GS911

[JamesW]

Watched a Smoaks Vlog tonight and Shawn Smoaks was out test riding a 2017 R1200GS after performing the annual service on the bike.  For those that don't know Smoaks is the lead BMW tech at Pro Caliber BMW in Vancouver, WA.  Anyway, Smoaks made an interesting comment about what happens when you use a GS911 on one of the newer BMWs.  Seems if you use a GS911 it will place a marker in memory on the bikes computer which will show up on BMWs proprietary diagnostics shop computer.  I wonder if BMW is maybe beginning to crack down on the use of aftermarket troubleshooting and data readout equipment.  Wouldn't that be great and wouldn't that just figure?

[LAF]

Yes they are looking at stuff very hard these days.  

 

While the good guy in me wants to believe it is for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way", my true pessimistic self says it is to monitor and track looking for a way to clamp things down further and know what you are doing to you bike and even when.

 

IMHO there should have been a Class Action brought against BMW for making you go to them for the service light.  To me it is forcing you to go to them and I would believe a violation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. 

 

I know some cars did it and they made them stop and allow the owner to turn it off.  My car has an oil minder with a nag but I can cancel it or set it back to go off a bit later.  Forcing you to drive a bike into a dealer for a nag light is total BS. 

 

So they must be looking at a way to lock the GS-911 and the Moto Scan App and the inexpensive OBDII reader that also works out of the game.

 

EDIT:  I have read that they have not implemented the rear or 3rd O2 sensor fully yet.  I think it is there for Euro 5 and will be implemented then.  This from someone I respect for his work in the fueling world.  The played with the timing of the O2 sensors and rendered a great fueling device useless for some time, but was finally over come.  I have read he feels they can work past the 3rd O2 sensor.

 

It seems they are going to make a Euro 5 bike stay a Euro 5 bike.

[WBinDE]

Much more of this and we'll have monthly payments to lease the proprietary software that keeps our bikes running.

 

This is already an issue in agriculture where the "right to repair" is an issue

 

BMW cars already require a one-time fee to enable Apple CarPlay for 3 years, after that you have to re-up the license. Not sure of the economics, is Apple charging so much BMW can't afford to include it with the car, or is BMW or Apple looking for a revenue stream? I have noticed that options on German cars  are really expensive compared to the Japanese and Koreans.

[Skywagon]

Apple Play is resident and free in my Tahoe.  I used it for a while but find in the GPS mode it is extraordinarily annoying.  I disabled it about a year ago.

[JamesW]

On today's Smoaks U-Tube vlog he elaborated on where this is going.  Seems as though the end result will be the same for all motorcycle manufacturers and customers as well.  During the warranty period you the customer will have to pretty much do everything by the book and not connect any not OEM approved diagnostic tools or even use any parts including lubricants that are not OEM approved else your warranty will be null and void.  This pretty much ties you to the dealer for service.  Even not following instructions on connecting a common battery charger to a new bike that is not an approved charger could get your warranty voided and could even result in setting fault codes.  Smoaks showed the BMW Mottorad approved $1500 charger he uses in his shop at ProCaliber.  This does not bode well for the do-it-yourselfer.   IMO this new technology leaves much to be desired.  I'm a tinkerer and I like to tinker and get my hands dirty and if I in effect pay for a new bike warranty I would strongly resent having my warranty voided for essentially no good reason.  Smoaks did mention Harley got hit by a big law suite which cost them plenty over issues like this.

 

I'm glad I like the two bikes I presently own.

[TEWKS]

Out, again?  

[PadG]

9 hours ago, JamesW said:

On today's Smoaks U-Tube vlog he elaborated on where this is going.  Seems as though the end result will be the same for all motorcycle manufacturers and customers as well.  During the warranty period you the customer will have to pretty much do everything by the book and not connect any not OEM approved diagnostic tools or even use any parts including lubricants that are not OEM approved else your warranty will be null and void.  This pretty much ties you to the dealer for service.  Even not following instructions on connecting a common battery charger to a new bike that is not an approved charger could get your warranty voided and could even result in setting fault codes.  Smoaks showed the BMW Mottorad approved $1500 charger he uses in his shop at ProCaliber.  This does not bode well for the do-it-yourselfer.   IMO this new technology leaves much to be desired.  I'm a tinkerer and I like to tinker and get my hands dirty and if I in effect pay for a new bike warranty I would strongly resent having my warranty voided for essentially no good reason.  Smoaks did mention Harley got hit by a big law suite which cost them plenty over issues like this.

 

I'm glad I like the two bikes I presently own.

Sorry, but I can't buy this, at least not here in the US!  BMW has already lost a case to FTC, a few years back, when BMW denied warranty coverage to a Mini driver because he hadn't use BMW dealership for his services.  Google it for details, and if you can't find it, I can try to recover the story and FTC press release for you.

[MikeB60]

I've watched his videos and I'm sure he in a good tech.  But, my experience with techs is they typically will tell you that if you wash your vehicle with the wrong shampoo it will void the warranty. Harley didn't get sued, they got fined by the EPA.  It was over the sell of their tuners and performance kits that bypassed the emissions software. These items were sold as off road only.  When EPA found Harley performing warranty work on those modified bikes they took action.  If you have altered the ecu, Harley is not going to honor any warranty claim.  The settlement with EPA was in the 7 figure range from what I have read. Based on my understanding of the GS911 I dont think you can adjust fuel trims or any of the performance parameter of the bike.  If the GS911 is making some internal change to the ECU then I suspect that BMW would have a issue but that's because the EPA has cracked down on performance tuning in general. 

[JamesW]

I hope you guys are right.  It seems common sense would prevail here but in this era one wonders.

[Riderdrumr]

Just bought a used '15 model that is out of warranty. I am assuming that the issue you are referring to is only applicable to possibly voiding the factory warranty. Correct? It's probably obvious but I'm just confirming.

[JamesW]

I think so, just the original warranty.  I watched another Smokes vlog last night and he clarified things a bit more.  He now suggests if you do your own maintenance that you use OEM fluids and parts and document everything and keep all receipts then you should have no issues if a problem occurs.  As an example if you've been doing your own thing and a problem occurs like scored cam lobes and you've been using diesel oil you most likely will have a warranty issue and justifiably so.  Not that your warranty will be totally canceled but replacement of faulty cams will be on your nickel during the warranty period.  I think this only makes good sense.  As far as using a GS911 to say troubleshoot a lean running issue for example Smoaks seems to suggest that in the future BMW could get a bit testy because you connected a not authorized piece of equipment to the computer.  Apparently things have not gone this far yet but he thinks it is definitely trending in this direction and I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't correct especially as complexity and expense to repair increases.  He talks a lot about motor oils as a good example.  I mean here you have a buyer that forks out $30K for a new K1600 and then goes cheap and uses automotive oil in the bike.  I agree that this kind of thing really makes no sense.  Smoaks also pointed the fickle finger at internet forums and the bum dope that proliferates therein and I see his point.  I mean look at these never ending oil threads that for the most part serve no purpose other than to provide folks a place to air their unproven unscientific opinions.  Yeah, I know oil analysis and all that jazz just to try and prove that you waste your money on that expensive BMW lubricant.  I doubt that will have much weight should you have a warranty claim that is possibly lubricant choice related.  Long and short is you pays your money you takes your chances.

[92Merc]

Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act, it puts the onus on the manufacturer to PROVE said oil was the cause of a failure.  Since Liquid-Moly meets their approved specs, BMW can't deny a claim on cams.  Makers can't require factory oil, filters, brakes, etc.  They just have to meet the specs.  The reality is oil would be most likely disputed items.  I don't think there are any "generic filters" out there for the BMW that save that much money.

 

So all you need to do is properly document that under warranty, you bought approved products.  Which is partly why I use Beemer Boneyard.  Then I have all of my documentation in one place.  I just keep all invoices.

 

https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/warranty-laws-and-the-magnuson-moss-warranty-act-.html

[LAF]

That guy is a BMW Tree Hugger and is spreading fear to drive people back to dealers.  It is guys like him who NEED customers to BS and scare into BMW only service and fluids. 

 

As said he may be a good wrench but he is nothing more then a BMW puppet spouting company line trying to fear monger people into the dealer to be bent over.

 

Now if you want to know how I really feel about him just ask me

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, LAF said:

That guy is a BMW Tree Hugger and is spreading fear to drive people back to dealers.  It is guys like him who NEED customers to BS and scare into BMW only service and fluids. 

 

As said he may be a good wrench but he is nothing more then a BMW puppet spouting company line trying to fear monger people into the dealer to be bent over.

 

Now if you want to know how I really feel about him just ask me

 

Morning LAF

 

I was going to post something but your post pretty well covers my thoughts also 

[JamesW]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning LAF

 

I was going to post something but your post pretty well covers my thoughts also 

 

Yeah, I can kind of see it both ways.  Personally I've never used BMW oils and lubricants but I don't use diesel or other automotive products either.  In the case of the GS911 I don't own one nor would it do me much good since my BMW is a bit too old with an early 2.2 Motronic.  When Smoaks first launched into his dissertation about OEM parts I was a little surprised but on the other hand I can see the logic at least during the warranty period.  Also, in the case of BMW it is kind of hard not to use OEM parts but in the case of lubricants there are many good (imo) options but I can't see using cheap oils that are not specked for MC use just to save a couple of bucks especially after you've drunk the cool aid and sprung for a rather expensive new BMW.  In other words I can appreciate Smoaks logic....to a point.  Do I think Smoaks is just trying to drum up support for spending your money at a dealership shop?  I can certainly see how one might come to that conclusion.  I do enjoy watching his videos partly because I come from his neck of the woods and I like the scenery.  Sometimes he takes some good road trips like down to Crater Lake and Central Washington.  I ride up to Crater Lake every spring just after the park service opens the rim road.  Been doing it for years...if I died and went to heaven.

[JamesW]

It really seems kind of hard to accuse Smoaks of trying to encourage business for BMW or even his dealership especially when his ride of choice is so obviously HD.  I do enjoy his videos when he is riding his new HD Softail Slim.  Not saying HD is my style but I can see why HD is popular with those that subscribe to The Motor Company.  

 

Also, if I were to buy a new BMW I would definitely consider an extended warranty and I'm not at all sure I would keep a new BMW beyond the warranty coverage period.  Oh, and I probably would use BMW lubrication products as well.  Just better to be safe than sorry especially considering the up front cost for a new beemer.  Just seems like a prudent thing to do.  Of course I would also do all my own service and from what I can see most service items on an R1250RT are relatively easy to perform.  Especially when compared to my other ride of choice that being my FastJapaneseRocket. 

[LAF]

Well using BMW recommended products is not always what it seems to be.

 

One big one right now that is coming to light is BMW is adamant about NO Molybdenum in your oil as it will take "special coatings off".

 

Seems after MULTIPLE UOA from Blackstone they have the highest concentration of molybdenum of ANY of the oils tested!  So what and who do you believe?

 

Also the UOA are showing 7-8K for oil changes with no loss of viscosity or additives.  Ohh that is for Liquid Molly oil that I use.  You know Amsoil was guaranteeing oil changes of 10K and people thought they were nuts.  Synthetic oils have the ability to go out way past 6K but you need to use a oil long enough and do UOA and make sure the particular motor is OK with the oil.

 

What is truly needed by the motor and what is wanted by BMW and it's network of dealers may, and is, two different things.

 

No worries on dealer service if you have a good wrench.  However they are far and few between these days.  At least from my experience.  Some of the crap I have heard come out of their mouths and Service Managers mouths I wonder where they got their mechanical experience.

 

Parts well except for a few things you have little choice.  Think about it, oil, filter, air filter, FD fluid, brake fluid, brake pads, spark plugs and tires.  Not much else we can buy and use on our bikes as far as parts. 

 

Not everyone wants to turn a wrench, and not everyone has the money or even want to go to a dealer for service. 

 

So two sides to a coin. 

[JamesW]

Hi Lee, I agree.  My R1100RSL absolutely loves Motul 80/90 gear lube with Moly.  The bike has an M93 transmission that was notorious for sounding like a thrashing machine while idling in neutral.  The Motul with molybdenum has totally silenced the transmission and I mean completely!

 

Personally I think any good quality motorcycle specked engine oil of the correct weight will be fine in any BMW or, for that matter, any bike with a wet or dry clutch.  Some folks say that so long as it says motor oil on the bottle she's OK.  I won't go that far.  

 

As far as Smoaks is concerned I respect his opinion concerning OEM parts at least during the factory warranty period.  Especially when you consider the initial investment one makes with the Bavarian Motor Works.  

 

I'm done.

[John]

That's a load of bollocks in Australia.

 

We have legislation which prohibits vehicle manufacturers from forcing owners to use a dealer for servicing, and furthermore prohibits them from declining warranty if the vehicle is serviced with equivalent-quality parts and lubricants. The speculation is that the vehicle must be serviced at the correct intervals as per manufacturer specs.

 

We are in the process of having manufacturers obliged to share their service manuals with independent mechanics. About time!

 

Of course those anti-competitive thugs (personal opinion) at the FCAI (automotive representing "authority") are fighting tooth and nail. But they have lost the battle in favour of the consumer.

[strataj]

On 12/5/2019 at 3:11 PM, WBinDE said:

Much more of this and we'll have monthly payments to lease the proprietary software that keeps our bikes running.

 

This is already an issue in agriculture where the "right to repair" is an issue

 

BMW cars already require a one-time fee to enable Apple CarPlay for 3 years, after that you have to re-up the license. Not sure of the economics, is Apple charging so much BMW can't afford to include it with the car, or is BMW or Apple looking for a revenue stream? I have noticed that options on German cars  are really expensive compared to the Japanese and Koreans.

Haven't heard any more on this.  I found another article https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-03-05/farmers-fight-john-deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor?utm_source=pocket-newtab 

[Corazon de Pollo]

Has anyone contacted Hex Microsystems (the makers of GS911) or WG Software (the makers of MotoScan) to hear what they have to say on the matter? I think this is either a misunderstanding or a case of "controversy generates cash".