COLD ride this AM, Part II

[Riderdrumr]

This past weekend I went to work on the things I needed to do using the info I learned on my last post. Here it is in a nutshell:

 

Took panels off and saw there's an existing pigtail for a battery tender wired directly to the battery with an in-line fuse. PERFECT! Using the parts I just ordered, I'll extend that line up to where the seat meets the tank. Done! Tested it with my new wireless temp controller from Warmnsafe. Works! Now I'm ready for my Monday morning ride. Fast forward to this AM: Hooked it all up and got riding. Nice and toasty!....for about 10 mins and then noticed it all went dead. UGH!!! Pull off to the side of the road. Nope, all connections under the seat are still connected. Decided to just bear with it all the way to work. Got there, albeit very cold, took the right side panel off, and  checked the fuse. Surely it's a blown 10A fuse or maybe it's a 15A intact and there's another issue. Nope! It's an perfect 10A. So, wth??? What could it be? My stuff has no tears. The lines have no kinks, pinches, or cuts. It's all fairly new gear. I'm stumped.

 

Dave 

[Pappy35]

1. So by "It's an perfect 10A." you mean there's a ten amp fuse and it's not blown?
2. Battery in the remote OK? The receiver in the jacket has two LEDs on it, one red and one yellow. It flashes when it connects to the controller and I believe also whenever you change a setting on the knob. Check that when you know it's not working.
3. Is the polarity correct (don't ask me how I know this)?
4. Where did the bike harness come from? Previous owner?
5. The harness I got with my W&S liner (purchased new a week ago) had a 15A fuse in it. Check that.
6. Trace the wires on this harness front to back, is it possible there's a cut that's permitting it to short? When dealing with used bikes that have previously installed non-OEM wiring, unless it was installed by a wiring-anal person like myself, I almost always remove it entirely and start from scratch. When I add wiring you'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from the OEM harnesses. I solder everything, zip ties out the wazoo. Most others don't and what you end up with is a rats-nest of under/over sized multi-colored nightmare.

[Riderdrumr]

40 minutes ago, Pappy35 said:

1. So by "It's an perfect 10A." you mean there's a ten amp fuse and it's not blown? YES
2. Battery in the remote OK? The receiver in the jacket has two LEDs on it, one red and one yellow. It flashes when it connects to the controller and I believe also whenever you change a setting on the knob. Check that when you know it's not working. YES
3. Is the polarity correct (don't ask me how I know this)? If it wasn't, would it work in the first place? I'm asking, I don't know.
4. Where did the bike harness come from? Previous owner? YES, but it was designed to connect a battery tender. Hence the 10A.
5. The harness I got with my W&S liner (purchased new a week ago) had a 15A fuse in it. Check that. I have other harnesses from WnS. That's my next course of action. I guess I went the lazy route first.
6. Trace the wires on this harness front to back, is it possible there's a cut that's permitting it to short? When dealing with used bikes that have previously installed non-OEM wiring, unless it was installed by a wiring-anal person like myself, I almost always remove it entirely and start from scratch. When I add wiring you'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from the OEM harnesses. I solder everything, zip ties out the wazoo. Most others don't and what you end up with is a rats-nest of under/over sized multi-colored nightmare. It's not the cleanest install, but I've seen way worse before.

As I said, I'll just remove that existing harness and install a true WnS one with the 15A inline fuse. But I'm still stumped as to what stopped it from working. 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Riderdrumr said:

This past weekend I went to work on the things I needed to do using the info I learned on my last post. Here it is in a nutshell:

 

Took panels off and saw there's an existing pigtail for a battery tender wired directly to the battery with an in-line fuse. PERFECT! Using the parts I just ordered, I'll extend that line up to where the seat meets the tank. Done! Tested it with my new wireless temp controller from Warmnsafe. Works! Now I'm ready for my Monday morning ride. Fast forward to this AM: Hooked it all up and got riding. Nice and toasty!....for about 10 mins and then noticed it all went dead. UGH!!! Pull off to the side of the road. Nope, all connections under the seat are still connected. Decided to just bear with it all the way to work. Got there, albeit very cold, took the right side panel off, and  checked the fuse. Surely it's a blown 10A fuse or maybe it's a 15A intact and there's another issue. Nope! It's an perfect 10A. So, wth??? What could it be? My stuff has no tears. The lines have no kinks, pinches, or cuts. It's all fairly new gear. I'm stumped.

 

Dave 

 

 

Morning Dave

 

How much heated gear are you running? 10 amp is pretty low for heated gear if more than one item. Your failure after 10 minutes is typical of a blown fuse.

 

That 10 amp fuse might look good but they can look good to the eye but still have an open, so test  it (or just replace it). Use a voltmeter or 12v test light to see if the fused harness still has 12v available. 

 

If the fuse is open (internally blown)  then you will need to install a larger fuse (like 15 amp).

[Riderdrumr]

23 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

Morning Dave

 

How much heated gear are you running? 10 amp is pretty low for heated gear if more then one item. Your failure after 10 minutes is typical of a blown fuse.

 

That 10 amp fuse might look good but they can look good to the eye but still have an open, so test  it (or just replace it). Use a voltmeter or 12v test light to see if the fused harness still has 12v available. 

 

If the fuse is open (internally blown)  then you will need to install a larger fuse (like 15 amp).

 

I was running a jacket liner and gloves. That's it. Luckily in NJ right now heated pant liners and socks aren't necessary. I'll try a 15A fuse first. If that blows, I'll change out the entire harness.

 

[RPondaRoad]

When I started reading your post I thought: "I hope he changed the fuse".  Your's was a 10a.  My original was a 7.5 which I changed out.  

But here's a thought...  If you're into the battery compartment, why not install a W&S harness.  It should come fused @15a and is designed to handle the current for heated gear.  And, it should be long enough without adding another point of failure (extension) to get it across your bike.  Then, look at the wiring on your SAE pigtail.  Is it heavy duty enough to support a jacket and gloves pulling the amperage you need?  If not, you may want to change it to something more hardy and put in the right fuse for the job.  

I did this work on my RT last winter, only I ran two harnesses...one for me, one for my pillion.  And, I now have my heavy duty SAE pigtail fused at 15a as a backup that can be used with my SAE/DC adapter. 

 

I hope you find that the problem is as simple as this and not with the controller/jacket or gloves. 

[Pappy35]

From the W&S site: 110W jacket liner is 7.8 amps and their glove liners are 0.7 amps for each. That's 9.2 amps which is pretty close to the limit of 10 amps.  Their big winter gloves are 1.3 amps EACH. If the existing harness is narrow gage, like 18 or larger (numerically, which is thinner wire), resistance in the wires themselves might add a little more to the total current draw.

 

Depending on the gear you are using (I forgot what kind you have) and that you might crank it up to speed up the warm up like I do, I'd say that's most likely the source of the issue. If I were you, I'd first check the specs for whatever gear you have, add a 20%-30% buffer on top of that, then pick out a fuse that's bigger (15 amps works for me but I'd go to 20 if I ever add gloves or other gear to it).

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Pappy35 said:

From the W&S site: 110W jacket liner is 7.8 amps and their glove liners are 0.7 amps for each. That's 9.2 amps which is pretty close to the limit of 10 amps.  Their big winter gloves are 1.3 amps EACH. If the existing harness is narrow gage, like 18 or larger (numerically, which is thinner wire), resistance in the wires themselves might add a little more to the total current draw.

 

 

Afternoon Pappy35

 

 In a series circuit, adding more resistors (adding series resistance)  increases total resistance and thus lowers current draw not increases current draw.

 

More likely, at idle, the motorcycle  system voltage dropped & that would effect amps.

 

I don't know at what voltage the  W&S 110W jacket liner  (7.8 amps)  and their glove liners  (0.7 amps each) was figured at but a lot of heated gear amps-required  & watts-output  are figured at 13 volts.

 

 

 

 

[Pappy35]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Pappy35

 

 In a series circuit, adding more resistors (adding series resistance)  increases total resistance and thus lowers current draw not increases current draw.

 

I barely passed DC circuits in college. I bang blocks together for a living (mechanical eng) so electrons aren't something I have a firm grasp of.

[AndyS]

13 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 In a series circuit, adding more resistors (adding series resistance)  increases total resistance and thus lowers current draw not increases current draw.

 

 

True, but in this case with heated gear, aren't these items all wired / connected in parallel. If not the voltage getting  to each one is going to be pretty pathetic.

[dirtrider]

59 minutes ago, AndyS said:

 

True, but in this case with heated gear, aren't these items all wired / connected in parallel. If not the voltage getting  to each one is going to be pretty pathetic.

 

Morning Andy

 

True the 2 garments (jacket liner & combined  2 gloves) are wired in parallel but that is only for the end load. 

 

My response was in relation to " If the existing harness is narrow gage, like 18 or larger (numerically, which is thinner wire), resistance in the wires themselves might add a little more to the total current draw."  --  This  resistance would be added to the circuit in series not parallel. 

[AndyS]

Right DR. The voltage drop along narrow CSA feeder cable will indeed contribute to a 'series' load.

[Riderdrumr]

All fixed! The 10A fuse I thought was bad was actually the Aux lights fuse. I found the fuse for the tender deeper inside the bike. THAT fuse was blown. Took time today to remove the tender harness and replace it with a dedicated line from warmnsafe that is designed for a 20A fuse. I think I'm all set and I got to see how it was all routed and cleaned up the wires. It always helps to stop assuming things, roll-up your sleeves, get in there and make it right.

 

Thanks for all your help!

[WBinDE]

 

Quote

Depending on the gear you are using (I forgot what kind you have) and that you might crank it up to speed up the warm up like I do, I'd say that's most likely the source of the issue.

 

Um, no. The controller is a binary device, it just turns the gear on or off, that's it. Cranking it up just keeps it on longer. Just like turning the thermostat to 85 doesn't heat the house any faster than turning it to 75.

[strataj]

The controller is a rheostat.

 

 

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, strataj said:

The controller is a rheostat.

 

 

 

Afternoon  strataj

 

Most newer controllers are not simple  rheostats (that is real old technology), most newer controllers (last 20 years or so) are  pulse width modulated (on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off, etc). The longer the on-time verses the off-time the hotter the garment gets.

 

The upside on the modern pulse width controller is excellent precision heat control & much less heat to disipate. The downside to the modern pulse width controller is the on pulse is always at full current so the supply circuit sees full garment load even on a low setting (just doesn't see the load being on for a long time between the off pulses)