Update to 2 issues. One solved, one maybe

[Trobinson]

Rather than trying to find two old posts I figured I'd do a new one.

 

First problem: vibration in the right mirror.  I found the mirror gimbal screws securing it to the mirror body were loose.  Tightened 'em up and the mirror image is good.

 

Second problem: intermittent power loss.  This is the maybe.  I haven't ridden it much lately until last week I rode to work most of the week.  The weather was absolutely wonderful for it here in South Texas, starting around 34 degrees in the morning and then around the 40's to 50's going home.  Makes for a wonderfully brisk 40 mile ride to wake one up at 4:30 a.m..  During the week this problem was non-existent until Saturday, when on the way home it started and got pretty bad.  I made it home and did some troubleshooting today.  To start, on Saturday, I noticed shortly after I started the bike I had barely touched the kill switch and the bike died.  I flipped it back and forth and it felt alright and didn't seem to do it again so I rode it on in.  Today I was wondering if the switch may have been my problem all along.  I opened it up and it was pretty dirty and oxidized.  I cleaned it and all other switches up with De-Oxit and all of them feel better and operate better (the high beam switch had been being difficult so it was a large improvement).  I can wiggle the kill switch and it never fails, only killing the fuel pump and RID when I fully move it.  We'll see over the next few rides if this fixes it.

 

Tom

[Trobinson]

So, problem #2 is still there.  I rode the bike to work this morning and felt it lose power a few times, albeit for brief periods.  A couple of times were in turns which makes it very disconcerting.  Guess it's back to troubleshooting.  Will have to check fuel pump pressure, regulator, etc. again.

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, Trobinson said:

So, problem #2 is still there.  I rode the bike to work this morning and felt it lose power a few times, albeit for brief periods.  A couple of times were in turns which makes it very disconcerting.  Guess it's back to troubleshooting.  Will have to check fuel pump pressure, regulator, etc. again.

Evening Trobinson

 

First off, what bike are you working on?

 

Are you losing your RID when the problem happens? If not then possibly look into a transmission gear engagement slipping out of engagement for a nano second   (feels just like a quick engine cut out)-- More predominant on the early BMW 1100 5 speed bikes. Lot of 1100 riders swore it was an engine cut out when in fact it was a transmission jump (usually in 3rd gear).

 

I would put the fuel pressure regulator WAY down the list of possibilities as they don't cause sporadic engine cut-outs.

 

Another place to look (especially if the RID is dropping out)  is to put the bike on the center stand, then start the engine  & move the handlebars back & forth full travel (do it both slowly & fast). If engine misfires then look for a partially broken wire in the main wire harness at the steering neck area (usually the green or red wires are the problem ones). 

 

Another place to look is at the o2 sensor wire pig tail hanging down & touching the hot exhaust. A spike in the o2 signal can give the Motronic fuel control a momentary seizure.

[Trobinson]

DR, sorry for not including the model.  It's a '96R1100RT with ~180,000 miles.  I've posted about this before, just started a new post rather than resurrect the old one.

 

I know it's not a transmission problem because it isn't a quick cutout.  It will last anywhere from a couple of seconds (lately) to roughly 20s, give or take.  When it occurred yesterday and this morning the RID was on.  I can duplicate the feel of the problem by hitting the kill switch.  When I found it dirty/oxidized (and it was also very touchy at that time) I cleaned it up and thought that might be it.  Not the case.

 

I agree the pressure regulator wouldn't be sporadic, but the fuel pump could be.  I've replaced the fuel filter about a year ago, so less than a few thousand miles, and that did not fix it.

 

The O2 sensor is a wideband going to an LC-1.  I'll check it next time I'm in there, but don't suspect that.

 

I will do the main harness check you suggest this afternoon.  It's predominantly happened when going straight, but who knows.

[Jim Moore]

have you changed the HES?

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Trobinson said:

DR, sorry for not including the model.  It's a '96R1100RT with ~180,000 miles.  I've posted about this before, just started a new post rather than resurrect the old one.

 

I know it's not a transmission problem because it isn't a quick cutout.  It will last anywhere from a couple of seconds (lately) to roughly 20s, give or take.  When it occurred yesterday and this morning the RID was on.  I can duplicate the feel of the problem by hitting the kill switch.  When I found it dirty/oxidized (and it was also very touchy at that time) I cleaned it up and thought that might be it.  Not the case.

 

I agree the pressure regulator wouldn't be sporadic, but the fuel pump could be.  I've replaced the fuel filter about a year ago, so less than a few thousand miles, and that did not fix it.

 

The O2 sensor is a wideband going to an LC-1.  I'll check it next time I'm in there, but don't suspect that.

 

I will do the main harness check you suggest this afternoon.  It's predominantly happened when going straight, but who knows.

 

Morning  Trobinson

 

Fuel pump issue usually shows up during hard acceleration where fuel demand is highest. 

 

Was the problem there before the LC-1 addition? If not then try disconnecting the LC-1 to see if that makes a difference. 

 

I know that  you don't think transmission but does the problem always occur in the same gear? 

[Michaelr11]

Trobinson,  have you ever replaced the central coil?  My own R1100RT and those of two friends.  Motor would cut off while riding.  Initially it would restart while still coasting just from the motor turning.  Later on required pulling over and waiting to restart.  On mine, it eventually would not restart. New coil fixed all three.

[Trobinson]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning  Trobinson

 

Fuel pump issue usually shows up during hard acceleration where fuel demand is highest. 

 

Was the problem there before the LC-1 addition? If not then try disconnecting the LC-1 to see if that makes a difference. 

 

I know that  you don't think transmission but does the problem always occur in the same gear? 

The problem started long after the LC-1 addition.  I have thought about disconnecting it to test that theory, but the behavior is exactly like a total fuel cutout.

 

The problem occurs in any gear.  It happened once riding through the 'hood in 2nd or 3rd gear down a slight hill.  I've experienced the transmission issue you mentioned with the original tranny in 2nd gear.  It would momentarily pop out and re-engage.  Disconcerting, but not a loss of power.

 

To describe the issue better, you know how the bike feels when you close the throttle.  Now imagine not just closing the throttle, but cutting fuel or spark entirely.  It is a deceleration, however, disengage the clutch and the engine remains running and will even rev.  Then re-engage the clutch and by that time it's back to normal.  As I mentioned I can duplicate exactly what it feels and acts like by actuating the kill switch (deceleration due to loss of fuel) then re-engaging the kill switch (fuel returns thus power is restored).  Could it be the fuel pump relay?  I haven't dug into the fuse box to check connections yet and so many problems I find in my job are due to connection issues.

[Trobinson]

1 hour ago, Michaelr11 said:

Trobinson,  have you ever replaced the central coil?  My own R1100RT and those of two friends.  Motor would cut off while riding.  Initially it would restart while still coasting just from the motor turning.  Later on required pulling over and waiting to restart.  On mine, it eventually would not restart. New coil fixed all three.

Michael, It is not behaving the same as you describe.  It has not stranded me and has never actually died.  I had a similar issue shortly after I bought the bike (which the PO knew about but misdiagnosed, long story) where it would cut out for about a nanosecond then continue running.  I thought it was ignition and replaced the coil, plugs, and wires - all to no avail.  Ended up being the fuel filter.  Replaced it with a NAPA gold and it was good after that.  Yes, I've replaced the filter plus the screen on the pump inlet.

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, Trobinson said:

The problem started long after the LC-1 addition.  I have thought about disconnecting it to test that theory, but the behavior is exactly like a total fuel cutout.

 

The problem occurs in any gear.  It happened once riding through the 'hood in 2nd or 3rd gear down a slight hill.  I've experienced the transmission issue you mentioned with the original tranny in 2nd gear.  It would momentarily pop out and re-engage.  Disconcerting, but not a loss of power.

 

To describe the issue better, you know how the bike feels when you close the throttle.  Now imagine not just closing the throttle, but cutting fuel or spark entirely.  It is a deceleration, however, disengage the clutch and the engine remains running and will even rev.  Then re-engage the clutch and by that time it's back to normal.  As I mentioned I can duplicate exactly what it feels and acts like by actuating the kill switch (deceleration due to loss of fuel) then re-engaging the kill switch (fuel returns thus power is restored).  Could it be the fuel pump relay?  I haven't dug into the fuse box to check connections yet and so many problems I find in my job are due to connection issues.

 

Afternoon Tom

 

That adds a little more to the explanation. 

 

I still think that you should  start with an LC-1 disconnect (maybe just power it down then remove the CCP so the Motronic doesn't look for, or respond to, an o2 signal).

 

It sounds more ignition related than fuel but under the right circumstances they can both act & feel about the same.

 

You can check relays & power to the injectors by rigging up a simple 12v led to one of the injector green wires.

 

You can check for fuel pressure drop by riding with a fuel pressure gauge hooked into the pressure side line.  

 

You could even have a TPS sensor occasionally acting up if the problem always happens at about the same throttle opening.

 

If the RID is staying on during the problem  then most of your system is staying powered up. (eliminates ign switch, kill switch, side stand switch, etc).

 

Another thing to look for is any part of your o2 sensor wiring, or LC-1  wiring, running near or along your R/H spark plug lead. Spark RFI into the o2 circuit can drive the Motronic crazy for a short time.

 

Another place to look is for the R/H TB cam to be rubbing on, or through, a mis-routed R/H spark plug lead.

 

 

 

  

[Trobinson]

DR, 

 

Thanks for the additional info.  I was thinking about the turning the forks left/right to check for any wiring issues there and realized I do that anytime I get the bike out.  It takes some maneuvering that requires full lock each way to bring the bike out of the garage corner I park it in.  While the garage has plenty of room for 2 cars (it's about 640 sq. ft.) it doesn't leave a lot for the bike so it gets shoe-horned in to the right corner beside one car.

 

Anyway, I'm going to pursue the electrical checks as you mentioned and will also re-wire the HES connection with an AMP superseal setup.  As I recall the connectors were badly damaged when I purchased the bike and not knowing just what connectors to get I used bullet crimp connectors.  I'm going to change that soon so that it's a better connection.  Perhaps it's even as simple as that since one of the hall sensors is used to keep the fuel pump running.  Maybe it's cutting out occasionally.  I'll keep things updated here.

[Trobinson]

Update.  Seems there's been a change in symptoms or there is something else going on.  Last night while accelerating from a stoplight, not WOT, but fairly heavy acceleration, it bogged down.  It was still accelerating, but slower, if that makes sense.  In other words, it didn't go to deceleration as it has, but felt more like the fuel delivery was restricted or spark was suddenly very weak.  Opening the throttle more caused it to continue accelerating whereas before opening the throttle had no effect on the deceleration.  I felt it do the same thing this morning on the way to work.  Engine or outside temp doesn't seem to matter.  I haven't had time to do any further troubleshooting, but thought I'd pass along this change in behavior.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Trobinson said:

Update.  Seems there's been a change in symptoms or there is something else going on.  Last night while accelerating from a stoplight, not WOT, but fairly heavy acceleration, it bogged down.  It was still accelerating, but slower, if that makes sense.  In other words, it didn't go to deceleration as it has, but felt more like the fuel delivery was restricted or spark was suddenly very weak.  Opening the throttle more caused it to continue accelerating whereas before opening the throttle had no effect on the deceleration.  I felt it do the same thing this morning on the way to work.  Engine or outside temp doesn't seem to matter.  I haven't had time to do any further troubleshooting, but thought I'd pass along this change in behavior.

 

Afternoon Tom

 

Still could be either or something else. 

 

If it was my motorcycle the first thing I would try is a complete LC-1 & o2 sensor disconnect. (just to positively remove those from the possibility list & clear those items).

 

It could be a fuel problem but as a rule that doesn't get better by adding more throttle (adding more air to little fuel)  UNLESS you got it into fuel enrichment. If you hit fuel enrichment then it might have gone just rich enough to gain a little more pull.

 

As for a weak  spark, that  usually causes farting back into the intake (backfire popping) as you add more fuel & air to the combustion. Unless the spark shuts down completely but then you lose ALL power & no gain with more throttle opening.

 

A LC-1 disconnect would a great starting point, then if it STILL acts up do a good fuel return flow test to verify that your fuel system is making enough pressure to open the pressure regulator return with enough flow to have a decent fuel return flow back to the tank. 

 

Otherwise verify TPS has an even sweep on both the low & high outputs, make sure the HES is functioning properly at higher RPM's, make sure that  Motronic is receiving a good engine temperature input.

[RK Ryder]

Had a similar problem with my '98 R1100RT. The bike would sometimes die and sometimes start within a few minutes, or once, a few days later. Turns out the wiring to the side stand was deteriorating. Once that was rewired (at the time, the side stand switch was back ordered for a couple of years) the problem has not re-occurred since it first happened in 2015.

 

Yours is most likely a different solution, but this is another possibility for you to examine.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, RK Ryder said:

Had a similar problem with my '98 R1100RT. The bike would sometimes die and sometimes start within a few minutes, or once, a few days later. Turns out the wiring to the side stand was deteriorating. Once that was rewired (at the time, the side stand switch was back ordered for a couple of years) the problem has not re-occurred since it first happened in 2015.

 

Yours is most likely a different solution, but this is another possibility for you to examine.

 

Evening 

 

Tom posted above that his RID was staying on during the problem " When it occurred yesterday and this morning the RID was on". 

 

If the RID is staying active during the problem  then the side switch can't be the problem, if the side stand switch (or wiring) goes open then the  RID goes out.

[Trobinson]

On 1/9/2020 at 3:48 PM, dirtrider said:

 

Evening 

 

Tom posted above that his RID was staying on during the problem " When it occurred yesterday and this morning the RID was on". 

 

If the RID is staying active during the problem  then the side switch can't be the problem, if the side stand switch (or wiring) goes open then the  RID goes out.

Also, my sidestand switch is jumpered out by previous owner.

[Trobinson]

Just received the CCP from Max bmw.  Apparently BMW changed r1100rt color from yellow (golden brown according to the fiche) to black.  Just in case anyone wants to know.

[dirtrider]

41 minutes ago, Trobinson said:

Just received the CCP from Max bmw.  Apparently BMW changed r1100rt color from yellow (golden brown according to the fiche) to black.  Just in case anyone wants to know.

 

Afternoon Tom 

 

That is strange, so maybe verify that it ACTUALLY is a CCP & if so then the correct CCP (sounds like a relay from the color).

 

You can just make a jumper setup with wires & terminals if in doubt.  

 

Yellow CCP should ONLY have terminals 30 & 87 hooked together. (all others open)

[Trobinson]

DR,

 

It has a diagram showing 30 & 87 tied together.  The number on it us Tyco 61.36-8 366 282.  See pics below. 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Trobinson said:

DR,

 

It has a diagram showing 30 & 87 tied together.  The number on it us Tyco 61.36-8 366 282.  See pics below. 

 

 

 

 

Evening Tom

 

Interesting, I wonder if all CCP iterations are black  now? 

 

 

[Trobinson]

I installed the new CCP, but didn't get a chance to ride much until the last couple of weeks.  So far no sudden deceleration and it was happening frequently prior to this.  Time will tell if the problem was simply the jumper I had in place before being loose.

[Mattlo]

I had a similar experience.  After months of testing and (wastefully) replacing components, I found the issue by accident.....

 

I was troubleshooting the bike with the fuse cover off.  Late in the evening, so garage was dimly lit.  With ignition on and bike running, I noticed an electrical spark from the corner of my vision.  Turns out, the Motronic fuse had a crack in the fuse element (which is seen at the top of the fuse).  Spark caused from arcing across the cracked element.  When I jiggled the fuse box, the fuse sparked and ignition momentarily cut.  50 cent fused replaced and issue fixed!

 

BTW - lesson learned that troubleshooting electrical in the dark can be helpful to identify faults.  Ie, arcing wires, connections can be seen in the dark.

 

Hope this helps!

[Trobinson]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:41 AM, Mattlo said:

I had a similar experience.  After months of testing and (wastefully) replacing components, I found the issue by accident.....

 

I was troubleshooting the bike with the fuse cover off.  Late in the evening, so garage was dimly lit.  With ignition on and bike running, I noticed an electrical spark from the corner of my vision.  Turns out, the Motronic fuse had a crack in the fuse element (which is seen at the top of the fuse).  Spark caused from arcing across the cracked element.  When I jiggled the fuse box, the fuse sparked and ignition momentarily cut.  50 cent fused replaced and issue fixed!

 

BTW - lesson learned that troubleshooting electrical in the dark can be helpful to identify faults.  Ie, arcing wires, connections can be seen in the dark.

 

Hope this helps!

Hmmm, might be worth checking.