2002 R1150rt Clutch Replacement

[DerekK]

Hi All, New to the group. 

I am getting ready to open up my R1150RT to grease the splines. Bike is currently at 33K. While I am in there, I figure I will do the clutch components. Do any have any experiences or recemmendations of anything else that maybe worthwhile along with any good techniques ? Any help is appreciated? 

 

Regards

and Thanks Derek 

[szurszewski]

Just to be clear, you’re going to pull transmission just to grease the spines? Is there a reason you’re doing this? 

[AndyS]

Hi Derek, Why are you going to rip the bike in half at such a low mileage?

You can see if you have a potential 'ticking bomb' by inspecting the gearbox input shaft backlash by viewing it through the starter motor hole (once the starter motor has been removed). If you would like info on doing this, please ask and we will furnish you with the appropriate information.

(I know yours is a 2004 but the same proceedure applies),

This is what DR wrote on another post [https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/94383-new-to-me-r1150rt/] 

 

If you will be working on that 2002 1150 bike (I know yours is a 2004 but the same procedure applies),  you might remove the starter, then zip tie the clutch lever to the hand grip, then see if you can reach into the clutch area & rotate the clutch disk on the transmission splines (if you have significant  rotational play of clutch disk to input shaft then suspect that your clutch disk/trans input shaft splines are on borrowed time)  & spline  failure is in your future (this leaves the motorcycle totally without forward drive).

 

 

The 2002 1150RT was the worst offender for failed splines of the 1150 series. Obviously most didn't fail but a number of 2002 bikes did fail. 

 

The time to address the possible failure is before it leaves you dead on the road far from home.

[Jim Moore]

I know everyone loves a winter project, but IMO you're wasting your time. You either have a good one or a bad one. You can determine that using Andy's method above. If you have a bad one you need to pull the bike apart and fix it. No amount of spline lubing will save it. If you have a good one, it's good for a quarter-million miles. There's no need to lube the splines.

[DerekK]

Awesome! thanks for feedback. The bike is driving great!!!.

I was applying logic that having to go in and grease the splines (for some reason I heard between 35 and 40K it was recommended , where I cannot recall.) I would do the upgraded plate to engage the splines. Had a couple of friends way back with the 02 model (like mine) that had the splines fail. I was thinking I would get out ahead of it. Always have been one to go above and beyond with maintenance. ( a little OCD with that respect ) .removing the starter is a 

 

 Andy, If you could send on that info it would be great. Removing the starter is a whole lot easier than splitting the bike and dropping $500+ in parts for piece of mind. 

 

Regards and thank Derek 

[AndyS]

To remove the starter:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/911233/Bmw-R-1150-Rt.html?page=146#manual

 

Every other major service, I remove the starter motor and with a long pipette or very thin artists brush on an extension bar, I make up a mix of molybdenum disulphide powder and suspend it in IPA (alcohol). The I CAREFULLY brush / float it along the upper spline of the input shaft - 1 spline at a time - taking great care not to allow it to drip onto the clutch plate assembly. I rotate the gearbox round by putting it in gear and bumping the back wheel.

YOU DON'T NEED MUCH ON EACH SPLINE!

All of this is a token effort as the problem cannot be hidden. If you have a mis-aligned unit, it will destroy itself.

Like DR says, even if you took it apart, if you didn't put it back together exactly as you took it apart, you probably generate more problems than you solve.

I do not use grease, because it will not move along the shaft. The MOS2 powder suspended in IPA 'wicks' along the shaft and then the IPA evaporates off leaving the lubricating powder to do its work.

Take care not to allow the mixture to migrate down onto the clutch plate.

[Lowndes]

Derek,

 

While you are planning to remove the starter to view and maybe apply some moly to the splines, you might want to consider drilling a weep hole in the clutch slave cylinder housing.  The reason for this is that if/when the slave cyl fails the DOT4 will travel down the clutch rod and destroy the friction plate.  This weep hole can be done without removing anything, or you can back the cyl out to make sure you clear it.  This happened to me three years ago which required a complete clutch job.  Spare yourself the work.  

 

https://goo.gl/photos/QEN3xyQVWXW1jraT6

 

https://goo.gl/photos/WB9DZXksFyRq5mPm8

[Still CAL]

Some interesting info, although six years old. Caution: PG21 due to some strong language, and last three minutes are dated info and probably don't apply anymore.

 

[kioolt]

I replaced my clutch on my 04 RT at 150k.  I can't imagine why you think you need to replace the clutch at only 33k.

[ltljohn]

I have the "Splinal Tap" tool for greasing the splines through the starter hole that was left to me by Mamma Hoon and KMG365.  I will gladly pass it along if you want it.  It is a syringe and a long needle to reach in and apply grease to the splines.    If you want it PM me your address and I will send it along.  Just pass it along if someone else needs it.  Info about the tool is in THIS THREAD

 

[Lowndes]

Esmir makes a clutch hub spline spacer kit to provide 100% spline engagement on stock clutche discs.  It does not work on the Seibenrock clutch discs because the rivet hole carcle is different but you could make one.  It is a simple steel spacer that is installed between the spline hub and clutch disc and comes with the extra length rivets.

[DerekK]

Thanks All, Belated Merry Christmas,

Finally got around to pulliung the starter off and looking in. There seems to be little to no play.

Apart from some dust (asssuming from the clutch) looks OK? It appears to be dry at least.

Can I ask if any off you have similar appearance from your bikes?

 

 

Lowndes, Looked at the doing the weep hole, but the case of the RT prevents me getting good access to the housing to drill the weep hole. 

 

 

Any input is appreciated 

 

Regards

Derek 

[Jim Moore]

Pull in your clutch and tie it off to the handlebar. Then look in that slot and use a long screwdriver to rotate the clutch hub back and forth. You're hoping the hub and that splined shaft rotate in unison, with little or no slop between the two.

[DerekK]

Thanks Jim, 

Couldn`t really get much at the splines. Moving the Friction disk I get around an 1/8 of an inch at the outer circumfrence of the friction plate.

1st photo the is against the splines, rotating the plate downwards. 

2nd photo is spline contact rotating upwards. You can feel a very slight amount of play when rotating the disk. 

 

Hope this makes sense. 

[joeb]

Hi. I have an 03 with 116k on it. no sign of slippage.  And , I dont baby it.

[The Fabricator]

2000 R1150GS 25000 miles.  My disc moves about double that amount.  I doubt the splines have been lubed by the previous owner{s}. 

Lubing is on my list.

I think I will try the 'reach in' technique first, then evaluate before deciding whether to teardown or not.

Edited December 27, 2019 by The Fabricator
clarity

[Jim Moore]

1 hour ago, DerekK said:

Thanks Jim, 

Couldn`t really get much at the splines. Moving the Friction disk I get around an 1/8 of an inch at the outer circumfrence of the friction plate.

1st photo the is against the splines, rotating the plate downwards. 

2nd photo is spline contact rotating upwards. You can feel a very slight amount of play when rotating the disk. 

 

Hope this makes sense. 

 

that's good, man. Just what you're looking for. Button it up and forget about it.

[DerekK]

Awesome, thanks Jim, 

[fatbob]

Derek:

one thing you should do for this RT is replace the clutch slave cylinder.   It is old and when (not if) it fails it trashes your clutch.    Mine failed due to this at 54K last year.    

[DerekK]

Fatbob,

Thanks , I am assuming that your slave cylinder leaked?
Thought about doing the hole drill but looking at how I gain access. 
 

Regards

Derek  

[dirtrider]

On 1/11/2020 at 1:43 AM, DerekK said:

Thought about doing the hole drill but looking at how I gain access. 

  

 

Morning Derek

 

The work around instead of drilling a hole in the case is to simply cut a slot in the slave cylinder gasket. That allows fluid seepage out of the slot. The 1200 bikes don't even use a slave cylinder gasket.

 

 

[fatbob]

There’s a good treatment of the weep hole drilling on this site.   You have to remove the swing arm and exhaust to do it.   It’s easy to replace the slave cylinder at that time too.   Yours is 18 years old, it is time!  Yes I lost a clutch due to leaking slave cylinder.  

[BobW03]

Derek, et al., I had first hand experience with 'Affordable Beemer'. While I do accept the facts his videos are helpfull, he made me believe buying my 03 RT was gauranteed to have clutch issues. I brought it to him with 11k instead of the local BMW dealer. He went on a rant and showed me a failed clutch telling me I will have the same issues. There is a reason he only works on bikes up to 2004, he was a tech at a now closed BMW shop. Anyway I did pull my tranny at 35K and there was nothing wrong. Clutch plate was fine, no wear on the spline, etc. Just a lot of wasted time and effort for me. I even brought the tranny To MAX for verification by a tech. They replaced a seal on the tranny since I had gone that far. I am just an average shade tree mechanic but tackled that job. I sold the 03 with 68K miles and have bought an 11 and now a 16RT. My point is dont believe everything you see or read on the internet.

Edited to give credit to DR who has on multiple times aided me when I had a problem on my 03, some self-inflicted. DR is one person I would trust explicitly for advice

[DerekK]

Thanks DR and all,

With changing the exhaust Can, I got rid of the Catalytic converter, so thinking I might be able to get access from underneath. Might look to remove the slave cylinder, inspect and do the gasket mod at the same time. Anybody have experience of using Beemer Bone yard’s slave cylinder?

I have watched the Affordable Beemer guy, helpful, but certainly has His own bias for sure 😂.

 

Regards

Derek 

[taylor1]

I bought a slave cylinder from BBY @ 60,000 miles ago. 3  bleeds and all is still good . 

I also had a cat. eliminating exhaust on mine when I swapped it out. Can't remember if I took off the can or not.  Was a real pain , but doable.
If memory serves ,  I had to shorten one end of the Allen  

[fatbob]

16 hours ago, taylor1 said:

I bought a slave cylinder from BBY @ 60,000 miles ago. 3  bleeds and all is still good . 

I also had a cat. eliminating exhaust on mine when I swapped it out. Can't remember if I took off the can or not.  Was a real pain , but doable.
If memory serves ,  I had to shorten one end of the Allen  

I bought the BBY slave.   Only have 1 year and 10K on it so can’t vouch for its longevity.    It’s easiest to remove the swingarm to replace the slave.   It’s good to adjust the Swing arm bearings and replace the FD pivot bearings with this operation.   

[awagnon]

Many have posted on this thread that there is no reason to inspect or lube the splines on 1150 BMW bikes.  The splines on my 2002 RT failed at about 40,000 miles.

 

I took a look at the splines on my 2004 1150GS at about 35,000 miles and they were quite worn and would have eventually failed.  I replaced the entire clutch assembly from the crankshaft back on the assumption there was a runout problem.  I continued to raise the rear of the bike every winter for a few years and never saw any more problems.

 

I recently bought a very well kept 2004 RT with only 30,000 miles on the odo for fun.  Even though the 2004 bikes are said to have the least problem with the splines, I went ahead and split the bike in two.  The splines on the transmission input shaft were about 15% worn, but the splines in the clutch disk were barely there and would certainly have failed in the next 5,000-10,000 miles.  I really could not detect excessive flywheel movement as an indicator of worn splines, so I'm a believer of taking a look.  Just my experience.  By the way, I've done this job so many times that I have a six page checklist for the procedure and I can easily do it in a day or two, and I'm no mechanic.

 

Al

[Jim Moore]

12 hours ago, awagnon said:

Many have posted on this thread that there is no reason to inspect or lube the splines on 1150 BMW bikes.  The splines on my 2002 RT failed at about 40,000 miles.

 

I took a look at the splines on my 2004 1150GS at about 35,000 miles and they were quite worn and would have eventually failed.  I replaced the entire clutch assembly from the crankshaft back on the assumption there was a runout problem.  I continued to raise the rear of the bike every winter for a few years and never saw any more problems.

 

I recently bought a very well kept 2004 RT with only 30,000 miles on the odo for fun.  Even though the 2004 bikes are said to have the least problem with the splines, I went ahead and split the bike in two.  The splines on the transmission input shaft were about 15% worn, but the splines in the clutch disk were barely there and would certainly have failed in the next 5,000-10,000 miles.  I really could not detect excessive flywheel movement as an indicator of worn splines, so I'm a believer of taking a look.  Just my experience.  By the way, I've done this job so many times that I have a six page checklist for the procedure and I can easily do it in a day or two, and I'm no mechanic.

 

Al

Sorry to hear that. That's bad luck. I don't think anyone is against inspecting the splines. You can do it through the starter hole in a few minutes. I don't lubing helps though. If you have a good one it will last a very long time, lube or no lube. A bad one will fail around 30K miles, lube or no lube.

[awagnon]

16 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

Sorry to hear that. That's bad luck. I don't think anyone is against inspecting the splines. You can do it through the starter hole in a few minutes. I don't lubing helps though. If you have a good one it will last a very long time, lube or no lube. A bad one will fail around 30K miles, lube or no lube.

 

Don't know if lubing the splines prevents or even slows down the wear.  However, I'd rather find out the splines are toast in my garage than in southern Utah without cell phone coverage.  I could not tell the splines were worn by looking through the starter hole.  They seemed tight until I got them out in daylight.  I put in a new clutch.  I'll take another look in 10,000 miles or so.  It's something to do when it snows here.  While I was there, I replaced the slave cylinder and checked the pivot bearings.  The rears were a little rough, but I kept them until I pull the tranny again.

[Jim Moore]

5 hours ago, awagnon said:

 

Don't know if lubing the splines prevents or even slows down the wear.  However, I'd rather find out the splines are toast in my garage than in southern Utah without cell phone coverage.  I could not tell the splines were worn by looking through the starter hole.  They seemed tight until I got them out in daylight.  I put in a new clutch.  I'll take another look in 10,000 miles or so.  It's something to do when it snows here.  While I was there, I replaced the slave cylinder and checked the pivot bearings.  The rears were a little rough, but I kept them until I pull the tranny again.

Remove the starter, then pull in the clutch and tie the lever to the hand grip. Look in the starter hole and rotate the clutch disk back and forth with a thin screwdriver. Ensure the disk and splines are moving in unison. If the disk can move while the splines stay still you have a problem. You can't see the worn spots, but it's easy to tell once you know what you're looking for. DerekK posted a few pics earlier in the thread. 

 

In any event, good luck with it. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if that happened to me on two different bikes.

[DerekK]

Yeah for sure would be pissed if it happened twice. I be pissed the first time 😂.

Taking another look slave cylinder, I am thinking of drilling an 1/4” down stream of the gasket. Thinking I would drill a 1/16” hole and use a stopper not to go too far. Would be a slight angle but should be able to get It. 

 Opinions welcome. 

Anyone know how thick the casing is holdIng the  cylinder? I am assuming there is a few mm clearance between the rod and cylinder? 
 

Also how much slack is there on the clutch hose? Figure my alternative plan would be to change the cylinder, but I do not want to mess with removing the swing arm etc.... 
 

Regards

Derek 

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, DerekK said:

Yeah for sure would be pissed if it happened twice. I be pissed the first time 😂.

Taking another look slave cylinder, I am thinking of drilling an 1/4” down stream of the gasket. Thinking I would drill a 1/16” hole and use a stopper not to go too far. Would be a slight angle but should be able to get It. 

 Opinions welcome. 

Anyone know how thick the casing is holding the  cylinder? I am assuming there is a few mm clearance between the rod and cylinder?   

 

You need to be VERY careful  in drilling blind as there is a rear trans seal just in front of the front end of the slave cylinder so if you drill just a bit too far forward you can end up with a non repairable oil leak. 
 

Also how much slack is there on the clutch hose? Figure my alternative plan would be to change the cylinder, but I do not want to mess with removing the swing arm etc.... 
 

Regards

Derek 

 

 

Morning  Derek

 

 

Taking another look slave cylinder, I am thinking of drilling an 1/4” down stream of the gasket. Thinking I would drill a 1/16” hole and use a stopper not to go too far. Would be a slight angle but should be able to get It. -- You need to be very/very/very careful in doing this with the slave in place. 

Anyone know how thick the casing is holdIng the  cylinder? I am assuming there is a few mm clearance between the rod and cylinder?-- The rod (push rod) is along ways from the hole that you will be drilling BUT the slave cylinder front sticks into the area that you will be drilling into so you don't want to drill in any farther than JUST breaking through the trans rear cover into the slave hole. You can get an idea on the trans housing thickness by looking at my posted picture above. Best bet is to pull the slave out when drilling so you can see/feel in the trans slave hole.

 

Also how much slack is there on the clutch hose? Figure my alternative plan would be to change the cylinder, but I do not want to mess with removing the swing arm etc--  With a lot of work you can get the salve out without removing the swing arm. It does usually help to remove the rear wheel then move the rear wheel's forward plastic mud guard out of the way so you can better see & access the slave area.

[AndyS]

As per DR's advice. Can I suggest you DON'T do this. We have had more than 1 member that has screwed up by going too deep and in the wrong place.

You don't have a problem at the moment, but the chances are, you will have one afterwards.

This is NOT a job that should be done with the unit in-situ. In fact people have screwed this up even with it in there bench. 

If you are going to do it, I  prefer the cut gasket or relief filed into front flange option.

[The Fabricator]

2000 R1150GS.

I have removed the slave with the swingarm in place.  Remove rear wheel, splash guard, rear shock.  There is a frame member directly above the slave that helps to remove.  I didn't.  I forget why except it was too much trouble.  

As for slack in the slave hose, hardly any.  I didn't bother trying to pull the hose to gain slack.  Too much trouble.  I removed the hose from the slave.  There might be enough slack to pull the slave out enough to cut the gasket.  Don't remember.

I didn't drill a hole; instead cut the gasket.  

The reason I did this is because the rear transmission shaft seal leaked......which revealed itself by oiling the clutch causing it to slip.

I replaced the seal [poorly] which leaked again 1000 miles later.  Since I had cut the gasket, the oil leaked out instead of pooling up the the level necessary to allow oil onto the clutch.

Second seal replacement was easier.  Second time is always easier.

Incidently,  I was able to 'save' the clutch by washing it through the starter hole with a 1/2 can of carburetor cleaner.  I was about 2 miles from home when the slippage occurred.  No slippage so far.

[fatbob]

Guys it’s not that difficult to remove / replace the swing arm!   You need to buy, borrow, or fabricate a special 30 mm socket.   That’s the only special tool required.   I bought a cheap impact socket from autozone and cut the slot in it with a Moto tool.  You can buy the replacement brass pivot bearings that Kirk Johnson has a video on too.  

[DerekK]

Thanks all. If you have a link to the Kirk Johnson  video (sorry for my ignorance).

Thinking about it further, drilling the casing is more risk than reward. 
Without removing the swing arm, do you think it is possible to unbolt the slave cylinder and move it enough to access and cut the gasket?

 

Swingarm bearing and FD feel great. Feel like removing it might open Pandora’s box. 
At least creating a weep hole for the slave cylinder  buys me time. 

 

Joys of using an 18 year old bike for your commuter! 
 

regards

Derek