Harley

[JamesW]

Had an interesting experience the other day at a nearby Harley dealer.  It's been many years since I paid much attention to HDs so, out of curiosity, I decided to have a look and I must say I was impressed with their overall build quality and HD has absolutely perfected the 45 degree vee twin design with 4 valves per cylinder and even dual spark.  The dealer let me sit on several bikes while he held onto the handle bars to allow me to put both feet on the floor boards so I could get a feel for the HD riding position.  Well, let me back up a bit.  I rode in on my R1100RSL.  The first question the store owner asked me was how I can find the riding position (ergonomics) at all comfortable on my BMW.  I explained that I have a slightly herniated disk in my lower lumbar region and that a leaned forward riding position relieves the pressure on my lower back.  I also explained that at 60+ mph with the windscreen lowered the constant wind blast on my face shield effectively relieves any strain on my arms and wrists and I can very comfortably ride for hours stopping only for gas if I wish.  Then his eyes got big when I told him I was going to be 76 next month.  By this time a couple of customers had begun listening to the discussion.  These folks were, I think, honestly curious and had had little interaction with someone that has always ridden sport touring motorcycles. Anyway, I was much impressed with his bikes especially the Heritage Softail as it was indeed beauty on two wheels.  I was also impressed with how HD has managed to effectively control the vibes produced by these huge displacement motors.

 

Then the subject got around to would I be interested in owning one of Milwaukee's famous and yes we take trade-ins.  I told him that the beemer was the bike I'll be buried with but I also own a pristine low mileage FJR1300A.  The subject immediately moved away from any trade-in discussion which I can well understand as in the HD dealership has their image to consider and, let's face it, who goes into an HD place of business looking for an FJR? lol..lol.. Then we went outside and the guys began asking many questions about my RS like where is the back axle?  Then their eyes really got big when I explained how the front telelever suspension works.  They really questioned how the riding position could ever be comfortable on any sport touring machine and I think for them it never would be just because of a mindset more than anything else.  I guess the same could be said for me to a degree when I look at a cruiser.

 

Anyway, it was an interesting afternoon and I was much impressed with HD and their beautiful motorcycles especially that Heritage.  I declined the test ride offer because I had no intention of buying a bike and I didn't want to waste any more of the guys time.  Would like to ride one just to say I did.  Never have rode a Harley and I admit to being curious.  I've always been afraid I might try to stuff one through a curve with the resulting fire works as body parts ground out.  Might not be pretty for me or the motorcycle.  All this said I can see why so many people swear by Milwaukee's finest.  One could do worse.

[TEWKS]

Go back and ride one, it's free. The sales guy doesn't really care if you buy. ($ actually he does $) But, at least it shows his boss, he's doing something.  I'd try the Road King over a Heritage myself. 

[Marty Hill]

Heritage Classic was my first moto.  Then a friend let me ride his RT around the block.

[Rinkydink]

Yep, you should go ride one. I agree, + 1 on the Road King. 
I was the same with Moto Guzzi at a dealership in Edwardsville IL recently. Never ridden one, still haven’t. 

[JamesW]

1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

Go back and ride one, it's free. The sales guy doesn't really care if you buy. ($ actually he does $) But, at least it shows his boss, he's doing something.  I'd try the Road King over a Heritage myself. 

 

Actually it was the owner of the store that I was talking with and he impressed me with his knowledge about HD and he seemed to have much interest in my bike especially in my riding style preference.  Good advice to test ride a King.  I think the King has a bit more rear suspension travel.  Apparently HD calmed the inherent vibration in the big twin with counter balancers which some of the older HD aficionados were offended by so HD purposely put back some of the vibes in certain models.  I find this most interesting.  Maybe I will take him up on his test ride offer after all.

[fourteenfour]

the new Heritage is to me better than the current Road King, it is over a hundred pounds lighter with a better suspension. The advantages of the Road King are dual front disc brakes and better luggage, but that isn't worth a hundred pounds in my book.  I owned a 17 Road King, M8 with the improved Showa suspension components, but it still is a pig

[JamesW]

Yeah, and we have those white wall tires, COOL!

[TEWKS]

3 hours ago, CommuterChris said:

The advantages of the Road King are dual front disc brakes but it still is a pig

 

Assuming, you mean Hog?  Can't say I've been studying Harley's line of bikes in detail the last few years but, thought the suspension on the touring models was way ahead of the softail setup.

Will admit, there's a 1940s cool factor with the new Heritage that's hard not to like. 

 

[Bill_Walker]

6 hours ago, JamesW said:

Would like to ride one just to say I did.

Rentals of H-Ds are pretty widely available, if you don't want to feel guilty wasting the dealer's time.  And they're usually discounted this time of year.  Back in 2001, I rented a Road King (the only model I was interested in at the time) for a day and decided I liked it enough to have one alongside my Ducati ST4 for more "relaxed", "smell the roses" riding.  A few years later, between the punishment of my back to meager suspension travel and realizing that I'm not really into "smell the roses" riding (did you know it's possible to hang off a Road King?), I swapped it for my R1150RT and never went back.

[Bill_Walker]

3 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Can't say I've been studying Harley's line of bikes in detail the last few years but, thought the suspension on the touring models was way ahead of the softail setup.

They completely redesigned the softails for last year or the year before, and felt the rear suspension was so much improved they did away with the Dyna line entirely.  I haven't ridden one.  Back when I got my RK in '01, the better rear suspension, dual front disks, and greater published lean angles were my reasons for looking at a Road King over a Heritage Softail.

[RandyShields]

Interesting thread.  I had a Road King and an Ultra Classic before moving to my first RT in 2002.  Agree they are beautiful machines.  In fact, I would occasionally find myself heading out to the garage late at night to admire their lines.  The Ultra was also extremely comfortable for long rides, and I did my first Iron Butt ride on it.  But ultimately, I found the negatives outweighed the eye candy appeal, such as heavy weight, insufficient suspension and acceleration that was not up to what I wanted (this was before some of the larger V twins today).  As for smoothness, I believe the Softail is counterbalanced, which eliminates most of the vibration.  For the Road King and other touring models, the engines are still rubber mounted.  That lets them shake a bit at idle, but it smooths out after a few mph.  I found the vibration at idle problematic for looking at a gps when stopped.  These observations are 20 years old, so others who have HDs now, or have had them more recently, might have more up to date info or experiences.

[szurszewski]

2 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

Rentals of H-Ds are pretty widely available, if you don't want to feel guilty wasting the dealer's time.  And they're usually discounted this time of year.  Back in 2001, I rented a Road King (the only model I was interested in at the time) for a day and decided I liked it enough to have one alongside my Ducati ST4 for more "relaxed", "smell the roses" riding.  A few years later, between the punishment of my back to meager suspension travel and realizing that I'm not really into "smell the roses" riding (did you know it's possible to hang off a Road King?), I swapped it for my R1150RT and never went back.

 

I was going to suggest the same thing.

 

James - when you get tired of all the wet around January/February, fly down to Vegas and rent one for a couple of days. I did that last January (2018) and it was a blast. I think the rental was discounted to $79 a day if I did three days. I had airmiles for the flight and stayed with friends, so the whole trip cost me about $300, but even if I'd had to pay for a flight those can be had super cheap.

 

I'd putted around the block on Harley here and there but never really ridden one. Very different from the standard and sport touring motorcycles I'm used to (had to keep reminding myself it was a fool's errand to try to put much weight on my feet or stand a little over bumps), but fun in its own way. 

 

 

[Ponch]

10 hours ago, TEWKS said:

Go back and ride one, it's free. The sales guy doesn't really care if you buy. ($ actually he does $) But, at least it shows his boss, he's doing something.  I'd try the Road King over a Heritage myself. 

It's 100lbs difference. A friend that used to own San Jose BMW has a heritage 114 with the torque cam and dyno tuned. Something like 120ft;lbs and 105hp. He says it's fun to ride. He still rides Beemers though. His favorite was a K1600GT. I think he has a GS now. 

[Antimatter]

You can also wait for a demo day.  I prefer not to waste the sales person's time, and will wait until the dealership has a manufacturer demo truck there.

I test-rode the HD Road Glide CVO at AMI Expo just to say I'd tried it (had never ridden an HD before).  I get the appeal of HD, but the CVO is a $40,000 bike that (in my opinion) has 75% of the ride of new Goldwing.  I too find the 'feet first' riding position of negative rather than a positive, so the whole cruiser thing isn't for me.

[wichitagreg]

To the OP:  You said "... I decided to have a look and I must say I was impressed with their overall build quality and HD has absolutely perfected the 45 degree vee twin design with 4 valves per cylinder and even dual spark."

 

There are design or engineering problems with this new M8 motor that came out in the 2017 model year.  Jury is still out if the 2020's are afflicted. Some (mine included) will fail to scavenge the oil out of the sump under the crank shaft and will then foam the oil, resulting in very high engine temps and ultimately damage.  HD fails to officially admit there is a problem and continues to put band-aids on broken bikes.  My 2018 Heritage was beautiful and ran very nice till it didn't.

[JamesW]

Very interesting info for sure and thanks to all.  I've given this much thought and I think for me I better stick with what I know that works for me.  I really don't see how the HD riding position can ever be a good thing for my lower back and this is a non issue on my RS.  My day trip to the HD store was a smidge over 100 miles down and back.  Not a long ride particularly but when I got home I felt as good as I did before I left and I enjoyed a few really great curves in the pavement as well.  Long and short is BMW motorcycles just fit.  So, long and short is no sense in trying to reinvent the wheel at this stage of the game.  That said HD does make some beauties no question and I can understand their appeal. 

 

I also own a '10 FJR and even it doesn't fit quite like my BMW.  It feels like I'm not really part of the bike more like I'm riding on the bike rather than in it if that makes sense.  The FJR is just all about the motor and nothing wrong with that particularly.  I still miss my first beemer a new '77 R75/7.

 

[Hosstage]

In response to the op and questioning whether it is normal to have beer at the dealerships during open houses.

No.

Maybe.

 

Yes.

Definitely yes. I've been to more than one, including this summer, beer for sale and plenty of it.

In fact, a couple of them here have Thursday ride-in parties, and they are sponsored by a local beer company.

[James Barrett]

The Softails have the counter-balanced engine which basically eliminates vibrations.   As mentioned, the Road King does not have the total balanced engine and provides some shaking.  The HD Old Corps needs that shaking.

 

The good thing about HD is that they can be easily modified.  If you like the forward leaning position HD surely has some accessory handlebars that would help.  They should have a sitting test area somewhere in the shop.

Edited January 28, 2020 by James Barrett
sp correction

[AZgman]

HD and beer goes together like strippers and dollar bills!

[JamesW]

And the thread lives on and on and.......  Good comparison in February Rider Mag on HD Road Glide vs Indian Challenger.  I think I would go for the Indian.  The Challenger just seems to be much more refined and at 100cc less displacement it will out pull the HD by a bunch.  Going to pay Pro Caliber in Vancouver, WA a visit this spring and say hi to Smoaks and check out the Indians.

 

Speaking of Smoaks.  In one of his recent videos he launched into a dissertation on what he thinks of all the un-necessary whistles and bells on today's MCs that are there just to promote sales to the techno geeks that seem to have come out of the woodwork as of late.  My feelings exactly.  If I got to have gizmos like hill start, cruise control and  traction control to mention but a few count me out.  I mean it!  Think what a wonderful world it would be without the internet.

[Rinkydink]

Indian is kicking HD’s rear across the board. 

[Hosstage]

1 hour ago, Rinkydink said:

Indian is kicking HD’s rear across the board. 

 

Not in total sales. I don't have specific numbers for Indian, they don't seem to release them generally, but I doubt it is anywhere near the 228,000 that HD sold last year.

[JamesW]

The article in Rider mag said that Indian sales are only 10% of HD numbers.  Hey, maybe a 45 degree V-twin sounds better than a 60 degree?  I can't believe anyone would want a huge cruiser that only has 2.1" of rear suspension travel like the HD has when the Challenger has more than double the HD travel.  the article said that if you hit a road bump or pot hole with the HD it will actually attempt to throw you off the bike.  I will just never ever understand the attraction.

I've never ridden an HD and I doubt I ever will.  How can I live with myself?  Answer:  Easy!

[Hosstage]

If I have to explain, well, you know...

The loyalty factor cannot be ruled out with HD. 117 years of continuos production, verses 52 for Indian, then at least three different companies owning the brand after that, including one foreign based company, in India coincidentally, that did not make V-Twin bikes. Owners of original Indians, past and present, do not really consider the new ones as actual Indians. And many disgruntled Polaris product owners will not buy one, even if a better product than HD.

To be honest, I find the Challenger a bit ugly. Terrible side view treatment, the fairing looks incomplete, the Indianhead on the skinny front fender rather comical. And I'm not a RoadGlide fan, which is what the Challenger is mimicking, but HD does it better.

 

[Pappy35]

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this show as I don't really like either brand but, that is fookin' hysterical!

[Rinkydink]

11 hours ago, Hosstage said:

 

Not in total sales. I don't have specific numbers for Indian, they don't seem to release them generally, but I doubt it is anywhere near the 228,000 that HD sold last year.

Let me clarify. First, I am not in the cruiser demographic in any way. 

 

i was referring to Indian’s engine, suspension, and brake tech not total sales. Especially engine. They are pushing the envelope far beyond the sixty five horsepower, 2” (crappy) rear suspension travel and “stellar” brake tech of the HDs. HD’s idea of a major update isn’t quite major. Don’t even get me started on the flat-track side of things......

[Hosstage]

But looks count much more than performance! C'mon man, get with the program!

[Rinkydink]

3 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

But looks count much more than performance! C'mon man, get with the program!

The chrome factor. 

[realshelby]

Depends on your perspective. If I wanted to blow some money on a cruiser, I suspect I would pick the Indian over the Harley without a second thought. But I come from a riding background, not a cruiser background. I think, and this is stereotyping at its best, those interested in the Harley are thinking image first. Outstanding dealer network second. Maybe chrome accessories third. Suspension travel and engine power way down on the list. Honestly, if you think a Screamin' Eagle engine kit makes big power, do you really want anything more than to say "I got the Screamin' Eagle kit" on my H-D? Cause they really don't make that much power. 

 

 

[Pappy35]

I would never, NEVER, buy a vehicle that I need to spend thousands more just to to get the full potential out of the engine. My first thought on learning about "Stage" kits was: "Really? You expect me to fork out four grand (or whatever) to make the engine perform like it should straight from the factory? Your customers must be a bunch of rubes."

 

I'd buy a HD and every single time I threw a leg over I'd think about that. It would drive me crazy. It's the only vehicle I can think of whose manufacturer purposely builds it to a lower standard in order to pry more money out of their customers.

[Ponch]

5 minutes ago, Pappy35 said:

I would never, NEVER, buy a vehicle that I need to spend thousands more just to to get the full potential out of the engine. My first thought on learning about "Stage" kits was: "Really? You expect me to fork out four grand (or whatever) to make the engine perform like it should straight from the factory? Your customers must be a bunch of rubes."

 

I'd buy a HD and every single time I threw a leg over I'd think about that. It would drive me crazy. It's the only vehicle I can think of whose manufacturer purposely builds it to a lower standard in order to pry more money out of their customers.

My view is that if I have to modify a bike much, I bought the wrong bike. This is especially true of the engine. Stock is more reliable period. In that vein, the Challenger is the better bike, but it's heavy and costs 29k. I'd rather get a K1600B if I was spending that much scarole on something in that category.  A RT is a bargain in comparison to either. 

[JamesW]

It must be all about status.  I mean what else could it be?  I'll never understand it and I really don't want to come to think of it.  

 

It was two summers ago I was headed home from NE Washington and was making my way through Portland, OR on the I205 in heavy traffic that was moving along at about 75 MPH in the inside lane.  I was on my FJR just going with the flow and slowly overtaking a group of HD riders when suddenly these guys began moving into my lane and in effect surrounding me.  I didn't think much about this until they began to attempt to share my lane in an antagonistic way.  I immediately took evasive measures and put some distance between me and them, which wasn't too difficult, this while in heavy traffic at speed.  At least they had the good sense not to attempt to follow me.  Anyway, this little episode made a lasting impression on me and I now immediately get my defenses up when I encounter a group of what is commonly referred to as biker types.  

 

Nope, I'll never own an HD and somehow I'll manage to live with that decision I have no doubt and somehow I think be the better for it.

 

 

[fourteenfour]

ya'll really do not understand stage kits, yes they unlock more potential from the engine but in no shape or form are any of the Harley big twins under powered. These kits like the wealth of other accessories allow owners to customize to their heart's content without having to buy a new motorcycle. Letting them upgrade the motor if they want more from the engine to changing out seats, windshields, or just layering on the chrome. The simple fact is, Harley Davidson offers owners the ability to customize their motorcycles with parts back by warranty from the company that made the bike. With so many choices you can pretty much remake your bike every few years without having to buy a new one.

  

Hell, most BMW dealers barely stock optional seats for the bikes sold let even top cases. Indian's accessory catalog makes Harley's look cheap in price. I do not believe the Challenger or any Indian is made better than a Harley. I have owned two Harley Davidson motorcycles and work with some others who own them too. The two owners of Indian's have their complaints and to be up front listening to them was enough to skip the brand. Throw in the Challenger has issues that are very similar to issues the FTR had; out of balance cylinders and electrical gremlins, I am in no hurry to ride the Challenger. I will, but fit and finish from the one I looked at pales next to Harley.

[Ponch]

Harley has fit and finish over any bike, but that's it. I still have my 2009 RT and haven't had to modify the engine yet. If I need to, it's time for another bike. From what I understand, Polaris makes some of the most reliable motorcycles with the victory and that's what the challenger really is. For me, the stop with a HD is the suspension and lack of travel and sophistication in function. There's only so much that can be done with 2-3" of travel and with multiple back fusions, I'll skip that exercise and yes I've ridden HDs. 

[JamesW]

Well, not intending to criticize HD for fit and finish but to my eye my R1100RSL at least equals HD minus the chrome but.."if it don't go chrome it" pretty much says it all where HD is concerned, at least imo.  

 

Also, specs don't lie and the Indian Challenger just blows HD out of the water.  Find a copy of the latest Rider mag and read for yourself.  Not intending to knock Harley but I think one gets more bang for the buck with Indian.  That's also the conclusion reached by Rider.  "The 2020 Road Glide is better than ever, but the Challenger Limited surpasses it".

 

[Antimatter]

I've had a fair number of conversations with men who ride HD, and the thing I hear most often is, 'I want to ride the same bike my grandpa/dad/uncle/older brother rode/rides.  He's the coolest guy I know, and I want to experience the same things he did/does.'  Initially, I thought that was a silly reason for buying a particular motorcycle, but then I reflected that I had some pretty silly reasons for owning the bikes I own.  Heck, anything outside of a used Toyota Corolla or Honda Accord isn't practical, especially not a vehicle where you're 30x more likely to be injured in the event of an accident.  I haven't spoken to many lady HD riders, but from listening to a some podcasts it seems that HD is the is considered a premium brand and is desirable for the same reason as Coach bags, or Manolo Blahnik shoes - i.e. a demonstration of taste and personal success.

As far as the hop-ups and accessories, my understanding is that is the avenue for the dealership to make its money.  We can all use the internet for shopping so its easy to find the right motorcycle for the right price and have it shipped, or do a 'fly and ride', so making money on actual motorcycle sales is becoming harder and harder for brick and mortar dealerships.  HD requires their dealers to spend a lot of coin on location and stock, and the 'chrome consultant' is an important part of making that dealer model work.  Which is one reason I'm kind of dubious about HD's non-cruiser models.  I worry that the dealers won't promote them because it doesn't give them an opportunity to charge of upgrades and add-ons (and installation), both as the bike type and the customer type don't really buy that sort of thing from a dealership.

Finally, on hating a bike because you dislike the riders- I'm going through something similar right now as I'm looking at the new Gold Wing.  I test rode it at AIM and loved it, but the GW community is the largest bunch of bitchy old men you've ever met.  The slightest thing wrong or perceived wrong seems to provoke screaming to the high heavens about Honda's evil ways or how this bike isn't as good as my 1977 model that never let me down.  Above and beyond the usual internet complaining.  For me, it's like trying to appreciate Hitler's watercolors or Harvey Weinstein's movies; are you obligated to hate a thing because the people or persons associated with it have done bad stuff?  I've met some real a-hole type sport bike riders, but I still like sport bikes.  If I can find the right GW for the right price, I'll just tune out the rest of the GW world (except for the technical stuff). 

[Hosstage]

As far as HD reliability, mine is almost twenty years old, has 120,000 miles, gets the living hell beat out of it, and has not left me stranded. The belt did break about a 1/4 mile from home once (pushed it home), but it was not the belt's fault, that was all on me pounding it into submission.

When I say beat hell out of it, I'm talking drag strip launches, hard hard downshifts, and thousands of times redlining the motor and bang shifting the next gear.