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Starting issue when charged


motofiala

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Hi friends,

 

The bike: 2002 R1150R w 64000mi.

 

I keep coming out and finding that when I turn key to start [fuel pump charges, lights go on, all sounds and lights normal] bike will click but won't start.  This has happened 3-4x this summer.  I assumed the battery had died.

I was convinced there was a drain somewhere so I checked the battery for charge and performed current draw test to see if there was a circuit open. Did this all week.  Each time the battery was fully charged and no current was being pulled.  All week I could start the bike without a problem.

 

Went to start it this morning and wouldn't start. Battery still has full charge.  I am stumped.  I replaced the starter years ago but this doesn't seem to be the issue.

 

I washed it yesterday but the HAL effect sensor was replaced last year so I don't suspect that. In fact I started it and rode it a bit after washing it and put it away.

 

Battery has more than 12V even after trying to start it now 3 times.

 

I'm stumped...any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

Mark

 

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That is either your starter drawing it down or the battery is shot, even though it has the voltage it is not able to deliver enough current to start the bike.  Make sure all of your battery connections are clean and tight including the B+ at the starter. 

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Thank you. I will replace the battery. I only had it 3 years but I suppose I was lucky before...one lasted 4 years and the other 5.  Thanks for the advice...I will let you know how it goes.

 

Take care!

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I had a similar problem this year with my 04 rt. It was the battery. Showing good. I am looking for a decent charger for the new AGM. I had a tender I used on the old one but after 3 years it just didn't have enough umph although everything else looked ok.

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15 hours ago, motofiala said:

 

 

I keep coming out and finding that when I turn key to start [fuel pump charges, lights go on, all sounds and lights normal] bike will click but won't start.  This has happened 3-4x this summer.  I assumed the battery had died.

 

Went to start it this morning and wouldn't start. Battery still has full charge.  I am stumped.  I replaced the starter years ago but this doesn't seem to be the issue.

 

 

It still sounds like a starter motor issue. Can you describe the symptoms more accurately. 

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Morning Mark

 

I keep coming out and finding that when I turn key to start [fuel pump charges, lights go on, all sounds and lights normal] bike will click but won't start.  This has happened 3-4x this summer.  I assumed the battery had died.-- It does sound sort of like your battery is not doing it's job. You will ether need further testing of your present battery (a basic load test) or just replace it.  

I was convinced there was a drain somewhere so I checked the battery for charge and performed current draw test to see if there was a circuit open. Did this all week.  Each time the battery was fully charged and no current was being pulled.  All week I could start the bike without a problem.-- How did you determine that the  battery was fully & properly charged?  What was the static voltage after sitting for 12 hours  (you can't properly measure it right after charging as all that shows is  battery surface charge).

 

The NO current drain also bothers me as that is basically telling me that the parasitic draw wasn't being measured properly (you should have measured around  a 1.9 mA parasitic draw with the key in the off  position. (what was your EXACT mA draw with key in off position?)

 

Went to start it this morning and wouldn't start. Battery still has full charge.  I am stumped.  I replaced the starter years ago but this doesn't seem to be the issue.-- Again, how did you verify that the battery was FULLY charged, what was the static battery voltage after sitting for 12 hours? (ie no battery charger on battery for at least 12 hours prior to measuring the voltage, or after having headlight on for a short time to flash off surface charge).

 

What was the battery voltage measured during the first try at engine cranking?  (this is an important measurement & might tell us where to look for the problem).

 

I washed it yesterday but the HAL effect sensor was replaced last year so I don't suspect that. In fact I started it and rode it a bit after washing it and put it away.-- The HES should not have any effect on engine cranking. Could on actual starting but not on cranking.

 

Battery has more than 12V even after trying to start it now 3 times.-- 12 volts is a fairly dead battery, how much more than 12 volts was measured? Depending on battery type & age you probably need to see 12.6 to 12.8 volts after battery charging & surface charge flash-off & 10 volts or more during actual engine cranking. If you see under 9.8 volts during engine cranking then you either have an incorrectly charged battery, or a bad (failed) battery, or your starter is drawing too much current.

 

I'm stumped...any ideas? -- Yes, lots of ideas. You need to start with a good battery charge using a battery charger rated to charge your battery type. Then allow to sit without charger long enough to flash off the surface charge, then measure the static battery voltage  (is it over 12.5-12.6 if a lead acid battery & over 12.7 if AGM or GEL battery?)

 

Next, you need to measure the battery voltage during engine cranking (or attempted engine cranking).   (is it over 10.0 volts?)

 

If nothing found in the above then do a good parasitic draw measurement again.

 

If still nothing found then do a battery cable voltage drop test on both the  (+) cable & the (-) cable during attempted engine cranking.

 

Have your battery load tested (this might point to failing battery under starting load).

 

If it passes all the above tests then suspect the starter has internal issues. (it could very well be a bad starter but a bad starter usually acts up more often than just at first start)

 

If your motorcycle has an older  Kisan signal minder (turn signal flasher relay) then try removing that as some of the older Kisan units have a LOT of parasitic  draw even with the key turned off.

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Friends...thanks for all the suggestions and ideas...I will try to get on this after work tonight but I may not have an update for a few days...again...thanks so much for all the help.

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Motofiala,

 

If your battery is an AGM type (Odyssey PC680, WESTCO, YUASA), then your battery may be just fine, just Not Fully Charged.  AGM batteries require 14.5 to 14.7 volts to charge 100%.  Your voltage regulator (part of the Bosch alternator) was probably set for the older type lead-acid batteries (13.5v) in common use in 2002.  Also, if your "home charger" or "trickle charger" doesn't say specifically "FOR AGM BATTERIES" or is not on the manufacturer's list or Approved Chargers for your battery, it still will NOT be fully charged, even if your charger says it is. 

 

I had the same identical problem three years ago on my '99 R1100S.  It would not start one morning.  After replacing the AGM battery with a new AGM and doing some reading an AGM's and chargers, I replaced the voltage regulator and my "home charger" with AGM rated units.  THEN, I put the "dead" AGM battery on the new AGM approved charger for a few day and it came back to life and is still going strong in another bike.

 

Buy a new battery if you want or need to but if you don't upgrade the charging systems also, you will be back where you are now in another three years.

 

 

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Hello...so I am using dirtrider's notes for my update...Lowndes...I have only used the BMW charger on this bike, and it currently has YUASA 51913 lead acid battery that I put in 3 years ago.  As always...thanks in advance for your help.

 

I keep coming out and finding that when I turn key to start [fuel pump charges, lights go on, all sounds and lights normal] bike will click but won't start.  This has happened 3-4x this summer.  I assumed the battery had died.-- It does sound sort of like your battery is not doing it's job. You will ether need further testing of your present battery (a basic load test) or just replace it.  

I was convinced there was a drain somewhere so I checked the battery for charge and performed current draw test to see if there was a circuit open. Did this all week.  Each time the battery was fully charged and no current was being pulled.  All week I could start the bike without a problem.-- How did you determine that the  battery was fully & properly charged?  What was the static voltage after sitting for 12 hours  (you can't properly measure it right after charging as all that shows is  battery surface charge).  12.67V

 

The NO current drain also bothers me as that is basically telling me that the parasitic draw wasn't being measured properly (you should have measured around  a 1.9 mA parasitic draw with the key in the off  position. (what was your EXACT mA draw with key in off position?) I STILL COULD NOT DETECT A DRAW.  I AM USING AN ACTRON CP7665 AUTOANALYZER SET AT 200m.

 

Went to start it this morning and wouldn't start. Battery still has full charge.  I am stumped.  I replaced the starter years ago but this doesn't seem to be the issue.-- Again, how did you verify that the battery was FULLY charged, what was the static battery voltage after sitting for 12 hours? (ie no battery charger on battery for at least 12 hours prior to measuring the voltage, or after having headlight on for a short time to flash off surface charge). TURNED KEY TO 'ON' POSITION. DROPPED TO 11.90 - 11.95 RANGE.

 

What was the battery voltage measured during the first try at engine cranking?  (this is an important measurement & might tell us where to look for the problem). DROPPED TO 8.07 THEN STARTED GOING UP ONCE THE BIKE STARTED.  I STARTED IT TWICE AND LET IT RUN FOR ABOUT 15 SEC EACH TIME.

 

I washed it yesterday but the HAL effect sensor was replaced last year so I don't suspect that. In fact I started it and rode it a bit after washing it and put it away.-- The HES should not have any effect on engine cranking. Could on actual starting but not on cranking.  AGREED. THIS IS NOT LIKE LAST YEAR'S PROBLEM.

 

Battery has more than 12V even after trying to start it now 3 times.-- 12 volts is a fairly dead battery, how much more than 12 volts was measured? Depending on battery type & age you probably need to see 12.6 to 12.8 volts after battery charging & surface charge flash-off & 10 volts or more during actual engine cranking. If you see under 9.8 volts during engine cranking then you either have an incorrectly charged battery, or a bad (failed) battery, or your starter is drawing too much current.  

 

I'm stumped...any ideas? -- Yes, lots of ideas. You need to start with a good battery charge using a battery charger rated to charge your battery type. Then allow to sit without charger long enough to flash off the surface charge, then measure the static battery voltage  (is it over 12.5-12.6 if a lead acid battery & over 12.7 if AGM or GEL battery?)

 

Next, you need to measure the battery voltage during engine cranking (or attempted engine cranking).   (is it over 10.0 volts?) SEE ABOVE.

 

If nothing found in the above then do a good parasitic draw measurement again. I DID, NO DRAW MEASURED.

 

If still nothing found then do a battery cable voltage drop test on both the  (+) cable & the (-) cable during attempted engine cranking. I CAN LOOK INTO DOING THIS.

 

Have your battery load tested (this might point to failing battery under starting load). I DON'T THINK I HAVE THE GEAR TO DO THIS.

 

If it passes all the above tests then suspect the starter has internal issues. (it could very well be a bad starter but a bad starter usually acts up more often than just at first start) I REPLACED THE STARTER IN 2010.  HAVING REPLACED STARTERS IN CARS, I WAS SURE I COULD TELL THERE WAS A PROBLEM.  REPLACED STARTED AND PROBLEM RESOLVED. SINCE I HAVE SEEN NOTHING TO SUGGEST THE STARTER I HAVE NOT LOOKED MORE DEEPLY INTO THAT.

 

If your motorcycle has an older  Kisan signal minder (turn signal flasher relay) then try removing that as some of the older Kisan units have a LOT of parasitic  draw even with the key turned off.

 
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Morning   Motofiala   

I was convinced there was a drain somewhere so I checked the battery for charge and performed current draw test to see if there was a circuit open. Did this all week.  Each time the battery was fully charged and no current was being pulled.  All week I could start the bike without a problem.-- How did you determine that the  battery was fully & properly charged?  What was the static voltage after sitting for 12 hours  (you can't properly measure it right after charging as all that shows is  battery surface charge).  12.67V--  This should be plenty good for a lead/acid based battery. It doesn't tell the entire story though as it could easily  just be showing a full (surface) charge on a sulfated battery that has a very low  cranking amp capacity under load.

 

The NO current drain also bothers me as that is basically telling me that the parasitic draw wasn't being measured properly (you should have measured around  a 1.9 mA parasitic draw with the key in the off  position. (what was your EXACT mA draw with key in off position?) I STILL COULD NOT DETECT A DRAW.  I AM USING AN ACTRON CP7665 AUTOANALYZER SET AT 200m.-- There is something wrong here as your bike has on-board electronics so HAS TO  have some (be it small) draw. Exactly what was your meter showing on the screen? If you were using the 200m scale on the amp setting then does your meter need the meter's (-) cable moved to a different input socket? If your meter was showing (OL)  then you might need to move the test lead to the 5 amp (or higher amp input socket).        As a verification test, try doing another parasitic draw test using a simple 12v test light. Disconnect the battery (-) cable at the  battery (be sure all wires are disconnected from the battery (-) post). Then hook your 12v test light clip to the battery (-) post, NOW hook the removed cable (& all other removed wires) to the stinger probe of the 12v test light-- Does the test light light-up, or glow softly, or????  If it lights up brightly then you have a major draw, if it just glows lightly then you have a minor draw, if nothing then you are good-to-go. Then, with the test light  ground clip still hooked to the battery (-) post touch the stinger probe to the battery (+) post (does it light up brightly)-- This is just a test light verification test. 

 

Went to start it this morning and wouldn't start. Battery still has full charge.  I am stumped.  I replaced the starter years ago but this doesn't seem to be the issue.-- Again, how did you verify that the battery was FULLY charged, what was the static battery voltage after sitting for 12 hours? (ie no battery charger on battery for at least 12 hours prior to measuring the voltage, or after having headlight on for a short time to flash off surface charge). TURNED KEY TO 'ON' POSITION. DROPPED TO 11.90 - 11.95 RANGE.-- This is pretty low for a battery in good condition with good CCA capacity. (your battery might be sulfated or have internal problems.    (Have your battery lead tested)

 

What was the battery voltage measured during the first try at engine cranking?  (this is an important measurement & might tell us where to look for the problem). DROPPED TO 8.07 THEN STARTED GOING UP ONCE THE BIKE STARTED.  I STARTED IT TWICE AND LET IT RUN FOR ABOUT 15 SEC EACH TIME.-- This is way low & usually shows a battery with reduced performance (probably sulfated or has a weak cell)--   Again have battery load tested, or replace it. If battery passes load test with flying colors then possibly look into starter problems.

 

  

If still nothing found then do a battery cable voltage drop test on both the  (+) cable & the (-) cable during attempted engine cranking. I CAN LOOK INTO DOING THIS.

 

Have your battery load tested (this might point to failing battery under starting load). I DON'T THINK I HAVE THE GEAR TO DO THIS.-- You don't do this yourself, you need to take the (fully charged)  battery to a motorcycle shop or possibly your local auto parts store as they (should)  have the meter to load test your battery. Depending on the motorcycle shop some will do it for free, when it comes to auto parts stores, again, some (most) will do it for free BUT not all are equipped to test motorcycle sized battery's  (you need to call first to verify both cost & if they have small battery testing ability)-- Or just replace the battery.

 

If it passes all the above tests then suspect the starter has internal issues. (it could very well be a bad starter but a bad starter usually acts up more often than just at first start) I REPLACED THE STARTER IN 2010.  HAVING REPLACED STARTERS IN CARS, I WAS SURE I COULD TELL THERE WAS A PROBLEM.  REPLACED STARTED AND PROBLEM RESOLVED. SINCE I HAVE SEEN NOTHING TO SUGGEST THE STARTER I HAVE NOT LOOKED MORE DEEPLY INTO THAT.-- Get battery load tested & verify that you have a battery with good  CCA, THEN, if still a problem ,look into battery cable voltage drop and/or a starter issue.

 

 

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Friends:

 

Here's the update.

 

I took the battery to my local BMW shop today. They performed a load test and apart from telling me to add distilled water, said the battery is fine.

 

When the battery is charged it consistently shows > 12.6V.   When starting...sometimes it drops to < 6.0V, or will stay in the 8.0 - 9.0V range.

 

I have been starting/testing/starting/testing throughout the week.  It started fine each and every time except once: yesterday I started it and let it run about a minute while I tested it with the multimeter. I shut it off and then went to restart it, and I couid not get it to turnover. Lights go on, and I hear the clicking, but no start. Meter dropped to the lowest, about 5.5V.  At that point I removed the battery and took it to AutoZone. They tested it and said it was bad. Therefore I put it on the tender all night and took it to BMW...they said it is fine.

 

Other than last night, the battery has not been on the tender since overnight Tu Oct 1.

 

I have already ordered a new battery but now I feel I should cancel the order because it may be something else like the starter.

 

Any advice is always appreciated..thanks in advance for your help.

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26 minutes ago, motofiala said:

Friends:

 

Here's the update.

 

I took the battery to my local BMW shop today. They performed a load test and apart from telling me to add distilled water, said the battery is fine.

 

When the battery is charged it consistently shows > 12.6V.   When starting...sometimes it drops to < 6.0V, or will stay in the 8.0 - 9.0V range.

 

I have been starting/testing/starting/testing throughout the week.  It started fine each and every time except once: yesterday I started it and let it run about a minute while I tested it with the multimeter. I shut it off and then went to restart it, and I couid not get it to turnover. Lights go on, and I hear the clicking, but no start. Meter dropped to the lowest, about 5.5V.  At that point I removed the battery and took it to AutoZone. They tested it and said it was bad. Therefore I put it on the tender all night and took it to BMW...they said it is fine.

 

Other than last night, the battery has not been on the tender since overnight Tu Oct 1.

 

I have already ordered a new battery but now I feel I should cancel the order because it may be something else like the starter.

 

Any advice is always appreciated..thanks in advance for your help.

 

 

Afternoon  Motofiala   

 

It could be the starter but could just as easily be the battery. Without  a KNOWN GOOD full capacity battery in the bike then is difficult to tell. With the conflicting battery load test that makes it even more frustrating. 

 

That 5.5v points to either a battery with very low cranking amp capacity or could be pointing to a starter that draws too many amps during the starting event.

 

Kind of difficult to get to but you can try jumping from another battery next time it won't crank correctly,  if it then spins over smartly then  probably a low output battery. (not conclusive but points a finger anyhow)

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Friends...thank you for all your suggestions. I just ended up putting a new battery in an everything is fine. Clearly I need to work on my diagnostic skills and reading/using my multimeter better.  Thanks again.

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