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Delfiki

'04 R1150R Not Starting

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Delfiki

Hello all!

 

I've posted in another r1150r forum but it doesn't seem to have much traffic so I'm posting here after I found people here are just as helpful.

 

I picked up an '04 R1150R with 28k miles for 2k. It is technically non-running. I can put the key in, hit the ignition switch, and the motor cranks over but no fire. However, I can hit the air intake with some starter fluid and it roars to life. I'm able to ride it like there's no problem once its up and running. The main problem is that it seems the motor won't fire up. Previous owner had plenty of maintenance items to hand off (oil filters, head gaskets, documentation of maintenance (when tires were last changed, a replaced stick coil + date, etc). Also came with two different windshields and a tail bag. Unfortunately no side cases which I need to hunt down. Anyways, I didn't feel too bad about picking it up. It's fairly clean.

 

Here's some stuff I've checked out:

 

  • ABS removal is on my list. I'll probably tackle that next once the bike is reliably starting.
  • Had an issue with the starter doing weird grindy noises. Had the bike on a trickle charger and brought the battery up to adequate power. It cranks over fine. No weird starter sound or clock speed issues. I guess the weak battery made the starter do weird things. On a positive note, my starter sounds fine. lol
  • I checked the sidestand switch and it looks fine. Wires are all together. If the bike is on (engine running) and in neutral, it stays running with the stand out. When I kick it into first with the side stand out, engine shuts off. Leads me to think the switch is working as intended.
  • Turning the key and turning the ignition switch to the middle 'on' position causes the fuel pump to prime for a few seconds. With the engine off but power on, I put the bike in 1st gear and try to spin the rear tire by hand. I can hear it whine for a split second.
  • Pulled the mototronic fuse and left it out for a good 10 minutes. Tried to start, no dice. Repeated, pulled the fuse, then tried the 'reset' steps. Turned key to 'on', opened and closed throttle twice, switched off key. Tried to start, no dice.
  • Found the amazon 'hack' to get stick coils for dirt cheap, so I went ahead and ordered two new ones. Two coils for a whole $100 is hard to pass up. Downside, takes  a month to get delivered since it's coming from Germany.
  • I do need to look up the wiring loom issue at the neck with the tie wraps, but I saw a small bunch of cables that were exposed and had a tiny wrap on it on the left side. Nothing seemed shorted.

 

Anyone think maybe I have a stick coil or fuel pump issue? What are some other things I can check out before I just start replacing maintenance parts?

Is it worth it to fork out the cash for a GS-911 or the MotoScan? Would it immediately tell me whats wrong with the bike if I had access to one?

 

Thanks everyone for your help!

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dirtrider
26 minutes ago, Delfiki said:

Hello all!

 

I've posted in another r1150r forum but it doesn't seem to have much traffic so I'm posting here after I found people here are just as helpful.

 

I picked up an '04 R1150R with 28k miles for 2k. It is technically non-running. I can put the key in, hit the ignition switch, and the motor cranks over but no fire. However, I can hit the air intake with some starter fluid and it roars to life. I'm able to ride it like there's no problem once its up and running. The main problem is that it seems the motor won't fire up. Previous owner had plenty of maintenance items to hand off (oil filters, head gaskets, documentation of maintenance (when tires were last changed, a replaced stick coil + date, etc). Also came with two different windshields and a tail bag. Unfortunately no side cases which I need to hunt down. Anyways, I didn't feel too bad about picking it up. It's fairly clean.

 

Here's some stuff I've checked out:

 

  • ABS removal is on my list. I'll probably tackle that next once the bike is reliably starting.
  • Had an issue with the starter doing weird grindy noises. Had the bike on a trickle charger and brought the battery up to adequate power. It cranks over fine. No weird starter sound or clock speed issues. I guess the weak battery made the starter do weird things. On a positive note, my starter sounds fine. lol
  • I checked the sidestand switch and it looks fine. Wires are all together. If the bike is on (engine running) and in neutral, it stays running with the stand out. When I kick it into first with the side stand out, engine shuts off. Leads me to think the switch is working as intended.
  • Turning the key and turning the ignition switch to the middle 'on' position causes the fuel pump to prime for a few seconds. With the engine off but power on, I put the bike in 1st gear and try to spin the rear tire by hand. I can hear it whine for a split second.
  • Pulled the mototronic fuse and left it out for a good 10 minutes. Tried to start, no dice. Repeated, pulled the fuse, then tried the 'reset' steps. Turned key to 'on', opened and closed throttle twice, switched off key. Tried to start, no dice.
  • Found the amazon 'hack' to get stick coils for dirt cheap, so I went ahead and ordered two new ones. Two coils for a whole $100 is hard to pass up. Downside, takes  a month to get delivered since it's coming from Germany.
  • I do need to look up the wiring loom issue at the neck with the tie wraps, but I saw a small bunch of cables that were exposed and had a tiny wrap on it on the left side. Nothing seemed shorted.

 

Anyone think maybe I have a stick coil or fuel pump issue? What are some other things I can check out before I just start replacing maintenance parts?

Is it worth it to fork out the cash for a GS-911 or the MotoScan? Would it immediately tell me whats wrong with the bike if I had access to one?

 

Thanks everyone for your help!

 

Evening  Delfiki

 

There are a lot of possibilities but before we get into a long & maybe side tracked diagnosis we need you to try something that might define the direction to look in.

 

Next cold start try holding the (throttle) twist grip at about 1/4 open, then try starting with the throttle held there. 

 

 

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Delfiki
6 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening  Delfiki

 

There are a lot of possibilities but before we get into a long & maybe side tracked diagnosis we need you to try something that might define the direction to look in.

 

Next cold start try holding the (throttle) twist grip at about 1/4 open, then try starting with the throttle held there. 

 

 

 

Hi there dirtrider!

 

I will do this tomorrow and take a video for reference. What will this determine?

 

Thanks!

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Doctare

Hi Delfiki

I have an R1100RT and have done work on the fuel system from time to time. 

You say it starts and runs if you spray starter fluid into the air intake and that it continues to run until a cold start.

I'm thinking the fuel pump is not pressurizing the fuel system enough either because the pump is failing or the fuel filter is clogging.

To test this try turning it on and off a few (4-8) times before starting.  This will allow the fuel pump to prime the system with more than enough pressure.

If it starts then I would look at the fuel filter first and the pump second. 

I found this solution when I changed pumps and lines (etc) and the normal priming was not enough to pressurize the empty lines.

I would also check the fuel lines for kinks etc.

 

Good luck.

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, Delfiki said:

 

Hi there dirtrider!

 

I will do this tomorrow and take a video for reference. What will this determine?

 

Thanks!

 

Morning  Delfiki

 

No need for video as all we need to know is (if) doing that improves starting.

 

That will help us determine if  the engine is capable of starting on it's own given more air & fuel during engine cranking.

 

We need to determine if we need to look at the engine sensors & Motronic related areas, or look into lower spark plugs during cold start, or look into the fuel system fuel flow/pressure system (run a basic fuel return flow test). 

 

 

 

 

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Delfiki
22 hours ago, Doctare said:

Hi Delfiki

I have an R1100RT and have done work on the fuel system from time to time. 

You say it starts and runs if you spray starter fluid into the air intake and that it continues to run until a cold start.

I'm thinking the fuel pump is not pressurizing the fuel system enough either because the pump is failing or the fuel filter is clogging.

To test this try turning it on and off a few (4-8) times before starting.  This will allow the fuel pump to prime the system with more than enough pressure.

If it starts then I would look at the fuel filter first and the pump second. 

I found this solution when I changed pumps and lines (etc) and the normal priming was not enough to pressurize the empty lines.

I would also check the fuel lines for kinks etc.

 

Good luck.

 

15 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning  Delfiki

 

No need for video as all we need to know is (if) doing that improves starting.

 

That will help us determine if  the engine is capable of starting on it's own given more air & fuel during engine cranking.

 

We need to determine if we need to look at the engine sensors & Motronic related areas, or look into lower spark plugs during cold start, or look into the fuel system fuel flow/pressure system (run a basic fuel return flow test). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Doctare and dirtrider,

Unfortunately no luck on starting with the throttle open 1/4 of the way or more, and no dice on priming the fuel system. I recorded it just to verify this is what the pump is supposed to sound like: Cold Start Crank

 

I ended up picking up a bluetooth obd2 connector and obd2 to 10pin cable to use the motoscan app. Upon scanning, It shows 2 error codes for the Hall Effect sensor. Quick google search tells me the codes are there because the bike wasn't on. I cleared the error codes, tried to fire up the bike but no dice. Here's the error code:

 

e6Wn845.jpg

 

Also, using this app I was able to prime the fuel system (I can turn on the fuel pump actuator) which is kind of cool. Even with a few seconds of priming, didn't kick on.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

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dirtrider
9 hours ago, Delfiki said:

 

 

 

Hey Doctare and dirtrider,

Unfortunately no luck on starting with the throttle open 1/4 of the way or more, and no dice on priming the fuel system. I recorded it just to verify this is what the pump is supposed to sound like: Cold Start Crank

 

I ended up picking up a bluetooth obd2 connector and obd2 to 10pin cable to use the motoscan app. Upon scanning, It shows 2 error codes for the Hall Effect sensor. Quick google search tells me the codes are there because the bike wasn't on. I cleared the error codes, tried to fire up the bike but no dice. Here's the error code:

 

e6Wn845.jpg

 

Also, using this app I was able to prime the fuel system (I can turn on the fuel pump actuator) which is kind of cool. Even with a few seconds of priming, didn't kick on.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

Morning Delfiki

 

You don't need to post a lot of pictures for things that are easily explained. Extra pictures just make the thread much longer & more difficult to scroll back to previous posts for verification.  

 

On your not starting cold. If holding the throttle open while cranking didn't help then we next need to verify pre-cranking & engine-cranking fuel pressure & flow.

 

Basically BMW fuel injected boxer bikes have a built in fuel pressure tester--Your bike has an inline fuel pressure regulator that maintains fuel pressure in the fuel manifolds. What that fuel pressure regulator does is FORCE the fuel pump to reach about 50+ psi before it will allow by-pass fuel to flow back through the return line back into the fuel tank. So-- IF your fuel pump is bad (low pressure output), or if it has an internal fuel system leak, then  it can't reach the required 50+ psi so the pressure regulator won't open and you will have NO return fuel flowing. 

 

 IF your high pressure fuel lines are leaking inside the fuel tank then it can't reach the required 50+psi so the pressure regulator won't open & you will have NO return fuel flowing. 

 

OR-- IF your fuel pump can't pump enough fuel quantity (low output), like restricted filter, or restricted in-tank fuel line, or split in-tank fuel hose, then  it can't reach the required 50+psi so the pressure regulator won't open & you will have NO return fuel flowing. (this is a very informative test)

 

On the other hand (IF) you have  the engine cranking (or fuel pump running) with a decent amount of fuel flowing back through the return fuel line then that means that--- your pump can meet or exceed the 50+psi system supply requirement (PLUS) the supply rate is it at a flow rate above the amount required to start/run the engine at idle. (actually a better test than simply using a fuel pressure gauge)

 

With the engine  cranking, or idling, (or just fuel pump running)   & NO fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --Either the pump can't produce the required 50+psi, or the pump can't produce the required fuel flow (at enough pressure)  to start/run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load.

 

With the engine cranking, or  idling, or just the pump running & (just a little) fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --The pump can produce the required 50+psi BUT the pump can't produce the required fuel flow at that required  50+ psi to run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load. (will start & idle OK but might not pull at higher engine loads). With the engine  idling & a good amount of fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --The pump CAN produce the required 50+psi, AND the pump CAN produce the required fuel flow to run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load at higher speeds.  

 

Your 1150 bike should have quick disconnects on the fuel lines (makes disconnecting easier) but those quick disconnects have check valves inside them  so you will need to either use something to reach in & hold the check valve open or use a suitable extra disconnect to allow free fuel flow. 

 

To do a fuel flow test-- just disconnect the fuel return hose quick disconnect , then on the return hose coming from the rear of bike hold the internal check  valve open & point the hose into a container. Now just run the fuel pump  (or crank engine). 

 

You need to see a pencil sized stream of fuel (or at least some fuel) coming out of that rear return hose.

 

If no fuel flow from the rear fuel return hose with fuel pump running  then you have a basic fuel system problem, like fuel pump issue, or split internal high pressure hose, or ???? (if no return flow then probably not enough fuel flow at pressure to start the engine).

 

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dirtrider

More__

 

If your fuel return test shows good fuel return with the pump running then next use a voltmeter to check the fuel injector supply voltage during cold engine cranking. DC voltmeter between fuel injector green wire & a good clean engine ground. If below 10.5 volts during cold engine cranking then we need to find the reason why.

 

So, do the same voltage  test across the battery posts, again it needs to be  above 10.5 volts during cold engine cranking.

 

Next, we should probably check for injection. (spray pattern & spray amount) during cold cranking. 

 

To do that you can remove a fuel injector with fuel line & wires still hooked up.  Then point the fuel injector into a clear container, then crank the engine.  

 

You need to see a very defined & strong fuel spray with each fuel injector firing (remember that a little fuel spray can look like a lot of fuel sprayed with this test so keep that in mind). 

 

 

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dirtrider

More__

 

You also need to check the lower spark plugs for not being  overnight (oil)  fouled & sparking during cold engine cranking. 

 

Then  check the upper spark plugs for sparking across a 3/16" electrode gap during cold cranking  (use an old spark plug (any known good plug), then open the electrode gap to 3/16" (use an old 3/16" drill bit as a gap gauge). Leave the original spark plugs in the engine for starter drag.

 

Put that (special) spark plug into an upper coil then lay plug on cylinder head & cold  crank engine. You need to see  bluish colored snappy spark during cold cranking.  If weak spark, or orange spark, or erratic spark then you need to find the reason.

 

 

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Delfiki

Hey dirtrider,

 

This is very informative, thank you for the well worded description and information. I do remember that at one point I did check for fuel at the injectors and did not see any spray come out of either side. I will check the fuel return hose like you advised. This is starting to really point to a fuel pump issue, or something in the tank. If I don't get any fuel out of the return hose, I'll take apart the tank/fuel pump assembly to check for any split hoses.

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dirtrider
27 minutes ago, Delfiki said:

Hey dirtrider,

 

This is very informative, thank you for the well worded description and information. I do remember that at one point I did check for fuel at the injectors and did not see any spray come out of either side. I will check the fuel return hose like you advised. This is starting to really point to a fuel pump issue, or something in the tank. If I don't get any fuel out of the return hose, I'll take apart the tank/fuel pump assembly to check for any split hoses.

 

Evening Delfiki

 

The fuel pumps very seldom fail (especially if the engine runs), the common failure inside the fuel tank is the "U" shaped high pressure hose. 

 

That "U" shaped hose can have a small split, or a pin hole, or even a ply separation. 

 

Sometimes the damage is pretty evident & other times it is very difficult to find the problem.  

 

The other thing that can effect older BMW 1100/1150 bikes is the emission evap system failure (that black looking canister on the rear of frame). When the  evap system fails it can suck lots of gooey carbon from the evap canister into the fuel tank through the tank vent hose. (a lot of the old BMW 1100/1150 bikes have already  had the evap can removed then the tank direct-vented to behind the riders R/H foot peg. 

 

Even if your evap system is still good you should cut the bottom of the fuel tank vent hose & brake controller vent hoses to a 45° angle to prevent road water from being sucked into the hoses then into the fuel tank or brake controller.  (BMW service bulletin on this)

 

 

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Delfiki

Good evening dirtrider,

 

So I ran through the gamut of tests as you explained, and now I'm even more confused lol.

 

  • Fuel Flow Test
    • Getting strong pressure from both return line and main line out. 
  • Fuel Injector Voltage
    • I didn't get a voltage reading from the green wire, but I did with the other (yellow?) wire. With key set to -on-, shows 12.4v. Cranking, drops to around 11.5v. I looked up a wiring diagram after posting this and just figured out maybe what I thought was green was probably ground. Whoops. Regardless, it showed powered. 
  • Fuel Injector Spray
    • Getting no spray during crank on either injector
  • Battery Voltage
    • Showed 12.2 after testing everything (last test of the evening)
  • Upper Spark Plug
    • I ordered a spare plug and gapped appropriately. Doesn't seem to spark unless I'm doing this test wrong
  • Lower Spark Plug
    • I'm terrible at figuring out what a spark plug is doing so in this case I had to snap a photo:

JgmItei.jpg

 

  • Evap Canister
    • Looks like I don't have it as there are two vent hoses just handing out behind the right peg.

 

Hope this helps pinpoint what's wrong with this thing. I totally appreciate your help with this!

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Delfiki said:

Good evening dirtrider,

 

So I ran through the gamut of tests as you explained, and now I'm even more confused lol.

 

  • Fuel Flow Test
    • Getting strong pressure from both return line and main line out. 
  • Fuel Injector Voltage
    • I didn't get a voltage reading from the green wire, but I did with the other (yellow?) wire. With key set to -on-, shows 12.4v. Cranking, drops to around 11.5v. I looked up a wiring diagram after posting this and just figured out maybe what I thought was green was probably ground. Whoops. Regardless, it showed powered. 
  • Fuel Injector Spray
    • Getting no spray during crank on either injector
  • Battery Voltage
    • Showed 12.2 after testing everything (last test of the evening)
  • Upper Spark Plug
    • I ordered a spare plug and gapped appropriately. Doesn't seem to spark unless I'm doing this test wrong
  • Lower Spark Plug
    • I'm terrible at figuring out what a spark plug is doing so in this case I had to snap a photo:

 

 

  • Evap Canister
    • Looks like I don't have it as there are two vent hoses just handing out behind the right peg.

 

Hope this helps pinpoint what's wrong with this thing. I totally appreciate your help with this!

 

Morning Delfiki

 

  • Fuel Flow Test
    • Getting strong pressure from both return line and main line out. -- OK, this tells us  the fuel pump & tank internals are working OK.  
    •  
  • Fuel Injector Voltage
    • I didn't get a voltage reading from the green wire, but I did with the other (yellow?) wire. With key set to -on-, shows 12.4v. Cranking, drops to around 11.5v. I looked up a wiring diagram after posting this and just figured out maybe what I thought was green was probably ground. Whoops. Regardless, it showed powered. -- One wire should actually be Green/white (that is 12v power into the injector), the other wire should be Green/yellow & this is Motronic side of the circuit (Motronic should pulse the Green/yellow wire to ground while cranking). It does look like you are getting 12 to the injectors with enough voltage.   (possibly not showing the Motronic side pulsing to ground (so possibly no Motronic injector control). You probably should use a "noid" light for further testing here.
    •  
  • Fuel Injector Spray
    • Getting no spray during crank on either injector -- See above. Looks like no Motronic control.
    •  
  • Battery Voltage
    • Showed 12.2 after testing everything (last test of the evening)-- When was this voltage taken? During engine cranking or just static (no key on & no cranking)?
    •  
  • Upper Spark Plug
    • I ordered a spare plug and gapped appropriately. Doesn't seem to spark unless I'm doing this test wrong-- This might be telling us something you re-run this test (what you found  could be showing a Motronic problem, or a power/ground problem to the Motronic, or showing an HES issue, or ?????
    •  
  • Lower Spark Plug
    • I'm terrible at figuring out what a spark plug is doing so in this case I had to snap a photo: --Lower plug looks normal for a lower plug taken from a just shut-off running engine. Looks mighty dry & not black enough to be taken from a proper fueling cranking  engine (points to no fuel injecting during engine cranking atempts

 

 

  • Evap Canister
    • Looks like I don't have it as there are two vent hoses just handing out behind the right peg.-- You should have the vent hoses behind the right foot peg  with or without the evap canister so having hoses tells us nothing. Do you actually have the black can hanging out like a wart on the right rear of frame? (even if you have one this it isn't your starting problem as you have good fuel flow & pressure).
    •  
  • See more in next post below___

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dirtrider

More__

 

OK, from  what you posted above it looks like no fuel injector control from the Motronic. (this is very unusual for an engine that will actually run even if it takes fuel added to the intakes to get it running).

 

Probably the next best move is to use a "noid" light  to test for the Motronic pulsing the fuel injectors during engine cranking. "Noid" lights are cheap at your local auto parts store, you just need to find one that fits your injector harness plug.  (Google noid light for more info on this).

 

You also need to check/verify that you are, or are not, getting a spark on upper spark plugs during engine cranking. (do this next)

 

It would be a little easier to figure this out IF your engine didn't actually run after spraying in fuel  (but it is what it is so we will deal with it).

 

Strat by verifying  that you have 12v INTO & OUT of fuse #5 during engine cranking (yes or no?) 

 

Unless you are getting an intermittent open in a wire circuit to the Motronic (we might have to test for this later) then your problem is sort-of pointing to a failing HES or Failing Motronic.

 

One thing that comes to mind is-- there was a BMW service bulletin on the HES wire retaining clip (under the plastic engine front belt cover just above the lower pulley). The bulletin pertained to the wire retaining clip breaking. If that retention clip breaks it can allow the belt to  eat into the HES wire pigtail (worth a look anyhow).

 

So, first thing, verify that fuse #5 has 12v into & out of it during engine cranking.

 

Next, verify spark during cranking on upper spark plugs. 

 

Then use a noid light to see if you are getting injector pulsing (you can also use a small 12 led light in place of the noid light  if you get the polarity correct (just try the 12v led in both polarities, it should flash in one of the polarities). Noid light is best though. 

 

 

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Mrclubike

While your getting a Noid light I also  highly recommend getting a spark tester

This one has an adjustment so you can compare spark strength

It is safer for you and the bike

Sure a paper clip stuck up in the boot will work but can be fiddly to get an accurate spark strength 

It is possible both stick coils could be bad

My 04 1150R  ran fine with only one except for the surging 

 

Spark tester.PNG

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Delfiki

Hey guys,

  • Battery
    • The battery test at 12.2v was after all the testing and static (not cranking the bike). At the beginning of troubleshooting, it showed above 14v. The battery is a new PC680 (within the last 3 months), and i put it on a smart slow/trickle charger every night before i troubleshoot. 
  • HES Wire retaining clip
    • The previous owner seemed fairly meticulous with maintenance, and even had a spare alternator belt. I'll pull the plastic cover off to see if the wire/belt is shredded at all.
  • Coils
    • I have two replacement coils coming in. I expected them to be shipped from Germany but apparently ordering them from amazon.de ships them out of Australia. ETA feb 6th for me. Not bad of a wait for getting them so cheap. I'm probably going to replace the existing ones regardless.

 

These are good tools to have on hand. I just went ahead and placed an order for both.  Regardless, I will check for 12v on fuse 5 and report back tomorrow. 

It's really weird to me that the motor works with starter fluid but not on it's own. It doesn't even feel weak when it's running. I took it up to highway speeds once and it felt fine. Ah well.

 

I appreciate all the help!

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Delfiki

Evening everyone. The noid light set and coil tester came in today. Here are my findings:

 

Battery:

  • Voltage - 12.4v
  • Voltage during crank - 11.5v

Noid Lights

  • No light on either injector

Fuse #5 Power
Just key/Ignition switch one, bike in neutral:

  • Clip facing front of bike - 0
  • Clip facing rear of bike - 12.7v

Cranking

  • Clip facing front of bike - 0
  • Clip facing rear of bike - 11.6v

Coil test

  • No spark on either side
  • Noticed left coil has a slight slice in the rubber boot. Probably from age and pulling it off the plug too many times. Good thing i have a new set coming in sometime this century.

 

I switched out the Mototronic relay with the horn relay to test if that made a difference. No change. Horn works on both relays.

Checked the HES cable under the front cover. The retaining clip seems to be in place, no frayed cables or anything. In fact, the belt even seems fairly new or at least in really good shape.

 

What would the verdict be if there's no power on the fuse from the front of the bike? Am I possibly looking at a fried computer?

 

As always, thanks for all your help!

 

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RogerC60

Your fuse #5 measurements are with the fuse installed, right? If so then you have a blown fuse. A good fuse will always show the same voltage on both ends. (I know that seems very elementary to me, but for folks who don't really understand electricity it might be an important fact to remember.)

 

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Delfiki
1 hour ago, RogerC60 said:

Your fuse #5 measurements are with the fuse installed, right? If so then you have a blown fuse. A good fuse will always show the same voltage on both ends. (I know that seems very elementary to me, but for folks who don't really understand electricity it might be an important fact to remember.)

 

 

You know, now that you point it out I feel pretty dumb. I didn't really know in what way I was supposed to check the port, so what I did was I pulled the fuse and checked each clip independently. I didn't think to test it with the fuse installed. It's been a long week.

 

Regardless, I should have also stated that I've replaced that fuse even though the original one in there still looked good. It should be safe to assume that I should have power coming out of the fuse as well since there is power to at least one side, right? Unless I've completely forgotten how to do electrical this week...

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Delfiki said:

 

You know, now that you point it out I feel pretty dumb. I didn't really know in what way I was supposed to check the port, so what I did was I pulled the fuse and checked each clip independently. I didn't think to test it with the fuse installed. It's been a long week.

 

Regardless, I should have also stated that I've replaced that fuse even though the original one in there still looked good. It should be safe to assume that I should have power coming out of the fuse as well since there is power to at least one side, right? Unless I've completely forgotten how to do electrical this week...

 

Morning  Delfiki

 

When working on complex problems like you have never assume anything ALWAYS TEST To  VERIFY.

 

You need to reinstall fuse #5 then test for power on both sides of the fuse with key on.

 

Fuse # 5 is 5th fuse in from the shifter side of the motorcycle. 

 

If fuse 5 has 12v power INTO & OUT of it with fuse installed then you have other issues.

 

Your battery voltage is a bit low on the battery at 12.4 IF you are measuring 12.7 volts at the #5 fuse  (pretty well impossible to have more voltage at the #5 fuse than at the voltage supply source). So re-check these.

 

Also go back & re-check for 12v power at (to) the fuel injectors with key on (number 5 fuse in place).

 

Was your side stand fully UP during the noid light test?????

 

To go on much further we also need to determine if your 1150R motorcycle has a 2nd load relief relay (most early 2004 1150R bikes didn't have this relay but a few did). See picture below for load relief 2 position & color. 

 

Does your motorcycle have this relay? 

 

 

 

1150RT (2004) 2nd load relay.dr.jpg

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Delfiki

Hey dirtrider,

 

I think what I'll do tomorrow is recheck all electricals to revalidate all my original findings. 

 

What do you say would be the best way to check fuse 5 with it in place? Plug in fuse and try to squeeze a test lead in there with it in place?

 

I'm fairly certain I don't have that relief relay but I'll double check and verify.

 

Speaking of the sidestand. It was definitely fully up. The bike is currently on the centerstand and it stays in neutral. I thought about just going forward and bypassing that switch altogether to eliminate that being an issue. I can't seem to find any way quick tips on how to do that. Do I just tie together the cables to close the loop? If so, i'll jump the cables and test to verify that the switch is indeed working fine.

 

As always, totally appreciate your help!

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dirtrider

Afternoon  Delfiki

 

 

I think what I'll do tomorrow is recheck all electricals to revalidate all my original findings.-- Very good idea. 

 

What do you say would be the best way to check fuse 5 with it in place? Plug in fuse and try to squeeze a test lead in there with it in place?-- I usually just install a newer type automotive blade fuse. Those have a  test pad on each end. If each end test pad has 12v power then fuse is passing power through it & out the other end.

 

I'm fairly certain I don't have that relief relay but I'll double check and verify.-- Look for it & let us know?

 

Speaking of the sidestand. It was definitely fully up. The bike is currently on the centerstand and it stays in neutral. I thought about just going forward and bypassing that switch altogether to eliminate that being an issue. I can't seem to find any way quick tips on how to do that. Do I just tie together the cables to close the loop? If so, i'll jump the cables and test to verify that the switch is indeed working fine.-- You can just hook the wires together but  you can test the side stand switch by turning the key on then watching the dash RID while moving the stand up & down. 

 

 

lxIPrvn.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Delfiki

Here are some updates of retests

 

Battery

  • Fresh off the battery tender, 13.4v

Coils

  • New set of coils came in. Went ahead and replaced them both.

Fuse #5 Power

  • 13.3v initially (first test) power off, ignition off, bike in neutral
  • 12.7v key turned to on, ignition switch set to on, not cranking
  • 11.9v cranking
  • Same power coming out of both sides of the test pads

Sidestand switch

  • I pulled the switch cables out and bridged them. testing cranking, and it looks like it gave me the same symptoms. Motor turned over while the bike was in neutral.
  • Tried again with the cable back on the switch and kickstand down. same thing. I wonder if the previous owner bypassed the switch somewhere up higher on the harness.

Fuel injector

  • no power while not cranking.
  • 11.4v during crank (i think i ran the battery down quite a bit by this point)
  • Noid light still doesnt show light.

 

I do have the relay you mentioned above. It seems I have a few empty slots:

 

ZMnxyPn.png

 

 

Just to make sure I didn't screw up anything, at the end of all this i got the bike running with a squirt of starter fluid. Wanted to verify the new coils do fire.

 

So there is definitely power coming through fuse #5. I hope this helps point what might be the possible problem.

 

Thanks!

 

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dirtrider

Morning Delfiki

 

Battery

  • Fresh off the battery tender, 13.4v--   That is good but is high so still has the charging surface charge. 

Coils

  • New set of coils came in. Went ahead and replaced them both.

Fuse #5 Power

  • 13.3v initially (first test) power off, ignition off, bike in neutral
  • 12.7v key turned to on, ignition switch set to on, not cranking
  • 11.9v cranking
  • Same power coming out of both sides of the test pads-- All is good here. 

Sidestand switch

  • I pulled the switch cables out and bridged them. testing cranking, and it looks like it gave me the same symptoms. Motor turned over while the bike was in neutral.
  • Tried again with the cable back on the switch and kickstand down. same thing. I wonder if the previous owner bypassed the switch somewhere up higher on the harness.-- You have an 1150 bike so it will crank with side stand down in neutral or with clutch lever pulled in if in gear. Switch is probably not by-passed!

Fuel injector

  • no power while not cranking.
  • 11.4v during crank (i think i ran the battery down quite a bit by this point)
  • Noid light still doesnt show light.-- We need to understand this as that shows no fuel being injected during engine cranking BUT later you say it ran once fuel  was squirted in (am I missing something on this?) 

 

I do have the relay you mentioned above. It seems I have a few empty slots:-- You are missing the CCP, CCP is the coding plug that forced fueling map choice. It will start &  run without the CCP but works better with one in place.  What country are you in? Or what counter did your 1150R come from?

 

 

 

 

Just to make sure I didn't screw up anything, at the end of all this i got the bike running with a squirt of starter fluid. Wanted to verify the new coils do fire.-- This means it is sparking & injecting fuel once running (or am I missing something here?)

 

So there is definitely power coming through fuse #5. I hope this helps point what might be the possible problem.-- It is still a bit confusing but we are getting closer. How long will it stay running after you squirt fuel in to get it started?????? (we need to understand this part)

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Delfiki

Hey dirtrider,

 

I'm just as confused as you are with the noid light on the injectors. I tried a few different ones to make sure the contacts did touch. No light but the bike did run once starter fluid was squirted into the air tube. Unless I'm doing something wrong, or the noid lights are all duds. I'll see if I can acquire a 12v led and test that.


Once the bike is up and running, it will stay on with no problem. I've even taken it out on the highway and reached high speeds. Doesn't feel weak or sluggish at all. I also just remembered, the last time I had it fired, the motor killed due to me accidentally pulling out the side-stand switch while in gear. So that verified the switch is functioning.

 

I'm in the U.S. in Louisiana. Going off paperwork, the bike's been around from Louisiana to Ohio.

 

If it helps any, the previous owner stated the bike was working fine. He rode it to work one day, came back, parked it, and shut it off. The next time he went to go start it, it wouldn't fire up.

 

Also the weird crunching sound from the starter reappeared last night. Would the starter cause these type of issues?

 

Thanks!

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dirtrider
20 minutes ago, Delfiki said:

Hey dirtrider,

 

I'm just as confused as you are with the noid light on the injectors. I tried a few different ones to make sure the contacts did touch. No light but the bike did run once starter fluid was squirted into the air tube. Unless I'm doing something wrong, or the noid lights are all duds. I'll see if I can acquire a 12v led and test that.


Once the bike is up and running, it will stay on with no problem. I've even taken it out on the highway and reached high speeds. Doesn't feel weak or sluggish at all. I also just remembered, the last time I had it fired, the motor killed due to me accidentally pulling out the side-stand switch while in gear. So that verified the switch is functioning.

 

I'm in the U.S. in Louisiana. Going off paperwork, the bike's been around from Louisiana to Ohio.

 

If it helps any, the previous owner stated the bike was working fine. He rode it to work one day, came back, parked it, and shut it off. The next time he went to go start it, it wouldn't fire up.

 

Also the weird crunching sound from the starter reappeared last night. Would the starter cause these type of issues?

 

Thanks!

 

Afternoon Delfiki

 

Starter could cause a no-start IF it draws the system voltage to below 10v. Per above you show 11.9v cranking so starter shouldn't be  causing the issue. 

 

That 'no' noid light, plus only starts if to spray fuel, in sort of points to no HES (fuel control side) discreet during engine cranking.

 

Can you add small jumper wires to a fuel injector connector, then wire in the noid light  with the fuel injector plugged in?

 

Then spray in fuel & get it started-- See if noid light flashes after you get it started?  (this could tell us a LOT).

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RPG

Enjoying this discussion.

 

RPG

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Delfiki

Ok, i'll wire up the injector to a light while it's plugged in and running. So you're thinking the HES might be a goner? Have we ruled out the mototronic of any failure? Looks like this would be the most expensive replacement and that would be pretty bad if it was, lol.

 

As usual, thanks for all your help dirtrider! A true oracle. You wouldn't happen to be into K bikes too would you? Once I get this R1150 running, my next project is to bring my semi-restored k brick back to life.

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Tush

Yes, I feel for you Delfiki, but I enjoying following along in the trouble shooting.   We are lucky to have guys like Dirtrider for sure!

 

Cheers

Tush

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dirtrider
47 minutes ago, Delfiki said:

Ok, i'll wire up the injector to a light while it's plugged in and running. So you're thinking the HES might be a goner? Have we ruled out the mototronic of any failure? Looks like this would be the most expensive replacement and that would be pretty bad if it was, lol.

 

As usual, thanks for all your help dirtrider! A true oracle. You wouldn't happen to be into K bikes too would you? Once I get this R1150 running, my next project is to bring my semi-restored k brick back to life.

 

Afternoon Delfiki

 

No, we haven't completely ruled out the Motronic but if it runs once started with sprayed-in fuel  that is a positive sign that the Motronic is functional. (at least functional once started).

 

We just don't have enough test info to point a finger at anything definitive. 

 

It is sort of "suggesting" that the fuel-trigger side of the HES might not be responding until the timing cup is spinning fast enough to trigger an injector response (if you can rig up the noid light to a running engine that might help determine if the noid light is working, or if you are only getting injector response AFTER the engine is running).

 

If that noid light flashes on a running engine that will tell us a LOT right there. 

 

If the noid light doesn't flash on a running engine then you need to find a good one (or use a 12v diode).

 

Bottom line: We definitely need to discover IF you are getting an injector trigger when starting normally,  or if you only get an injector trigger once you get the engine started by adding additional fuel.   

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Delfiki

Ok, so I can confirm I am getting an injector trigger while the bike is on. Motor running and roaring after a quick spritz of starter fluid, I get a pulse on the light.

 

I can also confirm that the noid light set...doesn't work for me. I ended up using an LED i use for a 9v arduino kit. It flashes nice and bright and I can see it. Time to return that promptly.

 

I can also confirm that when i turn the key with ignition off, i get no pulse.

When I flip the switch to on, i get one quick pulse. Switch off, also one quick pulse.

When I hit the button to crank the starter, i get the same thing. One quick initial pulse and then absolutely nothing.

 

I feel like we're getting somewhere. At the very least, I've determined that the noid lights I have are trash lol.

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dirtrider

Morning Delfiki

 

Ok, so I can confirm I am getting an injector trigger while the bike is on. Motor running and roaring after a quick spritz of starter fluid, I get a pulse on the light.-- That tells us that your light CAN register injector pulsing (I think, how many pulses do you get?) Does it continually  pulse during engine running???????????  

 

I can also confirm that the noid light set...doesn't work for me. I ended up using an LED i use for a 9v arduino kit. It flashes nice and bright and I can see it.-- That is very strange as noid lights are about as reliable as paper clips. 

 

I can also confirm that when i turn the key with ignition off, i get no pulse.-- This is normal, it shouldn't pulse UNTIL the engine is actually cranking.

 

When I flip the switch to on, i get one quick pulse.-- Something going on with this as it should stay off until engine cranking.

 

Switch off, also one quick pulse.-- Again, something strange here, light should stay off until engine cranking.

 

When I hit the button to crank the starter, i get the same thing. One quick initial pulse and then absolutely nothing.--OK, we have identified the reason WHY  it won't start with simple engine cranking but we still haven't figure out the why for it doing this.

 

I feel like we're getting somewhere. At the very least, I've determined that the noid lights I have are trash lol.-- This is very unusual so we need to do a little investigation on this. Can you make the noid light light-up using a 12 battery????? 

 

Given the above we need to back up a couple of steps & again verify the supply voltage going TO the fuel injectors during engine cranking (just to positively eliminate that as the problem) engine does run so it is probably OK, we just need to re-verify so we don't chase a false lead).

 

If injector supply voltage Ok during engine cranking then_________

 

Given the limited info we have gathered so far  it is pointing to an HES problem (HES, HES wire pig tail, HES connection, etc). This isn't conclusive just an educated guess based on the limited info available. 

 

Probably the next step is to access the HES wire pig tail connector, HES pigtail wire routing, to verify that the connector is fully plugged in (all terminals fully engaged), verify that the HES pigtail wire isn't crushed, worn though, eaten by a mouse, or damaged (look at it very closely, especially under the alternator area as that area can get crushed by a carless belt install).

 

Difficult to tell what to do next, you can make a homemade timing box to (mostly) verify HES operation, or use a voltmeter to (sort of) look at HES operation, or remove the HES & send it out for rewiring & full check out (will probably have to ship to "GS addict" in Canada for this re-wire & checkout).

 

Personally I usually just do a quick install of a known-good HES that I use for test purposes but you probably don't have that option handy. 

 

If you remove your HES "for any reason" be sure to fully & permanently mark it's clocking location to the engine case so you can re-install it back to the EXACT same clocking location.   (it is a real pain to re-time an 1150 Ma2 BMW).

 

It is looking like an HES issue but we haven't totally eliminated the Motronic,  but it is a LOT easier to test & verify the HES than to test & verify that darn Motronic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Delfiki
  • While the engine is running. the pulsing is constant.
  • I was able to get the noid light on with a battery. It looks like it uses coils so maybe i just have the wrong kind of noid light for my application?

I'll re-verify the injector voltage during cranking, and check all connections to the HES and report back.

 

 

I'd be ok with with picking up a new HES. Given that I bought this bike for some long distance touring, I'm ok with replacing maintenance parts. Also gives me a good reason to replace the belt that's there with the spare the previous owner gave me. I'd rather have the peace of mind since it is a used bike. I did see a video on YouTube on how to replace it, and the guy used a timing box to set the HES plate properly. Do you know of any documentation on how to build one of those?

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dirtrider
19 minutes ago, Delfiki said:
  • While the engine is running. the pulsing is constant.
  • I was able to get the noid light on with a battery. It looks like it uses coils so maybe i just have the wrong kind of noid light for my application?

I'll re-verify the injector voltage during cranking, and check all connections to the HES and report back.

 

 

I'd be ok with with picking up a new HES. Given that I bought this bike for some long distance touring, I'm ok with replacing maintenance parts. Also gives me a good reason to replace the belt that's there with the spare the previous owner gave me. I'd rather have the peace of mind since it is a used bike. I did see a video on YouTube on how to replace it, and the guy used a timing box to set the HES plate properly. Do you know of any documentation on how to build one of those?

 

Afternoon Delfiki

 

You might be farther ahead to send it to "GS addict" in Canada, he uses good top tier components (top notch workmanship), is a LOT cheaper than BMW, plus he might be able to test it for function 'before' repairing as it would put your mind at ease if he could actually find something wrong with it. 

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RogerC60
16 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

You might be farther ahead to send it to "GS addict" in Canada, he uses good top tier components (top notch workmanship), is a LOT cheaper than BMW, plus he might be able to test it for function 'before' repairing as it would put your mind at ease if he could actually find something wrong with it. 

 

And on top of the cost advantage, if you make alignment marks on your HES plate and the front of the engine you can simply reinstall it in the exact same place when you get it back and not have to worry about timing.

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dirtrider
4 minutes ago, RogerC60 said:

 

And on top of the cost advantage, if you make alignment marks on your HES plate and the front of the engine you can simply reinstall it in the exact same place when you get it back and not have to worry about timing.

Roger

 

Thanks for the reminder as THAT is big time & work savings on the 1150.

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Delfiki

I went in and re-verified my injector voltage.

I am incorrect in my initial check. I originally checked the positive lead from the injector cable, and grounded my voltmeter at a different place. Not entirely sure what I was thinking. So when I put the positive lead on the yellow wire and negative lead on a ground location (the negative jump terminal on the left engine jug) while cranking i get 11.4 volts. With both leads in the injector cable, i get zero during cranking. I think I've completely forgotten how electricity works, or I'm inhaling fumes in the garage...lol. 

 

I checked the cable connection to the HES and it was fairly well clipped into place. reseated the cable into its socket. Still no-start. Also, i have the oval plug instead of the flat plug if that makes any difference.

 

So to summarize, no power to injector cables with both voltmeter leads to the plug itself and cables were correctly plugged in.

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dirtrider
17 hours ago, Delfiki said:

I went in and re-verified my injector voltage.

I am incorrect in my initial check. I originally checked the positive lead from the injector cable, and grounded my voltmeter at a different place. Not entirely sure what I was thinking. So when I put the positive lead on the yellow wire and negative lead on a ground location (the negative jump terminal on the left engine jug) while cranking i get 11.4 volts. With both leads in the injector cable, i get zero during cranking. I think I've completely forgotten how electricity works, or I'm inhaling fumes in the garage...lol. 

 

I checked the cable connection to the HES and it was fairly well clipped into place. reseated the cable into its socket. Still no-start. Also, i have the oval plug instead of the flat plug if that makes any difference.

 

So to summarize, no power to injector cables with both voltmeter leads to the plug itself and cables were correctly plugged in.

 

Afternoon Delfiki

 

OK, that means that your ARE getting 12v TO the injectors but the Motronic isn't pulling (pulsing) the injector trigger side low during engine cranking. 

 

A guess based on past history would point to the HES top sensor not working during engine cranking, or the wiring between the top HES sensor & the Motronic has issues. 

 

But, there is no guarantee that the problem isn't in the Motronic itself (it could actually be either the HES or the Motronic).

 

It is a LOT easier to check & verify the HES so that would be the logical place to start. 

 

Possibly build an HES test box or give "GS addict" as call (or E-Mail) to see if he can give your HES a thorough test.  

 

 

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Delfiki

Evening dirtrider,

 

So I ended up whipping together a shoddy HES tester as I had some wiring/1k resistors laying around.

 

I pulled the HES from the bike and can confirm the HES is working. The lights are on when I flip the switch to the battery. The appropriate light turns off when I block/put a metal object in the sensor.

 

Any thoughts on what this means? Would it really ultimately be the mototronic if the bike fires up and runs perfectly with starter fluid? I'm even more confused as I expected the HES to be the culprit at this point.

 

Thanks for your help!

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Mrclubike

Have you checked for B+ at the Motronic during cranking

I do remember you checked for B+ out of Fuse 5 but lets make sure you are getting it when  cranking

You should have B+ on pins 1 and 23

image.thumb.png.4e57151c69fc765818f985207d9431e7.png

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, Delfiki said:

Evening dirtrider,

 

So I ended up whipping together a shoddy HES tester as I had some wiring/1k resistors laying around.

 

I pulled the HES from the bike and can confirm the HES is working. The lights are on when I flip the switch to the battery. The appropriate light turns off when I block/put a metal object in the sensor.

 

Any thoughts on what this means? Would it really ultimately be the mototronic if the bike fires up and runs perfectly with starter fluid? I'm even more confused as I expected the HES to be the culprit at this point.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Morning Delfiki

 

Looks like we have someone else that wants to step in here &  take over the diagnostics on your problem.  So I will step aside as it appears that  Mrclubike wants to jump ahead & take over the diagnostics to  take you in another direction that we have already covered. Your problem is way-too-complex to have 2 people taking you in different diagnostic directions or shortcut the diagnostics (it will get very confusing & become counterproductive) 

 

If you need anything specifically from me just give me a PM, otherwise it looks like Mrclubike wants to step in on this and  take over the remainder of the diagnostics on your problem. 

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Mrclubike
16 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Delfiki

 

Looks like we have someone else that wants to step in here &  take over the diagnostics on your problem.  So I will step aside as it appears that  Mrclubike wants to jump ahead & take over the diagnostics to  take you in another direction that we have already covered. Your problem is way-too-complex to have 2 people taking you in different diagnostic directions or shortcut the diagnostics (it will get very confusing & become counterproductive) 

 

If you need anything specifically from me just give me a PM, otherwise it looks like Mrclubike wants to step in on this and  take over the remainder of the diagnostics on your problem. 

 

Sorry Dirtrider

I was not trying to take over

I only meant to interject a little bit

Please carry on

I will step aside

Mark

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Delfiki

Thanks everyone for your help! After some continued help from dirtrider, I took a shot in the dark and wondered if maybe the starter was the culprit.

 

As it turns out, the starter itself was messing with my bike. I ordered an enduralast starter from EME, and had it wired in no time today. As soon as I hit the ignition button, the bike roared to life and had no issues re-starting after repeated attempts. Safe to say this was definitely a weird issue. Ultimately I ended up having the following symptoms:

 

  • Bike only starts on starter fluid
  • No spark visible
  • No fuel spray from injectors
  • No voltage to injectors during crank
  • HES tests showed it was working properly. Replaced anyway with new one
  • Mototronic showed as working. Replaced with known good/used one.
  • Mototronic threw no error codes except for the HES. These disappear after spinning the motor over once.
  • Got out of both quick disconnect connections from/to the tank
  • Fuel pump worked. U-Hose intact. Replaced entire assembly because I accidentally broke the plastic piece on the fuel pump replacing the fuel filter
  • New battery was used

Now I'm off to remove the ABS module and hope I can trade it for a set of bags. Thanks again everyone!

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RPG

Excessive current draw from old starter causing the injectors not to fire?

 

RPG

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Delfiki

That's what I'm thinking. The starter did kill the battery fairly quickly so that may be a symptom of the starter drawing too much current. The upside of this is that the bike is essentially ready for the long haul since most of the electronic maintenance parts have been replaced!

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Jim Moore
34 minutes ago, RPG said:

Excessive current draw from old starter causing the injectors not to fire?

 

RPG

Could you check that by watching the volts as you hit the start button? I think it would show, but you still wouldn't know if it was a bad battery or a bad starter, right?

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dirtrider
37 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

Could you check that by watching the volts as you hit the start button? I think it would show, but you still wouldn't know if it was a bad battery or a bad starter, right?

 

Afternoon Jim

 

As a general rule yes, on this particular motorcycle no. (a very long running diagnostic tree done through PM's)

 

This motorcycle would sometimes show injector discreet control & sometimes not, sometimes show a good spark, something no spark at all, & sometimes a yellow spark.  Some test points showed low voltage for one measurement then showed OK the next measurement. 

 

It would run once started but wouldn't start without adding starting fluid. 

 

Due to long range diagnosis & somewhat delayed feedback it appears that the Motronic was not performing properly during engine cranking due to lowered system voltage but was difficult to pin down until Delfiki installed a new starter. 

 

 

 

 

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Jim Moore

Thanks DR.

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