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ESokoloff

COVID-19 Surprise?

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Joe Frickin' Friday
1 hour ago, Selden said:

 

Selden, this is great, thanks for posting.  

 

The video mentioned a group called the International Fact-Checking Network.  They maintain a list of signatories who have agreed to abide by their code of principles.  Signatories can apply for verification; if they are verified to be compliant with the principles, that verification is valid for one year, at which point it needs to be renewed.  From the list of signatories, you can click on any of them to see their verification history, and see comments from the investigator(s) who performed the verifications.  Here for example is the info about Snopes.  It seems they were verified to be IFCN-complaint for a couple of years, but their most recent verification expired about a year ago, and they haven't renewed.  Wikipedia indicates Snopes has had some cash flow issues in recent years, and the IFCN verification process costs applicants a couple hundred bucks, so this isn't terribly surprising.  

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Rougarou

Hmmm, this circled number hasn't changed very much since this debacle has started:

image.png.5a568b79fbe8fa673e151117b6979a40.png

 

I pulled this screenshot just a few minutes ago.

 

Wonder when the "real" information will come out on who, what, where, when, why this mess started.

 

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Corazon de Pollo
3 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Hmmm, this circled number hasn't changed very much since this debacle has started:

image.png.5a568b79fbe8fa673e151117b6979a40.png

 

I pulled this screenshot just a few minutes ago.

 

Wonder when the "real" information will come out on who, what, where, when, why this mess started.

 

 

And on Monday Disneyland Shanghai will re-open, State-owned China Southern Airlines expect to be back to "70-80% of pre-emergency domestic flights" by the end of June (they are presently around 50% already) and both Nissan and Volkswagen reported car sales in China seem to be recovering much faster than they originally expected. Something's definetely not right here: wasn't China supposed to be in lockdown for at least nine months? :classic_wink:

Even stranger: China and South Korea, which has a very aggressive containment strategy, allowed traveling between the two countries in limited fashion since May Day, and most of the restrictions for travels to and from Beijing have now been lifted.

Still stranger: Vietnam (a country of 98 million sharing a land border with China) has just 300 confirmed cases and no deaths.

 

Speaking of when and where this mess started, the date for the arrival of Covid-19 in Italy has been pushed back to late December/early January and came from multiple carriers, meaning the original outbreak in Wuhan must have happened earlier than the commonly accepted date of early December. November or even October now seem highly likely. As I said before somebody will have a whole lot of explaining to do.

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Selden
6 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Wonder when the "real" information will come out on who, what, where, when, why this mess started.

 

Probably never. The "official" Chinese statistics haven't been believable for months. Not reporting does not mean not happening.

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Rougarou
25 minutes ago, Selden said:

 

Probably never. The "official" Chinese statistics haven't been believable for months. Not reporting does not mean not happening.

 

Not saying its not happening.  My county "officially" dropped their listing of 11 to 10 because of "error", so, how many of these 1.2 million are actually "errors" and of the 72,xxx deaths are ACTUALLY caused, specifically, by this virus?  And since "recoveries", you know, the positive aspect of this, isn't being reported accurately, why believe anything that is out there as doom and gloom. 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
59 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Not saying its not happening.  My county "officially" dropped their listing of 11 to 10 because of "error", so, how many of these 1.2 million are actually "errors" and of the 72,xxx deaths are ACTUALLY caused, specifically, by this virus?  And since "recoveries", you know, the positive aspect of this, isn't being reported accurately, why believe anything that is out there as doom and gloom. 

 

Officially attributing the cause of any given single death is prone to error, but most often it's likely to be underreported.  In many cases they don't test for COVID because the tests are scarce, and the results won't change how they choose to treat the patient.  And if the patient dies, they aren't typically tested after that - because why waste a scarce test on a dead body?  

 

At the assisted-living facility where my dad currently lives, as of last Friday, there were officially 11 positive cases among the residents and 5 among staff, with three COVID-related resident deaths.  Unofficially, the situation seems a lot worse.  The most death notices my dad has ever seen on the lobby table at any one time over the past three years is two.  Last week, there were ten death notices on the table together.   Two typical deaths, plus three official COVID deaths, plus five “other” deaths?  The odds that those other five deaths weren’t due to COVID seem awfully , awfully low.

 

This is why the excess-deaths method (see my post upthread) is useful for assessing pandemics like this - and that method is pointing to far more COVID-related deaths than the current official tally.  In other words, there is good reason to believe the situation is considerably worse than is being reported - not just in China, but here in the US.

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Selden

Science magazine has published a detailed refutation of Mikovits' claims: Fact-checking Judy Mikovits, the controversial virologist attacking Anthony Fauci in a viral conspiracy video. The words "batshit crazy" come to mind after reading this quote:

 

Quote

Mikovits: Wearing the mask literally activates your own virus. You’re getting sick from your own reactivated coronavirus expressions, and if it happens to be SARS-CoV-2, then you’ve got a big problem.

 

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Corazon de Pollo
14 hours ago, Selden said:

 

Probably never. The "official" Chinese statistics haven't been believable for months. Not reporting does not mean not happening.

 

I strongly suspect China is a few (2? 3?) months ahead of us in the curve, and we are seeing that while the virus still propagates very aggressively it is changing its behavior in that new cases are overwhelmingly mild or even very mild, as the emptying hospital wards and ICU's prove. Yes, people are still dying but as we are reminded every day they are "overwhelmingly" long term patients who were hospitalized weeks ago. No explanation for this change of behavior yet. Also we had a longer and harder lockdown than China had, basically the whole country was locked down Wuhan style... and still people are getting sick, albeit not as gravely as before. Governor Cuomo is absolutely right to be stumped.

China is not merely not reporting new cases. They are simply not testing people with mild symptoms and if they get more serious cases they probably put them down to "people returning from abroad"... their media is full of self-laudatory pieces on how their screening and quarantine procedures caught "over 1,600 infected persons" at airports. In the meantime domestic flights keep on increasing in number by the week and are projected to be at 70% pre-crisis level by the end of June. Again: what they know that we do not. :5146:

Anyway here's another piece of weird news: yesterday the Lufthansa Group announced out of the blue they are pulling 150 aircraft from storage and recalling their crews as they will resume flights "to 106 destinations" in June. A detailed schedule will be available next week. Destinations will include "popular vacation hotspots such as Palma de Mallorca and Heraklion". I genuinely doubt Lufthansa, which has just received a lifeline worth several billions from the German and Swiss governments, would have dared making such an announcement without getting full clearance from all governments involved. IAG (British Airways, Iberia, Vueling etc) will make a similar announcement over the next couple of weeks: intriguingly enough IAG predicts flights to "vacation hotspots" will resume earlier than those to "business destinations". They are right: as soon as I am allowed I plan to ride there. :classic_wink:

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
4 hours ago, Corazon de Pollo said:

Also we had a longer and harder lockdown than China had, basically the whole country was locked down Wuhan style...

 

Don't think so.  Wuhan was locked down for 76 days.  Michigan's lockdown was most recently extended to May 28; when we get there, that will only have been 66 days.

 

As for how hard the lockdown is here vs. Wuhan, guess again:

 

Quote

Soon, videos began to emerge on social media of authorities appearing to force Wuhan residents into quarantine.

 

Australian Tim McLean, filming from Wuhan where he lives with his Chinese spouse, says, “the police are actually knocking on doors and taking temperatures, and if people have got a temperature, they’re dragging them out, mate. ... You don’t get an option.”

 

Residents also post video footage online that they say shows officials welding the doors of apartment buildings shut.

 

One video, featured in Coronavirus, shows a woman screaming from her balcony: “Help! My mother is dying. Someone come quickly! I have no way out!”

 

Meanwhile in the US, some shop owners have been opening their shops in violation of stay-at-home orders, with no legal consequence except in a few widely publicized cases.  Protestors are gathering at state capitols, eschewing masks and standing shoulder to shoulder, also in violation of stay-at-home orders, and also with little or no legal consequence. 

 

There is nothing "Wuhan style" about the US lockdown.  

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MikeRC
On 5/8/2020 at 5:51 AM, Rougarou said:

Hmmm, this circled number hasn't changed very much since this debacle has started: 

 

(Johns Hopkins COVID-19 map with China total cases circled)

 

I pulled this screenshot just a few minutes ago.

 

Wonder when the "real" information will come out on who, what, where, when, why this mess started.

 

 

Although it is pretty technical, many of the answers to your questions are in a paper published on February 24th: Characteristics of and Important Lessons From the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Outbreak in China 

 

Particularly look at Figure 1: Epidemic Curve of the Confirmed Cases and the timeline notes below the figure.

 

There is some important historical perspective here.  The identifying genome and protein information of the virus wasn't available until mid January and the first reliable PCR  (nasal swab) tests to identify the virus weren't available until late January.  So all the cases in China from December to late January were just the most severe ones identified on the clinical basis of bilateral pneumonia where influenza or bacterial pneumonia was ruled out.  But we now know that here are probably 20-25 cases that would be PCR positive for each severe case with pneumonia.  Since China had identified 2,000 clinical cases by January 22, they actually had probably had 40,000 - 50,000 at that point (equivalent of our current case definition).  But that was just a technical limitation that would have applied to any country.  China has actually gone back to run PCR tests on some tissue samples and nasal swabs previous to February and identified many more positives. 

So purely technical and definition issues contribute to undercounting the number of actual COVID-19 cases in China by tens of thousands.   Nothing sinister or deceptive there.  

 

Who knows how the counts are limited by political mechanisms and government propaganda?   Is it 10,000 more? 200,000 more?  We will probably never know.  

 

More importantly,  is to pay attention to the rapid (and wide-ranging) lockdown starting in the cities (Wuhan)  and then spreading to the entire Hubei province starting in late January.  And the severely limited travel measures and public health policies throughout China that existed from late January to late April.  I advise you to do a search for expat descriptions of just how strict those measures were. 

 

What we have done with our shutdowns in Europe and North America is nothing by comparison to what was done in China.  In that way, China essentially had the epidemic under control by late February outside of Hubei province (Wuhan) and in Hubei Province by mid-March.   

 

A country of 1.4 billion people was able to get their new case counts down below 100 per day within 6 weeks of starting the Wuhan lockdown.  But a country of 1.4 billion people were essentially under martial law and in their houses for 4-6 weeks other than one or two hours a week to walk out to get groceries.  

 

But China still waited 4 full weeks between epidemic control and reopening their economy and significant social interaction was allowed.  A country of 1.4 billion people was made to wait 4 weeks after they had the epidemic essentially under control.  

 

Their reward for their patience is a gradual reopening and return to daily life.  At least adjusted for social distancing and their previous definition of daily life. 

 

And when you get down to new daily case counts below a few hundred you can keep the disease under control with: 

  • readily available testing
  • rapid case identification
  • contact tracing
  • strict quarantine/isolation of the sick, contacts and families 
  • social and financial support for anyone who is sick or isolating 

But I doubt whether any Western nations would tolerate the kind of restrictions to our individual rights and freedoms to allow the same tracking, controls and restrictions that have resulted in China, Taiwan and Singapore to be so effective in their response. 

 

Mike C 

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Rougarou
20 hours ago, MikeRC said:

 

Although it is pretty technical, many of the answers to your questions are in a paper published on February 24th: Characteristics of and Important Lessons From the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Outbreak in China 

 

Particularly look at Figure 1: Epidemic Curve of the Confirmed Cases and the timeline notes below the figure.

 

There is some important historical perspective here.  The identifying genome and protein information of the virus wasn't available until mid January and the first reliable PCR  (nasal swab) tests to identify the virus weren't available until late January.  So all the cases in China from December to late January were just the most severe ones identified on the clinical basis of bilateral pneumonia where influenza or bacterial pneumonia was ruled out.  But we now know that here are probably 20-25 cases that would be PCR positive for each severe case with pneumonia.  Since China had identified 2,000 clinical cases by January 22, they actually had probably had 40,000 - 50,000 at that point (equivalent of our current case definition).  But that was just a technical limitation that would have applied to any country.  China has actually gone back to run PCR tests on some tissue samples and nasal swabs previous to February and identified many more positives. 

So purely technical and definition issues contribute to undercounting the number of actual COVID-19 cases in China by tens of thousands.   Nothing sinister or deceptive there.  

 

Who knows how the counts are limited by political mechanisms and government propaganda?   Is it 10,000 more? 200,000 more?  We will probably never know.  

 

More importantly,  is to pay attention to the rapid (and wide-ranging) lockdown starting in the cities (Wuhan)  and then spreading to the entire Hubei province starting in late January.  And the severely limited travel measures and public health policies throughout China that existed from late January to late April.  I advise you to do a search for expat descriptions of just how strict those measures were. 

 

What we have done with our shutdowns in Europe and North America is nothing by comparison to what was done in China.  In that way, China essentially had the epidemic under control by late February outside of Hubei province (Wuhan) and in Hubei Province by mid-March.   

 

A country of 1.4 billion people was able to get their new case counts down below 100 per day within 6 weeks of starting the Wuhan lockdown.  But a country of 1.4 billion people were essentially under martial law and in their houses for 4-6 weeks other than one or two hours a week to walk out to get groceries.  

 

But China still waited 4 full weeks between epidemic control and reopening their economy and significant social interaction was allowed.  A country of 1.4 billion people was made to wait 4 weeks after they had the epidemic essentially under control.  

 

Their reward for their patience is a gradual reopening and return to daily life.  At least adjusted for social distancing and their previous definition of daily life. 

 

And when you get down to new daily case counts below a few hundred you can keep the disease under control with: 

  • readily available testing
  • rapid case identification
  • contact tracing
  • strict quarantine/isolation of the sick, contacts and families 
  • social and financial support for anyone who is sick or isolating 

But I doubt whether any Western nations would tolerate the kind of restrictions to our individual rights and freedoms to allow the same tracking, controls and restrictions that have resulted in China, Taiwan and Singapore to be so effective in their response. 

 

Mike C 

 

That's all well and good, but concerning lockdown.  When all this lockdown initially started in the "western" countries, I started looking at Earthcam particularly, the areas that were the "breakouts".  Italian webcams, during days and nights, showed zero activity, no one on the streets, no one moving, highways and roads showed minimal vehicles, yet, their numbers continued to rise and are still rising, albeit slower.  From what I've seen perusing these various locations, Italy, was on a severe lockdown.  And streets are still empty today:

image.png.5994e8721a8b2bbabced5320672ec5e4.png  image.thumb.png.e7a3e15fda298f0df1b1072456cbebe0.pngimage.thumb.png.b3b1f0a0f0546d147e1391eae10042c8.png

 

But Milan shows "some" activity:

image.thumb.png.75c9c2dda31d133271aa990610fec62b.png

 

If we had access to China's webcams, I'd venture to SWAG that the activity would mimic that of Italy, yet China's numbers " essentially stopped" rising while the lockdown of Italy continued to rise..........hmmmm, a country of 1.4 billion people only reporting 83k cases, of which, the outbreak began, meanwhile, Italy has 283k reported cases, a country of only 60 million, c'mon.

 

 

 

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MikeRC
4 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

That's all well and good, but concerning lockdown.  When all this lockdown initially started in the "western" countries, I started looking at Earthcam particularly, the areas that were the "breakouts".  Italian webcams, during days and nights, showed zero activity, no one on the streets, no one moving, highways and roads showed minimal vehicles, yet, their numbers continued to rise and are still rising, albeit slower.  From what I've seen perusing these various locations, Italy, was on a severe lockdown.  And streets are still empty today: (various webcam screenshots, mostly Venice)

 

But Milan shows "some" activity (Webcam view of Milan Duomo)

 

If we had access to China's webcams, I'd venture to SWAG that the activity would mimic that of Italy, yet China's numbers " essentially stopped" rising while the lockdown of Italy continued to rise..........hmmmm, a country of 1.4 billion people only reporting 83k cases, of which, the outbreak began, meanwhile, Italy has 283k reported cases, a country of only 60 million, c'mon.

 

 

 

I certainly agree that official government numbers coming from China are suspect.  However, during the height of the initial outbreak medical reports and social media clearly showed a very serious epidemic.  Add that to indirect evidence such as Chinese procurement of PPE from other countries and their appeals to Chinese Nationals and expats living overseas for financial and logistic aid showed a very serious threat.  All that has receded.  Could be because the threat (epidemic) been controlled, could be even more oppressive government control.  

 

I referred to an excellent editorial by a Croation epidemiologist currently in Edinburgh at the bottom of this post that suggests some of the reasons why the Italy outbreak was so bad and why it dragged on.  No proof, and as discussed there will be national /international commissions and investigations for many years to come that will help to explain what went wrong.  And hopefully help us to develop more effective preventive and management measures of future epidemics. 

 

But the short version is that any infection is spreading in the background before you notice it, and the difference of even a few days in bringing in isolation and quarantine measures has a multiplying effect on the outcome of the epidemic.  Although it may have looked on the street that those measures were in place, the infection already had deeper roots and was still spreading.  That was due to a combination of social (population density, multigenerational families sharing living space, older average age of residents) and health care delivery issues as well.  Apparently there were also outbreaks in businesses (especially factories) that were initially excluded from the lockdowns.    

 

Numbers of infections continue to rise (even under lockdown) because of the delay between when you get exposed, when you are contagious, how long you are contagious, and who you can still pass it on to to repeat the whole process.  In the case of SARS-CoV-2 that could take 50 days in a family of 5.  Or 200 days or longer in a school or workplace or assisted living institution.  China was much stricter and earlier in imposing lockdowns and emptying all but the most essential workplaces and shared living spaces.  

 

I want to emphasis again that the difference of only a few days in imposing quarantine and isolation makes a massive (some use the term exponential) difference in an epidemic spread and outcome once the disease has gained a stable foothold.  

 

Europe and Italy have made great strides in controlling case numbers.  Italy has now dropped to about 1,000 new cases a day from their peak of 6,500 per day in mid-March.   But thorough isolation and contact tracing of even a few hundred new cases a day is a monumental task.  I'm not sure how they will manage unless they see more of a drop in new case numbers.   

 

 

 

Mike C

20200510_ItalyDailyCases.jpg

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Corazon de Pollo
On 5/9/2020 at 5:24 PM, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Don't think so.  Wuhan was locked down for 76 days.  Michigan's lockdown was most recently extended to May 28; when we get there, that will only have been 66 days.

 

As for how hard the lockdown is here vs. Wuhan, guess again:

 

 

Meanwhile in the US, some shop owners have been opening their shops in violation of stay-at-home orders, with no legal consequence except in a few widely publicized cases.  Protestors are gathering at state capitols, eschewing masks and standing shoulder to shoulder, also in violation of stay-at-home orders, and also with little or no legal consequence. 

 

There is nothing "Wuhan style" about the US lockdown.  

 

Sorry for questioning you almighty Americans. The world begins and ends with you so if we don't live in Michigan or California tough luck, we don't even exist.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
1 hour ago, Corazon de Pollo said:

 

Sorry for questioning you almighty Americans. The world begins and ends with you so if we don't live in Michigan or California tough luck, we don't even exist.

 

Your profile doesn't list a location.  Am I to understand you do not live in the US? It's an easy assumption for someone to make, since the vast majority of BMWST members are in fact US residents.  Nevertheless, I should have checked instead of assuming; my apologies.

 

I just took a few minutes to skim through your posting history, and I see now where you mention that you live in northern Italy.   You may wish to consider adding this information to your profile so it's easier for other folks to find it. 

 

 

 

 

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Warren Dean
3 hours ago, Corazon de Pollo said:

 

Sorry for questioning you almighty Americans. The world begins and ends with you so if we don't live in Michigan or California tough luck, we don't even exist.

 

Are you kidding me???  You sound like a teenager with that crap. ..."you Almighty Americans"...piss off!!

 

Yeah...we are interested in what is going on in OUR country, not yours. And American members post on what is relevant to America. So what?  Get over yourself.

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Selden
3 hours ago, Corazon de Pollo said:

 

Sorry for questioning you almighty Americans. The world begins and ends with you so if we don't live in Michigan or California tough luck, we don't even exist.

 

Given the way we have behaved toward the rest of the world over the past three years, this is comment is not surprising. Beyond what they may have learned in high school, most Americans don't know any language other than English, and probably couldn't find Italy on a map. For that matter, something like 1/3 of Americans can't even find the United States on a world map. When I was travelling in Italy in 1964-65, saying I was Canadian carried less baggage. We're not all loud and obnoxious. My wife and I were greeted warmly on return trips in the spring of 2018 and 2019 — speaking a little Italian was a big help.

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eddd
54 minutes ago, Warren Dean said:

 

Are you kidding me???  You sound like a teenager with that crap. ..."you Almighty Americans"...piss off!!

 

Yeah...we are interested in what is going on in OUR country, not yours. And American members post on what is relevant to America. So what?  Get over yourself.

 

Personal attacks are not allowed.  The use "Almighty Americans" while a bit inflammatory, is not a personal attack on any particular board member.  Your response however is a personal attack. It is important to remember that while our members are predominantly from the US, we are an international group that welcomes members from all countries.  The Covid-19 is a global pandemic, and as such what happens in other countries provides valuable insight to those everywhere who are looking to contain the spread of the virus.   

 

Ed

Staff

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rclbaker

Thank you Ed.

I am a dutch guy and - like all members - a devoted fan of german BMW Motorrad. Although I don't contribute very much I am always impressed by the way people respectfully talk with each other. About bikes of course. But also about political issues.

 

I had several working visits in the US (Kansas, California) in the nineties and it was always an enormous pleasure to cooperate, possibly with some of you!

 

Why this contribution? Well, for me it is interesting to hear your thoughts about how effective politicians are acting in the struggle against the Corona virus and which incentives are playing a role.

I can learn from your conversations in addition to what I read at sites of CNN, Politico, NYT, Bloomberg etc.

 

Cheers to all,

Rob

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Rougarou
2 hours ago, Warren Dean said:

 

Are you kidding me???  You sound like a teenager with that crap. ..."you Almighty Americans"...piss off!!

 

Yeah...we are interested in what is going on in OUR country, not yours. And American members post on what is relevant to America. So what?  Get over yourself.

 

C'mon man,.....this wasn't called for.  He was responding to a direct quote where JFF mistakenly took him to be in the States.

 

This virus is not "regional", it's worldly......and much of what Europe has done has filtered our way.

 

This is a WORLD board with members from several countries,......don't be THAT American.

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Warren Dean

Ok, points made.

 

I have a better understanding of this board's makeup now.

 

No more personal comments on the subject. 

 

Peace, Out

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taylor1

Let me break the ice . NIETHER one of those comments were called for or appropriate

This addition to the forum has been very interesting with extremely intelligent point and counterpoints.

It would be a shame to ruin it by casting stones

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Paul De

Maybe we are all getting a little shack wacky with the stay at home efforts and the isolation that comes with it from many social/public activities.  I find I have a shorter threshold to become irritated, so I upped the exercise level, started a conscious effort to use Zoom and FaceTime more to connect with friends and family which has helped keep me chill and am paying attention my civility.

 

The idea that the world was overdue for an pandemic has been widely discussed for more than a decade, but because it was in the abstract few, if any, nations invested enough into true readiness.   COVID-19 came on with a transmission rate that was a more extreme than what anyone has seen since 1918. COVID-19 has exposed the weaknesses in our public health policies and response systems world wide. Supplies and supply chains were strained and then broken.  Politicians have behaved across the spectrum from competent crisis managers, to head in the sand fearful to act, and to down right incompetent. It was so lucky for us all that the mortality rate was only about 10x the common flu.  Had it been 100x greater we would be in the mortality rate of the black death during the 1300's.  

 

There will be post pandemic analysis of how well our public health systems and politicians responded. Voters will get their chance to reward or punish as they see fit.  The bigger question for me is will we (globally) really learn the lessons and address the points of failure.  I doubt it, at least not here in the US. We'll go back to bitching about government overreach, want our tax cuts rather than to invest what is needed into public health systems, people opting out of getting themselves and their children vaccinated, and of course,  want our low cost products driven by global trade.  Wash, rise, repeat!

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Selden

Yesterday, I apologized to the guy who bought my RT, saying that I was sorry I had been such a non-stop motormouth the day before, but realized that I had not had a real, face-to-face conversation with another human being other than my wife in weeks. She is enough of an enthusiast to recognize a Ducati clutch rattle, but this guy was a true gearhead.

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Rougarou

Sooo, I'm discovering another side effect of COVID.  Being short on the hearing thing, these mask wearing people are driving me bananas 'cause I can't understand the words coming out of their mouths.

 

Some, I'll tell them, if you're gonna talk to me, you gotta take that thing off, otherwise, I can't "see what you're saying",......see what I'm saying!!

 

Even with the hearing aids in, it is difficult......throw in any background noise and I have to bring an interpreter (good hearing person).

 

Ugh!!!!

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Hosstage

That is an issue, for sure. I find myself speaking just a little louder and annunciating a little clearer when wearing a mask. I also find myself concentrating a little harder to understand others.

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lawnchairboy
mickeym3

Hadn’t thought too much about suicide spiking during all this.  Realize how painful and debilitating depression can be, having a battle with it 50 years ago and experiencing it with friends and family.  Can’t help but wonder if cultural shifts (religion, social platforms, family cohesiveness etc.) haven’t played a role in reducing our emotional resilience.  So many young people really haven’t gone through any major shocks on the national level. They’re largely isolated from extreme poverty and violence and this is their first real “reality check”. Seems fairly insignificant compared to growing up during the Vietnam War but perhaps I’m just not aware of what young people are dealing with these days. 

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lawnchairboy

I hope that suicide, domestic violence, and food supply problems don't kill more than the virus.

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Rougarou

Sooo, the local race track is going to do a "protest" race because the esteemed governor closed another speedway but, they've done nothing concerning auctions.

 

Two weeks ago, the wife and I attended an estate auction and, boy was it crowded.  Hundreds of people in attendance.

 

The picture below is but a small sampling of how many were there.  The auction company ran two auction arenas because of so much stuff.

auction.JPG

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ESokoloff
On 6/13/2020 at 5:59 PM, Rougarou said:

Two weeks ago, the wife and I attended an estate auction and, boy was it crowded.  Hundreds of people in attendance.


According to rt.live, cases in NC have been steadily rising since restrictions were put in place. 
 

It’s a fine line between keeping both the public & economy safe.

I hope you (& others) keep a cow's distance between others when your out & about. 

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ESokoloff

I follow the YouTube postings of Dr. John Campbell. 
His latest video (link)  is quite interesting as it discusses the possibility of COVID-19 discovered in Barcelona Spain's sewers from March of 2019.  
No doubt other municipalities will be testing their archived waste water samples. 

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Rougarou
On 6/14/2020 at 11:55 PM, ESokoloff said:


According to rt.live, cases in NC have been steadily rising since restrictions were put in place. 
 

It’s a fine line between keeping both the public & economy safe.

I hope you (& others) keep a cow's distance between others when your out & about. 

 

Went to another auction on 27 June, since the mandatory mask went into effect, there were more people wearing them than the previous auction.  1/4-1/2 I'd SWAG.  Probably 200+ people there.  The wife and I started with ours on, but, meh, took them off about an hour into the auction.  We were there from about 1030-1700.

 

 Out of the 63484 positive cases in NC, 1325 people have died, it's a 0.020 chance of dying if you contract it.  "Oh, but you could be asymptomatic and pass it along",......keep your distance then.

 

It's funny how "cases are on the rise".  I live in a very rural county, pop of the county is about 48k.  The county was at a steady 10 cases reported, nine recovered for weeks and weeks, UNTIL, they started mass testing.  Within a week the count went up 400% and now, we're at 125 cases with one dead.  So, in my simplistic military mind, if you test more, you find more, hence the "rise".

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ESokoloff
1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

Out of the 63484 positive cases in NC, 1325 people have died, it's a 0.020 chance of dying if you contract it.  "Oh, but you could be asymptomatic and pass it along",......keep your distance then.

 

It's funny how "cases are on the rise".  I live in a very rural county, pop of the county is about 48k.  The county was at a steady 10 cases reported, nine recovered for weeks and weeks, UNTIL, they started mass testing.  Within a week the count went up 400% and now, we're at 125 cases with one dead.  So, in my simplistic military mind, if you test more, you find more, hence the "rise".

 

 

Just to be clear on the math it’s a 2.08% change of death (using your figures) but what about the the long term effects?

 

Re cases on the rise, rt .live explains why their data has changed.  

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Rougarou
14 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

 

 

Just to be clear on the math it’s a 2.08% change of death (using your figures) but what about the the long term effects?

 

Re cases on the rise, rt .live explains why their data has changed.  

 

Damn, math for marines forgot to move my decimal:4607:

 

Anyway, 2% is still extremely low as it's a 98% chance of survival. 

 

Key words in the first paragraph of your link "possible long term".  So, in six months, doctors, that have no cure, no vaccine, no real mitigation, can predict five, ten, fifteen years down the road as to what effects are everlasting??????

 

 

 

 

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realshelby

The problem is that ignorance is no defense of the disease. There are areas where I KNOW they wonder what this is all about, simply because the population is so spread out. 

Not wearing your mask may be a personal choice to you, but when that choice effects others it is beyond your comfort and disdain for policy. 

2% + death rate seems low, and if you are very healthy it may be way less in real numbers for your "bracket". 

What you don't see on the news is how many are taking weeks to recover. Common for a two week stay in the hospital. Two months isn't unheard of. Even for those that are not in the weak category. 

Just now they are starting to understand the effects of Covid 19 beyond the actual infection period. Too many side effects are showing up that could mean long term health issues. Far beyond what a Flu or other common ailment might give. 

We won't defeat this for a long time. Until then we are buying time. Buying time to keep our Hospitals from being overwhelmed. 

We have paid the price here in Texas for jumping to open everything too soon. I am all for allowing workers back, even restaurants to open with limited capacity. We have to get back to work. But when you have bars and certain other establishments allowing crowded conditions, we are where we are now. Yes, more testing will show more positive results. But when the testing percentages that show positive are this much higher, Houston, we have a problem!

 

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eddd
5 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Damn, math for marines forgot to move my decimal:4607:

 

Anyway, 2% is still extremely low as it's a 98% chance of survival. 

 

Key words in the first paragraph of your link "possible long term".  So, in six months, doctors, that have no cure, no vaccine, no real mitigation, can predict five, ten, fifteen years down the road as to what effects are everlasting??????

 

 

 

 

 

Long term effects of lung disease/damage are well known and documented, so yes, making those types of predictions is quite routine.  

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chrisolson
7 hours ago, realshelby said:

What you don't see on the news is how many are taking weeks to recover. Common for a two week stay in the hospital. Two months isn't unheard of. Even for those that are not in the weak category. 

Just now they are starting to understand the effects of Covid 19 beyond the actual infection period. Too many side effects are showing up that could mean long term health issues. Far beyond what a Flu or other common ailment might give. 

 

 

It does seem to be a common perception amongst the bar/beach crowds that "oh well, get a little bit sick ...maybe ....  but if you do get sick , it all goes away and you're back to normal quickly.  There's a teeny-tiny chance of dying but that  really just doesn't happen with younger, healthier folks."  

 

A loft of media information like symptoms, incubation time and recovery is out of date.  First on it was assumed that if you had Covid-19 you had symptoms like fever, cough, etc ... now proven wrong .... it was first thought all infections resulted in severe illness .... now proven wrong .... it was thought that the mortality rate was quite high ...  it seems like this is also proving false .... its was thought that if you didn't have to be admitted to a hospital, you recovered  and that was it ....  however that is now also being proven wrong for a percentage of the population.

 

This changing information doesn't mean the medical community or the media was wrong, it means that new data requires updated theories and responses.  But we need to get that information out and update the general public's knowledge.

 

Covid-19  recovery doesn't always mean "back to normal"  ... it can, but not always.  There needs to be more public information about what happens after initial infection.  Problem is its more difficult to craft a flashy news story about it.  As well , it takes time to do a scientifically valid study.

 

Given that time,  the medical community is now finding  many cases of lingering illness and other side effects like "chronic fatigue, low tolerance to exercise, weakness, and achiness ... as well as a variety of lingering effects on the kidneys, gastrointestinal tract, and neurological system" **

 

And this is not always in "at risk" patients either.

 

 

** source 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86482

 

another on long term effects

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2020/06/02/covid-health-effects

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lawnchairboy
On 5/24/2020 at 2:48 PM, lawnchairboy said:

I hope that suicide, domestic violence, and food supply problems don't kill more than the virus.

https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Cries-for-help-Drug-overdoses-are-soaring-15379338.php

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/us/homicides-shootings-spike-us-cities/index.html

 

 

lockdowns and associated plague measures are killing people at a pretty good clip. 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
On 6/30/2020 at 7:14 AM, Rougarou said:

 

Went to another auction on 27 June, since the mandatory mask went into effect, there were more people wearing them than the previous auction.  1/4-1/2 I'd SWAG.  Probably 200+ people there.  The wife and I started with ours on, but, meh, took them off about an hour into the auction.  We were there from about 1030-1700.

 

 Out of the 63484 positive cases in NC, 1325 people have died, it's a 0.020 chance of dying if you contract it.  "Oh, but you could be asymptomatic and pass it along",......keep your distance then.

 

Wearing a mask and practicing social distancing (including staying away from large crowds of people) is literally the very least you can do to protect other people.  So what I hear you saying is "if you're vulnerable you should stay away from this event because I'm not willing to do the very least I can do to help prevent the spread of this disease."

 

You're in good company.  This was the scene last weekend at Diamond Lake here in Michigan:

 

 

It's only been a few days since that flesh-fest, but seems likely that within a few weeks, we'll see it result in a large outbreak of new cases.  It's the same sort of pattern that happened to mid-June patrons of an East Lansing bar:  128 such patrons have since tested positive, and 24 additional cases have resulted in people who came into contact with those patrons but were never at the bar.  It's likely that at least a few fatalities will result from this, along with more than a few hospitalizations.  

 

The first time I went to Japan, I was kind of weirded out that a significant fraction of the people I saw were wearing masks.  I thought they were just germophobes, but I've since learned that the situation was quite the opposite: a few were dealing with allergies, but most were people who were fighting a cold and were wearing a mask to avoid spreading the infection to other people.  Seems like a nice thing to do, doesn't it?  Being considerate of your fellow man?  That kind of consideration of others is so baked into Japanese culture that when the Japanese government asked everyone to mask up a few months ago, it was a no-brainer: everyone in Japan masked up.   Meanwhile, here in the US when health officials try to get people to wear masks, the people respond with death threats, scream something about rights and freedom, and then gather in big groups and start hugging everyone within reach.  

 

Either that, or they just throw meat everywhere:

 

 

So, does mask wearing matter?

image.png.eac8f31167ee59f193e2403b7b96f679.png

 

Japan's total COVID deaths-per-million-people is less than two percent that of the US.  That's incredible.  There are probably a number of reasons for this, but if public health officials are to be believed, mask-wearing a critically important tool for limiting the spread of contagious diseases

 

I wonder how many disabiltiy-adjusted life years the US could save if sick folks here wore masks during cold and flu season like they do in Japan?  I wonder how many DALYs we could have saved during this pandemic if we had more closely heeded the advice of public health experts?

 

On 6/30/2020 at 8:53 AM, Rougarou said:

Key words in the first paragraph of your link "possible long term".  So, in six months, doctors, that have no cure, no vaccine, no real mitigation, can predict five, ten, fifteen years down the road as to what effects are everlasting??????

 

Such long-term effects have already been observed: strokes, lung damage, heart damage, and other stuff you really, really don't want.  PTSD for example is a common long-term complication for people who spend time on a ventilator.  It sure is fun to mock those killjoy public health officials - "idiots, what do they know?" - as you walk out the door, sans-mask, enroute to your next auction.  Admittedly, they lost some credibility with their early position on the effectiveness of wearing masks, which was either a mistake (made in the early days when less was known about transmission) or a difficult choice that was deliberately made to preserve stockpiles of N95 masks for health care workers.   But enough is known now about masks and COVID transmission so that it seems far more sensible to base your personal mask-wearing and social-distancing policy on what public health officials are saying, and not on what the people around you are doing.  

 

image.png.2c714270491a17db3fe88ab212e3b6c9.png

 

 

 

On 7/1/2020 at 12:18 PM, lawnchairboy said:

lockdowns and associated plague measures are killing people at a pretty good clip. 

 

Lockdowns are indeed hard.  If more people wore masks and practiced social distancing, maybe we wouldn't need them anymore.  

 

 

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realshelby

Unfortunately, not wearing  a mask has become a political statement. 

 

I agree that wearing a mask is at least if not more important in not SPREADING disease as protection from it. 

 

Seems like so small an inconvenience to me. 

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taylor1

As they say , ignorance is bliss , and we are all blissful in our own way 

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Skywagon

Lost a good friend last night to Covid 19...he was 52 years old. Be careful folks.

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lawnchairboy

Sorry Mitch, I agree lockdowns are hard but  I think in the US, more will die from elements of the cure rather than the disease.   I have posted many links supporting, at least temporally, violence, drug overdose increases and decreases in health seeking behavior.  Lockdowns seem to have wide variability state to state.  I don't think we should have the philosophy that "yeah it sucks, BUT PEOPLE WILL DIE!!!!"   It is unnecessarily fear inducing, which is also the goal for some in the world I think.    The mortality rate (at least in the commonwealth) runs about two percent.   Hospitalization is running around 9-10% of cases.   The vulnerable are still vulnerable and will continue to be.   Sequester the vulnerable, sensible precautions for everyone else.  Older sicker patients die more from MOST comorbidities MORE than others.   Not news to anyone in the health professions.   I lived in Japan for several years, i agree with your characterization of the Japanese wearing masks.  I think it is out of necessity due to density there.  We loved Japan. 

 

update:  I have now been called upon to manage exactly one airway that was a confirmed Covid case at my own facility since this fun began.   Many hundreds of hours sitting around "in case" though.   Your tax dollars at work.  

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Rougarou
7 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Wearing a mask and practicing social distancing (including staying away from large crowds of people) is literally the very least you can do to protect other people.  So what I hear you saying is "if you're vulnerable you should stay away from this event because I'm not willing to do the very least I can do to help prevent the spread of this disease."

 

You're in good company.  This was the scene last weekend at Diamond Lake here in Michigan:

 

 

It's only been a few days since that flesh-fest, but seems likely that within a few weeks, we'll see it result in a large outbreak of new cases.  It's the same sort of pattern that happened to mid-June patrons of an East Lansing bar:  128 such patrons have since tested positive, and 24 additional cases have resulted in people who came into contact with those patrons but were never at the bar.  It's likely that at least a few fatalities will result from this, along with more than a few hospitalizations.  

 

The first time I went to Japan, I was kind of weirded out that a significant fraction of the people I saw were wearing masks.  I thought they were just germophobes, but I've since learned that the situation was quite the opposite: a few were dealing with allergies, but most were people who were fighting a cold and were wearing a mask to avoid spreading the infection to other people.  Seems like a nice thing to do, doesn't it?  Being considerate of your fellow man?  That kind of consideration of others is so baked into Japanese culture that when the Japanese government asked everyone to mask up a few months ago, it was a no-brainer: everyone in Japan masked up.   Meanwhile, here in the US when health officials try to get people to wear masks, the people respond with death threats, scream something about rights and freedom, and then gather in big groups and start hugging everyone within reach.  

 

Either that, or they just throw meat everywhere:

 

 

So, does mask wearing matter?

image.png.eac8f31167ee59f193e2403b7b96f679.png

 

Japan's total COVID deaths-per-million-people is less than two percent that of the US.  That's incredible.  There are probably a number of reasons for this, but if public health officials are to be believed, mask-wearing a critically important tool for limiting the spread of contagious diseases

 

I wonder how many disabiltiy-adjusted life years the US could save if sick folks here wore masks during cold and flu season like they do in Japan?  I wonder how many DALYs we could have saved during this pandemic if we had more closely heeded the advice of public health experts?

 

 

Such long-term effects have already been observed: strokes, lung damage, heart damage, and other stuff you really, really don't want.  PTSD for example is a common long-term complication for people who spend time on a ventilator.  It sure is fun to mock those killjoy public health officials - "idiots, what do they know?" - as you walk out the door, sans-mask, enroute to your next auction.  Admittedly, they lost some credibility with their early position on the effectiveness of wearing masks, which was either a mistake (made in the early days when less was known about transmission) or a difficult choice that was deliberately made to preserve stockpiles of N95 masks for health care workers.   But enough is known now about masks and COVID transmission so that it seems far more sensible to base your personal mask-wearing and social-distancing policy on what public health officials are saying, and not on what the people around you are doing.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lockdowns are indeed hard.  If more people wore masks and practiced social distancing, maybe we wouldn't need them anymore.  

 

 

 

"if you're vulnerable you should stay away from this event because I'm not willing to do the very least I can do to help prevent the spread of this disease."

 

But I am doing the very least, I'm overtly showing you that you need to keep your distance.

 

 

 

 

I LIVED in Japan, yes, some wear mask when they are sick, but currently "knowing" people that live there at this moment in time, they're testing was lacking, hence the numbers.  These folks I know live on the Japanese economy as ex-pats, employed by Japanese and not just 'merican's working near bases.  If you had looked at the earthcams of Tokyo a couple of months ago, you would have seen plenty of Japanese NOT wearing masks (watch during rush hour),.....were they making a political statement?  Oh, but wait,.....that's "outside",......at least that's how the defense of protestors, rioters, looters and such are "forgiven",.....but your video also shows "outside"

 

I notice you are not including the protests, rioting and statue "yank downs" in your "concerns" of spreading covid,.....hmmmm, was every single protestor, rioter and statue puller wearing a mask and practicing the proper distance?, methinks nope, so, we should see a rise around ALL of these events, if not, mebbee herd immunity is kicking in.

 

For me, its not about "rights and freedom", it's no different than not getting the flu vaccine, I just don't do it, haven't since 2009 when I retired from active duty (now that would be a considerate thing for people to do, actually serve their country).  I've had more needles poked in me than the average person, have been issued non-FDA meds during the gulf war and "watched" as we took the pills with an open mouth "inspection".   PTSD, meh, I may or may not have that too, getting shot at, bombed, rocketed and mortared may just have a lasting effect on a person.  The wife says "you have a short temper", my response is "no, I have a quick reaction to bullshit".

 

So, yes, I will disregard the consideration for others, if that's what you seem to think I'm doing, I'm amongst many that do the same thing.  At work someone commented to me "nice chin guard", my comment back was "they said I had to wear it, but they didn't say how". 

 

 

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
16 hours ago, Rougarou said:

I LIVED in Japan, yes, some wear mask when they are sick, but currently "knowing" people that live there at this moment in time, they're testing was lacking, hence the numbers.

 

Japan definitely has been testing less than the US:

 

image.png.980d84983ffb468e07b2c5ee8998c96d.png

 

 

The question is why.  Shortages of testing resources is one possible reason for low testing numbers.  Another possible reason is that few people are coming into the doc's office and asking to be tested.

 

Japan definitely did have testing shortages early on, but by late May they were meeting their daily testing goals.  At this point, if the tests-per-day figure is low, it's more likely because few people are asking to be tested.  Overall, Japan is testing enough people so that for every person who tests positive, 24.6 other people test negative whereas the ratio is about 1:11.5 here in the US:

 

image.png.753bc99519970d93d475799d29b64a99.png

 

So either Japan is encouraging people with extremely mild symptoms to get tested (because they've got plenty of tests), or the US needs to get even more people to come in and get tested so we can find more of the positive cases that are still out there and get them to self-quarantine before they spread it to others.

 

I'm not aware of any testing shortages in Japan now (mid-July).  At this point the current US-Japan disparity in new cases per day is staggering:

 

image.png.5d83ab462a00bde9c2175ba8ef28cfdf.png

 

If testing shortages in Japan accounted for even a tiny portion of this difference, it would be newsworthy.  

 

 

17 hours ago, Rougarou said:

If you had looked at the earthcams of Tokyo a couple of months ago, you would have seen plenty of Japanese NOT wearing masks (watch during rush hour),

 

A couple of months ago was early May.  The official request for everybody in Japan to wear masks didn't go out until May 4.  Here's the stats from May 5:

 

 

image.thumb.png.457ba3d1bd2efbbc38054ee480f8f877.png

 

 

17 hours ago, Rougarou said:

I notice you are not including the protests, rioting and statue "yank downs" in your "concerns" of spreading covid,.....hmmmm, was every single protestor, rioter and statue puller wearing a mask and practicing the proper distance?, methinks nope, so, we should see a rise around ALL of these events, if not, mebbee herd immunity is kicking in.

 

It wasn't my intention to post an exhaustive list of events that could lead to an increase in disease burden.  The examples I gave were fresh in my mind because they were local and recent.  If I wanted to be more comprehensive, yes, I would have included the BLM protests, along with the anti-mask protests that happened in April in several state capitals, people who insist on going to packed churches and beaches, frat parties, and on and on.  

 

As it happens, the BLM protests were unique in that they didn't correlate with a significant net increase in disease burden: 

 

Quote

In fact, researchers determined that social distancing behaviors actually went up after the protests -- as people tried to avoid the protests altogether. But obviously, these demonstrations caused a decrease in social distancing among actual protesters.

"Our findings suggest that any direct decrease in social distancing among the subset of the population participating in the protests is more than offset by increasing social distancing behavior among others who may choose to shelter-at-home and circumvent public places while the protests are underway," the report reads.

 

It's still possible that protests may have caused an increase in the spread of the virus among those who attended protests, according to the report.

 

That outcome certainly wasn't expected beforehand, so yes, from a public health standpoint protests were ill-advised, even though many protesters chose to wear masks.

 

18 hours ago, Rougarou said:

I'm amongst many that do the same thing. 

 

That's kind of been my point: there's a surfeit of people in the US who don't seem to feel a duty of care toward anyone but themselves, and it's getting people killed.

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Rougarou
15 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Japan definitely has been testing less than the US:

 

image.png.980d84983ffb468e07b2c5ee8998c96d.png

 

 

The question is why.  Shortages of testing resources is one possible reason for low testing numbers.  Another possible reason is that few people are coming into the doc's office and asking to be tested.

 

Japan definitely did have testing shortages early on, but by late May they were meeting their daily testing goals.  At this point, if the tests-per-day figure is low, it's more likely because few people are asking to be tested.  Overall, Japan is testing enough people so that for every person who tests positive, 24.6 other people test negative whereas the ratio is about 1:11.5 here in the US:

 

15 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

image.png.753bc99519970d93d475799d29b64a99.png

 

So either Japan is encouraging people with extremely mild symptoms to get tested (because they've got plenty of tests), or the US needs to get even more people to come in and get tested so we can find more of the positive cases that are still out there and get them to self-quarantine before they spread it to others.

 

I'm not aware of any testing shortages in Japan now (mid-July).  At this point the current US-Japan disparity in new cases per day is staggering:

 

image.png.5d83ab462a00bde9c2175ba8ef28cfdf.png

 

If testing shortages in Japan accounted for even a tiny portion of this difference, it would be newsworthy.  

 

Down here, the mass testing is open whether you have symptoms or don't have symptoms, mebbee, the Japanese are only testing higher symptomatic people,.....I dunno.  I referenced above thread where my county was up a few numbers and then downgraded due to errors on the testing, out of the millions of tests done within the U. S. how many are false (oh, but testing verification is so much better).

 

15 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

A couple of months ago was early May.  The official request for everybody in Japan to wear masks didn't go out until May 4.  Here's the stats from May 5:

 

image.thumb.png.457ba3d1bd2efbbc38054ee480f8f877.png

 

 

You really should look at rush hour now, if you really think that "ALL" are complying, you'd be mistaken, it's a large chunk wearing but there are a surprising many that aren't. 

 

Additionally, how does one get the above figures for "wearing" masks, how does one get a percentage of a country for who is wearing what,.....that's like asking what percentage is wearing underwear.

 

15 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

It wasn't my intention to post an exhaustive list of events that could lead to an increase in disease burden.  The examples I gave were fresh in my mind because they were local and recent.  If I wanted to be more comprehensive, yes, I would have included the BLM protests, along with the anti-mask protests that happened in April in several state capitals, people who insist on going to packed churches and beaches, frat parties, and on and on.  

 

As it happens, the BLM protests were unique in that they didn't correlate with a significant net increase in disease burden: 

 

"In fact, researchers determined that social distancing behaviors actually went up after the protests -- as people tried to avoid the protests altogether. But obviously, these demonstrations caused a decrease in social distancing among actual protesters.

"Our findings suggest that any direct decrease in social distancing among the subset of the population participating in the protests is more than offset by increasing social distancing behavior among others who may choose to shelter-at-home and circumvent public places while the protests are underway," the report reads."
 
What I gather from this is that those that "avoided" the protest have not shown an increase, but wait,....time will tell if the actual protesters or rioters will actually come down with it.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

That's kind of been my point: there's a surfeit of people in the US who don't seem to feel a duty of care toward anyone but themselves, and it's getting people killed.

 

 

It is getting people killed, check the French 

 

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

You really should look at rush hour now, if you really think that "ALL" are complying, you'd be mistaken, it's a large chunk wearing but there are a surprising many that aren't.

 

Fair enough; I withdraw my claim of universal mask adoption in Japan.  I will check out the Shibuya-cam tonight (when it'll be tomorrow morning's rush hour there).

 

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

Additionally, how does one get the above figures for "wearing" masks, how does one get a percentage of a country for who is wearing what

 

I looked at reference #197 on the table I posted.  It's just a survey, one of many asking people what they're doing to avoid COVID.  

 

image.png.52a6a572200518e0928870f95b18a5c8.png

 

 

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

...that's like asking what percentage is wearing underwear.

 

If only 63% of Americans are wearing underwear, then things are far worse than I thought.

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