Loud clutch/transmission rattle

[14TLC]

Hi Everyone

 

I am dealing with the issue of loud clutch/transmission rattle on a 2008 R1200GS. I would like to hear your opinions from your experience about this issue and what to expect. It is louder then the usual/normal rattle. Here are the symptoms and findings so far

 

- The rattle sound is loud and present when the engine is both cold and hot, although much louder when hot

- When clutch lever is pulled with the transmission in neutral the rattle will disappear. Not completely but it sound like normal rattle when clutch lever is pulled

- The clutch bite point is quite high, about 10mm range towards the hand guard

- With transmission in neutral, if I pull and release the clutch lever sharply and quickly all the way to the handlebar, the rattle changes the sound but still present and loud

- With transmission in neutral, if I pull and release the clutch lever sharply and quickly within the range of the bite point, the rattle disappears until next operation with the clutch

- The level of clutch fluid is in the middle between recommended filling level mark and max mark

- There is no issue in shifting gears and finding neutral

- I can't feel any clutch slipping in any gear. The bike pules like a train

- I can feel slight juddering from the clutch at take off. This juddering some times is also present when I let the bike in first gear downhill without throttle applied, just on engine braking. It is difficult to feel it but I think it is present

- I checked the clutch plate thickness from the opening where the starter sits and it is about 5mm, although difficult to get definitive measurement from there

- From the starter opening I can see some oil residues mixed with dirt on the bottom of the housing in the area between the pressure plate and the engine. It seems like it has been collecting for a longer period and not like some significant leak

- Engine seems to be synchronized at idle, above idle and when riding, although I haven't confirmed that with vacuum gauges, I am in process of checking the valves now

- I have checked the transmission oil level before draining and it was correct. The filling and drain plugs don't have magnets so I can't check for collected metal shavings by that way

- The transmission oil is dark grey color as expected color at 20.000 Km change interval. I left it to settle in clean bottle to check for any metal residues

I appreciate your inputs before I dig in and remove the gearbox and clutch for further investigation

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, 14TLC said:

Hi Everyone

 

I am dealing with the issue of loud clutch/transmission rattle on a 2008 R1200GS. I would like to hear your opinions from your experience about this issue and what to expect. It is louder then the usual/normal rattle. Here are the symptoms and findings so far

 

- The rattle sound is loud and present when the engine is both cold and hot, although much louder when hot

- When clutch lever is pulled with the transmission in neutral the rattle will disappear. Not completely but it sound like normal rattle when clutch lever is pulled

- The clutch bite point is quite high, about 10mm range towards the hand guard

- With transmission in neutral, if I pull and release the clutch lever sharply and quickly all the way to the handlebar, the rattle changes the sound but still present and loud

- With transmission in neutral, if I pull and release the clutch lever sharply and quickly within the range of the bite point, the rattle disappears until next operation with the clutch

- The level of clutch fluid is in the middle between recommended filling level mark and max mark

- There is no issue in shifting gears and finding neutral

- I can't feel any clutch slipping in any gear. The bike pules like a train

- I can feel slight juddering from the clutch at take off. This juddering some times is also present when I let the bike in first gear downhill without throttle applied, just on engine braking. It is difficult to feel it but I think it is present

- I checked the clutch plate thickness from the opening where the starter sits and it is about 5mm, although difficult to get definitive measurement from there

- From the starter opening I can see some oil residues mixed with dirt on the bottom of the housing in the area between the pressure plate and the engine. It seems like it has been collecting for a longer period and not like some significant leak

- Engine seems to be synchronized at idle, above idle and when riding, although I haven't confirmed that with vacuum gauges, I am in process of checking the valves now

- I have checked the transmission oil level before draining and it was correct. The filling and drain plugs don't have magnets so I can't check for collected metal shavings by that way

- The transmission oil is dark grey color as expected color at 20.000 Km change interval. I left it to settle in clean bottle to check for any metal residues

I appreciate your inputs before I dig in and remove the gearbox and clutch for further investigation

 

 

Morning  14TLC

 

It sounds like typical neutral gear rattle but without actually hearing it then it is difficult to give you any idea on how normal it is or isn't.

 

How evenly the engine idles has a lot to do with the harshness of the rattle sound so a low or uneven engine idle will make normal neutral gear rattle sound a lot worse.  

 

What happens if you raise the engine idle speed slightly using the twist grip (does the rattle sound decrease or sound less annoying?)  

 

Some wear on the clutch parts can also add to the neutral gear rattle sound. 

 

Have you checked your throttle body plastic cams for signs of cracking, if not then you should probably do that. 

[Rougarou]

Does it sound like this:

 

 

 

If so, source yourself another tranny if you want the sound gone.

 

 

[14TLC]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:43 PM, Living the Dream said:

Does it sound like this:

 

 

 

If so, source yourself another tranny if you want the sound gone.

 

 

In my case it does not sound that bad. It is just rattle without that grinding like component in the sound.

[14TLC]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:06 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Morning  14TLC

 

It sounds like typical neutral gear rattle but without actually hearing it then it is difficult to give you any idea on how normal it is or isn't.

 

How evenly the engine idles has a lot to do with the harshness of the rattle sound so a low or uneven engine idle will make normal neutral gear rattle sound a lot worse.  

 

What happens if you raise the engine idle speed slightly using the twist grip (does the rattle sound decrease or sound less annoying?)  

 

Some wear on the clutch parts can also add to the neutral gear rattle sound. 

 

Have you checked your throttle body plastic cams for signs of cracking, if not then you should probably do that. 

 

Hi dirtrider

 

Here are two videos available for download. Taken while engine is running in neutral. You can hear the rattle with and without clutch applied.

 

The first video is from the engine started cold while running at about 1350 to 1400 RPM

https://we.tl/t-0Vo9H6QQj3

 

The second video is from the engine running at normal operating temperature. You can see the synchronization on the sync tool, measuring the differential vacuum in mbar. This being when the idle step motors are controlled by the ECU, but it is quite the same with idle step motors hold in position. The video has been taken before cable lift adjustment and that is why the right cylinder is pulling slightly. But the rattle is there even after complete synchronization and valve adjustment

https://we.tl/t-saClQevQdR

 

On further investigation I have noticed that the idle stop screws are out of the factory adjustment and the paint/glue has been broken. At least they are close to each other. A 0.5 % difference in the steps of the idle step motors

 

Occasionally I can hear a "clack" sound from the clutch/gearbox area when slightly raising the RPM from idle. After this "clack" sound the rattle will quiet down.

[dirtrider]

  
Morning  14TLC

 

Here are two videos available for download. Taken while engine is running in neutral. You can hear the rattle with and without clutch applied--   
  Unfortunately my computer security  software won't allow me to access those files so I can't listen to them. See if you can PM them to me.

 

If the rattle is the SAME with & without the clutch engaged then that sort of points to something forward of the transmission (or the clutch is not totally releasing)-- What does it sound like with clutch disengaged but with trans in gear? This will stop any trans shaft spinning due to a  dragging clutch. If the noise is STILL there then your rattle is forward of the trans & more than likely in the clutch or slave cylinder/slave bearing area.

  
The second video is from the engine running at normal operating temperature. You can see the synchronization on the sync tool, measuring the differential vacuum in mbar. This being when the idle step motors are controlled by the ECU, but it is quite the same with idle step motors hold in position. The video has been taken before cable lift adjustment and that is why the right cylinder is pulling slightly. But the rattle is there even after complete synchronization and valve adjustment -- As mentioned I can't access the data so possibly post the numbers referred to above. 

  
On further investigation I have noticed that the idle stop screws are out of the factory adjustment and the paint/glue has been broken. At least they are close to each other. A 0.5 % difference in the steps of the idle step motors -- This can definitely effect smooth engine idle smoothness (what is each side stepper count at hot engine curb idle?) Have you looked for cracking in the Throttle Body cams?
  
Occasionally I can hear a "clack" sound from the clutch/gearbox area when slightly raising the RPM from idle. After this "clack" sound the rattle will quiet down. -- I'm not sure what to make of this, sounds like something is centering or seating. Some possibilities on this-- Tell us what happens when you do the clutch engaged/not engaged with trans in gear for the dis-engaged part of the test?

 

With hot engine/transmission try putting bike on center stand, then put trans in 1st gear, then zip tie clutch lever pulled in to handlebar, now spin rear wheel (can you hear anything odd?)

[14TLC]

Hi dirtrider,

 

The video files are large, 92MB and 330MB , so I can't send them to you on PM. I don't like to compress them since it will loose the video/audio quality. Can you suggest a file sharing service to which you have access (dropbox, MEGA etc.) so I can upload them there. It will be best to see and hear them to have clear picture what is going on. In the last part of the second video you can hear the rattle present at idle and also off idle with transmission in neutral and clutch engaged. It is less louder off idle but present.

 

There is little to no rattle when the clutch is disengaged.  And there is no sound difference with clutch disengaged and transmission in neutral and in gear 

 

The throttle body cams are not cracked, damaged or blocked by dirt.

 

I can't see the actual stepper count. I am not using GS-911. I can only see them as opening in %. Do you know what is the total step count? We can then calculate.

 

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, 14TLC said:

Hi dirtrider,

 

The video files are large, 92MB and 330MB , so I can't send them to you on PM. I don't like to compress them since it will loose the video/audio quality. Can you suggest a file sharing service to which you have access (dropbox, MEGA etc.) so I can upload them there. It will be best to see and hear them to have clear picture what is going on. In the last part of the second video you can hear the rattle present at idle and also off idle with transmission in neutral and clutch engaged. It is less louder off idle but present.

 

There is little to no rattle when the clutch is disengaged.  And there is no sound difference with clutch disengaged and transmission in neutral and in gear 

 

The throttle body cams are not cracked, damaged or blocked by dirt.

 

I can't see the actual stepper count. I am not using GS-911. I can only see them as opening in %. Do you know what is the total step count? We can then calculate.

 

 

 

Afternoon 14TLC

 

The highest that I have trapped on the stepper counts is 204 counts but that might not be max they can go, it  might  just be the highest that they were commanded.

 

I'm actually more interested in the side to side equality more than than the actual stepper pintle opening.

 

I do not have  any large file transfer accounts that I can use for private transfers. All my large file transfers are for work & they go through my work server system.