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Andre1150

2004 1150RT Clutch not disengaging

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Andre1150

Out for a ride and I started hearing some loud squeaking sounds down by the transmission. I pulled the clutch lever and could not disengage the clutch,  came home, got on here and starting checking about possible causes. With the master cylinder cover off, when I slowly pull the lever in, I get a small puff (liquid) of silvery metallic looking fluid. The more I squeeze slowly, the more the cylinder fluid gets a silvery wash in it. After pulling the starter, I looked at the clutch plate and it feels like there's just no clutch anymore -- the disk looks like it's only a few mm wide, and pulling the lever moves the disc ever so small like a hairline's distance. I just replaced the clutch last year, and I'm a bit hard on the clutch, but not THAT hard. Maybe the slave is sticking??  I broke the bike down to pull the slave cylinder (hey, we're in quarantine, so can't go anywhere, so I'd rather be wrenching and cleaning my bike) and when I pull it, there's just grease/moly paste, no fluid all around the slave, the weep hole is dry. Once the slave is out of the bike, but still hooked up to the hydraulics, when I squeeze the lever the slave end moves about 1-2mm, and then releasing the master cylinder lever and the slave moves back into the housing about the same about 1-2mm which is consistent with what I see with the slave in the bike (looking at the clutch plate) It almost looks like a very very tiny amount of movement.  The action up in the master cylinder when I move the lever slowly, seems to indicate that the piston hole is clear, but I'm worried about the silvery particles swirling around (almost like the moly grease from down below is up in the lines. And two, when I look at the clutch disc, it looks like I've burned it down to bare metal, but that doesn't seem right either. So, I do think the slave is shot (stuck), and the particles in the master?

Clutch_Disc_Area.jpg

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dirtrider
32 minutes ago, Andre1150 said:

Out for a ride and I started hearing some loud squeaking sounds down by the transmission. I pulled the clutch lever and could not disengage the clutch,  came home, got on here and starting checking about possible causes. With the master cylinder cover off, when I slowly pull the lever in, I get a small puff (liquid) of silvery metallic looking fluid. The more I squeeze slowly, the more the cylinder fluid gets a silvery wash in it. After pulling the starter, I looked at the clutch plate and it feels like there's just no clutch anymore -- the disk looks like it's only a few mm wide, and pulling the lever moves the disc ever so small like a hairline's distance. I just replaced the clutch last year, and I'm a bit hard on the clutch, but not THAT hard. Maybe the slave is sticking??  I broke the bike down to pull the slave cylinder (hey, we're in quarantine, so can't go anywhere, so I'd rather be wrenching and cleaning my bike) and when I pull it, there's just grease/moly paste, no fluid all around the slave, the weep hole is dry. Once the slave is out of the bike, but still hooked up to the hydraulics, when I squeeze the lever the slave end moves about 1-2mm, and then releasing the master cylinder lever and the slave moves back into the housing about the same about 1-2mm which is consistent with what I see with the slave in the bike (looking at the clutch plate) It almost looks like a very very tiny amount of movement.  The action up in the master cylinder when I move the lever slowly, seems to indicate that the piston hole is clear, but I'm worried about the silvery particles swirling around (almost like the moly grease from down below is up in the lines. And two, when I look at the clutch disc, it looks like I've burned it down to bare metal, but that doesn't seem right either. So, I do think the slave is shot (stuck), and the particles in the master?

 

 

Evening  Andre1150

 

Sounds a lot like the throw-out bearing in your slave cylinder is coming apart & failing. 

 

That swirling sliver in the master cylinder "could be" from the slave cylinder piston, if the bearing in the slave cylinder  fails then the  spinning push rod can actually spin the slave cylinder piston in the slave cylinder bore, then the alloy particles can work their way  back up the clutch line into the master cylinder. 

 

That picture is kind of washed out looking so I can't tell for sure what your clutch disk looks like, can you get us better picture  with more contrast)   so we can get a better look at the clutch plate outer edge???

 

If you failed the clutch  (welded it to the plate & cover) that shouldn't have put that silver junk in the master cylinder. That silver junk is more in line with a failed slave cylinder.

 

Can you see or feel anything  wrong with the bearing in the slave cylinder piston? See if you can spin the bearing where the push rod seats?

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Andre1150

Dirtrider, thank you again so much!  Always appreciate your insight and quick responses over the years. Here's the culprit. I have an extra slave from Beemer Boneyard, I'll clean out the lines and check the clutch action. Did you notice how thin the clutch plate surface looks?

20200327_145840.jpg

20200327_145824.jpg

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dirtrider
10 minutes ago, Andre1150 said:

Dirtrider, thank you again so much!  Always appreciate your insight and quick responses over the years. Here's the culprit. I have an extra slave from Beemer Boneyard, I'll clean out the lines and check the clutch action. Did you notice how thin the clutch plate surface looks?

 

 

Evening  Andre1150

 

I can't tell you much from the clutch picture, I think it looks OK but the picture is so washed out looking I really can't tell for sure. Are you looking at the full clutch disk thickness (including fiber facings) or just at the thin metal between the outer  fiber facing?

 

See if you can spin the bearing inner race in the slave cylinder?

 

Also see if you can pull the push-out to the rear just a little (make sure it isn't stuck)?  I have seen push rods wear clear through the front spring plate center (but that doesn't put silver in the master cylinder).

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Andre1150

I can't pull the pushrod out at all. Nor does it rotate freely. It feels like it's welded in there.  Which means it's stuck into the diaphragm spring seat and most likely will not come out. Therefore the entire pushrod spins due to contact with the diaphragm? and then this spins the slave bearing? causing wear as seen in the old slave I put in one year ago --- the bearing in there wobbles around all over the place.   (the new bearing wobbles a bit, but the old one nearly comes out.

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dirtrider
8 hours ago, Andre1150 said:

I can't pull the pushrod out at all. Nor does it rotate freely. It feels like it's welded in there.  Which means it's stuck into the diaphragm spring seat and most likely will not come out. Therefore the entire pushrod spins due to contact with the diaphragm? and then this spins the slave bearing? causing wear as seen in the old slave I put in one year ago --- the bearing in there wobbles around all over the place.   (the new bearing wobbles a bit, but the old one nearly comes out.

 

Morning Andre1150

 

Sorry for leaving last night but something unexpected came up.

 

The push rod usually does spin with the clutch then spin the bearing even if the front of the pushrod isn't welded tight. 

 

That push rod not coming out is difficult to tell from afar as some DO come out with difficulty even if not totally welded to the spring  but seeing as it won't come out easily tells us that is a "possible" problem point.

 

Not sure where to go next,  you might try a harder to get the push rod out. If you can get it out then see what the front looks like (did you grease the front of the push rod when you installed it last???)

 

You might also try your new slave cylinder to see it gets a clutch release back.

 

 

 

 

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Jim Moore

I wouldn't sweat the pushrod too much. It's stuck in place, but it's stuck in the correct place. With any luck you'll never have to pull the transmission so it will never be an issue.

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dirtrider
47 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

I wouldn't sweat the pushrod too much. It's stuck in place, but it's stuck in the correct place. With any luck you'll never have to pull the transmission so it will never be an issue.

 

Morning Jim

 

Problem is, it might not be stuck in the correct location as I have seen them wear deeper, or even right through the spring seat then weld themselves there (too far forward & too short at the rear to allow the slave cylinder to fully release the clutch). 

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Andre1150

I mean, that's what it looks like when pulling the handlebar clutch lever, the clutch moves ever so slightly leaving a hairline gap but I can't tell with the bike apart if it's enough to release the clutch when the engine is running. And to Dirtrider's point, if it is welded up in there, that might be why the slave failed after a year of intermittent riding

8 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Problem is, it might not be stuck in the correct location as I have seen them wear deeper, or even right through the spring seat then weld themselves there (too far forward & too short at the rear to allow the slave cylinder to fully release the clutch). 

The Fabricator

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If it doesn't spin, it is 'welded' to the pressure plate. When my rear transmission seal failed [2000 R1150GS], I tried to pull the rod out. I fabricated a collet: steel rod, drill hole the same size as rod, split the rod axially with a hack saw, clamp vice grips on the split portion so it clamps the rod. I used a pribar against the vice grip to pull on the rod. I would estimate 200 lbs force. It didn't budge. Collet slipped off.

And yes, I only discovered the leaking seal when the clutch started slipping. I managed to replace the seal with the rod in place. I lubed the slave bearing generously [already trans oil lubed], washed the friction plate off through the starter [removed] hole with a can of carb cleaner. It doesn't slip too bad. I cut the slave gasket for a drainage channel. I'll drill a hole in the cavity one day. Probably the same day I replace the friction plate and push rod.

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Andre1150 said:

I mean, that's what it looks like when pulling the handlebar clutch lever, the clutch moves ever so slightly leaving a hairline gap but I can't tell with the bike apart if it's enough to release the clutch when the engine is running. And to Dirtrider's point, if it is welded up in there, that might be why the slave failed after a year of intermittent riding

 

Afternoon  Andre1150

 

If the rear wheel & drive shaft is still in the bike just put the trans in 5th or 6th gear then pull the clutch lever in (zip tie it there) then try to spin the rear wheel.  

 

If the rear wheel will spin without a high amount of effort then the clutch is releasing OK.

 

Or,  put the trans in 5th or 6th gear then pull the clutch lever in (zip tie it there) then use something with a point (like a scribe or pointed stiff wire) & try to move/turn the clutch disk. If it seems loose then clutch is releasing. 

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Andre1150

I got the pushrod out, had to knock it around a bit, it looks like the spring disc scored a little notch in the pushrod, just in front of the angled part which was keeping the pushrod mated to the spring.

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, Andre1150 said:

I got the pushrod out, had to knock it around a bit, it looks like the spring disc scored a little notch in the pushrod, just in front of the angled part which was keeping the pushrod mated to the spring.

 

Morning  Andre1150

 

Does the push rod still look functional of are you going to replace it? 

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Andre1150

It looks functional, not too bad, I sent my little camera down the pushrod hole and checked out the spring plate mating surface, it looks ok as well.  However, after installing the new slave, bleeding the lines, etc, when pulling the clutch lever the plate only moves about 1mm, if that. You can see the spring move, which is better than it was with the old slave, but now that i'm focused on the plate movement, it looks like when I'm actuating the clutch, the clutch plate seems to still make contact by a hair -- and of course, that's got me worried that if I put the bike back together now, i'm not actually solving the problem. (have I become that much of a worry wort in my old age??) 

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dirtrider
19 hours ago, Andre1150 said:

It looks functional, not too bad, I sent my little camera down the pushrod hole and checked out the spring plate mating surface, it looks ok as well.  However, after installing the new slave, bleeding the lines, etc, when pulling the clutch lever the plate only moves about 1mm, if that. You can see the spring move, which is better than it was with the old slave, but now that i'm focused on the plate movement, it looks like when I'm actuating the clutch, the clutch plate seems to still make contact by a hair -- and of course, that's got me worried that if I put the bike back together now, i'm not actually solving the problem. (have I become that much of a worry wort in my old age??) 

 

Morning Andre1150

 

They don't clear by very much even at full release, especially with the engine not turning.

 

Have you tried moving the clutch lever adjuster to max lever stroke (lever out farther). That will give a little more release clearance.  

 

If the rear wheel & drive shaft is still in the bike put the trans in 5th or 6th gear then pull the clutch lever in (zip tie it there) then try to spin the rear wheel.  

 

If the rear wheel will spin without a high amount of effort then the clutch is probably  releasing OK.

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Andre1150

thank you. I'll try that.

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