Jump to content
Hosstage

Our Leader

Recommended Posts

Hosstage

President Trump said he will punish Turkey economically if they act improperly in Syria.

 

Do you think the dead civilians, soldiers, Kurds, give two shits about Turkey being punished economically?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
TEWKS

Tough decision, will it come back to sting us in the future? :dontknow: Watch this vid and pay attention at the one minute mark in particular. I’ve seen this in my line of work as a firefighter, the explosive grief stricken emotion from a parent who just realized that their child is gone. It stays with you, believe me. How much longer and how many more?

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Marty Hill
1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

President Trump said he will punish Turkey economically if they act improperly in Syria.

 

Do you think the dead civilians, soldiers, Kurds, give two shits about Turkey being punished economically?

Tho I agree with you 100% this does not belong on this site.  I'm under the impression that politics are a no-no.

Share this post


Link to post
Twisties

Politics and current events are permitted in the Full Throttle Forum.  That's why it's here.  However, the basic rules of civility do apply.  Here are the rules:

 

 

Full Throttle

fp_InsertName.png.33c7dd4c85c9a671a9623a351b1373da.png   Current Events which may include political topics


Full Throttle Guidelines

BMWSPORTTOURING GENERAL POSTING RULES:  THE FOLLOWING BEHAVIORS ARE NOT ALLOWED

 

  • Name calling or making a reply a personal attack
  • Threatening another member
  • Posts containing pics of frontal nudity
  • Posts that contain racist comments
  • Spam
  • Posts containing copyrighted material

 

SPECIFIC GUIDELINES  FOR THE FULL THROTTLE FORUM

If we can’t greet each other with handshakes and hugs at BMWST events because of things posted here this will be gone. 

You must have thick skin to participate and realize no matter what you believe the facts are someone is a gonna disagree with you. 

 

If you have banned, blocked or unfriended people on Facebook because they disagree with you this may not be the place for you.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
realshelby

This forum has went very well so far. It is BMWRT/ST after all. Yet still surprising at how civil the threads are. A good testimate to those that hang out here, and wow is there a broad range of personalities!

 

But Trump might finally be the best test of Full Throttle!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Bud

The second time we have abandoned the Kurds.

 

At least some Republican Senators have the moral courage to call him out on it. The rest are trying to duck the issue.

 

It will not end well.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
John Ranalletta

**,,,**

 

Share this post


Link to post
Hosstage
9 hours ago, realshelby said:

This forum has went very well so far. It is BMWRT/ST after all. Yet still surprising at how civil the threads are. A good testimate to those that hang out here, and wow is there a broad range of personalities!

 

But Trump might finally be the best test of Full Throttle!

I really do want him to be a good president. 

I don't pretend to have the right answers, especially when it comes to the Mid East, I just would like our politicians to act like they are not interested only in their own reelection and lining their pockets.

And maybe trying to protect lives over principles.

Share this post


Link to post
Hosstage
11 hours ago, Hosstage said:

President Trump said he will punish Turkey economically if they act improperly in Syria.

 

Do you think the dead civilians, soldiers, Kurds, give two shits about Turkey being punished economically?

It reminded me of the scene in My Cousin Vinny, he asks his girlfriend if his pants are good to use to go hunting.  Vinny's girlfriend begins describing a cute little deer, bending down to drink from a cool stream, when BAM, a bullet rips through its head and blows half of it off. Then she asks, do you really think the deer gives a shit what kind of pants you were wearing?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Paul De
6 hours ago, Bud said:

The second time we have abandoned the Kurds.

At least, might even be more.   While the Kurds agenda in the region would be seen to threaten Turkey's NE boarder as they want independent rule, but it is more complicated, as is most issues in the middle east. Historically their homelands were carved up by the British and Americans after WWII based on natural resource (oil) interests and the ability to gain access to them by the western powers.  So now the Kurds live spread across several of these post war drawn boarders.  They have been an inconvenient population since then and now that we allied with them to route out ISIS we will own this debacle.  It appears their fate now is to fight for territory at great human cost, and trust no one.  What  a shame. These people loose life and land and we loose credibility.   Internationally this will be viewed worse than "leading from behind"  and be seen as "leading to nowhere". 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Twisties
7 hours ago, Bud said:

The second time we have abandoned the Kurds.

 

At least some Republican Senators have the moral courage to call him out on it. The rest are trying to duck the issue.

 

It will not end well.

According to this author, third time...  Also, if anyone is interested, the Four Maps article, there is a link on the page, is pretty good at explaining the situation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50000646

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Antimatter
3 hours ago, Whip said:

Hilarious.  Somehow they managed to still blame Obama for this.  The gist of the article seems to be 'human rights are for losers', and we shouldn't get involved in other people's problems.  That worked great until two jets slammed into the World Trade Center in NYC.  The other part that's goofy thinking is that 'the Kurds hijacked our war on terror.'  No, we made a hash of the region when W and Co. decided to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, when the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.  As the sign on the door says, 'You Break It, You Bought It'.  We own that whole mess now, because of what will go down in US history as the single biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st century (post 9/11 response).

Finally, the moral lesson of Lawrence of Arabia isn't 'Don't try to make peace with lesser savages', it's that every moral compromise you make will come back to haunt you eventually.  That some people still haven't learned that is beyond me.

It's true we are not the world's policeman, but we've caused a lot of the instability in the middle east by waging war and propping up dictators, all because every US politician is scared to death of the price of gas going up.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Whip

That is what many what us to believe. 
 

We may never really know the truth.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Rougarou
2 hours ago, Antimatter said:

  No, we made a hash of the region when W and Co. decided to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, when the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

 

John Walker Lindh is American,.....should the we attack America because of the threats nationality or should we attack the threats actual location/s?

Share this post


Link to post
Marty Hill

Antimatter, thanks for actually having some knowledge prior to posting.  

Share this post


Link to post
John Ranalletta
2 hours ago, Whip said:

That is what many what us to believe. 
 

We may never really know the truth.

 

 

 

If only half of what Lawrence Wright penned in "Looming Tower" is true, we were doomed from the start by our own government, including the presidents before and after W.

Share this post


Link to post
Bud

Another possibility is that when the President is pressed on an issue, he looks for something shiny to divert the public's attention.

 

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

·

Oct 7

As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!).

Share this post


Link to post
Paul De

And Newsweek posted about 2 hours ago.  Turkey inadvertent shelling of US Special Forces.   Pentagon official quoted as saying Turks should have our positions "down to the grid".  I have no military experience so I'm not sure what "down to the grid" means in terms of location but it has to be pretty well defined.  This could go sideways if the Turks actually take some of the US troops out.   The plan is always perfect up to the moment the shooting starts...or in the words of Mike Tyson.  Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face!

 

https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727

Share this post


Link to post
Paul De
2 hours ago, Bud said:

As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!).

 

Haha If I didn't know better I would say that you should take care when typing your thoughts.  Sadly given the source I know you typed those words verbatim.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Rougarou
12 minutes ago, Paul De said:

 I have no military experience so I'm not sure what "down to the grid" means in terms of location but it has to be pretty well defined.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727

 

A grid is a measurement of a map.  Generally, troops on the ground use a 1:50000 map, which is a 1" grid square equals 1 sqkm.  Grid squares are further divided by ten's.  Grid lines both north and south have a number system. You read the map right then up, so in the picture below, the red dot would be a grid coordinate of 147663 (roughly, it's been some years since I've done land Nav) Having someone down to the grid simply means that the position is marked either to a six digit coordinate or greater detail an eight digit coordinate.

 

But, but, but, doesn't mean that errors in calculations don't happen, ammunition is not fully to specs, the wind kicks up a heavy gust to push over a mortar or rocket, fratricide is an occurrence in battles.  During the 91 Persian Excursion I watched missiles, rockets and tracers firing back and forth only to find out it was two U.S. forces shooting at each other.  On another night, our company just dug in and some flyboy coming back dropped his remaining load on what he thought was a target of opportunity, less than 200m from our positions.  Stuff happens, not all get the word on where friendlies are located.

 

See the squares:image.png.3c7a45f8da47cfa401da8059e3fd244c.png

 

Hope this helps.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
MikeB60
19 hours ago, Living the Dream said:

 

 Stuff happens, not all get the word on where friendlies are located.

 

 

Yes it does.  Shit gets complicated quickly with units in contact especially when you add indirect fires and close air support.  Someone who hasn't slept in a couple of days transposes a few numbers, screws up a spot report, marks a friendly postition as enemy ect.... Most times when a unit in contact calls for indirect they want it NOW.  My artillery buddy would always what's a few mills (6400 mils = 360 degrees) between friends, it's a hell of a lot over 15 kms!

Share this post


Link to post
Carlisja

We bombed our own Special Forces team in Afghanistan.  The team leader was the son of the commanding general of all Army Special Operations.  The team was escorting the future President of Afghanistan.  Mistakes are made by all humans.

Share this post


Link to post
Bud

There are competing narratives. Time will tell which is correct.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Bud

from the article linked above.

 

"CIA/FBI-backed impeachment could also be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Donald Trump thinks he’s going to be jailed upon leaving office, he’ll sooner or later figure out that his only real move is to start acting like the “dictator” MSNBC and CNN keep insisting he is. Why give up the White House and wait to be arrested, when he still has theoretical authority to send Special Forces troops rappelling through the windows of every last Russiagate/Ukrainegate leaker? That would be the endgame in a third world country, and it’s where we’re headed, unless someone calls off this craziness."

 

For a variety of reasons I don't think that is where we are headed. The most likely scenario is the House will impeach and the Senate will not convict,  leaving Trump in a much stronger position.

 

There are not enough retiring Republican Senators that will allow the necessary 60 votes. Those some of those who are retiring seem more willing to say anything critical about Trump. His total control over the GOP narrative is a sign of his political instincts. He claims to not be a politician, I think he is more of a politician than the majority of presidents. Attack, attack, deny, disrupt, distract. Do it again and again and again. Has worked pretty well so far.

 

The only thing that may have an impact would be if the economy takes a drastic downturn in the next few months.

 

May you live in interesting times. :whistle:

Share this post


Link to post
RightSpin

Whether backing the Kurds, or not, is the right thing to do, it is perfectly clear to me that we are no longer the society which sticks with decisions and honors commitments.  We quit doing that beginning with the Vietnam War and continuing right up to where we are today.  Our citizens allegiances flow and shift as quickly as the winds.  And, while I have complete faith in the ability of our military to do whatever we ask of them, that sentiment is not extended to the citizens who back them up...when it's convenient...or when their guy is in the White House...or when nothing better is on TV.

Nah, we're better off just letting these people fend for themselves from the get go.  At least they won't be sucked into false hope.  I hope Trump brings them all home.

Share this post


Link to post
tallman

Steve, way before Vietnam.

Treaties made with Indigenous people.

Hawaii.

Central America.

Cuba, Bay of Pigs.

Middle East following WW II.

Plenty more, all around the world, across the centuries.

Yes, we've also done good things.

But, the American can be Ugly.

Our leaders have used stereotypes to justify choice since the start.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
mickeym3

Reading through this thread caused me to revisit the one on the Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam.  John made an astute observation there..."Given we've been at war since 9/11, have we learned anything?"  Pretty clear we know the answer.  With beer, sports and the MSM being our collective opiate of choice the public in general just goes with the flow, taking potshots at the opposition on FB but never doing anything meaningful.  As a moderate I have been so marginalized that none of our current “leaders” even stokes the least bit of hope that anything of substance will change. Without term limits how could it?  We’ll keep squandering our greatness and will find that when the next big test comes (and it always does) we will discover we’ve become worthless. We haven’t tipped over yet but we are precariously teetering on the precipice. 

Share this post


Link to post
John Ranalletta
12 hours ago, RightSpin said:

Whether backing the Kurds, or not, is the right thing to do, it is perfectly clear to me that we are no longer the society which sticks with decisions and honors commitments.  We quit doing that beginning with the Vietnam War and continuing right up to where we are today.  Our citizens allegiances flow and shift as quickly as the winds.  And, while I have complete faith in the ability of our military to do whatever we ask of them, that sentiment is not extended to the citizens who back them up...when it's convenient...or when their guy is in the White House...or when nothing better is on TV.

Nah, we're better off just letting these people fend for themselves from the get go.  At least they won't be sucked into false hope.  I hope Trump brings them all home.

 

Steve, 

 

Couldn't agree more.  The issue IMO is the complete failure to have a long-term, global strategy and our leaders' (at all levels) reticence to risk their political careers to build a consensus around it.  The Sino/Soviet global dictatorships will eventually prevail.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Joe Frickin' Friday
On 10/11/2019 at 8:27 AM, Hosstage said:
On 10/11/2019 at 7:11 AM, Whip said:

 

An interesting read, more informative than what is put forth in the media, of course. Trump should just get up and read that to the public to explain his decisions.

 

That's kind of the problem.  There have been any number of supportive post-hoc justifications for the decision to have US troops in Syria stand down, but none of any great substance has come directly from the administration.  Poorly-considered decisions rarely result in favorable outcomes, and there's been scant evidence that the original decision to withdraw from Syria was informed by any kind of careful consideration for the long-term (or even short-term) consequences.  In the present case, the administration appears to have been caught off-guard by the viciousness of Turkey's military actions against the Kurds, and Russia is moving in to fill the void left by our hasty exit - both of which were predictable. 

 

We've lost 8 US soldiers in the course of our intervention in the Syrian civil war.  That is tragic, but it was in the service of preventing wholesale slaughter of civilians and expansion of Russian influence in the region - both of which are now taking place.  That they died for a cause we are now abandoning without any evident thought is a much greater tragedy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Antimatter
17 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Steve, 

 

Couldn't agree more.  The issue IMO is the complete failure to have a long-term, global strategy and our leaders' (at all levels) reticence to risk their political careers to build a consensus around it.  The Sino/Soviet global dictatorships will eventually prevail.  

 

John - the issue is (and always has been) that we tend to chuck our beliefs out the window whenever the wealth of a few is threatened.  We have a long-term global strategy - preserve basic rights for everyone, and allow economics to pick the winners as long as the playing field is level.  The problem is that we always panic whenever someone comes along who might beat us at our own game, and then we resort to military pressure and dirty tricks to keep the game going our way.  Heck, we rebelled against what the colonists saw as an unjust government.  Can we be surprised when other humans do the same?

Share this post


Link to post
John Ranalletta
38 minutes ago, Antimatter said:

 

John - the issue is (and always has been) that we tend to chuck our beliefs out the window whenever the wealth of a few is threatened.  We have a long-term global strategy - preserve basic rights for everyone, and allow economics to pick the winners as long as the playing field is level.  The problem is that we always panic whenever someone comes along who might beat us at our own game, and then we resort to military pressure and dirty tricks to keep the game going our way.  Heck, we rebelled against what the colonists saw as an unjust government.  Can we be surprised when other humans do the same?

 

Semantics for sure, but "preserve basic rights for everyone, and allow economics to pick the winners as long as the playing field is level" seems more a tradition than a strategy and traditions dissipate in succeeding generations.  History seems to tell us we've stumbled into most of the wars we've fought and we were lucky to prevail.  Now, we're just stumbling and the luck is running out.

Share this post


Link to post
Rougarou
45 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

We've lost 8 US soldiers in the course of our intervention in the Syrian civil war.  That is tragic, but it was in the service of preventing wholesale slaughter of civilians and expansion of Russian influence in the region - both of which are now taking place.  That they died for a cause we are now abandoning without any evident thought is a much greater tragedy.

 

I don't think so.

 

Having served in two wars and several contingency efforts both as an infantryman and in support billets, many "boots on the ground" discussions "during" operations have the same question, which is, at what point do you turn the reigns over, after giving all the tools and training, and say, it is now your issue to deal with.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Joe Frickin' Friday
26 minutes ago, Living the Dream said:

 

I don't think so.

 

Having served in two wars and several contingency efforts both as an infantryman and in support billets, many "boots on the ground" discussions "during" operations have the same question, which is, at what point do you turn the reigns over, after giving all the tools and training, and say, it is now your issue to deal with.

 

Generally a hand-off happens when you look around and see that the situation is stable and there is no threat on the horizon.  Leaving the area when when a hostile force says "we'd like to begin shelling next week" is not "handing over the reins," it's abandonment.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Rougarou
6 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Generally a hand-off happens when you look around and see that the situation is stable and there is no threat on the horizon.  Leaving the area when when a hostile force says "we'd like to begin shelling next week" is not "handing over the reins," it's abandonment.

 

 

There's always a threat on the horizon in that part of the world, both internally and externally, "stable" ain't gonna happen. 

 

Again, when do you give the reigns over to those you have spent years training and equipping to handle their own issues.   Oh, wait, let's let diplomacy work, have a dialogue, have more talks, meanwhile, Green Beret Sgt "Jones" just got killed and leaves behind a wife and two kids while these "talks to nowhere" are going on.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
RightSpin
53 minutes ago, Living the Dream said:

 

There's always a threat on the horizon in that part of the world, both internally and externally, "stable" ain't gonna happen. 

 

Again, when do you give the reigns over to those you have spent years training and equipping to handle their own issues.   Oh, wait, let's let diplomacy work, have a dialogue, have more talks, meanwhile, Green Beret Sgt "Jones" just got killed and leaves behind a wife and two kids while these "talks to nowhere" are going on.

 

Exactly!  From the perspective of a Desert Shield/Desert Storm veteran, this is the biggest thing George H.W. Bush got right.  When the objectives, as determined BEFORE fighting began, had been met, he left.  This is military doctrine 101 stuff, but a topic few civilians have any understanding of.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
mickeym3

Since the topic is Leaders, George H.W. Bush represents a President who understood perfectly the sacrifice of our military and families. All those since never had skin in the game or grasped what the stakes are. Believe George W. appreciated the fact as well, while the far left simply labels him a war criminal. This latest “withdrawal” smacks of helicopters frantically lifting off from Hanoi. Either quoting from Garth Stein or your first driving school instructor “look where you want to go” is appropriate.  In this case our leader hasn’t a clue where he’s going and it shows. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
poodad

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

If you want to know what the result of us abandoning the Kurds will be, you only have to look back at what happened when we did pretty much the same thing to Afghanistan after helping them drive the Soviets out in the 80s. The resulting vacuum is what fueled the spread of radicalism in the middle east. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
John Ranalletta

I fail to understand why we intervene in these tribal conflicts.  They've gone on for centuries and will never end; thus, when we intervene, it's forever.  I'm not an Assad fan but he gets it.  The only victory is the complete vanquishing of the enemy by whatever means.

 

The only "successful" wars were those where the victor brought the vanquished to their knees and kept them their, e.g. WWI, WWII, Civil War.  The other, still-ongoing wars are those where the combatants fought to a draw or the conflict was negotiated by a third party and an artificial line was drawn, e.g. Korea, Bosnia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, et al.

 

Most of the tribes with whom we ally detest our way of life and rent themselves to us as the whim moves them.  They'll shack up with whomever pays or offers the most but they have absolutely no intention of finding a lasting peace with their enemies.  Just ask an Israeli.

 

ps. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/iraq-urges-un-boot-unauthorized-us-forces-country

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
lawnchairboy

my money loves him.

Share this post


Link to post
TEWKS

Peace, prosperity and having the hammer cocked. Makes sense to me, choo choo! :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
eddd
8 hours ago, lawnchairboy said:

my money loves him.

 

I guess your money adored Obama (+180% S&P) and Clinton (+210% S&P).

First 678 day S&P for various presidents:

 

Reagan      +29
W. Bush     - 23

Clinton       +34

H.W.           + 35
Obama      + 44
Trump       + 31
 

Share this post


Link to post
lawnchairboy

I would happily take back the Clinton/Gingrich economy and lack of deficit Eddd.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
eddd
23 minutes ago, lawnchairboy said:

I would happily take back the Clinton/Gingrich economy and lack of deficit Eddd.

 

Good luck with that.  The anti-deficit horse has long left the barn only to be replaced by a whole herd of pro-deficit donkeys...aka asses.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
lawnchairboy

I can't disagree Eddd.

Share this post


Link to post
lawnchairboy

but my money still loves him. 

Share this post


Link to post
poodad
4 hours ago, lawnchairboy said:

but my money still loves him. 

Mine doesn't. Just looked - my S&P 500 index fund had a whopping 4% return YTD.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...