Cutting out. Possibly water in gas. But what else should I check?

[EffBee]

’99 1100RT, 66,000 miles

 

My bike was last ridden 6 weeks ago, at which time it ran fine and was put away with about 1 gallon of gas in the tank.  It sat on a Battery Tender for the entire time, getting dusty (regular dust and sawdust) as I worked to build and better organize part of the interior of my garage.  I washed it lightly (probably could have just air-hosed the dust off it) and took off for a 240 mile run the yesterday to scrub in some new tires prior to doing a full service this weekend as prep for Fall Torrey.

 

It started quickly on the high idle, then died.  Started again and stayed lit as long as I held a 2500 rpm with the throttle, but when it went back down to high-idle it ran for about 5 seconds and died.  I started it again and rode it to the gas station with 1-bar of gas showing, and put a few gallons of gas in it.  It ran home just fine (about 3 miles).

 

It sat for about 20 minutes as I geared up.  When I went to take off on my ride, same thing.  It didn’t want to sit on high idle, but eventually did.  Same thing every time I parked it.  Had to hold the high idle (which was a bit rough) with the throttle until I got moving.  Once moving, stops were no problem.  Just after parking it.

 

On the road, it cut out several times (about 20 times over 240 miles), especially when transitioning to an uphill, or when leveling out after a downhill.  Just a second or so of shutoff each time, although once it shut down from 70mp to 45mph.  Nothing I could do.  Then it lit up again and I kept on going.  The problem got worse as the fuel level got lower, and eased when I’d put a few gallons in.

 

To me, it sounds like water in the gas, moving to and from the fuel pump pickup as a ride uphill, or level off from a downhill, or when it’s centerstanded for a few minutes.  No problem.  I’m going to take the Tupperware off for a full service this weekend, so taking the tank off and draining the remaining gallon isn’t an issue.

 

My question is, what else should I check while the bike is apart. 

1. Is the HES a yes/no situation or can it intermittently short (it was preemptively replaced a few years ago).  I didn’t get water anywhere near there when I washed the bike, but who knows?

2. Since both cylinders shut off at the same time, is there a high-tension lead coming from the alternator that splits to the coils?

3. The centerstand doesn’t automatically come all the way up all the time (drag at the pivots).  So after I washed it, I sprayed the pivots with WD40.  Is there a chance I got some in the sidestand switch (I’m not sure how close it is to the same area).  If so, could that cause the cutting out?

4. Should I go ahead and check the HES for a possible bare wire?

5. Any other under-tank connections I need to look at?  Or anything else?

 

One of the things I’m not 100% certain I saw was during the long (70mph to 45mph) shutdown I experienced, was if the entire dash shut off. Before I take off the Tupperware for a full service, I’m going to go out for about 40 miles with very little fuel in the tank and see if I can catch a glimpse of the dash when it cuts out.  I'll add that info when I have it.

 

Thanks in advance for everyone's advice.  

[dirtrider]

 

Evening EffBee

 

There are some possibilities with nothing for certain until you get a little more info on ALL that quits when it cuts  out. 

 

My question is, what else should I check while the bike is apart.  

 

1. Is the HES a yes/no situation or can it intermittently short (it was preemptively replaced a few years ago).  I didn’t get water anywhere near there when I washed the bike, but who knows?--  It c-o-u-l-d be the HES but it doesn't really sound like it from what you posted above. But the HES can act up in different ways so don't totally discount it.  If you just can't find anything else that is causing your problem then go ahead & just re-wire your HES  (or send it out & have it done).

 

  2. Since both cylinders shut off at the same time, is there a high-tension lead coming from the alternator that splits to the coils?-- No, the coil is powered from the ignition switch on the 12v side & the trigger side of the coil is triggered by the Motronic.

 

3. The centerstand doesn’t automatically come all the way up all the time (drag at the pivots).  So after I washed it, I sprayed the pivots with WD40.  Is there a chance I got some in the sidestand switch (I’m not sure how close it is to the same area).  If so, could that cause the cutting out?--  It could definitely be  the side stand switch (put the side stand down with it running then see what the dash looks like, then see if the dash shows the same when it quits. (doesn't fit with the starting won't idle deal but fits  with the quitting while riding).  WD-40 won't hurt the switch.

 

4. Should I go ahead and check the HES for a possible bare wire?-- I would say not yet, you just about have the cut the harness apart to see something. Even if you find wire insulation cracking & falling apart that doesn't necessarily mean THAT is your problem.  

 

5. Any other under-tank connections I need to look at?  Or anything else?-- Yes, look at everything. Drain the tank into a large container (clear container if possible), then allow it to settle to see in you have a water/gasoline line.

 

One of the things I’m not 100% certain I saw was during the long (70mph to 45mph) shutdown I experienced, was if the entire dash shut off. Before I take off the Tupperware for a full service, I’m going to go out for about 40 miles with very little fuel in the tank and see if I can catch a glimpse of the dash when it cuts out.-- This is something that you have to look closely at.

 

You might want to do a fuel return flow test before tearing it apart as that might point to a leaking internal fuel high pressure hose  issue. (you must have good  fuel return flowing from the fuel return hose  with it idling & running at higher RPM's.   

 

Also, try putting the bike on the center stand, then with it running  turn the handlebars back & forth to see if that causes  the engine to run differently or quit  (sometimes the red or green wires going to the handlebar switch's can fracture & cause  a similar runability problem to what you are seeing. 

 

While the problem doesn't sound exactly like it you might make sure that mice didn't fill you air cleaner box with a big mouse nest.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jim Moore]

That sounds a lot like a bad fuel filter to me.

[Lowndes]

EffBee,

 

I have a '99 R1100Rt and a '99 R1100S.  I'm not saying this is your problem but it 

 

If you have not already done this, while you have the tank off and drained, you might replace all the rubber tubing , filter, and sock inside the tank.  BBY has the kit:  https://www.beemerboneyard.com/r81111r1fupu.html

 

Those hoses inside the tank, submerged in fuel constantly, succumb to gas and age and will split.  If yours are OEM, they are a little past their sell-by date.

 

The pressure in the fuel system is highest when idling  because the pump runs constantly producing constant flow and pressure.  The bypass valve bleeds off excess flow and pressure.   At lower RPM's and power, the injectors are using less gas so the pressure is a little more and may open a small split in the hose reducing the pressure temporarily, enough to cause skipping or shutdown.  When he pressure goes down (more throttle) the split closes and the injectors spray enough gas again.

 

I would strongly recommend the Oetiker hose clamps inside the tank.  When Oetiker's are crimped (with the right size clamp for the hose) you know the connection will hold.  You don't want a clamp too tight or too loose.  AMHIK.   AND you do not want this problem on the road.  It happens at stoplights at idle (highest pressure).

[EffBee]

Thanks for all the input.  Here's the latest.  

 

I rode the bike straight from our 240 mile ride and into the garage last night and put it away.  I just went to take it out for a spin, to see if I could replicate the cutting out and keep my eyes on the dashboard when it does.  Hit the starter and one-crank two-cranks then the solenoid stutters and the RID clock resets to zero.  Strange thing is that it started every time yesterday while I was riding it, with no noticeable lag or drag on the sequence.  No, I didn't have it on the battery tender over night, but I do now.  Hmmm.  Three-year-old Odyssey PC680.  They usually go six years, but it might be.  I'll try it again when it's fully charged, which will probably be tomorrow.

 

My biggest concern, as Dirt Rider pointed out, is to see what shuts off when the engine cuts out.  If it's just the engine, or is it the entire electrical system.  Assuming the battery holds a charge and I get a ride in tomorrow, if the bike acts up a few times, I should have at least that answer.  And the diagnosing will proceed from there.

 

Again, thanks all.

 

P.S.  I did pull the seat, open the airbox and pull the filter.  I used a flashlight to look inside.  No varmint nest, and no oil, either.  Good things at least.

[dirtrider]

43 minutes ago, EffBee said:

Thanks for all the input.  Here's the latest.  

 

I rode the bike straight from our 240 mile ride and into the garage last night and put it away.  I just went to take it out for a spin, to see if I could replicate the cutting out and keep my eyes on the dashboard when it does.  Hit the starter and one-crank two-cranks then the solenoid stutters and the RID clock resets to zero.  Strange thing is that it started every time yesterday while I was riding it, with no noticeable lag or drag on the sequence.  No, I didn't have it on the battery tender over night, but I do now.  Hmmm.  Three-year-old Odyssey PC680.  They usually go six years, but it might be.  I'll try it again when it's fully charged, which will probably be tomorrow.

 

My biggest concern, as Dirt Rider pointed out, is to see what shuts off when the engine cuts out.  If it's just the engine, or is it the entire electrical system.  Assuming the battery holds a charge and I get a ride in tomorrow, if the bike acts up a few times, I should have at least that answer.  And the diagnosing will proceed from there.

 

Again, thanks all.

 

P.S.  I did pull the seat, open the airbox and pull the filter.  I used a flashlight to look inside.  No varmint nest, and no oil, either.  Good things at least.

 

Evening EffBee

 

Definitely try to figure out WHAT is causing the issue before throwing parts at it.

 

If you just start tossing new parts in then you will not know for sure IF it is repaired or if the problem might come back later.

 

I still strongly suggest that you do a fuel return flow test as that should quickly put up a flag showing a restricted fuel filter issue, or show a fuel pump issue, or even show a split internal high pressure hose issue.

 

The fuel pump puts out quite a bit more fuel pressure than the regulator regulates to & a lot more fuel flow than the engine can use  so in normal operation the fuel pressure remains  constant from idle though wide open throttle even under full road load. This translates to much more fuel flow than the engine needs.  If all is well with your fuel system this should show up as that extra fuel flowing back thorough the fuel return hose. 

[dirtrider]

40 minutes ago, EffBee said:

Thanks for all the input.  Here's the latest.  

 

I rode the bike straight from our 240 mile ride and into the garage last night and put it away.  I just went to take it out for a spin, to see if I could replicate the cutting out and keep my eyes on the dashboard when it does.  Hit the starter and one-crank two-cranks then the solenoid stutters and the RID clock resets to zero.  Strange thing is that it started every time yesterday while I was riding it, with no noticeable lag or drag on the sequence.  No, I didn't have it on the battery tender over night, but I do now.  Hmmm.  Three-year-old Odyssey PC680.  They usually go six years, but it might be.  I'll try it again when it's fully charged, which will probably be tomorrow.

 

 

Evening EffBee

 

I'll address the battery issue in another thread here.

 

3 years is way too early for a PC 680 to die, you might want to verify that your charging system is working correctly. Possibly something like a loose alternator belt.

 

What type of battery charger are you using? An incorrect battery charger on the PC 680 can REALLY lower capacity over time (especially if the charger is left connected to the battery for extended periods).

 

If the PC 680 battery is degraded due to an improper battery charger then they can usually be re-claimed with a proper charger (correct charging amps/volts at the proper times in the charging cycle, with a proper pre-charge run down, or possibly two pre-charge run-down, re-charges).  

 

But you need a proper (approved) battery charger for the above to work.

[EffBee]

Thanks DR.  I'm using a Deltran Battery Tender.  Same one I've used for years on my PC680s on both of the 1100RT's I've owned.  It has a 12V 1.25A output rating.  I just went out and checked on it, and it's quite warm.  Hot almost.  I can hold it, but not all that comfortably.  So, I disconnected it and tried to start the bike although the BT still had a solid red light (no blinking green yet indicating 80% charge).  It fired right up.

 

Is this the right tender?  I'm going out this evening and I don't want to leave the wrong tender connected.  And yes, it's sometimes been connected for up to 4 weeks at a time. Possibly more. 

[Lowndes]

EffBee,

 

Another issue I've had is that the Odyssey PC680 is an AGM battery.  If your voltage regulator is OEM and Battery Tinder is not specified for AGM batteries, then you are charging the PC680 at 13.5v.  AGM batteries need 14.5v to fully charge, and the ECU needs a fully charged battery to work best.  At 13.5v you are getting about 80% charge at best.  The PC680 (actually any AGM) will last much longer properly, fully charged.  A low charge might be your problem.

 

Most bikes of this era (before AGM batteries were widely used) were designed for lead-acid batteries, therefore the 13.5v voltage regulator.  Look at your BatteryTINDER and see if it says "AGM rated" anywhere on it.  If not, it ain't.  Put a voltage test on it if possible.

 

Read more about the AGM batteries here:  https://www.batteryminders.com/agm-battery-info/  and    https://www.batteryminders.com/how-to-extend-a-batterys-life/

 

To get your bike to make 14.5v you will need a new voltage regulator.  It is located under the rear cover of the Bosch alternator and is a simple unit that contains the brushes and is connected by two screws, EZPZ replacement once you get to it.  EME has these replacement volt regs  (plus the fuel pump and filter kits) here:  https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BOSCH-Voltage-Regulator-BMW-R-K-p/boalt-reg365.htm

 

I was able to replace the volt reg with the alternator in situ, still mounted on the bike without even loosening the belt.  You will need to remove the ECU for access but not the ABS if you have one.  Remove the two small screws on the rear face of the cover and jiggle/rotate the cover until the cutout in the side of it is over the volt reg, then you can remove and replace the volt reg and reassemble everything.

 

I have three BatteryMINDers on the bikes.  My old BatteryTINDER is on the lawnmower now.  All BatteryMINDers are AGM rated.  I'm not affiliated in any way except as a very satisfied customer.

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, EffBee said:

Thanks DR.  I'm using a Deltran Battery Tender.  Same one I've used for years on my PC680s on both of the 1100RT's I've owned.  It has a 12V 1.25A output rating.  I just went out and checked on it, and it's quite warm.  Hot almost.  I can hold it, but not all that comfortably.  So, I disconnected it and tried to start the bike although the BT still had a solid red light (no blinking green yet indicating 80% charge).  It fired right up.

 

Is this the right tender?  I'm going out this evening and I don't want to leave the wrong tender connected.  And yes, it's sometimes been connected for up to 4 weeks at a time. Possibly more. 

 

Evening EffBee

 

Probably not the correct battery charger, most older models are not approved. Plus 1.25 amps is well below what it takes to properly   maintain an Odyssey PC 680 battery. If you go to the Odyssey web site they have an approved battery charger list.

 

You can sort of get by with an old low amp non approved charger but you sure don't want to leave it connected for any longer than is needed to get the green blinking light.

 

Problem is,  the older battery maintainers just don't have enough voltage at enough amps to FULLY re-charge a PC 680 battery so once they reach the max that they can charge the battery (80-85% usually)  they instantly start to sulfate the battery & lower it's cranking capacity.

 

You are probably better off just riding the motorcycle to keep the battery up (unless you have the correct charger), your BMW's alternator gives the battery a pretty good kick due to the high amp output. The stock 1100/1150 alternator voltage output is slightly on the low side (especially in cold weather)  but as you ride the engine heats the battery up so it then takes less voltage to keep a PC 680 charged (you probably won't get 100%  charge but in warm weather & a hot battery it will be plenty good enough).

 

You probably eventually want to get an approved charger then follow the Odyssey  reclaiming procedure to re-condition the battery & get it back close to rated amp output (my guess is that with using the incorrect charger  & leaving it hooked to the battery for extended periods that you now have a battery with a MUCH reduced cranking capacity.     

 

 

[EffBee]

3 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening EffBee

 

Probably not the correct battery charger, most older models are not approved. Plus 1.25 amps is well below what it takes to properly   maintain an Odyssey PC 680 battery. If you go to the Odyssey web site they have an approved battery charger list.

 

You can sort of get by with an old low amp non approved charger but you sure don't want to leave it connected for any longer than is needed to get the green blinking light.

 

Problem is,  the older battery maintainers just don't have enough voltage at enough amps to FULLY re-charge a PC 680 battery so once they reach the max that they can charge the battery (80-85% usually)  they instantly start to sulfate the battery.

 

You are probably better off just riding the motorcycle to keep the battery up (unless you have the correct charger), your BMW's alternator gives the battery a pretty good kick due to the high amp output. The stock 1100/1150 alternator voltage output is slightly on the low side (especially in cold weather)  but as you ride the engine heats the battery up so it then takes less voltage to keep a PC 680 charged (you probably won't get 100%  charge but in warm weather & a hot battery it will plenty good enough).        

 

 

 

So, if I understand you, disconnect the current BT when the green light starts flashing.  Don't wait for the green light to go solid?

[EffBee]

33 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

EffBee,

 

Another issue I've had is that the Odyssey PC680 is an AGM battery.  If your voltage regulator is OEM and Battery Tinder is not specified for AGM batteries, then you are charging the PC680 at 13.5v.  AGM batteries need 14.5v to fully charge, and the ECU needs a fully charged battery to work best.  At 13.5v you are getting about 80% charge at best.  The PC680 (actually any AGM) will last much longer properly, fully charged.  A low charge might be your problem.

 

Most bikes of this era (before AGM batteries were widely used) were designed for lead-acid batteries, therefore the 13.5v voltage regulator.  Look at your BatteryTINDER and see if it says "AGM rated" anywhere on it.  If not, it ain't.  Put a voltage test on it if possible.

 

Read more about the AGM batteries here:  https://www.batteryminders.com/agm-battery-info/  and    https://www.batteryminders.com/how-to-extend-a-batterys-life/

 

To get your bike to make 14.5v you will need a new voltage regulator.  It is located under the rear cover of the Bosch alternator and is a simple unit that contains the brushes and is connected by two screws, EZPZ replacement once you get to it.  EME has these replacement volt regs  (plus the fuel pump and filter kits) here:  https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BOSCH-Voltage-Regulator-BMW-R-K-p/boalt-reg365.htm

 

I was able to replace the volt reg with the alternator in situ, still mounted on the bike without even loosening the belt.  You will need to remove the ECU for access but not the ABS if you have one.  Remove the two small screws on the rear face of the cover and jiggle/rotate the cover until the cutout in the side of it is over the volt reg, then you can remove and replace the volt reg and reassemble everything.

 

I have three BatteryMINDers on the bikes.  My old BatteryTINDER is on the lawnmower now.  All BatteryMINDers are AGM rated.  I'm not affiliated in any way except as a very satisfied customer.

 

Thanks for this info.  I think it's probably time I ungraded by Battery Tender to the kind you're talking about. My PC680's have been lasting about 6 years, but unless I find water in the fuel when I disassemble the bike to do its service this week, this battery may be toast.  Either way, a Battery TINDER is on my list.  And probably a new fuel pump and internal hoses, just to be sure.  

[dirtrider]

15 hours ago, EffBee said:

 

So, if I understand you, disconnect the current BT when the green light starts flashing.  Don't wait for the green light to go solid?

 

Evening EffBee

 

I might have confused the issue for you. Whatever light configuration that  your charger uses to show fully charged, THAT, is when you need to disconnect. (that probably won't be FULLY charged  on a PC 680 but it is as high as YOUR charger can get it)

 

Once you decide on an approved charger look on Amazon as they usually have decent deals on those type chargers.

 

I (personally) have 2 CTEK approved chargers a  CTEK Snowflake MUS 7002 & CTEK Snowflake MUS 2500. (both have worked great on the PC 680 for some years now)

 

 

Approved chargers list____  https://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEY_approved_12V_chargers.pdf

 

Reclaiming procedure__ https://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ProceduretorecoverdeeplydischargedODYSSEY.pdf

[Lowndes]

EffBee,

 

Whatever brand or type of charger you get, having one with charge sensing for overcharge protection, that you can leave connected for long periods without damage or overcharge is good.  Mandatory for me.

 

Also, if you keep your bike in a non-heated area, having temperature sensing is good too, not just ambient but battery temperature sensing.  If the battery itself gets hot on a cold nite, you want the charger to adjust.

 

Another consideration is a desulfation cycle that will reverse the sulfation in the battery, one of the primary causes of battery failure.  I found out firsthand this actually works and can revive a "dead" AGM.  That's one reason I'm very positive on this feature and brand.  I'm by nature very skeptical of manufacturer's claims.

 

After a problem three years ago that turned out to be a "battery charging issue" with a relatively new PC680 in my '99 R1100S, I delved into batteries, AGM batteries, maintenance chargers, approved Odyssey chargers, voltage regulators, etc, and decided on the BatteryMINDer (unfortunately similar name and often confused with the BatteryTINDER brand), Mod 2012 AGM Rev A.  These have a connection for a remote temperature sensor that can be installed on the battery, but use the ambient temp without it.  I have two of this mod plus a third smaller model without the remote connection that have all worked very well.  

 

I remember the morning well, not long after purchasing the R11S, we were going on a long anticipated day ride up to the BRP and back.  After we were all geared up and ready to go I pushed the starter button and nothing.  Dead battery.  PC680.  It had been on my BatteryTINDER for weeks.  It was my first "experience" with fuel injection and ECU's on a bike, after not having a bike for 25 years, and I learned you cannot push-start a FI bike with a dead battery.  We (several buddies and an innocent bystander) pushed it up and down a long hill a couple of times without result.  The bystander casually asked between gasps if it was fuel injected.  It slowly dawned on us.  My buddies all drive airheads.  THAT was my intro and motivation to figure out what and how to get this sorted and avoid this happening again.  I did a lot of reading.

 

Dirtrider is probably thoroughly disgusted with me at this point, stepping all over his comments and altruistic advice above.  My most humble apologies, NO harm intended.  I'm just the newbie novice here and HE is the unequivocal and duly respected EXPERT here, so let's be clear about that.  I'm just trying to add color to his sage wisdom with my anecdotal and novice experience hoping it might help others to not have to reinvent this wheel.

 

https://www.amazon.com/BatteryMINDer-Model-2012-Maintainer-Motorcycles/dp/B005EKY1EM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=YAPJGCR85QBF&keywords=battery+minder+2012&qid=1568550449&s=automotive&sprefix=batteryminder+2012%2Cautomotive%2C153&sr=1-3

 

 

SAFE rides!!

 

Lowndes

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

42 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

 

Another consideration is a desulfation cycle that will reverse the sulfation in the battery, one of the primary causes of battery failure.  I found out firsthand this actually works and can revive a "dead" AGM.  That's one reason I'm very positive on this feature and brand.  I'm by nature very skeptical of manufacturer's claims.

 

 

Morning  Lowndes   

 

You shouldn't use a desulfation cycle on an Odyssey AGM battery. The proper way to disulfate an Odyssey is to the use the Odyssey  process  that I linked to above. The Odyssey is a hybrid type battery that is both a deep cycle & a starting battery.

 

 

[Lowndes]

Uh oh.  THANKS FOR THAT!!  I wondered if the "high frequency electronic pulses" were doing the same thing as Odyssey's procedure.

 

Thank you, sir!!

 

 

Lowndes

 

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Lowndes said:

Uh oh.  THANKS FOR THAT!!  I wondered if the "high frequency electronic pulses" were doing the same thing as Odyssey's procedure.

 

Thank you, sir!!

 

 

Lowndes

 

 

 

Afternoon  Lowndes   

 

I'm not sure why but possibly due to a chance of  outgassing, or maybe a possibility that  de-sulfation cycles can pulse over 15 volts,  (Odyssey warns to never exceed 15 volts into the 680 battery).

 

I don't think it is due to  "high frequency electronic pulses" as the de-sulfation   caution dates back to before most  electronic pulse type de-sulfation chargers but it is a definite possibility now that 'that' type of  technology is prevalent.

 

The PC 680 is kind of an odd duck as it uses (according to them anyhow)  pure lead in the plates.

 

I do know that their recommended recovery procedure works & works well as I have recovered a number of neglected or improperly charged PC 680 battery's back to full function again.

 

In doing the Odyssey recovery procedure it is an eye opener when you do the first rundown, then proper re-charge, then do the 2nd run-down where  it takes twice as long to rundown the 2nd time.   (very obvious capacity increase)

 

 

 

 

[Paul De]

I am a little surprised that no AGM compatible Deltran Battery Tenders are listed by Odessey, given how popular Battery Tenders are. 

 

Too bad because one of the best deals for a smart charger maintainer is the Battery Tender Power Plus 3 AMP at Costco $40 vs $70 retail.  I think it is an exclusive model for Costco.  Has enough amperage to charge a good size car battery in a reasonable amount of time but not so much to overheat a motorcycle battery

[dan cata]

I am interested in the output of this. I once sprayed some wd40 in the side stand switch and got something similar described in the initial post.

Never sprayed wd40 in there ever, no matter how dry the side stand retracts

 

Dan.

[EffBee]

Progress report:

 

OK, this is minor stuff, but I had to do some testing before tackling the bike’s innards.  Since the battery died, I put it on a regular Battery Tender.  It took about 30 hours for it to reach what the BT says is full charge (solid green light).  I took it off the BT last night.

 

This morning, it fired right up, so I took it out on a ride.  Fifty miles with just one bar showing on the RID, and came home with the yellow dash light flickering.  No hiccups, cutting out or anything.  Purred like a kitten.  No sign of water in the fuel that I thought might be causing the cutting out.  While on the ride, I jiggled the red on/off switch on the right handlebar and also did the same to the key, eventually taking each one enough off center that I’m pretty certain there’s no electrical problem inside these switches, outside wires notwithstanding.  At a stop, I turned the handlebars to each side fully, to see if that might be the problem.  Bike continued to purr.

 

I’ll begin taking the bike apart for a 12K service tomorrow.  Fluids.  Valves.  TB Sync.  While I have it apart I’m removing the fuel tank and draining it, looking for any indication of water (never was sure that was the problem, but this should help identify it if it was).  As long as it’s apart, I’m replacing the whole fuel-pump/filter/hose assembly, just to be sure (Beemer Boneyard).  Also, I’m going to replace the battery with another PC680.  I’ll keep it off the Battery Tender when it’s fully charged, and will probably pick up one of their Battery Minders this spring.  Meanwhile, I’m going to see if the existing PC680 can be desulphated.

 

While the bike is apart, I’m going to take a look at the Alternator Belt and the HES.  I might as well change the belt, and check the HES wiring for cracks in the insulation.  I have some 14ga multi-strand wire with silicon insulation that I can use to rewire it if needed. 

 

Anything else I should be looking at?

[dirtrider]

 

Evening EffBee

 

At 66,000 miles and if you are still running it in closed loop (proper CCP in fuse box)  then you might look into a new o2 sensor (you can install a universal o2 if you want). Or at least check to be sure that your present o2 sensor pig tail is not contacting the exhaust system. (if you install a universal sensor do not solder the wires as that blocks the reference air from reaching the sensor)

 

When inside  the fuel tank look closely at the 2 smaller drain & vent hoses, those run down through the fuel & can fill your garage with raw fuel if they start seeping. If you find that yours are degraded then the fun starts as those are 5mm submersible hoses & very/very difficult to source except at a BMW dealer.

 

Be careful in removing the fuel pump pass-through as I have seen the older BMW 1100/1150 bikes have the low-fuel float just crumble off of the sensor arm with little help.

 

When you have the fuel pump pass-through removed make sure that the little pass-through fitting for the  filler-cap-ring water drain hose in open & not rusted shut (in a lot of cases those are rusted & plugged)

 

If you haven't already done  it then you might want to add a side stand by-pass relay so you can run the engine in neutral  with the side stand down.

 

Check your chassis wire harnesses for crumbling harness covering (re-cover the bad areas).

 

At 66,000 miles you might want to remove your starter & verify the magnets are still attached securely. If OK then clean the starter out & re-lube.   

 

Might also be a good time to install fuel line quick disconnects (if you don't already have them). Put them on your Beemer Boneyard order.

 

If you find any oxidation of the fuel pump wire pig tail connector terminals then address that (I don't suggest trying to clean as once they oxidize they don't hold up very good). Personally I usually just cut the connectors off then install a  'sealed' weather pack connector (much better than stock).

[BrianM]

21 hours ago, EffBee said:

Progress report:

 

I have some 14ga multi-strand wire with silicon insulation that I can use to rewire it if needed. 

 

I think you mean silicone insulation. don't think silicon would make a good wire insulation.

[EffBee]

Correct, Brian  Silicone.

 

Thank you.

[Lowndes]

EffBee,

 

On the HES wiring, the outer sheath on the 5 wires from the HES sensors will look to be in perfect condition but the wires inside may have the crumbling insulation.  A good place to check the condition of these wires is at the connector at the other end of the HES wiring.  That connector is inside a larger, loose "bell" or "hood", a formerly soft weather protector that will have hardened with age making it difficult to disconnect the plug.  It is possible and maybe advisable to leave the "hood" intact, if at all possible.  You will need to disconnect it either way.  I managed it somehow. 

 

Replacing the HES wiring is easy, except for re-using the connector.  GSAddict did mine and used a new connector, did a beautiful job, too (2nd pic).

 

The sensors themselves are very robust from all accounts and rarely fail.  They have a short pigtail to connect to.  Make a short scribe/scratch to mark the timing on the HES plate before removing it (lower right corner, 4th pic).

 

Have a good selection of spaghetti on hand and silver solder, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dave_a]

Don't get "target fixation". Pump some fuel into a clear jar, like the Man said. Validate the pump, filter, and fuel supply.

dave_a 2 cents

[EffBee]

Basic service is done.  Fluids.  Valves.  TB Sync.  Put a gallon of gas in it (since it was down to the yellow warning light), threw the seats back on it and took it for a 50-mile ride.  Smooth as glass and not one hiccup.  However, my new fuel pump, filter and hoses arrive late today from Beemer Boneyard, so tomorrow the tank comes off, the fuel pump plate comes off, the fuel will be siphoned out and examined, and everything will be reassembled with new parts.  Also, the alternator cover is coming off for a new alt belt, and the HES will be examined at that time.  Like I said before, it's already been replaced once (just for peace of mind as it was working fine), so I'll be looking for cracks and testing for unseen cracks.

[roger 04 rt]

FB, It would help us all, if as DR suggested, you made a return volume test and see how close to 2 liters per minute you are at idle—before and after you new tank innards.

[EffBee]

Well, for now it looks like we're going to Torrey in the car.  Took the bike apart.  Alternator belt was starting to fray, although the tension seemed right.  HES looks like it has cracks in the wiring.  Fortunately, inside the tank there was no water, however the plug at the end of the fuel sending unit (which plugs into the fuel pump/filter plate) was hanging on by one strand on one side and three strands on the other.  The strands that had broken free, were dangerously close to touching.  To make matters worse, gentle as I tried to be, the remaining wire strands snapped when pulling the plug.  Closer inspection of the wires just before the plug show cracked insulation right where it comes out of the protective sheathing on the fuel sending unit.  I can slip some heat shrink over those cracks, but I don't know if regular heat shrink is fuel resistant, so if it isn't I'll have to find some of that.   I think the bike will run without the fuel sending unit connected (but I wouldn't have a RID fuel gauge).  But having come this far, I'm not going to MickeyMouse any fixes.

 

I've taken the plug apart on the fuel sending unit and have removed the pins.  Of course, they're German and I've never seen anything like them.  If I can find this plug and the pins, then I should be able to effect a repair.  Or I could solder to the pins where the original wire was crimped, and add shrink wrap as strain relief.  But that's cheesy, although it may be workable.  Opinions, please?

 

The alternative, of course, is to buy a $550 BMW fuel sending unit, which will come with the correct new plug attached, or try and source a used on online.  Beemer Boneyard had one for under $100,, but it's been sold.

 

So, for now, there's just too much iffy on the Old Girl to risk a long ride.  I have back surgery in mid October and by November I'll be able to get back to work on it and have it ready for Spring.  I'll have a new HES, new Alt Belt and a new fuel pump and filter.  I just need answers to a couple of questions.

 

1. Does anyone know where I can get that specific plug, with the connector pins?  BMW shows it HERE as the plug at the end of the wire on #3.  But of course, it has no part number and I doubt BMW sells it separately.  The entire sending unit is part #62 16 2 306 541

 

2. Where do I get fuel-resistant heat shrink in small quantities?  What I have is from Radio Shack and while I might try and put a piece in a Gerber jar with gasoline to test what it does in fuel, I would still rather have the right stuff.

 

3.  If I can't find a replacement plug and pins, is soldering onto the old pins a decent repair?  I am pretty good with a soldering iron, have an iron with a tip specifically for working on PC boards (which I've done), the right flux, and know how to create a proper joint quickly and cleanly so the wire past the joint stays flexible.  Again, shrink wrap will add some strain relief.

 

Thanks in advance for any help, answers and advice.

[Lowndes]

EffBee,

 

#2  If you can find any shrink tube that's still made in the US, you could call them to find out what type plastic is used and search the chemical resistance for that plastic.

 

#3  I say solder it.  The hard part is getting the pins out of the plastic plug.

[EffBee]

3 hours ago, Lowndes said:

EffBee,

 

#2  If you can find any shrink tube that's still made in the US, you could call them to find out what type plastic is used and search the chemical resistance for that plastic.

 

#3  I say solder it.  The hard part is getting the pins out of the plastic plug.

 

 

Thank you.

 

I got the plastic plug apart and was able to get the pins out.  It's all waiting for me to solder it, which I think I'll do when I get home from Fall Torrey.  But since the wires broke as I was removing the plug, I wasn't able to check if polarity is an issue.  I'll check to see if the wires have different striping on them (sometimes a good indicator) then try and blow up some of the pictures on the internet and see if I can tell which one goes where.  But I'm hoping polarity isn't an issue.  Does anyone know?

 

I'm also finding some used fuel senders, with good plugs (reportedly) on ebay for between $50 and $80.

 

Lastly, I found This Heat Shrink on Amazon which looks to be fuel resistant.  It's made of polyolefin.

[AndyS]

There seem to be some on ebay, also Motorworks UK have them - typically £75 (https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=6&Q=16+14+2+306+624&search=SEARCH)

[eddd]

All of this could have been avoided if you had only bought the correct green RT.

 

 

[AndyS]

Wow, that looks so lovely. So much better than my '17 Wethead!

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, EffBee said:

 

 

Thank you.

 

I got the plastic plug apart and was able to get the pins out.  It's all waiting for me to solder it, which I think I'll do when I get home from Fall Torrey.  But since the wires broke as I was removing the plug, I wasn't able to check if polarity is an issue.  I'll check to see if the wires have different striping on them (sometimes a good indicator) then try and blow up some of the pictures on the internet and see if I can tell which one goes where.  But I'm hoping polarity isn't an issue.  Does anyone know?

 

I'm also finding some used fuel senders, with good plugs (reportedly) on ebay for between $50 and $80.

 

Lastly, I found This Heat Shrink on Amazon which looks to be fuel resistant.  It's made of polyolefin.

 

Morning EffBee

 

It shouldn't be polarity sensitive as the fuel sender tube is just 2 resistor wires running vertical inside the tube with a shorting contact between the resistor wires  attached to the float  that runs up & down the wires & changes the resistance (basically a variable resistor, as you know resistors are not polarity sensitive).

 

I have repaired a few over the years, what I do is cut the wires just after they exit the top of the sender tube (staggered cut so the repair connections don't line up), then install new fuel resistant insulated wires using splice clips then soldering (keep the solder joint very small & just to the splice clips to prevent future wire fractures).

 

Then I just slide on short sections of tight fitting sumergable fuel proof tygon tubing over the staggered repair solder joints, then I slide on the wire covering (as a rule the original is still good), then I open the original terminal rearmost wire crimp (best possible), then strip the new added sender wires to allow a half-assed crimp to the terminals, then solder securely. I keep the solder joint short & don't strip back any more of the wire insulation than absolutely necessary.

 

 If done correctly, joint is kept short & neat then no heat shrink required at the terminal connections as the connector keeps them apart.  As long as the wires/connections are kept apart they really don't need to be covered as nothing can short through the fuel (heck, those long resistor wires inside the float tube are fully exposed to the fuel for their entire lengths & the connector is not a sealed connector). Plus the open armature 12 volt fuel pump is actually running in the fuel using the fuel to keep it cool & lubricate it.   

[EffBee]

Thank you, DR.  Fortunately, the clips inside the plastic plug on the fuel sender tube have shown to have a long neck below the crimp area.  Furthermore, they're offset to the outside edge.  Plenty of room for a 1/8" parallel solder joint on each one.  I've already re-flared the tangs on the metal clips (female in this case), so they'll stay put when I slide them back into the plastic plug.

 

You mention Tygon tubing.  Is that heat shrink?  If not, I do need to shrink over a couple of adjacent cracks on the wires, about 1.5" above the plug, right where they exit the loose black wire cover that runs down the length of the Fuel Sender.  Will the polyolefin shrink wrap I referenced above be fuel resistant?

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, EffBee said:

Thank you, DR.  Fortunately, the clips inside the plastic plug on the fuel sender tube have shown to have a long neck before the crimp area.  Furthermore, they're offset to the outside edge.  Plenty of room for a 1/8" parallel solder joint on each one.  I've already re-flared the tangs on the metal clips (female in this case), so they'll stay put when I slide them back into the plastic plug.

 

You mention Tygon tubing.  Is that heat shrink?  If not, I do need to shrink over a couple of adjacent cracks on the wires, about 1.5" above the plug, right where they exit the loose black wire cover that runs down the length of the Fuel Sender.  Will the polyolefin shrink wrap I referenced above be fuel resistant?

 

Morning EffBee

 

Tygon tubing comes in many verities  but the one that I use is just a basic fuel/chemical/oil resistant hose.

 

The good part about most Tygon tubing is that it is very fuel/alcohol  resistant so holds up well to under fuel usage. The bad part of using Tygon tubing is that it hardens when used in fuel type situations (it won't split or leak) but it stiffens up considerably. That is the reason that I only use it to cover  the  wire joints & not the entire wire length. If used to cover the entire wire length it would get hard enough to make removing the pump pass through difficult.

 

Personally, I wouldn't try to cover the cracked wire insulation but would just splice on new fuel-resistant-insulation wires as far up as possible, then cover the splice joints.

[EffBee]

Thanks again.  Much to do over the winter.  This was going to be our last ride since I'm scheduled for back surgery in Oct., with a 6-wk recovery and no riding for 3 months.  We'll go to Fall Torrey in the car, enjoy every mile, have a great time with friends and then do it all over again on two wheels in the Spring.  Meanwhile this winterI'll be tackling an HES rebuild, new alt belt, new fuel pump and filter, blow out some of the vent lines and charcoal canister lines, fix this particular plug, and along with the full service she's had, get 'er ready to go.  Seems a crime to have already slipped on a new pair of Pilot Roads and then have to let 'em sit all winter.  But it's one less thing to do in the spring.  At least the garage is heated, so they'll stay warm.

 

Thanks again.

[Lowndes]

7 hours ago, EffBee said:

 

 

Thank you.

 

I got the plastic plug apart and was able to get the pins out.  It's all waiting for me to solder it, which I think I'll do when I get home from Fall Torrey.  But since the wires broke as I was removing the plug, I wasn't able to check if polarity is an issue.  I'll check to see if the wires have different striping on them (sometimes a good indicator) then try and blow up some of the pictures on the internet and see if I can tell which one goes where.  But I'm hoping polarity isn't an issue.  Does anyone know?

 

I'm also finding some used fuel senders, with good plugs (reportedly) on ebay for between $50 and $80.

 

Lastly, I found This Heat Shrink on Amazon which looks to be fuel resistant.  It's made of polyolefin.

 

 

Polarity??  Just make sure the right wires go to the correct plug terminals (I hope you took pics first!!)

 

"Fuel senders"??  Not fuel pumps I'm assuming, maybe CO2 plug, or air/fuel adjusters (AF-XiED, or PC)??

 

Polyolefins are"B" rated at 20 deg C for gas.  "Extensive absorption and/or
rapid permeation".  Might want to get out the Gerber jars.  Shrink it first. Or just go with Dirtriders suggestion and use the Tygon tubing.  Plenty of sizes available on fleabay.

 

[Paul De]

Gasoline is tough in that it is a complex mixture and can have some aliphatic components that will have solubility into low density, low crystallinity PE...guessing that is what would be used in the shrink tube. The PE gasoline cans we have in the garage would have higher density and high crystalinity PE which would stand up well to gasoline.  Agree with Lowndes that if you are to test the PE shrink tube, go ahead and shrink it before testing as it might help.  Unless you test it over winter be sure to keep a clean sample of the same dimension of the soaked samples for comparison as initial results might be subtle.  If you can put the jar + samples in a warm temp controlled environment, like your wife's yogurt maker, it would accelerate the results (ignoring the kerfuffle when she finds out what you did for the sake of science and future Mars missions).

[EffBee]

Thanks, Paul.  I was planning on using shrink tubing in two areas.  One was over a couple of adjacent cracks in the Fuel Sender leads just where they exit the bottom of the protective sheathing.  The second, was as strain relief on the solder joints for the plug that connects to the fuel pump plate.  As you may have read, I got the plug apart and there's plenty of room to solder below the crimp area and then put the plug back together.  I thought a little heat shrink might help hold things together.  However, I have found the correct plug in the BMW microfiche.  it is part #  83 30 0 412 343 and runs about $12.  I figure I'm better off using a new plug, crimping the wires properly, and then using a bit of Tygon over the adjacent cracks that are further up the FS wires.  Not much above those cracks, BMW zip ties the FS wires, in their own shroud, to the FS tube.  So, if I cut the zip tie, run the Tygon over the individual wires from just below the cracks to up past the zip tie point, then zip tie it all back to the fuel sender tube, I should have a factory connector at the end of the wires, and not much extra Tygon hanging down which as DR explained, does harden a fair bit.  It should all go back together as it should and be easily serviceable in the future.

 

BTW, any opinions on fuel-resistant zip ties, or are they all that way?

[EffBee]

More news.  Leaving the bike behind on this Torrey trip and taking the car, means the end of the season for me.  I'm having surgery when I get back, so I'll be out for at least a month to six weeks.  By then it'll be November, and that means a car trip out of the Colorado snow, to CA to see family for Thanksgiving.  I'm going to take the winter and make a lot of this stuff new on my RT.  Not just rebuilding the HES and the entire fuel pump/filter plate, but the clutch cable, throttle cables and distribution box.  Then I'm sending my Works Performance shocks in for a rebuild (Works is no longer in business since the owner passed away, but his daughter and son-in-law worked at the factory and are doing rebuilds).  And of course, all of the stuff I've delineated above.  

[Skywagon]

EffBee...I don't think heat shrink is fuel proof.  Something I did on a similar issue on a different petrol burner was actually enclose the wires in a 2ft  fuel line.  Then I sealed the ends with below.  It's been working that way for about 5 years so far.  Not sure if you could make that work in the fuel tank area or not.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-29132-MotoSeal-Ultimate-Gasket/dp/B000HBGHKE/ref=sr_1_1?tag=milbymot-20