R1200GS Blown Engine Warranty Woes

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

I took my bike with 2200 miles on it into Ventura BMW on March 30 to have a cracked top case replaced under warranty, which they did. They said the bike didn’t sound right and said I should not ride it home. It showed no error codes (low oil pressure or high temperature) in the computer. They checked the valve adjustment and cam chain tensioner and the noise was still there. It is still at the dealer (4 weeks later) and they have not yet given me a quote on the repair, but they said it needed a new right side cylinder and piston, and perhaps more parts. They say it is not covered under warranty.

 

Here is a history of the bike. I bought it with 1200 miles on it (from a dentist who was selling the bike because he hurt himself surfing and would not be able to ride the bike for a long time) and I noticed the oil was below the window when I got it home. I added ¾ of a quart to bring it up to the top of the window. This means it was about 7 oz. low which is about 5% of oil capacity. The 600 mile service had been done at 528 miles at Ventura BMW. At 1800 miles I was riding down the freeway and the engine died, and when I pulled over I smelled smoke. I checked the oil at that time, the level was OK, so I restarted the bike and thought it sounded funny, but I had just put on an Aeroflow windshield that day so the wind noise had dropped way down making the engine noise much more noticeable. I thought that the funny engine noise at the time was just the lack of wind noise. I reported all this to the dealer.

 

Therefore, according to BMW, the bike can normally burn enough oil in 700 miles to destroy the engine without any indication of low oil pressure. It looks like this low oil can also cause a problem to occur 600 miles after the oil was restored to its normal level. I find this hard to believe. Does anyone have a reasonable mechanical explanation of how this could happen? Will low oil cause some parts to seize up and not others? Anybody had luck fighting warranty battles like this?

 

Here are 5 other cases of similar right cylinder damage that were not attributed to low oil level. It looks like there is another low probability but high consequence defect in R1200GS design or manufacture, or these other cases, which were covered under warranty, were also due to low oil and those owners had the sense not to mention that the oil was ever below the window.

 

Here are links to stories of very similar problem which I sent to the dealer:

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95298&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post643774

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90377&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74543&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45124

 

 

Moral to the story:

If BMW’s claim is true, you better always carry oil with you and check your oil level every time you stop because in a long days ride (700 miles) you could ruin the engine.

[Satguy]

1. Make sure you see all the used parts that have been replaced. The dealer should provide these to you IF you are paying for the repair. If under warranty, parts MAY need to be kept at the dealer for BMW to inspect. What is the nature of the damage to the parts being replaced?? Lack of oil pressure will cause obvious damage to the piston and cylinder and probably the head/valve train too.

 

2. Low oil level does not mean low oil pressure.... two different things but certainly an extreme case of low oil level can lead to no oil pressure. The engine holds approx. 3.8 litres of oil which means that being 500 ml low is not going to cause a loss of oil pressure.

 

I think we need more information about the condition of the engine before suggesting much more. Pictures of the old parts would be great.

 

Hope it all works out OK

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

I haven't a chance to see any parts yet. They did unfortunately, drain the oil without saving any, so that bit of evidence is gone.

[Kbasa]

Jeez, dude. You get around.

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

Pardon the cross posting, I'm trying to pick a lot of peoples brains.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I'd suggest you get an attorney involved in this process as soon as possible. Absent proof that the motor was operated WITHOUT oil, they can't just deny a warranty claim. Given the low milage on the bike, it is pretty obvious that defective material/workmanship applies here.

 

You need to document EVERYTHING and demand their reasons for denying you the warranty claim in writing. It may extend the process and I would think you would want to bring the bike to a different dealer for resolution here as once you create an adversary situation with this one, they won't be motivated to quickly resolve your problem.

 

I'd also get in touch with BMW NA about this expressing your concerns and dis-satisfaction with the current dealer.

[q2bruiser]

Absent proof that the motor was operated WITHOUT oil, they can't just deny a warranty claim.

 

You are applying logic to a situation where money is involved. Denying a claim can be given for any reason whatsoever. Does not mean it is right to do it, but it has and does happen.

 

James

[DEF]

I took my bike with 2200 miles on it into Ventura BMW on March 30 to have a cracked top case replaced under warranty, which they did. They said the bike didn’t sound right and said I should not ride it home. It showed no error codes (low oil pressure or high temperature) in the computer. They checked the valve adjustment and cam chain tensioner and the noise was still there. It is still at the dealer (4 weeks later) and they have not yet given me a quote on the repair, but they said it needed a new right side cylinder and piston, and perhaps more parts. They say it is not covered under warranty.

 

Here is a history of the bike. I bought it with 1200 miles on it (from a dentist who was selling the bike because he hurt himself surfing and would not be able to ride the bike for a long time) and I noticed the oil was below the window when I got it home. I added ¾ of a quart to bring it up to the top of the window. This means it was about 7 oz. low which is about 5% of oil capacity. The 600 mile service had been done at 528 miles at Ventura BMW. At 1800 miles I was riding down the freeway and the engine died, and when I pulled over I smelled smoke. I checked the oil at that time, the level was OK, so I restarted the bike and thought it sounded funny, but I had just put on an Aeroflow windshield that day so the wind noise had dropped way down making the engine noise much more noticeable. I thought that the funny engine noise at the time was just the lack of wind noise. I reported all this to the dealer.

 

Therefore, according to BMW, the bike can normally burn enough oil in 700 miles to destroy the engine without any indication of low oil pressure. It looks like this low oil can also cause a problem to occur 600 miles after the oil was restored to its normal level. I find this hard to believe. Does anyone have a reasonable mechanical explanation of how this could happen? Will low oil cause some parts to seize up and not others? Anybody had luck fighting warranty battles like this?

 

Here are 5 other cases of similar right cylinder damage that were not attributed to low oil level. It looks like there is another low probability but high consequence defect in R1200GS design or manufacture, or these other cases, which were covered under warranty, were also due to low oil and those owners had the sense not to mention that the oil was ever below the window.

 

Here are links to stories of very similar problem which I sent to the dealer:

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95298&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post643774

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90377&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74543&highlight=warranty+noise

 

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45124

 

 

Moral to the story:

If BMW’s claim is true, you better always carry oil with you and check your oil level every time you stop because in a long days ride (700 miles) you could ruin the engine.

 

I agree with others here. My comments;

 

1- BMW makes every effort (and some dealers are even more aggressive) at denying warranty claims.

2- Engine oil would have to be about 2 quarts low to do extreme damage. However, remember, your oil also cools your engine.

3- If the dealer discarded the oil without proper inspection and evaluation of the oil, he did a great disservice to you and your engine by discarding valuable evidence that could have provided valuable diagnosis information. But, I would ask the pregnant question, “How much oil did you drain from my busted engine”? If you get something less than believable, I think you have ‘em where you want ‘em. Oh and BTW, “What viscosity and grade of oil did you find in my engine? Was it according to BMW specifications?”…another question for the dealer.

4- You likely have the law on your side and the warranty is your friend.

5- Remember, if you do what is called for in the manual and keep your oil where it belongs and don’t abuse the bike and don’t crash and have the dealer perform the early service, you have lived up to your part of the owner’s requirements. Now, it is up to the dealer to step up and come to your aid. Remind them of that. If they are reputable, they’ll help the customer.

[JayW]

It is absoulutely unacceptable for an engine this new to fail. The bike was serviced by a dealer exactly as recommended by the manufacturer. You have a solid legal case here and I would ask to speak to the regional service rep if I were you. The other examples you cite are interesting, but should not be a big part of making your case.

 

If you pursue this, it will likely eventually turn out in your favor. Be firm, and resolute, but don't lose control of your emotions in dealing with those who can help get this resolved.

 

Good luck.

 

Jay

[Deans BMW]

1- BMW makes every effort (and some dealers are even more aggressive) at denying warranty claims.

 

Not true in the least, dealers are paid full retail for parts and their full labor rate for warrenty work, so no incentive to not do warrenty work. BMW with the introduction of the R1200GS willingly authorize legitimate , notice I said legitimate warrenty work. I have a gut feeling that there is more to this story than meets the eye, perhaps the origional owner of the bike did something wrong which resulted in selling the bike with such low mileage. A proper engine tear down with an experienced tech can easily determine the cause of faliure with the answer as to wheather it is warrantable or not.

 

We would routinely run racing R1100S engines with only 3 Qts of 30W oil to reduce internal windage and friction losses. Not real good for the engines and they ran hot, but did not fail.

[Bruce C]

Your problem might not have originated from low oil level at all! The PO might have had a tip-over with the engine running and knew that there was no oil pressure in the engine for a time.

The dealer should be able to see scoring and heat damage when it's apart.

Bruce C

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

Your problem might not have originated from low oil level at all! The PO might have had a tip-over with the engine running and knew that there was no oil pressure in the engine for a time.

The dealer should be able to see scoring and heat damage when it's apart.

Bruce C

 

This is an interesting theory. If this were the case wouldn't the computer register a low oil pressure fault from when this happened? I don't think the PO is dumping a bike he thought had a problem. I know him and he has a very good reputation. I also saw no evidence of a tipover.

 

I think they see scoring and heat damage, but the question is what caused it. I recently talked to the PO and he brought up a relevant fact I had forgotten. When I bought the bike I checked the oil before I started it and rode it home. It looks like I misread the oil level when I got the bike home, perhaps due to oil that hadn't drained from the oil cooler or ?? and that is why it looked low then.

[LaSelvaRider]

I have been a warranty administrator at GM for 15 years and have been to all the training the maunfactuer has to offer. I am in the top 5% in the country at my job. The manufatuer is REQUIRED to prove that the failure is not a manufactuer defect. The burden of proof is on them... The oil that they threw away is to your benifit as now there is no proof. Stand your ground in a polite way and make them prove it. Generally speaking an oil starvation failure will show up as failure of a component that is the furthest away from the oil pump or however BMW uses to push the oil through the motor.

Remember the burden of proof is on them!!!!

I think BMW is just pissed that you did not buy the vehicle from them and you bought it from a private party. The manufactuer looks at that very hard and feels that they don't owe you anaything... GOOD LUCK!!!!

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

Too bad you work for GM instead of BMW.

[RFW]

Therefore, according to BMW, the bike can normally burn enough oil in 700 miles to destroy the engine without any indication of low oil pressure.

This is total BS.

 

As long as there is oil pressure, no damage will occur, at least not in the short term. You have to burn a couple of liters of oil before the level gets so low that there is no longer an uninterrupted supply of oil to pump (i.e. the pump starts sucking air with the oil). I certainly hope that BMW isn't trying to tell you that it is normal to burn a couple of liters of oil in 600 miles!!

 

All that happens when the oil level starts to get low, is that oil temperature start to rise. This may be a long term problem for the motor, but "destroy the motor without any indication of low oil pressure"??? RUBBISH!

 

Bob.

[H C Edwards]

Mine was one of the ones you linked to in your post. It was not low on oil when the right side failed. Piston, rings, and right cylinder were all replaced under warranty. It's been fine since, although I've only put 600 miles on it since they rebuilt it. I have to take it back so they can retorque the heads, and without thinking I put 600 miles on it before calling the dealer. They couldn't get me in for a month (now two weeks). No problem, I'm just riding the RT. But I should have planned ahead better.

Good luck. No way I'd accept the failure not being covered by warranty.

[GelandeStrasseWayne]

Mine was one of the ones you linked to in your post. It was not low on oil when the right side failed. Piston, rings, and right cylinder were all replaced under warranty.

 

Thanks for the update. Did they have any explanation for why it failed?

[H C Edwards]

No. They thought the Nikasil lining had come off the cylinder wall, and ruined the piston and ring. They showed it to me. I just glanced at it, since I'm not an engine failure expert. Scores and scuff marks on one part of the cylinder wall, and on top of the piston.