket - $31 

Total - $161

I notice that my other points were ignored, as was the fact that MANY BMW rider, including myself, have had "final drive" failures far from home with no warning that disaster was upon them.  Shaft drive bikes obviously have a drive shaft with universal joints at each end, another well documented weak point.  A chain on its way out is easy to see, and easy to fix for the average mechanically inclined owner...with basic tools.  No dial indicator needed to check preload.  No checking around  trying to find the correct size shim in the middle of the job.  Throw in the driveshaft at $1057 and hope your final drive case wasn't destroyed when things went south.  Added to this is that setting up the final drive is not something most owners feel they have the skill/time/and tools to completely the job.

It is definitely nice to have an enclosed, low maintenance drive on a touring bike, but the fact remains that single side arm shaft drive bikes can have issues, and these issues can have real economic and travel ruining consequences.  The forums contain many examples.  

The Yamaha FJR final drive with its two sided swing arm has a stellar reputation, but then it's not a BMW.  

 

Chain driven touring bikes aren't for everyone, and looking only in that direction you will definitely limit your choices, but there is no reason to be scared to own and ride a chain driven bike.  

 

 

Afternoon  eddd

 

Chains are not totally free of collateral damage same as drive shafts. I have a friend back a few years break a chain, or break a master link (not sure which) & the chain bunched up & punched a big hole in his engine case. Motorcycle was way up in the U.P. of Michigan so he had about an 800 mile round trip to recover it. 

 

Bike was basically a total due to engine repair cost. I managed to weld the thing up for him but it was darn near a full days job as I couldn't get the oil out of the alloy castings to keep it from migrating towards the welding heat.  

 

Back in the early 1100 days a lot of us long distance riders would carry a spare crown bearing & seal as about any shop could remove the side cover & install a new bearing & seal.  Might not be shimmed exactly correct but  close enough to finish the trip & get back home to set the preload correctly.  (spare bearing & seal takes up a lot less space than a chain does).

 

If a rider has some basic mechanical skills they can install a crown bearing & seal in the parking lot of an auto parts store (I have done it before) without removing the final drive from the motorcycle, only need the tools to remove the wheel &  side cover (plus brake rotor on the 1100), a small propane torch (available at most hardware stores), a hammer, & a gear puller (usually rent or borrow gear puller  from the auto part store).  Not something a person wants  to do but not impossible either. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Skywagon

Nothing to worry about if chain breaks...see 


Cracked-crankcase.jpg

Ive yet to find the perfect drive train on anything.  I've had 3rd members go out of truck, chains on bikes, belts on snowmobile, ujoints on cars, lower units on outboards and shafts on inboard/outboard, gear reduction unit on propeller....etc.  I haven't had an issue with my BMW bikes.  I bought my first one in 1979.  I might be just lucky.  As a couple of folks have said if you buy a bike based on the drive train being 100% reliable or no maintenance, you will soon be walking and cussing....chain, shaft, or belt.  By the way I think it's time for a new chain on my mountain bike.  I can tell because when my pants leg got caught in it, it didn't punch a hole in them like it usually does. :5223:  Don't even get me started on 4 wheel drive transmissions especially on Jeep.

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dduelin

If I wanted the lowest cost to maintain motorbike drive train it would probably the my Honda Elite 80 scooter. It's 34 years old and I've replaced the $35 CVT belt once in 10,000 miles. But that bike has never been more than 65 miles from home on it's own wheels. Hard to tour on it.

 

I just sold a chain driven NC700X and this is my experience with 70,000 miles of modern X ring chains on that bike. Wipe the chain clean with a WD40 soaked paper towel every 500 miles or so and follow that with a single toothbrush load of 50/50 mix ATF & 80w/90 gear oil applied on the inside run of the chain. Adjust the chain once after replacing it then ride it until a tire change requires readjustment or a chain replacement. If it sounds like a lot of twidding every 500 miles, it isn't. It would take me two minutes tops in the pleasure of my own garage. No chain fling, no crud buildup, the rear wheel stays as clean as a shaft drive bike. I had a little kit with a 1 oz bottle of lube and a tooth brush cut down to 4".  About the size of a pack of cigarettes including several nitril gloves to keep my hands clean. With 3000 miles of paper towels it all fit in a sandwich baggie. Away from home on 3 to 8 day trips I'd do the maintenance at 500 or 1000 miles, or not, if the weather was dry.  Chains last 15,000 miles and replace the front sprocket with a chain, the rear every other chain. 520 X ring chains with sprocket $90-$100 a pop. Sure $100 adds up but over time it's cheap.

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dirtrider
49 minutes ago, dduelin said:

If I wanted the lowest cost to maintain motorbike drive train it would probably the my Honda Elite 80 scooter. It's 34 years old and I've replaced the $35 CVT belt once in 10,000 miles. But that bike has never been more than 65 miles from home on it's own wheels. Hard to tour on it.

 

I just sold a chain driven NC700X and this is my experience with 70,000 miles of modern X ring chains on that bike. Wipe the chain clean with a WD40 soaked paper towel every 500 miles or so and follow that with a single toothbrush load of 50/50 mix ATF & 80w/90 gear oil applied on the inside run of the chain. Adjust the chain once after replacing it then ride it until a tire change requires readjustment or a chain replacement. If it sounds like a lot of twidding every 500 miles, it isn't. It would take me two minutes tops in the pleasure of my own garage. No chain fling, no crud buildup, the rear wheel stays as clean as a shaft drive bike. I had a little kit with a 1 oz bottle of lube and a tooth brush cut down to 4".  About the size of a pack of cigarettes including several nitril gloves to keep my hands clean. With 3000 miles of paper towels it all fit in a sandwich baggie. Away from home on 3 to 8 day trips I'd do the maintenance at 500 or 1000 miles, or not, if the weather was dry.  Chains last 15,000 miles and replace the front sprocket with a chain, the rear every other chain. 520 X ring chains with sprocket $90-$100 a pop. Sure $100 adds up but over time it's cheap.

 

Evening Dave

 

Smaller bikes without side bags are not too bad but larger touring bikes with side bags (especially with difficult to remove or non removable side bags are a pain to service the chain).

 

Bikes without a center stand are a real pain to service the chain.

 

I have owned them all over the years & will still take a final drive over chain if I have a choice. (exception being smaller off-road bikes)

 

I ride with  mixed groups, some with enclosed drives & some with chains. After a long days ride myself & the other enclosed drive riders are having a beer & relaxing while the chain riders are removing bags, servicing their chains, & getting dirty hands.

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eddd
1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

...

 

Bikes without a center stand are a real pain to service the chain...

 

I ride with  mixed groups, some with enclosed drives & some with chains. After a long days ride myself & the other enclosed drive riders are having a beer & relaxing while the chain riders are removing bags, servicing their chains, & getting dirty hands.

 

My Kawasaki didn't have a center stand, but the paddock stand was a quick and easy solution at home.  As for when I was on the road...here's a "tip" on how to make it easy to service the chain on bikes without center stands.  

I utilized the swingarm spool on the right side, but only after I have locked the front  brake to keep the bike from rolling during the next steps.

 

IMG_5864s.jpg

 

IMG_5868s.jpg

 

For this bike I made a simple wooden stick.

IMG_5866s.jpgnn

 

 

Slip the prop stick in place, tilt the bike onto the regular side stand and front wheel, push the stick in with your foot to hold the rear tire off the ground.  It only needs to just clear contact with the ground.

 

IMG_5865s.jpg

 

 

When making your stick/prop you'll need to get the length just right along with the angle of the "foot".

 

IMG_5869s.jpg

 

 

Commercial versions are available.

 

IMG_5867s.jpg

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Selden
On 4/15/2020 at 12:23 AM, Potatoes said:

My first bike was an 1150 rt. 2004. Loved that bike when it was not in the shop for clutch, final drive failure etc. it was a money pit. 
so, my question is can I avoid all that by buying a chain braveness bike? Obviously,by the question it’s obvious I know zilch about bikes except I love riding them. I’m oh so ignorant about them though.  So ty again for any input. I’ll never buy a bmw with a shaft drive again. Thanks all

 

The R1150RT was not a high-point of BMW design and quality control. I have a 1999 R1100RT, which has passed 130,000 miles without any failures other than a stuck starter solenoid. I replaced the clutch myself at 97,000 miles; it could have gone another 10,000, but I decided to be proactive.

 

I also have a 2014 F700GS, which has chain drive. There is simply no comparison with the chains of 50 years ago. I clean and lube the chain every 90 days or so, and adjust it perhaps once a year. It had 4,400 miles on it when I bought it in 2018, and is now approaching 12,000 miles. I also have a 2006 Yamaha XT225, which is ridden mostly on fire roads. It is approaching 11,000 miles, and has the original chain. Same maintenance regimen. Treated well and not abused, a modern chain should last  ~20,000 miles. When the chain wears out, replace both sprockets and the chain.

 

The worst thing you can do with a chain is adjust it too tight. The problem is that on almost all motorcycles, the swingarm pivot is behind the countershaft sprocket, so as the rear wheel moves through its range of travel, the distance between the center lines of the two sprockets changes. If you adjust chain slack while it's on the centerstand, with the rear suspension fully extended, the chain will be too tight when the countershaft sprocket, pivot, and rear sprocket are in a straight line. Too tight = excessive wear. The amount of free play needed varies from motorcycle to motorcycle.

 

ccs-3-0-25476200-1369625686.jpg

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Selden
1 hour ago, eddd said:

Commercial versions are available

 

An old adjustable aluminum crutch also works well.

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dduelin
4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening Dave

 

Smaller bikes without side bags are not too bad but larger touring bikes with side bags (especially with difficult to remove or non removable side bags are a pain to service the chain).

 

Bikes without a center stand are a real pain to service the chain.

 

I have owned them all over the years & will still take a final drive over chain if I have a choice. (exception being smaller off-road bikes)

 

I ride with  mixed groups, some with enclosed drives & some with chains. After a long days ride myself & the other enclosed drive riders are having a beer & relaxing while the chain riders are removing bags, servicing their chains, & getting dirty hands.

Good Evening Sir,

 

What I was attempting to illustrate is your experience and that of your friends was not that of mine, nothing more. I have two shaft drive bikes at present and several others now gone and they are my bikes of choice to tour on but the experiences in this thread regarding living with chains were not mine. Modern chains while not maintenance free are not demanding. I think many riders lube when not necessary and over do it. I agree with center stands and easily removed bags do make maintenance easier. The NCs had both.

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eddd
49 minutes ago, Selden said:

 

An old adjustable aluminum crutch also works well.

 

I've used the adjustable canes with one of these replacing the handle.

getimage.jpg

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dirtrider
12 hours ago, Selden said:

The worst thing you can do with a chain is adjust it too tight. The problem is that on almost all motorcycles, the swingarm pivot is behind the countershaft sprocket, so as the rear wheel moves through its range of travel, the distance between the center lines of the two sprockets changes. If you adjust chain slack while it's on the centerstand, with the rear suspension fully extended, the chain will be too tight when the countershaft sprocket, pivot, and rear sprocket are in a straight line. Too tight = excessive wear. The amount of free play needed varies from motorcycle to motorcycle.

 

 

 

 

Morning Selden

 

Very true, I do  see some too tight after a rider does an adjustment, especially if the rear wheel is hanging all the way down with wheel off the ground.

 

Same with a hot chain as a hot chain will usually show looser warm  than when cold. 

 

Also, don't forget, on used chains with some miles on them to turn the rear wheel & check the chain slack in a few different places to find the tightest place (especially on your 700 bike with the even-number-toothed rear sprocket). Then do your adjustment  in  that position. A worn chain/worn sprocket can have quite a slack difference between the tight & loose positions. 

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