Rear Wheel Mess 2009 R1200RT

[Bigfish]

I'll be brief but seeking advise- Second time in 6,800 miles this has happened????

 

11/15/2018 Death Valley Ride - Riding conditions were spirited (2 up) and extreme elevation gains and drops - Next morning pre ride noticed oil mess on rear tire so we abandoned trip and limped home. Bike Milage 22,103

 

3/29/2020 Southern California Coastal Ride of 350 miles - Minimal elevation gains moderate to slow speed riding (2up) - Week prior to rear tire becoming a mess again.

 

4/4/2020 Southern California Mountain 4500' to Desert Sea Level - (2 up) extreme elevation gains and drops. Bike Mileage 28,933

 

Is this just oil blow-out from extreme pressure???? I know a small bit of oil mixed with the dusty riding conditions can create a bad looking mess quickly.

 

I plan to call BMW service to see if this first repair is under warranty. If not, I really need to fix this myself if possible. Spending $600 every 6000 miles is not going to cut it.

 

Looking forward to your guyzes input.

 

REGARDS,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Bigfish said:

I'll be brief but seeking advise- Second time in 6,800 miles this has happened????

 

11/15/2018 Death Valley Ride - Riding conditions were spirited (2 up) and extreme elevation gains and drops - Next morning pre ride noticed oil mess on rear tire so we abandoned trip and limped home. Bike Milage 22,103

 

3/29/2020 Southern California Coastal Ride of 350 miles - Minimal elevation gains moderate to slow speed riding (2up) - Week prior to rear tire becoming a mess again.

 

4/4/2020 Southern California Mountain 4500' to Desert Sea Level - (2 up) extreme elevation gains and drops. Bike Mileage 28,933

 

Is this just oil blow-out from extreme pressure???? I know a small bit of oil mixed with the dusty riding conditions can create a bad looking mess quickly.

 

I plan to call BMW service to see if this first repair is under warranty. If not, I really need to fix this myself if possible. Spending $600 every 6000 miles is not going to cut it.

 

Looking forward to your guyzes input.

 

REGARDS,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

Afternoon Dennis

 

You definitely have a seal leak on the crown bearing side of the final drive.  

 

I can't tell from the picture if the leak is grease or gear oil. (neither should be leaking at that location no matter if a pressure or altitude change)

 

That side uses a  pre-greased bearing   so there should not be any gear oil at that location. The crown bearing on the BMW 1200 hexhead runs in it's own SEALED oil free chamber. 

 

Did you have the steel rear wheel flange re-call done? If so the dealer might have overheated the spool & bearing when installing the new steel wheel flange. 

 

You will need proper heat & a good flange puller to do that bearing & seal install  job yourself. 

 

See if your rear wheel has more the 1mm of sideways movement at the rim when the rear drive is cold? If more then 1mm of movement then your bearing is definitely bad.

[Bigfish]

Thanks DR.

I'd definitely say it is GREASE.

 

I am assuming the re-call was previously done. Would think the dealership would run the serial # and inform me if it had not before they serviced the bike.

Update- Just found receipt from previous owner... Yes Recall No. 15V-141 Rear Wheel Flange was performed on 7-21-2015

 

I just checked the rear tire for any slop and the good news is that it is rock solid. No movement in the 3-9 o'clock and the 12-6 o'clock.

 

Guess my best bet since I do not have any specialty tools is to take it to dealer on Tuesday and see what their position is on fixing this.

 

For my own knowledge, could you please explain why the re-call? Did they put in a softer material that does not take heat? A bit confused on that comment.

 

 What are the odds the dealership would take blame that they overheated when installing?

 

Thanks!

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Bigfish said:

Thanks DR.

I'd definitely say it is GREASE.

 

I am assuming the re-call was previously done. Would think the dealership would run the serial # and inform me if it had not before they serviced the bike.

 

I just checked the rear tire for any slop and the good news is that it is rock solid. No movement in the 3-9 o'clock and the 12-6 o'clock.

 

Guess my best bet since I do not have any specialty tools is to take it to dealer on Tuesday and see what their position is on fixing this.

 

For my own knowledge, could you please explain why the re-call? Did they put in a softer material that does not take heat? A bit confused on that comment.

 

 What are the odds the dealership would take blame that they overheated when installing?

 

Thanks!

 

Afternoon Dennis

 

The rear wheel flange recall was done to replace the alloy rear wheel flange with a more durable steel flange as the original soft alloy flanges were cracking at the wheel & brake rotor bolt holes. Sometimes the entire end of the flange ear was breaking off. 

[Bigfish]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Dennis

 

The rear wheel flange recall was done to replace the alloy rear wheel flange with a more durable steel flange as the original soft alloy flanges were cracking at the wheel & brake rotor bolt holes. Sometimes the entire end of the flange ear was breaking off. 

Update- Just found receipt from previous owner... Yes Recall No. 15V-141 Rear Wheel Flange was performed on 7-21-2015

[TassieRT1200]

I had the same mess on my 09 RT  and I traced it to me pinching the speed sensor o ring, which caused a leak.

I replaced the o ring and was careful this time - no leaks or mess this time.

 

Worth a look in my opinion😊

 

Cheers

Gary

[Bigfish]

I'll give it a look Gary. Thanks for the input. Wondering if your mess happened right after a service you did or did it take time before you noticed?

Reason for asking this is I've put 6500 miles on the bike since BMW replaced all the bearings and seals. Or maybe an O'ring can just go bad?

[TassieRT1200]

Hey dennis

I did a final drive service dropping the drive down so i could lube the splines on the shaft.

 

I pinched it when i re assembled everything.

 

No leaks at all prior to my stuff up, it started leaking right away when i test rode the bike after the service. But it is an easy fix if its the o ring. Maybe try it before tearing your rear drive apart

[dirtrider]

Morning Bigfish, TassieRT1200

 

Bigfish said above -- I'd definitely say it is GREASE.

 

If it's GREASE then it isn't the speed sensor "O" ring.

[Bigfish]

I found this on Youtube and looks pretty straight forward as long as I can get the correct size metal plate/disc to put in center of drive before pulling off.

Any other suggestions and comments on tools to use? I did not notice this guy packing more grease into the bearing? Should he have done that and if so... any special kind and is it ok to mix greases??

 

https://youtu.be/U9rF-fbqdiI

Seal Replacement Video

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Bigfish said:

I found this on Youtube and looks pretty straight forward as long as I can get the correct size metal plate/disc to put in center of drive before pulling off.

Any other suggestions and comments on tools to use? I did not notice this guy packing more grease into the bearing? Should he have done that and if so... any special kind and is it ok to mix greases??

 

https://youtu.be/U9rF-fbqdiI

Seal Replacement Video

 

 

Morning Bigfish

 

What is the date on your bearing replacement receipt? You should have a 24 month warranty on those parts. 

 

Limited Warranty — Original BMW Motorcycle Parts 
 
Sold On or After April 1, 2003 BMW of North America warrants Original BMW Parts, and Original Remanufactured BMW Parts, imported by BMW of North America and installed by an authorized BMW motorcycle dealer, purchased over the counter or by mail order from an authorized BMW motorcycle dealer, against defects in materials and workmanship for a period of 24 months without mileage limitations, commencing with the date of purchase. 
 

[Bigfish]

DR-

Thanks so much for relaying this warranty info. I just assumed it was over the warranty time. I will find out if it covers the labor too? That is the more expensive side of the repair.

[Bigfish]

The date of repair was 11/15/2018.

 

So looks like I am within the 24 months. 

[dirtrider]

8 minutes ago, Bigfish said:

The date of repair was 11/15/2018.

 

So looks like I am within the 24 months. 

 

Morning Bigfish

 

If the dealer gives you any problems have them (first) read the BMW parts warranty  to you.

 

If still a problem then have them get BMW customer service involved (they probably don't want to deal with that).

 

If for some reason you end up having to do the job yourself post back  & we will give you some guidance & things to watch for in replacing that bearing at home. 

[Bigfish]

GREAT ADVISE!!

I will keep you posted.

Gong to try and take bike in this afternoon.

 

 

[Bigfish]

Update:

Took bike to dealership and upon initial inspection, got told it had to be oil because there is no Grease involved with the bearings and seals of that particular final drive. ( So that confused me even more )

Service guy's initial reaction was a failed Speed Sensor O'ring. ( which TassieRT1200 pointed out above )

Luckily that O'ring was part of the initial repair and everything was covered under warranty like DR figured.

I no more opened my door at home when I got the call that the bike was ready. Maybe 20 minutes went by. Tech put in a new Speed Sensor O'ring.

Tech also pointed out that there was brake grease on the back of my brake pads. ( I confirmed that yes, I had put a bit of brake grease on the back side of pads where the caliper pistons make contact )

Tech said that the mess on wheel could have quite possibly been caused by the brake pads heating up and liquifying the grease and then flinging it onto the rim. ( makes sense because I was on some tight twisty roads getting after it a bit followed by long straights where we opened the throttle a bit. Also followed by windy dust blowing desert conditions )

 

I am going to remove the pads and rid all the grease.

 

And I have a new O'ring speed sensor to boot.

 

Hope this post helps somebody in the future. BTW, I thought that the mess on rim was pretty bad and the tech said it was hardly anything and if it was more serious the entire rim would have been covered.

 

Thanks for all the help here. Very much appreciated.

 

[TassieRT1200]

Glad to hear the issue was resolved mate 😊

The mess that was caused by the leaking o ring was everywhere.

 

On lockdown here in australia i had heaps of time to clean it!

 

Cheers

Gary

[longjohn]

Now head on up Mt Palomar and down to Anza Borrego and let us know what you find.

[Hati]

7 hours ago, Bigfish said:

I am going to remove the pads and rid all the grease.

 

 

Don't do that. Unless you used too much, it's no way to be from the back of the pads. I routinely grease the back of the pads on all my bikes and am yet to have ANY grease flung onto the rims. All you need is a very thin layer of the right grease (brake specific) to stop corrosion. I use satchels of the stuff made by Bendix for this very purpose. I also put a bit on the pins the pads slide on and there is no contamination from there either on the rims or on the pads.

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Bigfish said:

Update:

Took bike to dealership and upon initial inspection, got told it had to be oil because there is no Grease involved with the bearings and seals of that particular final drive. ( So that confused me even more )

Service guy's initial reaction was a failed Speed Sensor O'ring. ( which TassieRT1200 pointed out above )

Luckily that O'ring was part of the initial repair and everything was covered under warranty like DR figured.

I no more opened my door at home when I got the call that the bike was ready. Maybe 20 minutes went by. Tech put in a new Speed Sensor O'ring.

Tech also pointed out that there was brake grease on the back of my brake pads. ( I confirmed that yes, I had put a bit of brake grease on the back side of pads where the caliper pistons make contact )

Tech said that the mess on wheel could have quite possibly been caused by the brake pads heating up and liquifying the grease and then flinging it onto the rim. ( makes sense because I was on some tight twisty roads getting after it a bit followed by long straights where we opened the throttle a bit. Also followed by windy dust blowing desert conditions )

 

I am going to remove the pads and rid all the grease.

 

And I have a new O'ring speed sensor to boot.

 

Hope this post helps somebody in the future. BTW, I thought that the mess on rim was pretty bad and the tech said it was hardly anything and if it was more serious the entire rim would have been covered.

 

Thanks for all the help here. Very much appreciated.

 

 

Morning Bigfish

 

I hope the problem was just that "O" ring but I sure have my doubts that it was just that "O" ring (time will tell on this).

 

It probably wasn't grease on the brake pads as that doesn't FLING, that sounds  like the tec was trying to pass the buck so he didn't have to take it apart. 

 

Go ride that bike hard again to see if the problem comes back. You want to address this before your 2 year warranty runs out if possible  (that is what that tec is hoping for). 

 

Does your current repair order/receipt  fully state the problem was a leak & that it looked like grease?  If your (same) leak re-occurs after your 2 year warranty then you will have a difficult time getting it warranted if you don't have written proof that you first complained about it BEFORE the warranty period  expired.

Dealer will probably tell you that the  last leak was the "O" ring & your present grease leak is a failed  seal or bearing but unfortunately it is now out of warranty. 

 

Make sure that you document everything (including your pictures) & a valid date of taking that motorcycle in for repair.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Bigfish said:

 

Took bike to dealership and upon initial inspection, got told it had to be oil because there is no Grease involved with the bearings and seals of that particular final drive. ( So that confused me even more )

 

 

 

Morning Bigfish

 

Next time you talk to that tec (probably when you take the bike back "again" for that grease leak) just ask him if no grease is involved with that bearing  then how does that bearing get lubricated seeing as the there  is an oil seal between that bearing & the gear oil in the final drive.

 

The 2010 up 1200RT does use an open crown bearing that doesn't use any grease as it is open to the final drive gear oil so the bearing isn't sealed but instead is lubricated with internal gear oil.

 

Check your messages as I sent you a picture of the early (2005-2009) sealed (pre-greased) bearing & the later 2010 up gear oil lubricated bearing. 

 

 

[Bigfish]

6 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Bigfish

 

Next time you talk to that tec (probably when you take the bike back "again" for that grease leak) just ask him if no grease is involved with that bearing  then how does that bearing get lubricated seeing as the there  is an oil seal between that bearing & the gear oil in the final drive.

 

The 2010 up 1200RT does use an open crown bearing that doesn't use any grease as it is open to the final drive gear oil so the bearing isn't sealed but instead is lubricated with internal gear oil.

 

Check your messages as I sent you a picture of the early (2005-2009) sealed (pre-greased) bearing & the later 2010 up gear oil lubricated bearing. 

 

 

DR, could it be that when Tech did the previous rebuild... he used the Oil Based Bearing? Just so happened that the original Tech that did the repair was same guy who helped me yesterday. He's been a mechanic there for a long time.

I really appreciate you taking the time to point this out in detail. I am going to go ride that bike hard this weekend and find out.

 

I had the Rear tire off last night and degreased everything very very well. Only thing I added specific brake grease was on the pin that holds the pads in. And just a thin coating. I will take close up pics before the ride and after the ride.

Had an O'Shit moment when finishing up my clean-up when I sprayed Brake Cleaner all around the caliper and pads and some spray got on the Painted surface of FD. It looked like I had ruined the painted finish... but it slowly evaporated and looked normal again.

 

[dirtrider]

29 minutes ago, Bigfish said:

DR, could it be that when Tech did the previous rebuild... he used the Oil Based Bearing? Just so happened that the original Tech that did the repair was same guy who helped me yesterday. He's been a mechanic there for a long time.

 

 

 

Afternoon Bigfish

 

I suppose anything is possible (plus, I'm not even sure doing that is possible).

 

In any case, my current parts books STILL shows the sealed bearing & inner seal used for the hexhead bikes. You would surly think that if the sealed bearing  & inner seal wasn't the correct parts then the parts book would show the supersede of the inner seal deletion & using the non-sealed bearing. 

[LBump]

8 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Bigfish

 

I suppose anything is possible (plus, I'm not even sure doing that is possible).

 

In any case, my current parts books STILL shows the sealed bearing & inner seal used for the hexhead bikes. You would surly think that if the sealed bearing  & inner seal wasn't the correct parts then the parts book would show the supersede of the inner seal deletion & using the non-sealed bearing. 

 

 

[Bigfish]

Final Update Guys. As usual... DR was correct that I'd be taking the bike back to BMW service.

I completely cleaned all oil and grease from the rear caliper, rotor and rim then went on a 140 mile freeway ride and had issues again.

Took bike back to BMW on Tuesday afternoon and Tech agreed it had to be redone. All new bearings and seals and fresh oil back in FD. Had repaired bike back in my Garage on Wednesday afternoon. No charge for parts or Labor.

So other than the inconvenience of taking it in twice... all is good for the moment. Will be keeping a very watchful eye out on this FD. I also thought it was weird how they didn't give me another receipt for this repair. They just said "your good to go".

I plan to call them tomorrow and have them send me a receipt for the work done as I would expect the warranty to be reset with these new parts being placed into the Final Drive. Including some pics of the rear wheel after the first go around.

 

 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Bigfish said:

I plan to call them tomorrow and have them send me a receipt for the work done as I would expect the warranty to be reset with these new parts being placed into the Final Drive. Including some pics of the rear wheel after the first go around.

 

 

 

 

 

Morning  Bigfish

 

Definitely talk to them but that is a very gray area. The 2 year warranty is usually on customer pay parts. When BMW pays then that usually (but not always) just runs to the expiration of the original parts warranty period. 

 

There are definitely exceptions & is somewhat dealer dependent. (no matter what, your dealer would probably repair it for free again if  it fails again in next 6 months), a year & a half from now maybe not so much.