Synthetic Oil vs. traditional oil

[JGP]

I've got nearly 12K on my 2004 R1150RT and was entertaining the idea of converting to synthetic oil. Seems I get varying opinions from different BMW dealers. Not sure who to believe

 

What has been members experience with synthetic?

Miles between oil changes?

Any potential problems that loom in the futre if I were to switch.

[russell_bynum]

The easy way to answer that question is to send some of your oil in for an analysis the next time you do an oil change. That'll let you know the condition of your oil and if you could extend the drain interval. Then try some synth and do an analysis when you change it. Compare the results and make your decision from there.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

What has been members experience with synthetic?

I works just like regular oil, but it's synthetic.

Miles between oil changes?

As prescribed by BMW.

Any potential problems that loom in the futre if I were to switch.

No.

 

Explaination: I buy my oil by the case and get a good discount for doing so. I put all the same stuff in the cars and the RT. I change it A) every 6000 miles in the RT (as prescribed) B)Every 10,000 miles in the Jetta (2x VW prescription) and C) Once a year in the Jeep, whether it needs it or not.

 

Oil is a big topic of contention around here and other motorcycle forums. If you're not comfortable paying more for synthetic or aren't sure about extending the drain interval, then buy the regular stuff that meets the specs and change it every 6k. Your bike will be fine.

[BFish]

FWIW switched to synthetic at 16k on my '04 RT. oil consumption was pretty much nil by that time. now changing at 6k intervals. P.S. you've opened a can of 20-50w worms.

[Wooster]

... P.S. you've opened a can of 20-50w worms.

 

As long as it's 20/50, I'm OK. Worms begin day relatively slender (20 wt) yet end by bulking up @ 50 wt.

 

I confess to having had (past tense) an oil changing compulsion, starting with my R50/5, changing o/f every 1000 miles; I kept to this schedule with next two beemers (R75/5 then R60/6); only later, with the R80RT did I extend interval to 2000 miles. Then, I switched to a semi synthetic, Golden Spectro (the old semi blend) and extended R80's change interval to 3000 miles. With my most current beemer, I began with ordinary BMW 20/50 and changed o/f @ 3000 mile intervals. Well, no more of that: now I'm a believer in the factory's recommended interval of 6000 miles, regardless (this is my opinion) of dino vs synthetic. Currently, the only synthetic oil benefit I see is my increased comfort when RID shows 8+ bars as oil temp. Synthetic is touted as taking the heat and not degrading to the extent that dino does.

So, to OP, regardless of dino or synthetic, factory's 6000 mile interval is it for me and what I'd recommend (if ever viewed by myopic others as "expert"). The extra cost of synthetic only makes those rare high oil temp events less worrisome.

 

Wooster

 

whenever I wore my hat, I heard music; then I took the band out

 

Say JGP, welcome to the club !

[RPG]

JGP, the bottom line is you need to wait until the motor is mostly broken in before switching. I also have an '04 with 12k and I just switched to Amsoil synthetic because:

a) I got a good deal on the stuff

b) my bike stopped using oil and it seems pretty much broken in.

c) my buddy's bike runs smoother with it

d) I'm taking a trip next month and don't want to worry about changing it on the road.

e) I sorta, kinda, maybe believe some of the marketing hype although my two older Boxer's have run 122k and 165k respectively and exclusively on BMW 20w50.

 

Since I installed, I noticed slightly higher idling (due to the slicker oil?), and easier starting in cold weather. (It's still in the mid 30's some mornings here in Dee-Toilet).

 

I expect to walk around my buddy's R1100S at our next Track Day down the back straight. That will convince me for sure!!

 

Rick

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I expect to walk around my buddy's R1100S at our next Track Day down the back straight. That will convince me for sure!!

 

Better hope it's a short straight and you got a better drive out of the corner. Similar weights and power levels with him having both more traction and superior aerodynamics not to mention closer ratios in the gearbox he should have an edge in both acceleration and top speed.

[smiller]

I expect to walk around my buddy's R1100S at our next Track Day down the back straight. That will convince me for sure!!

 

Better hope it's a short straight and you got a better drive out of the corner. Similar weights and power levels with him having both more traction and superior aerodynamics not to mention closer ratios in the gearbox he should have an edge in both acceleration and top speed.

Ah, but he won't have the Amsoil...

[Urban Surfer]

Buy the synthetic.

I have read pages upon pages of imformation about oil, all kinds of it. What ultimatly convinced me was when I put it in my old Honda generator. Its old, probably 25 years or more, and the spark plug would always foul up about every second day with conventional oil. Less of the synthetic oil gets past the piston rings becouse the oil molecules are all the same size. So the oil stays cleaner longer and it doesn't foul the plug so much on a old worn out motor. Any way this was my analisis after experimenting and reading as much as I could get my hands on.

[X_BamaCop]

I used straight sythetic from the 12,000 mile point on as directed by BMW. Yes, BMW recomends use of synthetic in at least the 04 RT-P's. This is probably due to the excessive idle that these bikes are subject to as Police use them. No problems. I did find a little increase in oil consumsion at first but after I had to add oil a couple of times between 6,000 mile service the oil consumption went away almost all together!

I am not trying to highjack the thread but no one answered my question as to Motomans break in method. This subject is very close as oil breakdown and initial breakin are closely related. Can someone tell me of any experiance with the break in? PM me as to keep me from highjacking the thread!

[DEF]

I've got nearly 12K on my 2004 R1150RT and was entertaining the idea of converting to synthetic oil. Seems I get varying opinions from different BMW dealers. Not sure who to believe

 

What has been members experience with synthetic?

Miles between oil changes?

Any potential problems that loom in the futre if I were to switch.

 

Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil since 8000 miles.....oil consumption is zero. Engione is quiet, plugs are clean and idle is very smooth. Houston heat demands synthetic for 8000 mile change intervals.

 

Mobil 1 auto 15W-50......TBN is very good, Noack scores are high and 4 ball wear test is amoung the highest.

 

Switch without concern.

[wolcott]

Dennis: Are you using regular Mobil 1 15w-50 or the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 which is supposed to be good for 15,000 miles or one year -whatever comes first?

I have been using the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 since I bought my '98 RT in august of 2005. I changed the oil filter in march again (did not drive bike more than 2k as I am fighting cancer) I plan on draining it at the one year mark. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? I mean why would mobil 1 advertise it was good for 15k or 1 year, if it wasn't? They have a bunch of scientists and engineers working for them that must know a little more about oil than the majority of us. We are all trained by our fathers since we've been teenagers to change the oil frequently. The question becomes when are we changing it too much? I remember an article a couple of years ago from Consumer Reports- I think it was where they took a taxi fleet in a major city and doubled the recommended time/mileage service requirements on the oil changes. Then, they tore down the engines and used micrometers and other measuring instruments on the crank journals, rod bearings, main bearings, etc. They reported that there was no appreciable wear in the engine even going twice the recommended service intervals. That impressed me when you figure what hell those cabs go through in city traffic.

P.S. You drive around Houston on a bike? I lived there for 5 years in the last 70's and early 80's. I also visited there last month to see one of my old friends. The traffic down there definitely gives me the pucker factor-and thats in a car! Ride safe and watch out for the nuts.

[Geoff_J]

I own a boat, two bikes and four cars. I prefer regular (dino) oil because it's too expensive to fill all of these crankcases with synthetic.

[DEF]

Dennis: Are you using regular Mobil 1 15w-50 or the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 which is supposed to be good for 15,000 miles or one year -whatever comes first?

I have been using the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 since I bought my '98 RT in august of 2005. I changed the oil filter in march again (did not drive bike more than 2k as I am fighting cancer) I plan on draining it at the one year mark. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? I mean why would mobil 1 advertise it was good for 15k or 1 year, if it wasn't? They have a bunch of scientists and engineers working for them that must know a little more about oil than the majority of us. We are all trained by our fathers since we've been teenagers to change the oil frequently. The question becomes when are we changing it too much? I remember an article a couple of years ago from Consumer Reports- I think it was where they took a taxi fleet in a major city and doubled the recommended time/mileage service requirements on the oil changes. Then, they tore down the engines and used micrometers and other measuring instruments on the crank journals, rod bearings, main bearings, etc. They reported that there was no appreciable wear in the engine even going twice the recommended service intervals. That impressed me when you figure what hell those cabs go through in city traffic.

P.S. You drive around Houston on a bike? I lived there for 5 years in the last 70's and early 80's. I also visited there last month to see one of my old friends. The traffic down there definitely gives me the pucker factor-and thats in a car! Ride safe and watch out for the nuts.

 

Michael,

 

First of all, I am concerned about you and your fight with cancer. As you know, we have likely the best cancer treatment center here in Houston, M. D. Anderson Cancer Research Center. So, don’t overlook a return to Houston if you need help. http://www.mdanderson.org/

 

Next, use the Mobil 1 auto 15W-50 oil for our BMW without concern. It is excellent oil and can provide extended drain intervals. I typically use 7000-8000 mile intervals without any issues.

 

Keep us informed as you battle your cancer.

 

BTW, I commute from the Katy area to Sugar Land every morning on my GS. I rode in at about 90MPH this AM……beautiful day for a bit of law breaking on Hwy 99 (Grand Parkway, a newer road out to the West of Katy). No pucker needed.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

The following with tongue firmly planted in cheek as in wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

 

Dennis,

So it's OK to break speed laws but not enviornmental regs? Can't have it both ways, old man. Laws are laws. You don't get to pick which ones you obey or ignore and the preach about it.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[blaisew]

I'm gonna hide under my desk so the empty oil cans can't hit me when I say this, but my 96 R1100RT was broken in on synthetic oil, at the recommendation of the dealer. It's had Mobil 1 from day one. It has 72K now, and doesn't use oil between changes unless I'm pushing it really hard to stay with some of my Duc riding buddies, and then only a little has to be added. Most high end cars come with synthetic from the factory, so I'm thinking the only down side is a little longer is needed for everything to seat nicely. Starting out with Dino oil and then changing over after a few thousand is probably the best way to go, but IMO either way works.

[bmwmick]

I'm gonna hide under my desk so the empty oil cans can't hit me when I say this, but my 96 R1100RT was broken in on synthetic oil, at the recommendation of the dealer. It's had Mobil 1 from day one. It has 72K now, and doesn't use oil between changes unless I'm pushing it really hard to stay with some of my Duc riding buddies, and then only a little has to be added. Most high end cars come with synthetic from the factory, so I'm thinking the only down side is a little longer is needed for everything to seat nicely. Starting out with Dino oil and then changing over after a few thousand is probably the best way to go, but IMO either way works.

 

No need to hide. Why do you think BMW itself makes the change mandatory from dino to synthetic for all the RT-P bikes at the first service?

 

Mick

[RockLives]

{/quote) Why do you think BMW itself makes the change mandatory from dino to synthetic for all the RT-P bikes at the first service?

 

Mick

 

 

WHAT???

[BUSTED]

On the 2 oilheads I've owned, I changed one at 5K and the other at 965 miles to Mobil 1 automotive 15/50 and never had any issues or problems.

[DEF]

The following with tongue firmly planted in cheek as in wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

 

Dennis,

So it's OK to break speed laws but not enviornmental regs? Can't have it both ways, old man. Laws are laws. You don't get to pick which ones you obey or ignore and the preach about it.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

I did not endanger anyone with my 90 MPH ride. But, those who have removed canisters and CATs are fouling our environment.

 

And, I do not profess to be above the law.....but, I do know that removing CATs and canisters is silly and illegal, just as was my 90 MPH ride recently.......now, go suck on an exhaust pipe and leave this thread alone.......

[DEF]

Regarding oil, you are all correct here......dino-synthetic...doesn't matter much...I prefer synthetic due to the Houston summer heat and the ability to extend drain intervals, Goeff_J prefers dino due to costs......both good, valid reasons for the choices.

 

Strokhead..Shovelhead (or whatever his moniker is)...well, he is a troublemaker and should be ignored.

 

When choosing oil, be sure you use the correct viscosity.......in boxers, the API ratings just don't mean much…so choose a good, name brand and be done with it.

[DEF]

Dennis: Are you using regular Mobil 1 15w-50 or the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 which is supposed to be good for 15,000 miles or one year -whatever comes first?

I have been using the extended mileage mobil 1 15w-50 since I bought my '98 RT in august of 2005. I changed the oil filter in march again (did not drive bike more than 2k as I am fighting cancer) I plan on draining it at the one year mark. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? I mean why would mobil 1 advertise it was good for 15k or 1 year, if it wasn't? They have a bunch of scientists and engineers working for them that must know a little more about oil than the majority of us. We are all trained by our fathers since we've been teenagers to change the oil frequently. The question becomes when are we changing it too much? I remember an article a couple of years ago from Consumer Reports- I think it was where they took a taxi fleet in a major city and doubled the recommended time/mileage service requirements on the oil changes. Then, they tore down the engines and used micrometers and other measuring instruments on the crank journals, rod bearings, main bearings, etc. They reported that there was no appreciable wear in the engine even going twice the recommended service intervals. That impressed me when you figure what hell those cabs go through in city traffic.

P.S. You drive around Houston on a bike? I lived there for 5 years in the last 70's and early 80's. I also visited there last month to see one of my old friends. The traffic down there definitely gives me the pucker factor-and thats in a car! Ride safe and watch out for the nuts.

 

The old red cap 15w-50 M1 auto oil is no longer available. It is all yellow cap now but, if you have some old red cap, dump it in together without concern...mixing the two is allowed.

 

I have used the yellow cap for the last two changes.....yum-yum.....Bob (the BMW) loves it.....now, we'll likely hear some sort of silly stuff from ShovelEd....Ed, you want some of this here? What say you......(this outta be good)...hello Ed?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I do get silly sometimes. This is, after all, only a hobby.

 

In terms of oil, I use synthetics in all my bikes, changing right after the first inspection. Never a problem, consumption is on par with or just a bit less than with dino oils. I wear in my bikes via a far different program than what BMW specifies and feel comfortable with the switch that early.

 

As to extended change intervals, I did run some of the old red cap 15W50 to 9K miles on my 1100S as most of the riding during that interval was 5K RPM freeway droning with a couple of sets of tasty twisties thrown in where I was seldom under 5K. I didn't have the oil analyzed but was not pleased with the resulting look and smell so I went back to 6K intervals. Probably no big deal.

 

Silly, to me, is changing the oil sooner, some folks go only 3K. Oil is/was pretty cheap in the long run so it doesn't much matter execpt for the added strain on our resources involved at both ends of the supply change, mfg and disoposal.

 

Aside to Dennis. Take a look through the 6000 odd posts I have here. When you start to approach the level of help I have given folks around here you can start to critizice my actions.

[wolcott]

The question I would like to see opinions on is this: On the yellow/gold cap mobil 1 extended mileage oil, which is supposed to be good for 15k miles or one year (whichever comes first) would you trust the oil for the full year or 15k (whichever came first)? This assumes that you change the oil filter at the 6 month interval. Or would you prefer to play it on the safer side and change the oil at perhaps 8 months and perhaps 8-10k mileage (more or less ignoring the claim Mobil makes that this mobil 1 ext. mileage is good for 15k or 1 year). Let's hear your thoughts.

[Geoff_J]

Besides cost, one other reason I don't use synthetic is the fact that I'd change it every 3K miles (or 50 hours in my boat) regardless of the recommended interval. It's just a habit.

[DEF]

The question I would like to see opinions on is this: On the yellow/gold cap mobil 1 extended mileage oil, which is supposed to be good for 15k miles or one year (whichever comes first) would you trust the oil for the full year or 15k (whichever came first)? This assumes that you change the oil filter at the 6 month interval. Or would you prefer to play it on the safer side and change the oil at perhaps 8 months and perhaps 8-10k mileage (more or less ignoring the claim Mobil makes that this mobil 1 ext. mileage is good for 15k or 1 year). Let's hear your thoughts.

 

I would NOT recommend extending your synthetic long range oil past 10,000 miles because under the heat of air cooled service, there will be some deterioration (slight vis reduction)., hence my 7000-8000 miles intervals

[DEF]

I do get silly sometimes. This is, after all, only a hobby.

 

In terms of oil, I use synthetics in all my bikes, changing right after the first inspection. Never a problem, consumption is on par with or just a bit less than with dino oils. I wear in my bikes via a far different program than what BMW specifies and feel comfortable with the switch that early.

 

As to extended change intervals, I did run some of the old red cap 15W50 to 9K miles on my 1100S as most of the riding during that interval was 5K RPM freeway droning with a couple of sets of tasty twisties thrown in where I was seldom under 5K. I didn't have the oil analyzed but was not pleased with the resulting look and smell so I went back to 6K intervals. Probably no big deal.

 

Silly, to me, is changing the oil sooner, some folks go only 3K. Oil is/was pretty cheap in the long run so it doesn't much matter execpt for the added strain on our resources involved at both ends of the supply change, mfg and disoposal.

 

Aside to Dennis. Take a look through the 6000 odd posts I have here. When you start to approach the level of help I have given folks around here you can start to critizice my actions.

 

......and don't think we're not grateful for all your posts and assistance....now, go put your CAT and canister back on your BMW and quit whining..........

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Dennis,

I don't whine. I'll do as I choose with my bikes. I slight reminder to mind your own business.

[philbytx]

Here's some sensible methodology for using extended service oils. This from using extended drain intervals in my diesel MotorHome (using Delvac1 5w40 ($27 a gallon) - basically, Mobil1 for HD trucks!) for years now.

 

1. I use the Delvac1 for a year, regardless of mileage but I will never go above 25k. I am just a tad anal

2. I buy oil filters in quantity on EBay/Internet or locally on sale.

Purolator or AC for the MH and OE or OEM (e.g. Mann) for the 5er.

I change them at 3mo or 6k. I then top up the oil by filling up the filter with fresh Delvac or Mobil1 15w50 for the 5er.

3. For peace of mind, you could also send a specimen of your annual oil change to Blackstone Labs. Email them, they will send you a kit....

 

Our MH is viewed as a HD application as it is a turbo-diesel so synthetic really fits this particular application. As an aside, our MH uses no oil between filter changes.

 

I have used Mobil1 15w50 in my 95 BMW 5series since 15k and for my 03 RT will be changing over to synthetic 15w50 after my next oil change. Darth is now out of warranty, using virtually no oil and I need to use up the last of my BMW dino. Deb's 05 Subaru Forester will get Mobil1 Synthetic 0-40 when it hits 12k.

As a filter is about $3 or $4 on sale, IMHO, changing the filter at 3k/6mo makes both mechanical and fiscal sense .

[DEF]

Dennis,

I don't whine. I'll do as I choose with my bikes. I slight reminder to mind your own business.

 

I think Ed is getting a bit testy here folks, whaddya think?.........Heh-heh....I love it when than happens....Ed, I know you'll do whatever you want with your motorcycle(s)..and, they have my sympathy.

 

Now, go take your BP medication.

[Bob Palin]

I think Ed is getting a bit testy here folks, whaddya think?.........Heh-heh....I love it when than happens....Ed, I know you'll do whatever you want with your motorcycle(s)..and, they have my sympathy.

 

Now, go take your BP medication.

I think you are deliberately trying to wind him up and that you should stop and let us get back to the subject at hand.

[eric1234]

I'm typically a lurker, but I've got to agree w/Killer. I cast my vote for Ed, a self-admitted grouch who provides a SIGNIFICANTLY valuable service to this board via the sharing of his informed opinions.

 

Thanks Ed!

[DEF]

I think Ed is getting a bit testy here folks, whaddya think?.........Heh-heh....I love it when than happens....Ed, I know you'll do whatever you want with your motorcycle(s)..and, they have my sympathy.

 

Now, go take your BP medication.

I think you are deliberately trying to wind him up and that you should stop and let us get back to the subject at hand.

 

And I think you are way outta your league here Killer..........I would stay on the sidelines if I were you... as for you eric 1234.....I have no comment other than..._ _ _ _ _ _!

[BFish]

chill out man....

[philbytx]

And if you ARE in management , may I be so bold as to suggest the following procedure which would ease any possible friction in Emails and postings.

IF you are indeed "poking fun" and "jesting", try putting a a Graemlin at the end of your statement or something like <weg>...

It is extremely difficult to guage intent or intonation in the written word

 

Yes...Ed is grouchy, I am anal and, IMHO, we are all a trifle disfunctional on the board . Nice folks though, in the main....

[DEF]

In my opinion, these boards exist for a number of reasons; to help new riders, to assist those with problems or questions and to entertain.

 

I agree with Killer, even you too eric1234, I have had enough fun attempting to insult ShovelEd and the rest of you.

 

I know none of you but respect you all and would thoroughly enjoy meeting with every one of you one day….well there may be an exception…Killer, I note your avatar title, arrogant so-and-so….you and I might not get along….I too am a bit arrogant….but, in your case, I excuse you because you are from UT….darn, there I go again……sorry…yer a nice fella, I’m sure. Thanks for allowing me to have a bit of fun……I thoroughly enjoyed all of your insults, to be sure.

 

So friends, my sincere apology if I offended. Enough now and yes, let’s get back to the business of helping all our fellow BMW owners and riders.

[DEF]

And if you ARE in management , may I be so bold as to suggest the following procedure which would ease any possible friction in Emails and postings.

IF you are indeed "poking fun" and "jesting", try putting a a Graemlin at the end of your statement or something like <weg>...

It is extremely difficult to guage intent or intonation in the written word

 

Yes...Ed is grouchy, I am anal and, IMHO, we are all a trifle disfunctional on the board . Nice folks though, in the main....

 

If you attend the ROT in June, I'll buy you a beer or other cold beverage....thanks for the good suggestions.

[eric1234]

Back to topic at hand - Synthetic Oil...

 

Everyone has an opinion, and I had always held the buy it cheap, change it often perspective in my car.

 

However, with work and school, I'm approaching an oil change every 5 weeks, and (because I'm slightly paranoid, and don't like to have dealers touch my car) I do them all myself.

 

So, my advice: do some homework and gather some facts beyond other people's opinions. (Not that other people's opinions aren't worthwhile - where I used to work, I had the fortunate opportunity to deal with the VP of Engineering for a Lubricant firm.)

 

He is a user of synthetic oil in his car with the recommended (15k, I think) interval.

 

His explanation confirmed some of the material I'd found. The easiest way to boil all the information down was that within oil, there are 2 basic types of additives: Viscosity Enhancers and Corrosion Inhibitors.

 

The viscosity enhancers are there to prevent the oil from getting too thin when it heats up. In dino oil, the way it is done is to use polymers. These polymers will degrade over time, reducing the effectiveness of the oil's ability to lubricate the moving parts.

 

In synthetic oil, these polymer viscosity enhancers are not used. (and, to be honest, I don't know what/how viscosity is maintained w/increasing temperature in synthetic oil, but my understanding was that it didn't break down or degrade like the polymers). (Can anyone else confirm or improve this gap of information?)

 

However, engines also have combustion byproducts that can be corrosive, so corrosion inhibitors are added to motor oil. These inhibitors do get "used up" as they "absorb" the combustion byproducts. Synthetic oils (which are designed for longer drain intervals) are claimed to have more of these inhibitors.

 

Certainly, the method of changing out a filter (and dropping in about 3/4 of a quart of fresh synthetic oil) is a great way to keep the inhibitors doing their best.

 

So, for my car, I've switched to the "Extended" Mobil 1 (15k mile) oil. (And changing it out at 12k intervals)

 

In the bike, I'm still running dino, because I don't drive it as much as I'd like (only 6,000 miles so far). (And changing either 1/season or about 3,000 miles, whichever comes first)

 

To return to the other (slightly less productive topic), as an engineer, I have found this BBS, and Ed's posts in particular, to be a great learning forum, as I try to learn more about my bike, and also improve my own hands-on repair capabilities.

 

As for the law, as an evening-law student, I've got to agree 100% with Ed... If you're going to use the law to rationalize a perspective on a topic (i.e. don't remove the cat/canister), it is only persuasive if you follow ALL laws uniformly. For, if you indicate via your actions that you only follow the laws you choose - you degrade any and all persuasive power that argument may have.

 

Therefore - using the "law" is always a much weaker argument than "science" - and opens the doors for others (such as Ed) to point out inconsistencies between what is espoused on one hand and what is done on the other hand.

 

In fact, IF I recall Ed's posts on the Cat, he has gone on the record to state that removing the Cat has little benefit...

 

As for the canister, I have observed more than one anectdotal occurances of where others have had failures or found them to be rust or water filled...

 

Not that I know anything about it - I've never looked inside mine, which is still attached and (I hope) doing its job.

 

Again - if we're going to talk about whether the Canister should or shouldn't be used, it's much more useful to take a poll and learn just how many have been found to have failed, and much more useful to talk about the science of thermal cycles of the gas tank and fumes than it is to talk about the Law...

 

If you use the argument that the guys who make the laws know better than "we" do regarding the use of emissions controls, you can't later say that "you" know better than the guys who make the laws regarding speed restrictions.

 

Further - some of your comments have just been old fashioned "not nice" "...go suck on an exhaust pipe" (- and there really isn't any need for that now, is there?

 

Thanks all!

[philbytx]

Dennis,

You are most welcome...

Regarding the ROT Rally. I am not a great lover of crowds (at least, not any more), which is why we left Chicagoland for Kerrville. However, if you ever find yourself heading for the Hill Country, drop me an E and I would happily meet up with you for some BBQ and/or share a fine ale or three with you (if I am not riding that is )

 

BTW - Houston has a little gem in the St. Arnold Brewery...they certainly brew up some fine ales down there

[Rob L]

Awww crap! I usually don't follow oil posts....been done so many times that reading them is a chore, however, Ed and Def made this one worth following (notice the greamlin!) Very entertaining....until someone gets their feelings hurt and it gets emotional. No need to go in that direction. We're here to help each other, not cause distress.......especially to the old guys (graemlin again!

[philbytx]

I resemble that remark, young man

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Thanks for the defense, Bob and others.

I was a bit tough on him when he first came on board and I think he is looking for a bit of payback. No big deal, I have survived quite a few trolls before.

 

Dennis, Bob is a Brit, BTW, just happens to live in Utah. I don't mind you trying to wind me up. It's pretty hard to do, actually. If you would, please, lets keep things on a technical level where it is possible all can benefit. Snips and jibes are fun but not very productive. Sooner or later, I'm sure we'll meet and probably share a cold one. On-lone personnae can often differ from what shows in person.

[DEF]

Dennis,

You are most welcome...

Regarding the ROT Rally. I am not a great lover of crowds (at least, not any more), which is why we left Chicagoland for Kerrville. However, if you ever find yourself heading for the Hill Country, drop me an E and I would happily meet up with you for some BBQ and/or share a fine ale or three with you (if I am not riding that is )

 

BTW - Houston has a little gem in the St. Arnold Brewery...they certainly brew up some fine ales down there

 

You left Chicago? What were you thinking? I grew up in Lake Forest and still have family there. Chicago is my favorite US city.

 

As the ROT grow near, I'll message you so we can share some stories and a cold malt beverage.

[DEF]

Thanks for the defense, Bob and others.

I was a bit tough on him when he first came on board and I think he is looking for a bit of payback. No big deal, I have survived quite a few trolls before.

 

Dennis, Bob is a Brit, BTW, just happens to live in Utah. I don't mind you trying to wind me up. It's pretty hard to do, actually. If you would, please, lets keep things on a technical level where it is possible all can benefit. Snips and jibes are fun but not very productive. Sooner or later, I'm sure we'll meet and probably share a cold one. On-lone personnae can often differ from what shows in person.

 

Now, I feel like a jerk......Ed, I'll buy the cold malt beverages when we meet and I do bow to your knowledge.

 

As for the Brits, those people made the most popular (and most beautiful) motorcycles on the planet at one time...Triumph T120s, TT’s, BSA Gold Star Clubman, Matchless G50 single, AJS and the Norton Manx (of which I have a picture hinging above my desk here at work).

 

Unfortunately, they let Honda steal away their world motorcycle dominance (Joe Lucas had something to do with it, as well).

 

So, this weekend, I'll raise my glass and drink a toast to you all, especially Robert the poor Brit in Utah, and remember the beautiful Triumphs I used to own and ride. Then I’ll go visit my brother in Illinois and ride his newly restored T100 Daytona...it makes the best sounds of any vertical twin ever (and it has no CAT or canister).

[DEF]

Back to topic at hand - Synthetic Oil...

 

Everyone has an opinion, and I had always held the buy it cheap, change it often perspective in my car.

 

However, with work and school, I'm approaching an oil change every 5 weeks, and (because I'm slightly paranoid, and don't like to have dealers touch my car) I do them all myself.

 

So, my advice: do some homework and gather some facts beyond other people's opinions. (Not that other people's opinions aren't worthwhile - where I used to work, I had the fortunate opportunity to deal with the VP of Engineering for a Lubricant firm.)

 

He is a user of synthetic oil in his car with the recommended (15k, I think) interval.

 

His explanation confirmed some of the material I'd found. The easiest way to boil all the information down was that within oil, there are 2 basic types of additives: Viscosity Enhancers and Corrosion Inhibitors.

 

The viscosity enhancers are there to prevent the oil from getting too thin when it heats up. In dino oil, the way it is done is to use polymers. These polymers will degrade over time, reducing the effectiveness of the oil's ability to lubricate the moving parts.

 

In synthetic oil, these polymer viscosity enhancers are not used. (and, to be honest, I don't know what/how viscosity is maintained w/increasing temperature in synthetic oil, but my understanding was that it didn't break down or degrade like the polymers). (Can anyone else confirm or improve this gap of information?)

 

However, engines also have combustion byproducts that can be corrosive, so corrosion inhibitors are added to motor oil. These inhibitors do get "used up" as they "absorb" the combustion byproducts. Synthetic oils (which are designed for longer drain intervals) are claimed to have more of these inhibitors.

 

Certainly, the method of changing out a filter (and dropping in about 3/4 of a quart of fresh synthetic oil) is a great way to keep the inhibitors doing their best.

 

So, for my car, I've switched to the "Extended" Mobil 1 (15k mile) oil. (And changing it out at 12k intervals)

 

In the bike, I'm still running dino, because I don't drive it as much as I'd like (only 6,000 miles so far). (And changing either 1/season or about 3,000 miles, whichever comes first)

 

To return to the other (slightly less productive topic), as an engineer, I have found this BBS, and Ed's posts in particular, to be a great learning forum, as I try to learn more about my bike, and also improve my own hands-on repair capabilities.

 

As for the law, as an evening-law student, I've got to agree 100% with Ed... If you're going to use the law to rationalize a perspective on a topic (i.e. don't remove the cat/canister), it is only persuasive if you follow ALL laws uniformly. For, if you indicate via your actions that you only follow the laws you choose - you degrade any and all persuasive power that argument may have.

 

Therefore - using the "law" is always a much weaker argument than "science" - and opens the doors for others (such as Ed) to point out inconsistencies between what is espoused on one hand and what is done on the other hand.

 

In fact, IF I recall Ed's posts on the Cat, he has gone on the record to state that removing the Cat has little benefit...

 

As for the canister, I have observed more than one anectdotal occurances of where others have had failures or found them to be rust or water filled...

 

Not that I know anything about it - I've never looked inside mine, which is still attached and (I hope) doing its job.

 

Again - if we're going to talk about whether the Canister should or shouldn't be used, it's much more useful to take a poll and learn just how many have been found to have failed, and much more useful to talk about the science of thermal cycles of the gas tank and fumes than it is to talk about the Law...

 

If you use the argument that the guys who make the laws know better than "we" do regarding the use of emissions controls, you can't later say that "you" know better than the guys who make the laws regarding speed restrictions.

 

Further - some of your comments have just been old fashioned "not nice" "...go suck on an exhaust pipe" (- and there really isn't any need for that now, is there?

 

Thanks all!

 

Eric, lawyers break the law too...they just don't get caught (often).

 

I am against modifying motor vehicles from stock, especially the emissions system. Yes, I am a law breaker.

 

But, as for oil, both dino and syn varieties contain a variety of additives, most of them common to both versions.

 

The most compelling argument for choosing synthetics is their ability to retain viscosity under high temperatures (tested with a kinematic viscometer) as well as their ability to resist cook off at high temperatures (Noack score).

 

In our boxers, the exhaust valve guides as well as the top compression ring and piston land are the hottest areas in the engine. Dino oils require more frequent changes to keep these areas protected, especially during summer heat, with two up at high revs. Also, as our engines heat up, the bearings, cam lobes and other high friction areas need protection from oil that doesn’t drop the ball. Syn oils do a better job when the heat gets high.

 

Finally, when traveling or, if you practice extended change intervals, using syn oil will take you farther and longer allowing potential for reduced cost of oil changes as well as extended protection.

 

I believe we are all in agreement here, yes?

 

Now, please excuse me…I’ve gotta go turn myself in for breaking the law. Anybody know a good bail-bondsman?

[DEF]

Awww crap! I usually don't follow oil posts....been done so many times that reading them is a chore, however, Ed and Def made this one worth following (notice the greamlin!) Very entertaining....until someone gets their feelings hurt and it gets emotional. No need to go in that direction. We're here to help each other, not cause distress.......especially to the old guys (graemlin again!

 

Who you callin' an old guy, buster???!!

[DEF]

Please excuse me folks. I will be out of touch for an extended period.....I'm goin' to the I-BMW board and see if I can start a fight over there.

 

But, I'll be back....meanwhile, ShovelEd, you're in charge of stirrin' it up here.

 

Bye for now......

[philbytx]

Dennis,

I used to race a Manx back in my "younger days"!!!

Have you visited the Lone Star Motorcycle Museum located near Lost Maples State Park? Allan races a Matchless G50 and has a lovely 350 Manx there plus some really interesting older Brit bikes...if you call Nortons and Vincents interesting

He does great Australian meat pies on the weekend.....MMmmmmm!

Come on down.....

[Rob L]

Please excuse me folks. I will be out of touch for an extended period.....I'm goin' to the I-BMW board and see if I can start a fight over there.

 

But, I'll be back....meanwhile, ShovelEd, you're in charge of stirrin' it up here.

 

Bye for now......

GOOD!!! now us youngsters have control again

[philbytx]

God help us all