electrical Won't Start without Neutral light indicator

[Air_Head_Ed]

Hello all,  I bought a 1994 R1100RS last year that has a finicky Neutral light issue. Shifting the bike into neutral is not the issue,

but if I shift the bike into neutral and the Neutral light indicator doesn't illuminate the bike will not restart after I turn the engine off.

I took the bike to a BMW specialist and he could not figure it out. If this were a problem that just required a little finessing to make

the light come on, I can deal with it but today I went out for a ride and could not get the Neutral light to come on so even though

I could find neutral I could not shut off the bike until I got home.

Does anyone know what is going on or have had the same issue?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Air_Head_Ed
typo

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Air_Head_Ed said:

Hello all,  I bought a 1994 R1100RS last year that has a finicky Neutral light issue. Shifting the bike into neutral is not the issue,

but if I shift the bike into neutral and the Neutral light indicator doesn't illuminate the bike will not restart after I turn the engine off.

I took the bike to a BMW specialist and he could not figure it out. If this were a problem that just required a little finessing to make

the light come on, I can deal with it but today I went out for a ride and could not get the Neutral light to come on so even though

I could find neutral I could not shut off the bike until I got home.

Does anyone know what is going on or have had the same issue?

 

 

Evening Air_Head_Ed

 

Sounds like a problem with the trans neutral switch (on rear of transmission but a bugger to get at). 

 

Might just be a worn out, or a bad neutral switch, or possibly your present switch might have gear oil in it from a leaking shift drum seal. 

 

About all you can do is remove the neutral switch (lot more difficult than it sounds) then find out what is wrong with it. 

 

If it won't start with the clutch lever pulled in (even without the neutral light on) then it also  sounds like you have a bad clutch lever switch. 

 

Probably be much easier to install a new clutch lever switch  (or repair the clutch switch wiring if the switch is OK) as that will allow the engine to be started even with the transmission in gear & the neutral light not on.

 

Added: While not recommended you could also cut the clutch switch wire pigtail then twist the chassis side wires together (solder & seal with heat shrink) as that will allow starting in gear with or without the neutral light on, but this can be dangerous as you can accidently start the engine with trans in gear & have the motorcycle jump forward or even take off without rider control.

[Air_Head_Ed]

Thank you! Very much appreciated.

 

I think this is the switch.

 

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/clswitch403.htm

[Michaelr11]

Ed, Dirtrider has spelled out the answer. You didn’t mention trying to start with the clutch lever pulled in, but if that also doesn’t work then you have a bad clutch safety switch too. 
 

The slow or lazy neutral switch is a common problem on these bikes. Here is my suggestion for the neutral switch. Exercise it, often. When you stop and put the bike in neutral if the neutral light doesn’t appear, work the shift lever to the edges of up and down without changing gear to first or second. If you get the light on, you can shut the motor. Try to always park it with the light on. It may take a few weeks and it won’t be perfect but the light should come on more easily as you keep working it. You might find that the light comes on easier if you shift to second and then slip it from second to neutral.

[Air_Head_Ed]

I actually was trying to do that during my entire ride today with no luck but I will try the 2nd gear technique.

Today was the first time I couldn't get the indicator light to come on. 

 

Thank you

[Jim Moore]

It should start with the clutch in, in gear or in neutral. If it doesn't you have a bad clutch switch too. The simplest fix is to cut the wires going to the clutch switch and wire them together. Your bike will think the clutch is in and allow you to start the bike. You can also jump hole 2 to hole 6 under the starter relay (in the fuse box under the seat) with a small piece of wire (key on). "Vrooom!"

 

Btw, if your BMW specialist didn't know about this issue, find a new one. This has been a known, common issue for 25 years.

[AviP]

20 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

Btw, if your BMW specialist didn't know about this issue, find a new one. This has been a known, common issue for 25 years.

+1. 

[Air_Head_Ed]

Any recommendations for a oil head mechanic in the NYC/Long Island area?

[Jim Moore]

What are you trying to do? We can talk you through it.

[CNred]

Had the same problem a couple of months ago with an R11100rt I was fixing to sell. Beautiful bike, low miles excellent condition, but had sat for a few years. It had the neutral light problem. I investigated and found that the switch at the transmission was the culprit. I figured I would just change the switch and everyone would be happy. Long story short changing the switch is a boat load of work, and not worth the time and money a new switch would cost. I figured out the bike will start if the nuetral light is lit... I also figured out that if you trace the wires from the transmission switch you can ground them and make the light turn on for thr purposes of starting the bike with out using the clutch.

I cut one of the transmission switch wires and installed a toggle switch to turn the nuetral light on and off allowing the bike to start when the switch was grounding the trans switch.

I know the bike will start when the clutch is pulled in weather the neutral light is on or not, the switch I installed is redundant for sure. My concern was, what happens when you are away from home, you need to start the  bike, the clutch switch has gone south and the nuetral light is not lit. It was a good feeling that is that particular sernario played out, I could flip a switch, light the nuetral light and start the bike.

The only issue is...You can manually illuminate the nuetral light when the transmission is in any gear, allowing the starter to engage even if the bike is in, say for instance 1st gear. If that were to happen unexpectedly, that bike will surprisingly lurch forward.

Bottom line - if you are going to use this method, BE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT GEAR THE BIKE IS IN BEFORE YOU HIT THE STARTER.

[The Rocketman]

On 4/18/2020 at 9:32 AM, Air_Head_Ed said:

Any recommendations for a oil head mechanic in the NYC/Long Island area?

 

My buddy Chris Capobianco in Ronkonkoma.

631-219-6773

BMW Master Mechanic for many years. Now independent working out of his garage. Knows all and can fix all at fantastic prices. He works full time as a electronics tech geek at the NYC major airports, and does this on the side now. You will not be disappointed. Call him and tell him Larry sent you.

[Air_Head_Ed]

Thank you CNred and The Rocketman!

[tvpierce]

Is it common for folks to start their bike (or car/truck for that matter) without disengaging the clutch?   If so, why would you do that?

 

I've had manual shift vehicles my entire life, and I don't think I've ever started one without my foot depressing the clutch pedal, or my hand holding-in the clutch lever.

 

Just curious.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, tvpierce said:

Is it common for folks to start their bike (or car/truck for that matter) without disengaging the clutch?   If so, why would you do that?

 

I've had manual shift vehicles my entire life, and I don't think I've ever started one without my foot depressing the clutch pedal, or my hand holding-in the clutch lever.

 

Just curious.

 

Morning Jeff 

 

Not real common for normal riding & engine starting while sitting on the motorcycle, but not unheard of either (that is the problem as MOST of the time a rider pulls the clutch lever in to start the engine, but what about that one time the rider is distracted & doesn't do it). Like the motorcycle stalls & falls over with traffic behind him honking their horns & yelling stupid things. Rider hurriedly picks the motorcycle up & unintentionally touches the starter button. Or is frustrated & confused so just pushes the starter button without pulling in the clutch lever.  Or a newish rider that doesn't have the ingrained muscle memory to ALWAYS pull the clutch lever in regardless of the distractions or situation?   

 

The problems can arise when the rider wants  to start the engine while standing on the ground next to the motorcycle, like for a quick warm up, or for service, or even unintentionally pushes the wrong button on the handlebar with the key turned on. 

 

There is valid reason that cars & light trucks have clutch interlock switch's & that motorcycles have clutch-lever interlock switches. Most people are careful, some are not careful, & others make an occasional mistake.

 

 

[szurszewski]

1 hour ago, tvpierce said:

Is it common for folks to start their bike (or car/truck for that matter) without disengaging the clutch?   If so, why would you do that?

 

I've had manual shift vehicles my entire life, and I don't think I've ever started one without my foot depressing the clutch pedal, or my hand holding-in the clutch lever.

 

Just curious.

 

I’ve certainly done it - not recently and not ever catastrophically that I recall, but it’s certainly happened. 

[Skywagon]

Reminds me of an old story.  My first car was a 1962 Corvair Spider Monza....I came out from school one day and it wouldn't start.  This was before neutral safety switches in standards.  As only a dumb teenager can do, I decided to put it in gear and use the starter to drive it.  I was about 2 miles from home and actually made it without burning up the starter or battery.  I would run it a bit, then back off.  I managed to get it all the way to 2nd gear.  As I recall my dad was not amused.

[RogerC60]

I have a similar story about my '71 Ford Pinto from my college days. (And yes, I am obviously still alive to tell the tale.) One day on the way to work I blew out the throwout bearing. Pressing the clutch pedal did nothing. Approaching a red light I'd slow down, pop the gearshift into neutral, coast/brake to a stop, and turn off the motor. Put the transmission into 1st gear and wait for the green light. Hit the starter, lurch forward, speed shift along until the next traffic light. Lather, rinse, repeat. I drove the rest of the way to work like this, then drove home afterwards (15 miles, mostly highway). Amazingly, this did not damage the starter or flywheel.

 

If I remember right, I did not have to press the clutch pedal to start the car 

 

[tvpierce]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Jeff 

 

Not real common for normal riding & engine starting while sitting on the motorcycle, but not unheard of either (that is the problem as MOST of the time a rider pulls the clutch lever in to start the engine, but what about that one time the rider is distracted & doesn't do it). Like the motorcycle stalls & falls over with traffic behind him honking their horns & yelling stupid things. Rider hurriedly picks the motorcycle up & unintentionally touches the starter button. Or is frustrated & confused so just pushes the starter button without pulling in the clutch lever.  Or a newish rider that doesn't have the ingrained muscle memory to ALWAYS pull the clutch lever in regardless of the distractions or situation?   

 

The problems can arise when the rider wants  to start the engine while standing on the ground next to the motorcycle, like for a quick warm up, or for service, or even unintentionally pushes the wrong button on the handlebar with the key turned on. 

 

There is valid reason that cars & light trucks have clutch interlock switch's & that motorcycles have clutch-lever interlock switches. Most people are careful, some are not careful, & others make an occasional mistake.

 

 

Hi DR.

 

I totally get the need for the clutch interlock for exactly the reasons you mention.  What I don't understand is the desire to have the clutch interlock bypassed when the bike is in neutral.

I think I'm experiencing some sort of deja vu -- have we had this conversation a while back? 

My bike has had the lazy neutral light since I've owned it.  I had no idea that was affecting the bike's ability to start in neutral with the clutch out -- because it never occurred to me to try to start an engine with the clutch engaged.

 

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, tvpierce said:

Hi DR.

 

I totally get the need for the clutch interlock for exactly the reasons you mention.  What I don't understand is the desire to have the clutch interlock bypassed when the bike is in neutral.

I think I'm experiencing some sort of deja vu -- have we had this conversation a while back? 

My bike has had the lazy neutral light since I've owned it.  I had no idea that was affecting the bike's ability to start in neutral with the clutch out -- because it never occurred to me to try to start an engine with the clutch engaged.

 

 

Afternoon Jeff

 

Main reason for the clutch switch by-pass is that a lot of the old BMW's just won't start when in neutral UNLESS the neutral light is lit. Some with lazy neutral light switches just won't illuminate the neutral  light without a lot fiddling with the shifter.

 

Usually not a big deal when at home but is a real pain if the rider stalls the motorcycle at a red light or in traffic. If the clutch switch is bad, or inoperative,  & the rider can't get the neutral light to come on then it just won't start. 

 

Or, even with JUST a bad neutral safety switch if a rider stalls the motorcycle they have to find neutral before it will re-start. Again not a big deal at home but can be an issue when in traffic, or at a traffic light, or if the rider stalls the motorcycle on steep hill. 

 

Proper way is to repair or replace the clutch switch but that isn't always done for lack of know-how, or lack of funds, or lack of time, or????

 

 

 

 

[tvpierce]

53 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Jeff

 

Main reason for the clutch switch by-pass is that a lot of the old BMW's just won't start when in neutral UNLESS the neutral light is lit. Some with lazy neutral light switches just won't illuminate the neutral  light without a lot fiddling with the shifter.

 

Usually not a big deal when at home but is a real pain if the rider stalls the motorcycle at a red light or in traffic. If the clutch switch is bad, or inoperative,  & the rider can't get the neutral light to come on then it just won't start. 

 

Or, even with JUST a bad neutral safety switch if a rider stalls the motorcycle they have to find neutral before it will re-start. Again not a big deal at home but can be an issue when in traffic, or at a traffic light, or if the rider stalls the motorcycle on steep hill. 

 

Proper way is to repair or replace the clutch switch but that isn't always done for lack of know-how, or lack of funds, or lack of time, or????

 

 

 

 

Hi again DR.

 

As always, thanks for your thoughtful response.  I guess it's a belt and suspenders kind of redundancy.  

 

The point I was getting at is that it's a universally accepted best practice to disengage the clutch whenever starting a vehicle with a standard transmission.  Clearly the OP is not doing this since he stated he couldn't turn off his bike on his last ride because he was afraid it wouldn't restart because because of the lazy neutral switch.  It would be a non-issue if he simply pulled in his clutch lever at every start-up, like he should be doing.

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, tvpierce said:

Hi again DR.

 

As always, thanks for your thoughtful response.  I guess it's a belt and suspenders kind of redundancy.  

 

The point I was getting at is that it's a universally accepted best practice to disengage the clutch whenever starting a vehicle with a standard transmission.  Clearly the OP is not doing this since he stated he couldn't turn off his bike on his last ride because he was afraid it wouldn't restart because because of the lazy neutral switch.  It would be a non-issue if he simply pulled in his clutch lever at every start-up, like he should be doing.

 

Afternoon  Jeff

 

That's assuming it still has a working clutch lever switch.

 

My guess is the clutch lever switch is also bad so pulling the lever in won't help.  It was mentioned in the first few posts in this thread (on 4/12) --"If it won't start with the clutch lever pulled in (even without the neutral light on) then it also  sounds like you have a bad clutch lever switch". So I would have to assume that he has tried pulling the clutch lever in already. 

[AviP]

9 hours ago, tvpierce said:

Is it common for folks to start their bike (or car/truck for that matter) without disengaging the clutch?   If so, why would you do that?

 

I've had manual shift vehicles my entire life, and I don't think I've ever started one without my foot depressing the clutch pedal, or my hand holding-in the clutch lever.

I've never started any of my manual vehicles without disengaging the clutch. It's just a habit. 

[tvpierce]

17 hours ago, dirtrider said:

(clip) So I would have to assume that he has tried pulling the clutch lever in already. 

 

Since he didn't say so, I assumed the opposite.  

[Air_Head_Ed]

On 4/12/2020 at 6:02 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Evening Air_Head_Ed

 

Sounds like a problem with the trans neutral switch (on rear of transmission but a bugger to get at). 

 

Might just be a worn out, or a bad neutral switch, or possibly your present switch might have gear oil in it from a leaking shift drum seal. 

 

About all you can do is remove the neutral switch (lot more difficult than it sounds) then find out what is wrong with it. 

 

If it won't start with the clutch lever pulled in (even without the neutral light on) then it also  sounds like you have a bad clutch lever switch. 

 

Probably be much easier to install a new clutch lever switch  (or repair the clutch switch wiring if the switch is OK) as that will allow the engine to be started even with the transmission in gear & the neutral light not on.

 

Added: While not recommended you could also cut the clutch switch wire pigtail then twist the chassis side wires together (solder & seal with heat shrink) as that will allow starting in gear with or without the neutral light on, but this can be dangerous as you can accidently start the engine with trans in gear & have the motorcycle jump forward or even take off without rider control.

Thank you so much for your troubleshooting wisdom. Turns out it is a faulty clutch safety switch. I did as you suggested "while not recommended" and cut the clutch switch. Bike starts again!

[Warren Dean]

10 minutes ago, Air_Head_Ed said:

Thank you so much for your troubleshooting wisdom. Turns out it is a faulty clutch safety switch. I did as you suggested "while not recommended" and cut the clutch switch. Bike starts again!

 

Like so many have pointed out, pulling in the clutch to start is the way most of us have always done it. I did mine a while back and never missed it. 

 

I listen to my "inner voice" and not the random opinions of others.

[Hosstage]

Obviously none of you has had a slightly older Harley, I'm not sure when they started putting safety switches on them, maybe 10 years ago. Up until then, it was on you to make sure it was in neutral, or the clutch was pulled in, so it has always been sop to pull the clutch, or double check to make sure it was in neutral before hitting the start button. More than one Harley owner has crushed a front fender into the garage wall, or had it jump forward when everyone was looking (not me, of course!) My buddy had his actually start while he was standing next to it, and he had to do a John Wayne jumping onto a running horse, very impressive! Not his plan, but a great recovery!

I would have no problem bypassing the neutral safety switch to get it running. Good job getting yours up and going. 

[Hosstage]

Also, when off-roading in the old Jeeps and stalling while climbing a steep hill, it was common practice to leave the clutch engaged and just hit the starter to go, rather than trying to operate the clutch from a dead stop in a tricky situation.

[Boaf 32]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:15 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Hi Dirtrider, Hosstage,

I am looking for the part number for the clutch switch.  I bought my 2000 R1100RT new, and never knew that the clutch could start the bike without the Neutral light being lit.  My Neutral light is lazy and it does not always come on.  And the Clutch switch never ever worked (again, I did not know it should).  And yes, it does suck stalling the bike in traffic!!!

 

Any part number is appreciated.

 

Boaf

On 4/21/2020 at 2:15 PM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  Jeff

 

That's assuming it still has a working clutch lever switch.

 

My guess is the clutch lever switch is also bad so pulling the lever in won't help.  It was mentioned in the first few posts in this thread (on 4/12) --"If it won't start with the clutch lever pulled in (even without the neutral light on) then it also  sounds like you have a bad clutch lever switch". So I would have to assume that he has tried pulling the clutch lever in already. 

 

[Jim Moore]

8 minutes ago, Boaf 32 said:

 

Hi Dirtrider, Hosstage,

I am looking for the part number for the clutch switch.  I bought my 2000 R1100RT new, and never knew that the clutch could start the bike without the Neutral light being lit.  My Neutral light is lazy and it does not always come on.  And the Clutch switch never ever worked (again, I did not know it should).  And yes, it does suck stalling the bike in traffic!!!

 

Any part number is appreciated.

 

Boaf

 

This looks like it, but for $85 I'd just cut the wires and wire them together.

 

61 31 1 459 569

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Boaf 32 said:

 

Hi Dirtrider, Hosstage,

I am looking for the part number for the clutch switch.  I bought my 2000 R1100RT new, and never knew that the clutch could start the bike without the Neutral light being lit.  My Neutral light is lazy and it does not always come on.  And the Clutch switch never ever worked (again, I did not know it should).  And yes, it does suck stalling the bike in traffic!!!

 

Any part number is appreciated.

 

Boaf

 

Morning Boaf

 

Your clutch switch is the same as the front brake light switch used on some BMW's.

 

P/N--   61311459569   SWITCH 

 

You can cut the wire pigtail off of the old one then get a thin walled socket on it to remove.

 

You can then install the new one using a very thin nosed needle nosed pliers on the switch hex. 

 

Kind of a pain to get to the clutch switch connector so some just cut the pig tail on the original in an accessible area, then cut the new switches' pig tail in the same place then splice them together.  

[Boaf 32]

Slice and dice, looking to keep clean but the fact is, the bike is 20 years old (and I'm older too).  Thanks Dirt Rider, Jim Moore!

 

Boaf

[Selden]

On 4/21/2020 at 11:36 AM, Skywagon said:

Reminds me of an old story.  My first car was a 1962 Corvair Spider Monza....I came out from school one day and it wouldn't start.  This was before neutral safety switches in standards.  As only a dumb teenager can do, I decided to put it in gear and use the starter to drive it.  I was about 2 miles from home and actually made it without burning up the starter or battery.  I would run it a bit, then back off.  I managed to get it all the way to 2nd gear.  As I recall my dad was not amused.

 

Out of curiosity, what turned out to be the problem?

[Skywagon]

one of my close friends thought it was clever when he stole the coil wire....  I can't remember that ending too well now. I don't remember if it had 1 or 2 coils.  That was somewhere around 1970.  Later bought a 64 fairlane with 289.  He had the same 64 fairlane.  Turns out his key would fit my car but mine would not fit his.  I would come out in the morning to go to school and my car was missing.  He would hide it a few blocks away at night.  All in good fun as I pranked him many times too.  He is still my best friend today. We've know each other since we were 2.

[Dave334478]

Thanks again guys.

 

I was having this same issue and found all the info I needed to take care of it in this thread. The neutral light comes on fine when the bike is running but it has been taking longer and longer to light up when the bike isn't running and was parked in gear.  (Lazy neutral switch huh? BassAckwards german engineering if ya ask me ;)

 

I had always thought it was odd that my bike wouldn't start in gear when I pulled the clutch in. I wasn't suprised at all to see BMW wants $100 for a clutch switch.

 

PS I found the switch for $29.99 at https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/blswitch569.htm