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Rougarou

I'm pro 2A, but these folks,......

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Rougarou

are an embarrassment and kinda make me reach back and feel to ensure that, well, you know,....

image.png.9bdc1f4087947a591ad63e96c6d67da0.png

 

Close the stinkin' ejection port cover!!!!!

 

And don't dress like you're going to war!!!!!

 

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TEWKS

81e02555f3a0590e498a77a479dd3231.jpg

 

Or you have more firepower than me! :classic_biggrin:

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Paul De

I'm from part of the country where gun ownership is very prevalent, but context matters.  Open carry with a 30-06 bolt action in a small town during deer hunting season slung on your shoulder is no big deal. In the middle of a major metropolitan city wearing a bullet proof vest with a human hunter style semiautomatic slung to your chest is a big deal. Cops in these large cities have enough to manage with the dangerous and idiots that have guns than having to deal with these rabid 2A activists as well.   You bet these 2A activists will scream to high heaven if a local LEO drops one of them by mistake. I would say stupid is, is what stupid does, too bad so sad.

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ltljohn
7 hours ago, Living the Dream said:

are an embarrassment and kinda make me reach back and feel to ensure that, well, you know,....

image.png.9bdc1f4087947a591ad63e96c6d67da0.png

 

Close the stinkin' ejection port cover!!!!!

 

And don't dress like you're going to war!!!!!

 

 

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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Joe Coastie

All I see is two people at a peaceful pro 2nd amendment exercising their rights.

Perhaps the governor should stop acting like god.

 

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TEWKS

I know you all get the news too, but just a reminder on how the Second Amendment and Jack Wilson got it right. And of course, how bumbling Joe Biden got it wrong, again. What...? it's allowed! :classic_biggrin:

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realshelby

I at one time owned enough guns that I was headed for a federal firearms license. I still own plenty. I believe very much in the right to own and bear arms. I practice both.

 

Yet I have never understood calling AR 15's sporting rifles. And those guns like it. 

 

My opinion of the photo is that it is going too far. I might well be at a rally like that. But it won't be in full military gear. That is not helping gun owners. In my opinion. 

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TEWKS

I’m a very casual gun enthusiast in comparison it sounds like but my question is, why does black plastic and a pistol-grip make a rifle so much more vilified?

 

Just as lethal, but less scary maybe? :dontknow:

 

 

 

B6D45643-C99C-4E73-AB5D-1809BEFFA540.jpeg

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Rougarou
47 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Yet I have never understood calling AR 15's sporting rifles. And those guns like it. 

 

I have one that I use for target shooting, it's a sporting rifle for me, not home defense as there's too much penetration of interior walls (know your target and what's behind it).

 

Is it the "look" of the weapon that concerns you?  Because a 5.56/.223 comes in "other" styles that are more conducive to the "look" of a hunting type rifle.

 

image.png.539d7720393bb1f7cb94c41b1fcdaa54.png

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, realshelby said:

 

My opinion of the photo is that it is going too far. I might well be at a rally like that. But it won't be in full military gear. That is not helping gun owners. In my opinion. 

 

True, that's why I say it's an "embarrassment".  Call it cosplay, call it "exercising their rights", whatever you want, but it does give the overall public the stereotype that they're looking for..........I "dropped my pack" in 2009 and never intend to put another kevlar or vest on again.........I've played Marine for real.

 

"If" i were to attend an event such as this, I certainly would not play into the "typecasting" of a 2A supporter, you'd never know I had anything on me,......that's the whole idea "never let them see you coming".

 

 

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realshelby
8 minutes ago, Living the Dream said:

 

I have one that I use for target shooting, it's a sporting rifle for me, not home defense as there's too much penetration of interior walls (know your target and what's behind it).

 

Is it the "look" of the weapon that concerns you?  Because a 5.56/.223 comes in "other" styles that are more conducive to the "look" of a hunting type rifle.

 

image.png.539d7720393bb1f7cb94c41b1fcdaa54.png

 

 

 

 

True, that's why I say it's an "embarrassment".  Call it cosplay, call it "exercising their rights", whatever you want, but it does give the overall public the stereotype that they're looking for..........I "dropped my pack" in 2009 and never intend to put another kevlar or vest on again.........I've played Marine for real.

 

"If" i were to attend an event such as this, I certainly would not play into the "typecasting" of a 2A supporter, you'd never know I had anything on me,......that's the whole idea "never let them see you coming".

 

 

We agree on something! See, I am not quite what you might have thought! :19:

 

The 5.56/223 isn't the problem. Any caliber/gun can kill. Or even modified to be nearly as effective as these assault weapons. Yes, it is partially the appearance. It is also more than that. 

 

These weapons were designed from paper to field use to be most effective in combat. Killing people specifically. They are very good at that. They are equipped with, or built to accommodate accessories useful in combat. Magazine clips holding 30,50, or more rounds. That is perfect in its intended use. Not so much for sporting use. Even target shooting. 

 

I don't think 15+ round magazines are needed for sporting rifles. I have never shot all 5 my bolt and automatic rifles hold when hunting.

 

The reason I have taken this position is that these "style" of guns are an image. While myself and 99,99% of legal gun owners could be trusted to own these, there is a subset of those in society that WILL intend to use them for exactly what they were designed for. To kill other people. How they get them is not important, that they want them is important. Because they are the only commonly available weapons easily fitted with extended high capacity magazines, are able to fire all those rounds with reliability. And they look good when carrying them around the other drug dealers. The term "sporting rifle" was simply brought up to de-vilify these weapons. How many mass shootings that have occurred have had these assault rifles used....think about that. That is my reason to justify why I don't and won't own one. They are not for sport as I describe it. Note I am not asking anyone to give theirs up. That won't work. But don't tell me, when I am at the range being blasted by your $%#&*^% muzzle brake on your AR that it is your favorite sporting rifle! 

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Rougarou

Nah, the 5.56/.223 isn't as good a killing as thought to be.

 

In Somalia, the problem was that the rounds were going "through" the bad guys, this continues to this day, that's why the military are looking to different, more lethal rounds.  The only real way the "tumble" action occurs is if it hits something hard "bone".

 

I'm lazy when target shooting, I don't like to fill magazines very much, so the 30 standard is handy.  I hate refilling my 13 and 15 round pistol mags and especially the seven round ones.  When I shoot, I like to do it continuously.  And I don't hunt.

 

The amount of these rifles used is because of the mass amount of production.  Any magazine fed type weapon can have magazines modified for larger capacity, and be semi-automatic, which leads it right back to the issue that it's the "look" rather than the actual weapon. 

 

Anyway, anything you can put on an AR variant, you can put on a shotgun.

 

 

Mmmmmm, the SPAS-12,.....had one for a while, shoulda kept it as the value went up tremendously.

image.png.57f187f2af06979e2e328cbba7423549.png

 

Rails, which allow all the "toys" to be added

image.png.125760fb595e4d5701671d0c86480deb.png

 

Capacity

image.png.116acc9911b50e3b34592f8f6c04d247.png

image.png.4424a3271aafba1d70c9f7bf41addd18.png

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Paul De

See we can find common ground.  I own several rifles for hunting purposes...right tool for the right job.  I have lived in the city all my life and they never see the light of day there and only come out at my beloved Northwoods place.  Haha, my wife and I are in the process of getting rid of the city home and she suggested we should get a hand gun for the Northwoods home, but we had never considered having one living in the city.  Again, it will be the right tool for the job.  It will be used for walking the 1/4 mile private road to the mailbox.  Coyote are abundant and although they rarely bother humans it has happened, particularly if they think you are a threat to their pups. But I digress.

 

I agree that these suited up for combat jokers at rallies do more harm than good.  Wisconsin has always been an open carry state and it was never an issue until about 10-15 years ago when every so often you now get a dumb ass exercising his 2A rights by walking around an urban area of 1.5 million people with a firearm.  Milwaukee, like many medium to large cities, is already having to deal with its share of idiot with a gun violence.  A city where we had a skin head type attack a Sikh temple killing and wounding innocent people while they worshiped, a LEO got shot taking him down. Horrific! So, you're damn right these open carry knuckleheads are provoking the local law to ask what they are on about and then they get all indignant and huffy that their rights are being trampled when a LEO advises that it would be more prudent to not carry in an urban area.  In my mind they are at the least unwitting provocateurs.   Yes, I agree it is their right to own and carry fire arms, but it is not their right to be a dumb ass with that gun by displaying it in an out of context way.  They are being a public nuisance and provoking fear in the other citizens and that is not OK.  They only promote more gun legislation which is antithetical to their goal.

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TEWKS
59 minutes ago, realshelby said:

But don't tell me, when I am at the range being blasted by your $%#&*^% muzzle brake on your AR that it is your favorite sporting rifle! 

 

Ok, a little detective work and I've found the Assholes:rofl: See now my ignorance surfaces, "muzzle brake" we always called them "flash suppressors" thinking the purpose was to disguise where your lead was coming from. :dontknow:

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Rougarou
9 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

 

 thinking the purpose was to disguise where your lead was coming from. :dontknow:

 

Uh, no......that would be an actual sound suppressor, commonly call "silencer", of which, you need a license to purchase.

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Paul De

Right tool for the right job.  The assault style rifle has a caliber too small for big game, too large for small game, and just right for humans. The caliber and high velocity make it a terrible brush gun as the bullet gets skipped off target in the branches.

 

And while beauty is in the eye of the beholder I would say there is no comparison

Beautiful

image.png.92ba986768849b46d5ced7109104c3cc.png

 

 

 

Not so much

image.png.b87d9aa250ffacf447bf906d82356d50.png

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TEWKS
6 minutes ago, Living the Dream said:

 

Uh, no......that would be an actual sound suppressor, commonly call "silencer", of which, you need a license to purchase.

 

I was thinking more on the battlefield, hide your flash so they can't pinpoint your location and call up a sniper or the aerial arsenal? 

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lawnchairboy

virginia is an open carry ("constitutional") carry state, for now.  To your point at the start, I don't get dress up time either.

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Rougarou
9 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Right tool for the right job.  The assault style rifle has a caliber too small for big game, too large for small game, and just right for humans. The caliber and high velocity make it a terrible brush gun as the bullet gets skipped off target in the branches.

 

And while beauty is in the eye of the beholder I would say there is no comparison

Beautiful

image.png.92ba986768849b46d5ced7109104c3cc.png

 

 

 

Not so much

image.png.b87d9aa250ffacf447bf906d82356d50.png

 

 

Here's a 5.56/.223 caliber weapon

 

image.png.8fb419cccf4eb7f030390a745f6470db.png

 

It's not "assault" style, it's "hunting" style, so there must be a use for it.  Ruger Ranch  if there's no use for that particular caliber, why is it offered in a hunting style,......remember, I don't hunt.  Could it be for nuisance pigs, wolves, coyotes?

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Rougarou
10 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

 

I was thinking more on the battlefield, hide your flash so they can't pinpoint your location and call up a sniper or the aerial arsenal? 

 

Nope, that flash is fairly bright,....also, magazine loads of tracers vary from every two-three rounds to a few at the bottom, to full mags of tracers for target marking of crew served weapons.  Machine guns have them automatically in the cans/drums every fifth round, you have to manually/physically strip the tracers out replacing them with ball rounds if you are on certain ops.

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realshelby
25 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

 

Ok, a little detective work and I've found the Assholes:rofl: See now my ignorance surfaces, "muzzle brake" we always called them "flash suppressors" thinking the purpose was to disguise where your lead was coming from. :dontknow:

Muzzle brakes are used to lessen recoil. Which leads to getting back on target quicker. Can make a nice display of fireball, depending on the ammunition used. 

 

They are also deafening to those unfortunate enough to have  a shooting booth beside those using them! They also direct a decent amount of the shockwave at those beside them. Especially irritating in indoor ranges. 

 

I have a childish thing I like to do when I am about done at the range. Out comes the Ruger Super Blackhawk. Loaded with Buffalo Bore ammunition:

Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo
340 gr. Hard Cast, L.F.N. - G.C. @ 1,425 fps/M.E. 1,533 ft lbs

This is not your standard ammo. The fireball is epic. So is the report. I have seen other booths quit shooting when it goes off! My payback for having to listen to muzzle brakes. 

 

 

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Paul De
43 minutes ago, Living the Dream said:

 

 

Here's a 5.56/.223 caliber weapon

 

image.png.8fb419cccf4eb7f030390a745f6470db.png

 

It's not "assault" style, it's "hunting" style, so there must be a use for it.  Ruger Ranch  if there's no use for that particular caliber, why is it offered in a hunting style,......remember, I don't hunt.  Could it be for nuisance pigs, wolves, coyotes?

You have a point.  My frame of perspective is not from a rancher and wild bore are very rare here.  So, I do notice it is bolt action and not a semiautomatic that can be made full automatic with a bump stock. +1 for it becoming a sporting rifle.

 

I will say that some of those wild bore get to be huge and I might rather fix the problem with a .348 Winchester (buffalo gun)

image.png.ec30d5c38e036ad529419d8b59b475d1.png

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Rougarou
3 hours ago, Paul De said:

You have a point.  My frame of perspective is not from a rancher and wild bore are very rare here.  So, I do notice it is bolt action and not a semiautomatic that can be made full automatic with a bump stock. +1 for it becoming a sporting rifle.

 

ANY semi-automatic can be "bump fired", the stock just made it "sorta" easier.  The ban on bump stocks is a joke because I can grab any piece of wood that fits the trigger guard and be just as inaccurate a shot with the bumpstock.

 

A fully automatic weapon, fired from the shoulder, IS NOT an accurate weapon, not even very suppressive as the rounds "climb".  Your first few shots will hit so long as you aimed low, hence why fully auto's are generally bipod or more effectively tripod mounted.

 

Here's a fine example of bumpfiring a pistol

 

Bumpfiring rifles with just your fingers.

 

Quote

I will say that some of those wild bore get to be huge and I might rather fix the problem with a .348 Winchester (buffalo gun)

image.png.ec30d5c38e036ad529419d8b59b475d1.png

 

Animals killed with AR-15

 

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Paul De

Yup and yet they were designed for human hunting during war. IMOHO it is the wrong tool for the job.  Sport hunters did just fine before they were sold to the public.   And just like our BMW motorcycles, while they are functional, they are still butt ugly. Especially the ones I don't own :grin:

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Rougarou
35 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Yup and yet they were designed for human hunting during war. IMOHO it is the wrong tool for the job.  Sport hunters did just fine before they were sold to the public.   And just like our BMW motorcycles, while they are functional, they are still butt ugly. Especially the ones I don't own :grin:

 

Any tool that gets the job done is the correct tool.  Haven't you ever heard that anything hard can be a hammer.

 

Using "designed for human hunting during war", the M9 Beretta falls into that category, the M1 Garand falls into that category (can be modified for extended magazines), and I'm sure there are other semi-automatic weapons that were designed specifically for military purposes, but we're going to narrow it down to an AR type simply because of appearances.......methinks not.  You can get a 30+ round magazine for the M9, bumpfire it to "automatic like" and have a very small "machine gun".

 

And in all actuality, the Armalite design was from the "late" 50's, as far as my history is concerned, we weren't fighting anyone in the late 50's.

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realshelby

And if you want to be honest about it, the pistols I most cherish are 1911's. Intended for military use. 

 

Which brings back the point of assault weapons designed for MASS killing. How often are AK 47's actually aimed? They are sprayed more than sighted. Part of the design. 

 

There is likely to come a day when concessions are going to be made and laws passed about these guns. While I cringe at gun laws, I am also not going to say I cannot see it coming. 

 

We, as average citizens, cannot own automatic firearms. I don't want one. I think we would be just fine if assault weapons were no longer for sale to the public. I do understand that might open the flood gates for gun control, and I don't want that. I don't know what the answer is. But I do know the public at large won't put up with these assault weapons being used for mass killings in the US without some changes concerning them.

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Rougarou
1 hour ago, realshelby said:

And if you want to be honest about it, the pistols I most cherish are 1911's. Intended for military use. 

 

Beautiful design that is still going strong and my little pocket Kimber emulates.

 

1 hour ago, realshelby said:

 

Which brings back the point of assault weapons designed for MASS killing. How often are AK 47's actually aimed? They are sprayed more than sighted. Part of the design. 

 

Nope, the Kalashnikov was designed with accuracy in mind, along with a less maintenance regimen and to give every Russian soldier a rifle.  The AK47 is quite accurate out to about 300yds/m, after that, meh, so-so.  Too many movies show the "spray and pray" method of firing any automatic weapon, which leads people to believe that that is how the bad guys actually fire them,.......it's not.

 

Additionally, it is a very reliable weapon, hence why so many are used throughout the world.  You can beat it, drag it through the mud and sand, flip the safety and fire it.  The precision engineering of the M16/M4 variants,.....no so much.

 

Machine guns and automatic rifles, used in full auto mode are suppressive weapons.  Your point of aim needs to be low if at a point target, as when fired, the weapon will naturally "walk" up and no human can hold it as an accurately fired point target type weapon.......in essence, fully automatic is to keep the heads of the bad guys down while the good guys maneuver for a better position/shot.

 

1 hour ago, realshelby said:

 

There is likely to come a day when concessions are going to be made and laws passed about these guns. While I cringe at gun laws, I am also not going to say I cannot see it coming. 

 

We, as average citizens, cannot own automatic firearms. I don't want one. I think we would be just fine if assault weapons were no longer for sale to the public. I do understand that might open the flood gates for gun control, and I don't want that. I don't know what the answer is. But I do know the public at large won't put up with these assault weapons being used for mass killings in the US without some changes concerning them.

 

Average citizens can own automatic firearms, you just have to go through the process of licensing.  No different than the "average" citizen getting a pilots license.

 

Mental health is the problem, the tools of the trade aren't.  While I'm not too keen on the red flag laws, I do believe there is traction in that......but the problem is that the burden of proving innocence is on the accused "guilty until proven innocent".  The jilted lover, the revenge getter can easily say to law enforcement that "Richard has some weapons and he's threatened Terry numerous times",......now it's up to Richard to prove that it was tongue in cheek speaking, meanwhile, no weapons are in the house,........

 

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realshelby

I think we agree pretty much on what matters. Laws will not stop those bent on chaos. 

And just like we learned during Prohibition, just because it is now illegal doesn't mean it cannot be available.  So would go gun laws. 

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Paul De
22 hours ago, Living the Dream said:

Any tool that gets the job done is the correct tool.  Haven't you ever heard that anything hard can be a hammer.

So your tool box has only a BFH and a vice grips cuz it gets it done then, right?:rofl:

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Rougarou
7 minutes ago, Paul De said:

So your tool box has a only BFH and a vice grips cuz it gets it done then, right?:rofl:

 

So you've never used anything other than a hammer to perform hammer operations?  You've never stomped a tent stake in the ground with your boots rather than using a mallet? 

 

Any tool that gets the job done is the "correct" tool.

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Paul De
20 hours ago, Living the Dream said:

 

So you've never used anything other than a hammer to perform hammer operations?  You've never stomped a tent stake in the ground with your boots rather than using a mallet? 

 

Any tool that gets the job done is the "correct" tool.

We're into semantics here.  Yes, you can use the wrong tool to get the job done and it is still the incorrect tool.  And sometimes by using the wrong tool to get the job done also results in some negative consequence.  Using a screw driver as a pry bar works, but that might leave the shaft slightly bent and less useful as a screw driver.  Stomp a tent stake works, but might result in a bruise on the sole of your foot, or a damaged show sole.  Using a rifle with a caliber for dropping a human on big game might work with a perfect shot, but if not it does not knock the game down, leaves it wounded to run off with much suffering. you might not even find the expired animal.  On small game a head shoot works well, but if not there it blows the game away making it inedible.  I won't extend this analogy to guns as it seems a bit forced to push it too far. 

 

I personally don't assign any fear for the looks of an assault style rifle as it is just a dumb tool. The fool who owns it worries me.  From an aesthetics perspective my preference would be for a more elegant firearm to have in the gun rack.  But you have to admit that the crazy bastards that go on a rampage against fellow citizens tend to like these assault rifles because they are shorter barreled which makes them somewhat easier to conceal, to wheeled around in close quarters and come with sizable magazines from the factory.  I also think that these crazy bastards also know that the the sight of that style of gun instills more fear in those less knowledgeable about guns.   While I am of the mindset that guns do not kill people, people kill people, sometimes using guns, the part I struggle with is do these assault style guns also inspire the warped and unstable of mind to take lethal action?  That question is so far above my pay grade I have no answer, but I still wonder?

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Rougarou

Semantic word party.....yea!!!

 

"sometimes" results in negative consequences......keyword, "sometimes". 

 

The 7.62, which is a .308 I believe is a "caliber" for "dropping humans",...hmmmm, isn't that same round used in hunting rifles and wasn't it developed for the military?  I believe that most of the "common" hunting rifles use ammunition that was originally developed for military weapons, .30.06 too......so with that, the natural progression of things, the .223/5.56 has rolled into the hunting arena......may not like it, but it is here and effective at the appropriate targets as shown above.

 

Somebody popping a deer with a .300 may not hit the right spot, may not take the target down, then you're in the same situation you question on the 5.56. 

 

Also, number 7 on this list states that the .223 is a good round for deer.  I'm no hunter, so I don't know.....is deer big game or small game?

 

I stand by that any tool that gets the job done is the correct tool.  I've used hex head drivers for torx bits, I've used knives for flat head screws, I've used metric for standard, use what works at the time and if the job is accomplished, you used the correct tool,......sometimes the end does justify the means.

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Paul De

Fair enough...but I don’t think I’ll be inclined to be buying a used vehicle from you, else I spend all my time replacing nuts and bolts with nerfed flats😎

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lawnchairboy

"Is deer big game or small game?"

 

depends on what state you are in/what species.   Big big boys I have seen walking about in Colorado and Kansas and Ohio.   Smaller in NC and VA.   .300 win mag works fine, or 300gr slug in the 870 pump.

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TEWKS

D28642AE-4A4F-4280-AE74-2C48752AB26D.jpeg

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