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Experience experimenting with oil

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PatM
3 hours ago, PadG said:

I think that it is irrelevant, IF that oil passes the JASO MA2 tests for the frictional requirement.  Putting moly additive on top of that is the real issue, since that will most likely take the resulting oil out of the MA2 spec.

You are quite right, if the oil you use is JASO MA2, it meets the specs, then it's ok to use in our bikes. As I said, I was just curious. Does it matter? Probably not but so is this whole thread.  ;)

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Dave_in_TX
On 2/20/2020 at 10:36 AM, AZgman said:

I prefer a group IV Ester based synthetic such as Ravenol 5w-40. I have also used Castrol Power 1 (not group IV) when on sale from Amazon. Both meet BMW specifications and are motorcycle specific oils with significant engineering and R&D development. I don't think it is worth the monetary savings to go with anything less. YMMV so ride on!

If I recall correctly, Group IV oils are PAO and Ester base stock is Group V. BTW, Castrol is Group III (not necessarily a bad thing).

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AZgman
5 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

If I recall correctly, Group IV oils are PAO and Ester base stock is Group V. BTW, Castrol is Group III (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

I stand corrected. Ester based oils are indeed Group V. The way I read it, you want the best base oil you can get rather than "beefing up" a poorer grade base oil. I am sure that Castrol's Group III oil is just fine for everyday use.

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Sandlapper

Oil, Oil, Oil.....It lubricates is about all I know about it....

 

So got a question I bought oil for my change from BeemerBoneyard and they sent a LiquiMoly of 5w-40 with all the specs( API SL JASO MA/MA2 )that have been talked about in this thread...Was in NAPA earlier today and saw these containers on the shelf with a good price attached, (didn't think about said specs above ^^) bought 4 qts......got home and started looking for said specs and couldn't find them on the container.

 

Is it the same or maybe an equal?

LiquiMoly Page

https://products.liqui-moly.com/synthoil-high-tech-5w-40-1.html

BeemerBoneyard Page

https://www.beemerboneyard.com/lqm5w401l.html

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lkraus

Those are different oils.  Beemer Boneyard correctly provided Lubri-Moly item 2592.  NAPA is selling 1855, which is not MA2, so it probably has friction modifiers which make it unsuitable for a wet clutch.

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Paul De

 Ikraus is correct to point out what ever you use it would need the JASO MA1/MA2 (BMW specs say MA2) for a single bath wet clutch motor/trans.  This thread got long, but buried in here is a number of comments on the Liguimoly 5W-40.  There is even a quoted response to a member from Liquimoly CS/TS that speaks to the question beat down hard here on if the inclusion of the molybdenum additive is allowable which the BMW's owner manual specifically excludes but is present in the BMW branded Advantec oil they recommend for the Wethead motor.  The conclusion for me is if your under warranty best stick with Advantec oil to void any claims problems and then when out of waranty, if you desire, switch to Liquimoly 5W-40.

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BrianM

The BMW manual states not to use molybdenum additives. BMW oil has molybdenum in it. These are not necessarily contradictory statements.

 

How is it contained in the oil? The analysis says molybdenum is present in the oil, but not in what form.

 

Most common are dissolved in solution or added in suspension - usually as molybdenum-sulfur compounds. Which is BMW oil? Does one form cause more trouble for the coatings than the other?

 

Personally, I am using BMW oil until out of warranty. I will then either continue to use BMW oil or switch to oil with no molybdenum.

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Paul De
5 hours ago, BrianM said:

Personally, I am using BMW oil until out of warranty. I will then either continue to use BMW oil or switch to oil with no molybdenum.

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

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BrianM
29 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

 

Sounds pretty sinister.

 

BMW does not actually state that oils containing molybdenum cannot be used.

 

From my manual

 

Specification  SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2, Additives (for instance, molybdenum based substances) are prohibited, because they would attackthe coatongs on engine components., BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad AVANTEC Ultimate oil.

 

No where in the statement does it say the oil cannot contain molybdenum.

 

From Liquidations Moly website (note this for their additive, not their oil)

 

LIQUI MOLY Oil Additive was the first product we put on the market. It now features an improved formula. The solid lubricant MoS2 it contains reduces wear, especially on older engines, and improves the durability and function of the components.

 

Note it lists the MoS2 in solid (suspension) form, not in solution. My guess the problem is the interaction of solid MoS2 (or any other additive in suspension form - Slick 50 was teflon compund in suspension) and the coatings, not the presence of Mo itself.

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Dave_in_TX
39 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

A virgin oil analysis of Advantec posted in this thread confirms that it does indeed contain moly

 

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Paul De

We might be spitting hairs on semantics in that anything added to a oil base stock would be an additive including all forms of molybdenum.  That said, I find it curious that BMW responded to your inquiry with a rather absolute statement which does not split hairs and now we should be splitting hairs on their succinctly stated position.  Without any new information or statement from BMW, why do so?  BMW made no mention in the the response to you that it must be a proper form molybdenum, just "any molydbenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components". And yet we know their statement is BS given that there is molybdenum in their branded oil.   Add in the response Liqui Moly gave to member 92Merc where they inquired more detail on these vulnerable coatings that would be damaged and BMW was unresponsive.  It seems that BMW has created confusion and wants to maintain that confusion.  Sure there may be a less sinister explanation but it is equally possible that BMW wants the consumer to be confused with the goal of keeping the faithful buying their branded oil.  IMHO, BMW lacks credibility on the no molybdenum requirement.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:24 PM, BrianM said:

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

 

 

 

I thought I would reach out to Liquid Moly, just to see what they have to say.  This is their response:

 

Dear Dale,

thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

BMW Motorbike prohibits in its service instructions the use of Molybenum Disulfide (MoS2) based additives in the engine oil. The reason is - according to BMW-  that under certain circumstances coatings in the engine can be peeled off.
Neither LIQUI MOLY or other contacts in the lubricant business have observed the peel effeffect  of any coating in an BMW Motorbike engines, yet.
On the BMW Motorbike Days 2019 in Garmisch Patenkirchen non of the engineers of BMW Motorbike could answer the question of a participant which coating exactly may peel off...

We have inhouse experience with R1200 and R1250 engines, with a 3% treatrate of LIQUI MOLY Motorbike Oil Additive for more than 80.000 kms / 50.000 miles now without any issue. Indeed, we observe a smooth running of the engine and also see no negative effekt on the wet clutch.

Further none of our LIQUI MOLY Motorbike 4T oils do contain MoS2 - we just offer it as additional treatment.


We hope we could help you with our information. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.

 




Freundliche Grüße / Best regards
 
i. A. Steffen Niemietz
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
 
F & E / Anwendungstechnik
 
Phone:        +49 731 1420-658
Mobil:        +49 162 2815064
Fax:        +49 731 1420-44658
steffen.niemietz@liqui-moly.de
   
LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4 | 89081 Ulm | GERMANY
   
www.liqui-moly.de

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realshelby

Yep, while some may claim BMW isn't saying molybdenum cannot be in there oil, that adding additives with molybdenum is what they do not want you to do, there is absolute evidence in BMW official replies that they do not want ANY molybdenum in engines they produce.

 

Yet, the very oil they tell us to use has a higher amount of molybdenum than some other BMW specification meeting oils do. 

 

I can see where the claim BMW is talking about "additives" that contain molybdenum is confusing. Maybe they would add too much moly. 

 

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that BMW is simply covering their ass. When LM says they can find no adverse effects from molybdenum in BMW engines, and BMW recommended oil DOES contain molybdenum, that tells me molybdenum does not harm BMW Boxer engines. Like anything, too much might be not so good. I do not add oil additives of any kind, so won't be staying up late at night worrying.....

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Dave_in_TX
1 hour ago, realshelby said:

Yep, while some may claim BMW isn't saying molybdenum cannot be in there oil, that adding additives with molybdenum is what they do not want you to do, there is absolute evidence in BMW official replies that they do not want ANY molybdenum in engines they produce.

 

Yet, the very oil they tell us to use has a higher amount of molybdenum than some other BMW specification meeting oils do. 

 

I can see where the claim BMW is talking about "additives" that contain molybdenum is confusing. Maybe they would add too much moly. 

 

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that BMW is simply covering their ass. When LM says they can find no adverse effects from molybdenum in BMW engines, and BMW recommended oil DOES contain molybdenum, that tells me molybdenum does not harm BMW Boxer engines. Like anything, too much might be not so good. I do not add oil additives of any kind, so won't be staying up late at night worrying.....

My own interpretation is that BMW is cautioning against the use of over the counter additives. I suspect the reply to the question sent to BMW regarding this was answered by someone without the proper knowledge and BMW engineering was not consulted before answering.

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realshelby

Yet, were this to be presented in court, it clearly states "additives are prohibited". "Additionally...ANY moly based substances can damage coatings".... certainly sounds to me like that is NOT pertaining to additives. Regardless additives are in every jug of oil we buy. Part of the refining process. 

 

How would a jury read into that when the "defense" shows a report of BMW's oil having moly in it!

 

You may be correct in saying this person isn't qualified, or maybe properly informed. Or does it even matter about the moly? It could be more of an emissions issue than any coating ( unless by coating they are referring to coatings on catalysts? ). 

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LAF

I have used 5% strait moly in my FD on every BMW and Yamaha I have owned. 

 

That said it is just gears turning.  I would be a bit worried in the oil due to the clutch.  It must not matter as BMW oil has a boat load according to the posted oil analysis. 

 

Nikasil was what I always thought the cylinders were coated with.  Back in the day I took my HD from 88" to 98" jugs and they were nikasil coated. 

 

Moly just smooths and polish I mean I have seen microscopic pictures of gears before hours run, and after hours run with moly, and it is amazing what it looks like. 

 

I just dont see the need in the motor anyway.  I mean your whole deal is your rings and cylinder wear in.  I dont know if many here have installed pistons and rings and used a ring cutter and file, but it is your whole project in that fitting of those rings.  I have not messed with them in 15 years or so but I would guess rings are pretty much perfect with the pistons in the process now, back when I did it they were not.  And you could order different rings from pistons and that could be an issue. 

 

Hell I dont think the motor cares if it is dino, Group III, V, and it and the clutch are just fine without any added moly or I would do it.  Trust me I am all for better living through chemistry and if I thought for a second moly would help I would use it.  I have what is left of a quart that cost out of this world when I replaced it 10 years ago.  I bet a quart if you could get it would cost 100 bucks easy. I use such a small amount in my FD over the years it may last until I am gone.  Here is what I use including when I had my LT.

Molykote

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Paul De
9 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

I suspect the reply to the question sent to BMW regarding this was answered by someone without the proper knowledge and BMW engineering was not consulted before answering.

Au contraire.   This person is representing a large multinational corporation with deep pockets and eye to limit liability.  If they are not expert in this area they consult the expert(s) in the organization.   And even with an expert response it would be vetted before hitting the send button.  He may have a FAQ library to pull vetted responses from, but BMW sure as hell would not allow an non-expert to wing it, and an expert would know better than to wing it, especially in the US.

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WBinDE
On 5/27/2020 at 10:41 AM, realshelby said:

Yet, were this to be presented in court, it clearly states "additives are prohibited". "Additionally...ANY moly based substances can damage coatings".... certainly sounds to me like that is NOT pertaining to additives. Regardless additives are in every jug of oil we buy. Part of the refining process. 

 

How would a jury read into that when the "defense" shows a report of BMW's oil having moly in it!

 

You may be correct in saying this person isn't qualified, or maybe properly informed. Or does it even matter about the moly? It could be more of an emissions issue than any coating ( unless by coating they are referring to coatings on catalysts? ). 

 

#1 - IANAL, but my reading comprehension is good

#2 - The moly in BMW-branded oil would be considered a constituent, not an additive. Just like "gasoline" from the pump is more than just a mix of heptane and iso-octane, "oil" from a bottle is more than just "oil". BMW knows it's there because they specify that level (and not some other level) on purpose, and the engine and emission controls work fine with the specified amount of moly in the oil.  What they don't want is for you to use an aftermarket additive that would increase the moly level above the level they've decided is appropriate. 

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LAF

I think we need more Zinc :5147:

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Dave_in_TX
8 hours ago, WBinDE said:

 

#1 - IANAL, but my reading comprehension is good

#2 - The moly in BMW-branded oil would be considered a constituent, not an additive. Just like "gasoline" from the pump is more than just a mix of heptane and iso-octane, "oil" from a bottle is more than just "oil". BMW knows it's there because they specify that level (and not some other level) on purpose, and the engine and emission controls work fine with the specified amount of moly in the oil.  What they don't want is for you to use an aftermarket additive that would increase the moly level above the level they've decided is appropriate. 

What you are referring as constituents is usually referred to as the motor oil's additive package. However I agree that those constituents were not what BMW had in mind when referring to additives.

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