So you think electric bikes are boring ?

[chrisolson]

 

More ...

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/19/21144093/zero-srs-electric-motorcycle-bike-speed-mile-range-photos-price

[fourteenfour]

I doubt many thing they are boring, they just do not have real world practical range and  most are still built on obsolete technology like every single bike Zero sells; the Livewire falls into this too.

 

So let me list you the faults; I did test ride a SR/F and while impressive it isn't worth 23k OTD at all. I don't need a bar/boulevard bike.

 

• Air cooled batteries
• Air cooled motors
• Range is always measured as city, highway at real speeds can be half
• The less fairing the less efficient
• Most do not offer luggage options
• Limited charging methods or inconsistent options.
• Very expensive for what they are

The first two points are very important, air cooled packs can get too warm to charge meaning getting to the charger is the first step and then having to wait till the pack cools enough to take a charge. Zero will also reduce power when it gets too warm which isn't all that hard to do if you do any spirited riding in warm weather; just 80F+ will do. Then comes the longevity issue that air cooled packs have, do you remember the early Nissan Leaf?  Like I said I drove one and considered it for a brief period but the salesman and I went over my "fun route" that I like to use on occasion and figured that while less than a hundred miles that since it was a combination of 45 to 65mph speed roads which encourage spirited riding that I would be best waiting until the option range tank came out because it would not complete the run on a charge.

 

Now, wrap an EV motorcycle in the 96 RT type fairing with some tweaks as you don't need all the air flow through the center or just make an E1 on a K1 type layout and you are on the way to a useful EV bike. However in each case it needs to be liquid cooled for both battery life and efficiency. Using the Zero as an example, they come with a 14.4 kwh main battery which offers 161 city range, add the power tank and it goes to 223 CITY and adds I think forty pounds. So figure 50 miles for forty pounds of battery; not a great number but we can play with it; and we can easily fit a decent range in a full dress tour bike as it would probably carry 24+ kWh of batteries.

 

So they are not boring, just not practical or using technology that is ideal.

 

 

 

edit: oh, the SR/F already has shown to have issues with its electronics so I would not be quick to get one for that reason alone, seriously people have had trouble with it when it gets wet because a few modules were not properly protected from the elements and more than one OTA has bricked a few bikes.

[Antimatter]

I test rode a Zero 'S' last year.  Great fun, and the lack of engine vibration made front wheel feedback amazing.  As a commuter, I think an electric would be awesome, but I'm just not ready to commit to one because of the range limitations.  If a manufacturer could give me 100 miles with a 15 minute recharge time, that bike would be up for serious consideration.  I could do with not having to change oil or adjust valves. 

[RTinNC]

The EV's are not yet ready for a prime time touring audience as the RT's riders but have to believe the EV's are coming.   They are getting better and nicer and cheaper.   Harley will continue to improve the Livewire and I suspect expand the range.   The looks of the new electric motorcycles is improving with every iteration.  Not yet something that appeals to me but who knows what the future holds.   And the bigger issue with Ev's in general is the need for the public to transition and embrace the whole EV concept.  We are a country built on the gasoline engine cars and bikes and that transition will be slow. 

[chrisolson]

5 hours ago, CommuterChris said:

So let me list you the faults; I did test ride a SR/F and while impressive it isn't worth 23k OTD at all.

 

The transition from automobile to the smaller platform of a motorcycle does involve many challenges and most you've listed are quite valid, particularly in the area of managing heat.  At the present time , totally air cooled electric systems would not be a great choice in the southwest in the summer.

 

 

5 hours ago, CommuterChris said:

I don't need a bar/boulevard bike.

To fault them for not having touring range or luggage is logical, but there is a use case for them.  A "local" mileage scenario like commuting or around town transportation ...and for that purpose I think they work ... and at least the SRS looks nice

 

But in the end, as you point out,  heat management, charging and overall software packaging need to be addressed AND the cost severely reduced to be more than an expensive niche toy.

[RPG]

The free market will (and should) determine whether its viable.

 

The extremely low range is my major concern as I commute 120 miles/day.

[Antimatter]

20 hours ago, RPG said:

The free market will (and should) determine whether its viable.

 

The extremely low range is my major concern as I commute 120 miles/day.

Er, no offense, but the free market rarely determines these things, both in the modern world and historically.  What we here in America call the 'free market' is actually a collection of venture capital, government subsidies, and private equity.  What Zero needs to do is figure out a way to make their motorcycles instrumental in the Global War On Terror, then they'll be able to suck up enough government cash to sell them for $5k each.

[Tpoppa]

The electric bikes are getting better.  The shortcomings of the motorcycles have already been mentioned.

 

The bigger problem that the infrastructure just isn't there.  Infrastructure and battery tech needs another 10 years to develop and evolve before EVs will be a viable option for a meaningful number of motorists.  If charging time can't be significantly reduced, perhaps standardized batteries that can be "hot swapped" would be an option.

 

My first foray in electric will probably be a lawnmower.

 

 

 

[6speedTi]

Two things about motorcycle safety on the road. Be seen and heard. Soooooo for all the ones that actually test rode one how loud or how much sound do they make on the road compared to a normal gasoline burning engine?

If you can't be heard on the road and it's like a whisper buzzing by then your just looking to get hit. 

 

[Bill_Walker]

Here's your real "not boring" electric bike.  Just a little more than the Zero, but more capable.  The Ego+ has over 100 miles highway range, and it has DC Fast Charging, unlike the Zero.

https://www.energicamotorusa.com/electric-motorcycle-energica-ego/

 

Charging infrastructure is improving rapidly (check out https://www.plugshare.com to find chargers in your area), but for road trips, it's still best if you own a Tesla (they have their own charging network of "Supercharger" fast chargers).  For normal use with cars, most people charge at home or at work and never need to charge anywhere else.  But for recreational MC riding, a 125-250 mile day trip is pretty common, and the electric MCs just can't yet deliver that without a stop to recharge.  DC Fast Charging (which the Zero doesn't offer) will get you an 80-90% charge in the time it takes to have a coffee break, but a Level 2 charge can take hours.

One of our members, @ESokoloff, commutes in LA on a Zero S, IIRC.  And for commuting, they work well.  But they're very expensive.  For a car, total cost of ownership, despite a higher initial price, often comes down in favor of an EV, due to cheap "fuel" and low maintenance costs, but I don't know whether that pencils out for a bike.

 

For most people, once they've driven an EV, they don't want to go back.  They're smoother, quieter, have huge torque and rapid acceleration, and there are no more stops in smelly, dirty gas stations.  My wife is approaching the end of the lease of her second Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid, and won't consider another car that doesn't plug in.  I previously leased a BMW i3 EV with gasoline range extender.  That car was marginal in hilly San Diego running on the range extender, so I used a DC Fast Charging station once in order to avoid running it.  By the time I used a restroom and had a coffee, it had plenty of charge to get home.  I currently have a Chevy Volt.  The Volt will go about 50 miles as an EV before running the engine.  I went 4500 miles between fill-ups on my last tank of gas, and it took 7.5 gallons.  Most days, I don't use any gas.

[TEWKS]

That's a pretty good looking electric bike right there. The near vertical shock is a throwback for sure. 

[Marty Hill]

On 2/21/2020 at 3:58 PM, 6speedTi said:

Two things about motorcycle safety on the road. Be seen and heard. Soooooo for all the ones that actually test rode one how loud or how much sound do they make on the road compared to a normal gasoline burning engine?

If you can't be heard on the road and it's like a whisper buzzing by then your just looking to get hit. 

 

I must be very lucky.  No noise in 240,000 miles and never hit.  It must be a miracle.

[6speedTi]

1 hour ago, Marty Hill said:

I must be very lucky.  No noise in 240,000 miles and never hit.  It must be a miracle.

Yes you are.

[mrduck]

The local HD shop held a roll out for the Livewire so went for a look.........after the few “ real bikers” left, I took a closer look. Noticed the Brembo brakes and fully adjustable Showas and asked the young tech about those and if the electric nanny control system is “adjustable”, which got his full attention! So now he discreetly tells me about the HD training he attended.......some engineer there figured out a way to bypass some things.....now it’s dial a wheelie, front stoppies, and big smoking tire burnouts, much to the chagrin of the HD  brass when they heard of what they did!

I would have paid to see that!

They need to fix the ugly look,  I wish them well, this electric bike thing is coming.

 

Don J

[RPG]

On 2/21/2020 at 10:09 AM, Antimatter said:

Er, no offense, but the free market rarely determines these things, both in the modern world and historically.  What we here in America call the 'free market' is actually a collection of venture capital, government subsidies, and private equity.  What Zero needs to do is figure out a way to make their motorcycles instrumental in the Global War On Terror, then they'll be able to suck up enough government cash to sell them for $5k each.

No offense taken and I concede your point concerning venture capital, subsidies and private equity.

[Ponch]

Yes

[fourteenfour]

On 2/21/2020 at 3:58 PM, 6speedTi said:

Two things about motorcycle safety on the road. Be seen and heard. Soooooo for all the ones that actually test rode one how loud or how much sound do they make on the road compared to a normal gasoline burning engine?

If you can't be heard on the road and it's like a whisper buzzing by then your just looking to get hit. 

 

 

oh please, unless you are running an obnoxious exhaust many people will never hear if their windows are closed let alone if they are blasting music. Road noise wise it has a distinctive whine/etc   Sample Zero EV noise   that is inoffensive but you can hear it off bike. It probably has a lot to do with their choice in motor technology. My Tesla model 3 is near silent but you can detect the motor if you listen closely but I do know in parking lots people have not heard my car.

 

On the electric mower front, my father gifted me a Greenworks 60V push mower; with a metal deck it so silly light compared to a gas mower you would never need self propelled. for a 12k sq ft lawn I need two batteries to get the yard done and you cannot let it get to high else you need one pass at a higher setting. The real treat is not needing ear plugs or head phones. You can have a conversation with people while mowing.  I kept a gas mower now outside for scalping duties and similar the few times a year I need it.

[Marty Hill]

I almost feel sorry for people who think you need loud noise, then I laugh thinking they must be joking.

[6speedTi]

2 hours ago, CommuterChris said:

 

oh please, unless you are running an obnoxious exhaust many people will never hear if their windows are closed let alone if they are blasting music. Road noise wise it has a distinctive whine/etc   Sample Zero EV noise   that is inoffensive but you can hear it off bike. It probably has a lot to do with their choice in motor technology. My Tesla model 3 is near silent but you can detect the motor if you listen closely but I do know in parking lots people have not heard my car.

 

On the electric mower front, my father gifted me a Greenworks 60V push mower; with a metal deck it so silly light compared to a gas mower you would never need self propelled. for a 12k sq ft lawn I need two batteries to get the yard done and you cannot let it get to high else you need one pass at a higher setting. The real treat is not needing ear plugs or head phones. You can have a conversation with people while mowing.  I kept a gas mower now outside for scalping duties and similar the few times a year I need it.

Come down to South Florida and ride your whisper electric motorcycle on the streets and highways. That's the kind of riding I'm talking about where people have poor driving skills and no common sense. Riding in the country suburbs and rural areas is no comparison to the daily stupidity I have to deal with.

Many riders swap out their exhaust and add more lights or upgrade to brighter ones as a safety measure. Loud pipes, loud horns and bright lights will save your butt down in my neck of the woods. Too bad it's not all hunky dory here like it is in your neck of the woods. That would be ideal and less stressful for me.

[6speedTi]

8 minutes ago, Marty Hill said:

I almost feel sorry for people who think you need loud noise, then I laugh thinking they must be joking.

Come on down to the crazy streets of south Florida. You'll see it my way real fast. 

[Marty Hill]

I'm from Miami.  Moved to Atlanta a few years ago.  Am very familiar with Miami seeming like being on another planet.