Jump to content

Experience experimenting with oil


RecentConvert

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, PadG said:

I think that it is irrelevant, IF that oil passes the JASO MA2 tests for the frictional requirement.  Putting moly additive on top of that is the real issue, since that will most likely take the resulting oil out of the MA2 spec.

You are quite right, if the oil you use is JASO MA2, it meets the specs, then it's ok to use in our bikes. As I said, I was just curious. Does it matter? Probably not but so is this whole thread.  ;)

Link to comment
On 2/20/2020 at 10:36 AM, AZgman said:

I prefer a group IV Ester based synthetic such as Ravenol 5w-40. I have also used Castrol Power 1 (not group IV) when on sale from Amazon. Both meet BMW specifications and are motorcycle specific oils with significant engineering and R&D development. I don't think it is worth the monetary savings to go with anything less. YMMV so ride on!

If I recall correctly, Group IV oils are PAO and Ester base stock is Group V. BTW, Castrol is Group III (not necessarily a bad thing).

Link to comment
5 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

If I recall correctly, Group IV oils are PAO and Ester base stock is Group V. BTW, Castrol is Group III (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

I stand corrected. Ester based oils are indeed Group V. The way I read it, you want the best base oil you can get rather than "beefing up" a poorer grade base oil. I am sure that Castrol's Group III oil is just fine for everyday use.

Link to comment
  • 2 months later...
Sandlapper

Oil, Oil, Oil.....It lubricates is about all I know about it....

 

So got a question I bought oil for my change from BeemerBoneyard and they sent a LiquiMoly of 5w-40 with all the specs( API SL JASO MA/MA2 )that have been talked about in this thread...Was in NAPA earlier today and saw these containers on the shelf with a good price attached, (didn't think about said specs above ^^) bought 4 qts......got home and started looking for said specs and couldn't find them on the container.

 

Is it the same or maybe an equal?

LiquiMoly Page

https://products.liqui-moly.com/synthoil-high-tech-5w-40-1.html

BeemerBoneyard Page

https://www.beemerboneyard.com/lqm5w401l.html

Link to comment

Those are different oils.  Beemer Boneyard correctly provided Lubri-Moly item 2592.  NAPA is selling 1855, which is not MA2, so it probably has friction modifiers which make it unsuitable for a wet clutch.

  • Like 3
Link to comment

 Ikraus is correct to point out what ever you use it would need the JASO MA1/MA2 (BMW specs say MA2) for a single bath wet clutch motor/trans.  This thread got long, but buried in here is a number of comments on the Liguimoly 5W-40.  There is even a quoted response to a member from Liquimoly CS/TS that speaks to the question beat down hard here on if the inclusion of the molybdenum additive is allowable which the BMW's owner manual specifically excludes but is present in the BMW branded Advantec oil they recommend for the Wethead motor.  The conclusion for me is if your under warranty best stick with Advantec oil to void any claims problems and then when out of waranty, if you desire, switch to Liquimoly 5W-40.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

The BMW manual states not to use molybdenum additives. BMW oil has molybdenum in it. These are not necessarily contradictory statements.

 

How is it contained in the oil? The analysis says molybdenum is present in the oil, but not in what form.

 

Most common are dissolved in solution or added in suspension - usually as molybdenum-sulfur compounds. Which is BMW oil? Does one form cause more trouble for the coatings than the other?

 

Personally, I am using BMW oil until out of warranty. I will then either continue to use BMW oil or switch to oil with no molybdenum.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
5 hours ago, BrianM said:

Personally, I am using BMW oil until out of warranty. I will then either continue to use BMW oil or switch to oil with no molybdenum.

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

Link to comment
29 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

 

Sounds pretty sinister.

 

BMW does not actually state that oils containing molybdenum cannot be used.

 

From my manual

 

Specification  SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2, Additives (for instance, molybdenum based substances) are prohibited, because they would attackthe coatongs on engine components., BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad AVANTEC Ultimate oil.

 

No where in the statement does it say the oil cannot contain molybdenum.

 

From Liquidations Moly website (note this for their additive, not their oil)

 

LIQUI MOLY Oil Additive was the first product we put on the market. It now features an improved formula. The solid lubricant MoS2 it contains reduces wear, especially on older engines, and improves the durability and function of the components.

 

Note it lists the MoS2 in solid (suspension) form, not in solution. My guess the problem is the interaction of solid MoS2 (or any other additive in suspension form - Slick 50 was teflon compund in suspension) and the coatings, not the presence of Mo itself.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Dave_in_TX
39 minutes ago, Paul De said:

Given any oil that meets the viscosity specification will be synthetic and it appears all synthetic oils contain some level of Molybdenum, it might be near impossible to actually use a no molybdenum oil in your bike.   The Liquimoly CS/TS comments included that BMW themselves would not specifically explain their position and that Liquimoly's long term R1200GS test mule showed no ill effects of their molybdenum oil on tear down inspections.  The consensus here sort of settled on that BMW was purposefully confusing the issue with the no molybdenum statement in their specification all while the Advantec Ultimate oil actually has molybdenum in it.  Curiously no specification is available from BMW or Shell on the Advantec Ultrimate oil.  The goal!?...to keep us buying their BMW branded oil.

A virgin oil analysis of Advantec posted in this thread confirms that it does indeed contain moly

 

Link to comment

We might be spitting hairs on semantics in that anything added to a oil base stock would be an additive including all forms of molybdenum.  That said, I find it curious that BMW responded to your inquiry with a rather absolute statement which does not split hairs and now we should be splitting hairs on their succinctly stated position.  Without any new information or statement from BMW, why do so?  BMW made no mention in the the response to you that it must be a proper form molybdenum, just "any molydbenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components". And yet we know their statement is BS given that there is molybdenum in their branded oil.   Add in the response Liqui Moly gave to member 92Merc where they inquired more detail on these vulnerable coatings that would be damaged and BMW was unresponsive.  It seems that BMW has created confusion and wants to maintain that confusion.  Sure there may be a less sinister explanation but it is equally possible that BMW wants the consumer to be confused with the goal of keeping the faithful buying their branded oil.  IMHO, BMW lacks credibility on the no molybdenum requirement.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:24 PM, BrianM said:

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

 

 

 

I thought I would reach out to Liquid Moly, just to see what they have to say.  This is their response:

 

Dear Dale,

thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

BMW Motorbike prohibits in its service instructions the use of Molybenum Disulfide (MoS2) based additives in the engine oil. The reason is - according to BMW-  that under certain circumstances coatings in the engine can be peeled off.
Neither LIQUI MOLY or other contacts in the lubricant business have observed the peel effeffect  of any coating in an BMW Motorbike engines, yet.
On the BMW Motorbike Days 2019 in Garmisch Patenkirchen non of the engineers of BMW Motorbike could answer the question of a participant which coating exactly may peel off...

We have inhouse experience with R1200 and R1250 engines, with a 3% treatrate of LIQUI MOLY Motorbike Oil Additive for more than 80.000 kms / 50.000 miles now without any issue. Indeed, we observe a smooth running of the engine and also see no negative effekt on the wet clutch.

Further none of our LIQUI MOLY Motorbike 4T oils do contain MoS2 - we just offer it as additional treatment.


We hope we could help you with our information. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.

 




Freundliche Grüße / Best regards
 
i. A. Steffen Niemietz
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
 
F & E / Anwendungstechnik
 
Phone:        +49 731 1420-658
Mobil:        +49 162 2815064
Fax:        +49 731 1420-44658
steffen.niemietz@liqui-moly.de
   
LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4 | 89081 Ulm | GERMANY
   
www.liqui-moly.de

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
realshelby

Yep, while some may claim BMW isn't saying molybdenum cannot be in there oil, that adding additives with molybdenum is what they do not want you to do, there is absolute evidence in BMW official replies that they do not want ANY molybdenum in engines they produce.

 

Yet, the very oil they tell us to use has a higher amount of molybdenum than some other BMW specification meeting oils do. 

 

I can see where the claim BMW is talking about "additives" that contain molybdenum is confusing. Maybe they would add too much moly. 

 

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that BMW is simply covering their ass. When LM says they can find no adverse effects from molybdenum in BMW engines, and BMW recommended oil DOES contain molybdenum, that tells me molybdenum does not harm BMW Boxer engines. Like anything, too much might be not so good. I do not add oil additives of any kind, so won't be staying up late at night worrying.....

Link to comment
Dave_in_TX
1 hour ago, realshelby said:

Yep, while some may claim BMW isn't saying molybdenum cannot be in there oil, that adding additives with molybdenum is what they do not want you to do, there is absolute evidence in BMW official replies that they do not want ANY molybdenum in engines they produce.

 

Yet, the very oil they tell us to use has a higher amount of molybdenum than some other BMW specification meeting oils do. 

 

I can see where the claim BMW is talking about "additives" that contain molybdenum is confusing. Maybe they would add too much moly. 

 

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that BMW is simply covering their ass. When LM says they can find no adverse effects from molybdenum in BMW engines, and BMW recommended oil DOES contain molybdenum, that tells me molybdenum does not harm BMW Boxer engines. Like anything, too much might be not so good. I do not add oil additives of any kind, so won't be staying up late at night worrying.....

My own interpretation is that BMW is cautioning against the use of over the counter additives. I suspect the reply to the question sent to BMW regarding this was answered by someone without the proper knowledge and BMW engineering was not consulted before answering.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
realshelby

Yet, were this to be presented in court, it clearly states "additives are prohibited". "Additionally...ANY moly based substances can damage coatings".... certainly sounds to me like that is NOT pertaining to additives. Regardless additives are in every jug of oil we buy. Part of the refining process. 

 

How would a jury read into that when the "defense" shows a report of BMW's oil having moly in it!

 

You may be correct in saying this person isn't qualified, or maybe properly informed. Or does it even matter about the moly? It could be more of an emissions issue than any coating ( unless by coating they are referring to coatings on catalysts? ). 

Link to comment

I have used 5% strait moly in my FD on every BMW and Yamaha I have owned. 

 

That said it is just gears turning.  I would be a bit worried in the oil due to the clutch.  It must not matter as BMW oil has a boat load according to the posted oil analysis. 

 

Nikasil was what I always thought the cylinders were coated with.  Back in the day I took my HD from 88" to 98" jugs and they were nikasil coated. 

 

Moly just smooths and polish I mean I have seen microscopic pictures of gears before hours run, and after hours run with moly, and it is amazing what it looks like. 

 

I just dont see the need in the motor anyway.  I mean your whole deal is your rings and cylinder wear in.  I dont know if many here have installed pistons and rings and used a ring cutter and file, but it is your whole project in that fitting of those rings.  I have not messed with them in 15 years or so but I would guess rings are pretty much perfect with the pistons in the process now, back when I did it they were not.  And you could order different rings from pistons and that could be an issue. 

 

Hell I dont think the motor cares if it is dino, Group III, V, and it and the clutch are just fine without any added moly or I would do it.  Trust me I am all for better living through chemistry and if I thought for a second moly would help I would use it.  I have what is left of a quart that cost out of this world when I replaced it 10 years ago.  I bet a quart if you could get it would cost 100 bucks easy. I use such a small amount in my FD over the years it may last until I am gone.  Here is what I use including when I had my LT.

Molykote

Link to comment
9 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

I suspect the reply to the question sent to BMW regarding this was answered by someone without the proper knowledge and BMW engineering was not consulted before answering.

Au contraire.   This person is representing a large multinational corporation with deep pockets and eye to limit liability.  If they are not expert in this area they consult the expert(s) in the organization.   And even with an expert response it would be vetted before hitting the send button.  He may have a FAQ library to pull vetted responses from, but BMW sure as hell would not allow an non-expert to wing it, and an expert would know better than to wing it, especially in the US.

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/27/2020 at 10:41 AM, realshelby said:

Yet, were this to be presented in court, it clearly states "additives are prohibited". "Additionally...ANY moly based substances can damage coatings".... certainly sounds to me like that is NOT pertaining to additives. Regardless additives are in every jug of oil we buy. Part of the refining process. 

 

How would a jury read into that when the "defense" shows a report of BMW's oil having moly in it!

 

You may be correct in saying this person isn't qualified, or maybe properly informed. Or does it even matter about the moly? It could be more of an emissions issue than any coating ( unless by coating they are referring to coatings on catalysts? ). 

 

#1 - IANAL, but my reading comprehension is good

#2 - The moly in BMW-branded oil would be considered a constituent, not an additive. Just like "gasoline" from the pump is more than just a mix of heptane and iso-octane, "oil" from a bottle is more than just "oil". BMW knows it's there because they specify that level (and not some other level) on purpose, and the engine and emission controls work fine with the specified amount of moly in the oil.  What they don't want is for you to use an aftermarket additive that would increase the moly level above the level they've decided is appropriate. 

Link to comment
8 hours ago, WBinDE said:

 

#1 - IANAL, but my reading comprehension is good

#2 - The moly in BMW-branded oil would be considered a constituent, not an additive. Just like "gasoline" from the pump is more than just a mix of heptane and iso-octane, "oil" from a bottle is more than just "oil". BMW knows it's there because they specify that level (and not some other level) on purpose, and the engine and emission controls work fine with the specified amount of moly in the oil.  What they don't want is for you to use an aftermarket additive that would increase the moly level above the level they've decided is appropriate. 

What you are referring as constituents is usually referred to as the motor oil's additive package. However I agree that those constituents were not what BMW had in mind when referring to additives.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 9 months later...
Paddler

So, if the lower viscosity is only important at lower temperatures, why wouldn't Rotella T4 (15-40) be okay?  It's JASO MA2 after all.  My 1998 R1100R calls for 20-50.  Once either engine warms up the only thing that matters is the 40 or 50.  The reason I ask is that I bought the T4 instead of the Castrol by mistake today.  I used the Castrol for the 600 mile service, but now have 4600 miles on the R1250RS and thought I'd change the oil before heading out for a 2000 mile trip.

Link to comment
Paul De

I was a little afraid to open this thread again, as this topic got hashed around hard already about allowed additives based on the analysis of the recommended oil by BMW and their conflicting statements about what are allowable additives. Leaving them sleeping dogs, sleep.

 

For sure in what ever oil your choose, having the JASO MA2 rating is very important for your wet clutch. 

Link to comment
realshelby
42 minutes ago, Paul De said:

I was a little afraid to open this thread again, as this topic got hashed around hard already about allowed additives based on the analysis of the recommended oil by BMW and their conflicting statements about what are allowable additives. Leaving them sleeping dogs, sleep.

 

For sure in what ever oil your choose, having the JASO MA2 rating is very important for your wet clutch. 

I run a business based on modifying clutch baskets in Suzuki V Strom and SV 1000's ( mostly ). I have done over 1500 of them and talked with countless owners over the years. Most want to replace their clutch discs when upgrading to my modified clutch basket. Then I go into my spiel about why would they need that? I have a video on my WERKS Parts Youtube channel where I measured and inspected a set of clutch discs out of a DL 1000 with over 300,000 miles on them ( 438,000 miles now on the bike...). That bike was run on "energy conserving" rated oil for part of its life. What I am getting at is that I have NEVER run into a bike that had ANY problems with oil additives coating the friction discs. I won't say it didn't or cannot happen, but I know for a fact that many of these owners have run oil with energy conserving ratings and fairly high concentrations of stuff that is supposed to kill clutch discs. 

Many oils may indeed meet JASO ratings...but not have that label on the container. I do agree that having that certification is a very good thing. But again, I have NO proof of why that is. 

Oil viscosity is important. If the factory wants 5-40 oil then that is what I run. Not 15-40 or 20-50 and so on. If they give a temp range for different viscosity that is fine. But modern engines are so much better in tolerances that heavy oil may not protect bearings like lower viscosity would. Such as removing heat from bearings. 

Link to comment
Paddler

Since I only ride when it's warm I was thinking the Rotella T4 would be fine.  It's $13/gallon, whereas the T6 is almost double, I think.  Of course, both are way less than Castrol.

Link to comment
TSConver
3 minutes ago, Paddler said:

Since I only ride when it's warm I was thinking the Rotella T4 would be fine.  It's $13/gallon, whereas the T6 is almost double, I think.  Of course, both are way less than Castrol.

 

 

I get T6 on amazon for my cummins at $22 a gallon.

Link to comment
Paddler
6 minutes ago, TSConver said:

 

 

I get T6 on amazon for my cummins at $22 a gallon.

 

Yep, I think that's what it sells for at WalMart.  Half the price of the Castrol.

Link to comment
35 minutes ago, Paddler said:

Since I only ride when it's warm I was thinking the Rotella T4 would be fine.  It's $13/gallon, whereas the T6 is almost double, I think.  Of course, both are way less than Castrol.

Well, it is your motor and your decision.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Paddler

Reading on the Oilhead page somebody posted that 15W is good down to 32F, and here somebody said that the 15-40W or 5-40W actually holds up better than 20-50W.  Thinking I could just use the 15-40W for both bikes.  I like to keep things simple and to avoid wasting money on stuff like BMW oil.

Link to comment
realshelby
2 hours ago, Paddler said:

Reading on the Oilhead page somebody posted that 15W is good down to 32F, and here somebody said that the 15-40W or 5-40W actually holds up better than 20-50W.  Thinking I could just use the 15-40W for both bikes.  I like to keep things simple and to avoid wasting money on stuff like BMW oil.

As mentioned earlier, it is YOUR decision. There is a LOT more fiction than fact in most oil threads. This particular one was refreshing at first and much was learned from it. What works in an Oilhead might not be as good for a Wethead/Shifthead. VERY different engines.

As far as BMW goes, if the bike is still under warranty you should use oil that meets BMW specifications. Not BMW oil, but meeting BMW specs. Big difference in cost and availability. If you have a major internal engine failure under warranty and cannot show proof of correct oil used, or worse yet show that 20-50 oil was used, they have every legal right to deny the warranty claim if there is ANY chance oil is related to the failure. 

Link to comment
Paddler

No, I would not use 20-50 in my Shift Cam motor.  The R1100R is now 23 years old, so out of warranty.  I was talking about using the Rotella T4, which is 15W-40, in the old Oilhead.  I understand about oil threads, having read a few.  My question about the T4 rather than the T6 is since I'm a fair weather rider, and 15W is good down to 32F, why not use it?  I think the odds of having a major oil-related engine failure in my R1250RS because one used Rotella T4 is extremely remote.  As in, just about inconceivable.

Link to comment
dirtrider
15 minutes ago, Paddler said:

No, I would not use 20-50 in my Shift Cam motor.  The R1100R is now 23 years old, so out of warranty.  I was talking about using the Rotella T4, which is 15W-40, in the old Oilhead.  I understand about oil threads, having read a few.  My question about the T4 rather than the T6 is since I'm a fair weather rider, and 15W is good down to 32F, why not use it?  I think the odds of having a major oil-related engine failure in my R1250RS because one used Rotella T4 is extremely remote.  As in, just about inconceivable.

Evening Paddler

 

Why even ask the question, just do what you think is best as you don't seem to want to believe what you hear.

 

More to an engine failure than a major lock up, thick oil can give you cam lobe scuffing right after cold start up, then you have that internal alternator to think about as that thing is oil cooled so thicker oil won't cool that as good. Not a big deal to replace the  alternator as it all it takes is a quick engine removal. 

 

But you read on the internet (that can't be wrong) that the 15Wxx is good down to 32° & you THINK it will be OK, so as mentioned, it is your engine, your alternator, your warranty, your motorcycle so do what YOU think is best as you obviously don't want to listen to anything that disputes that. 

 

Good luck with your decision__  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Skywagon

I average under 10,000 miles a year as most people do.. not all but most. That results in an oil change about every 9-10 months for me. The recommended oils might cost an extra $20. For me personally not worthy of trying to figure out how to save $2/month. I know I overdue it but ever time I change oil I change final drive fluid and flush the brakes. I can do all of that in under 1 hour and I don’t worry about it. The only thing I’m not so good about doing is changing the antifreeze. If it’s still green and hydros good I don’t fool with it.  
 

my biggest issue is finding a place to recycle the fluids

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Dave_in_TX
On 4/8/2021 at 1:05 AM, Paddler said:

So, if the lower viscosity is only important at lower temperatures, why wouldn't Rotella T4 (15-40) be okay?  It's JASO MA2 after all.  My 1998 R1100R calls for 20-50.  Once either engine warms up the only thing that matters is the 40 or 50.  The reason I ask is that I bought the T4 instead of the Castrol by mistake today.  I used the Castrol for the 600 mile service, but now have 4600 miles on the R1250RS and thought I'd change the oil before heading out for a 2000 mile trip.

The 1200 wethead requires an oil that meets both API SL and JASO MA2. If the Rotella meets both, it should be OK to use. However, BMW specs 5W40 you may not want to use the 15W40 while under warranty. BTW, the American Petroleum Institute (API) requires that later oil ratings provide at least the same level of protection as earlier. Therefore, an API SM or SN should be OK in place of SL.

Link to comment
realshelby

Shell Rotella T-4 and T-6 no longer carry a API rating. Shell is not marketing to anything but the diesel market now. So, it well may meet the API rating needed. Or it may not. I would not be running it in a bike with warranty in force. 

 

I did run T-6 for a while when it did carry the exact rating BMW specified. 

Link to comment
dirtrider
31 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Shell Rotella T-4 and T-6 no longer carry a API rating. Shell is not marketing to anything but the diesel market now. So, it well may meet the API rating needed. Or it may not. I would not be running it in a bike with warranty in force. 

 

I did run T-6 for a while when it did carry the exact rating BMW specified. 

Morning Terry

 

This has been festering for a long time now, for non-performance automotive type usage for the most part  newer API rated oil's "are" backwards compatible. This is not always the case with special purpose vehicles, some high performance vehicles, or a lot of motorcycles.  

 

It is now a becoming a problem in the Diesel market as API  FA-4 is not backwards compatible to some on-road  a lot of off-road diesel applications.  

 

BMW motorcycle side even got involved back years ago when they published a service bulletin to not use API SJ oil in a motorcycle rated for API SG/SH oil due to limited Zink additives. 

 

This problem keeps getting more involved every year  as auto manufacturers & oil companies fight with trying to specify & commit to newer oil's that better protect the emission device side with oil's that can still be used reliably in older vehicles that still have non-roller flat lifter camshafts,  or other internals that require a higher anti-scuff slightly thicker base engine oil. 

 It's' now getting even worse since some newer direct-injection high compression, turbo-charged  engines are tearing up pistons & top rings due to oil mist causing a compression ignition prior to the actual spark.  

Link to comment
Paddler

I asked the question above to learn if any other owners have considered or actually run the T4, and if so, what was their experience.  The information about the acceptable temperature range for 15W is straight out of the BMW R1100GS manual.  My Haynes manual shows 15W-40 good down to less than 10F, but I'm not sure that's correct.   I'll be using Rotella T6 in the R1250RS.

 

Backward compatibility is a problem, too.  The SG/SH oils recommended for my 1998 R1100R are no longer made, it seems newer oils contain less ZDDP.  It's available as an additive.  Not sure what to do, though.  The recommended 20W-50 doesn't crank nearly as well as 15W-40 at lower temps.

Link to comment
dirtrider
21 hours ago, Paddler said:

I asked the question above to learn if any other owners have considered or actually run the T4, and if so, what was their experience.  The information about the acceptable temperature range for 15W is straight out of the BMW R1100GS manual.  My Haynes manual shows 15W-40 good down to less than 10F, but I'm not sure that's correct.   I'll be using Rotella T6 in the R1250RS.

 

Backward compatibility is a problem, too.  The SG/SH oils recommended for my 1998 R1100R are no longer made, it seems newer oils contain less ZDDP.  It's available as an additive.  Not sure what to do, though.  The recommended 20W-50 doesn't crank nearly as well as 15W-40 at lower temps.

Afternoon  Paddler

 

It's not so much that the SG/SH oil's are not available as there are a number of 15w50 or 20w50 oil's still being made that MEET the SG or SH requirements. The big issue is in finding the data on the newer produced oil's to see if they actually comply with the old SG or SH rating.

 

Both the API  SG & SH "oil rating" is obsolete so even IF a newer oil meets the SG or SH specification it can't be tested to therefore can't receive the obsolete SG or SH API rating. 

 

To find a real API SG or SH rated oil you will have to find an oil that was made, tested, & marketed  before the SG & SH rating became obsolete.

 

You also have to be careful when looking for a real SG or SH rated oil as some creative marketing  will say (meets or exceeds SG or SH)  somewhere in the label babble but that is based on the loose API backwards compatibly acceptability   (it will not have an actual API SG/SH rating where it belongs though).

 

It is getting somewhat difficult to find a 15w50 that has enough ZDDP, not so much due to the lower amount of ZDDP content but due to the oil manufacturers not making the content easily found in on-line data or on the actual container.

 

Still a lot of older 20w50 SG or SH oil around that has the SG or SH showing in the API rating area.   

 

Castrol GO 4-T 20w50 has a real API SG rating, it also has a JASO M-2 rating. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Paddler

The last time I changed the oil in my 1998 R1100R (75th Anniversary, btw) I used Castrol GTX, which carries the API SJ, SL, SM and SN ratings.  Do you think that is a problem?  Given BMW's service bulletin, it doesn't sound like a good idea.  Should I maybe add a ZDDP additive?  What's funny is that the bike has a catalytic converter, so maybe it took a while to recognize that zinc is a problem?  I should probably change the V belt and adjust the valves, as the bike now has 34K miles.  Would I be able to see any obvious wear while doing so?

Link to comment
dirtrider
44 minutes ago, Paddler said:

The last time I changed the oil in my 1998 R1100R (75th Anniversary, btw) I used Castrol GTX, which carries the API SJ, SL, SM and SN ratings.  Do you think that is a problem?  Given BMW's service bulletin, it doesn't sound like a good idea.  Should I maybe add a ZDDP additive?  What's funny is that the bike has a catalytic converter, so maybe it took a while to recognize that zinc is a problem?  I should probably change the V belt and adjust the valves, as the bike now has 34K miles.  Would I be able to see any obvious wear while doing so?

Afternoon Paddler

 

A lot of riders use that GTX oil, it's probably not the BMW desired & personally I wouldn't use it myself unless it was all that I could find & quickly needed oil  but those old BMW engines are pretty tolerant so you are not going to kill it using that oil.  Thing is we (I)  really don't know how much ZDP type additives are in the thicker GTX oil, oils like 15w40 or 20w50 or 15w50, as those oil viscosities are not typically used in modern emission era automobiles, so they really don't need to be as emission control friendly as the 0w20, 10w30, or similar. 

 

The old 1100 engines have 4 smaller valves so use lighter valve springs so that takes a lot of the scuff loading off the camshaft lobes.

 

The thing about ZDDP is that it is a last defense type thing.  The oil lubrication layer itself is the thing that keeps bearings cool & properly lubricated. The ZDDP comes into play when the oil layer breaks down. Like starting after long term storage, overheated engine in traffic, lugging the engine up a long hill in too high of gear, etc. 

 

All the engine internal  chains & sprockets also benefit from a higher ZDDP continent. It probably doesn't need to be as high as most old SG rated oils were but personally I sure would like it higher than a modern SN oil contains.   

 

Just light road riding on an old 1100 boxer probably can live without a high  ZDDP oil, the way I ride a GS off-road really taxes the oil & oiling system with quite a bit of engine abuse, engine heat (remember the oil is also used for engine cooling), lugging,  getting stuck in knee deep sand in 90°+ (just very abusive use), etc so a high ZDDP containing oil is just plain good insurance.       

Link to comment
realshelby

Since this has become a typical oil thread...

 

One thing overlooked by oil wizards posting about oil is the effect of different viscosity on cooling. Specifically plain bearings like are found in connecting rods and some main bearings. This applies to other components as well, but it is CRITICAL to a plain bearing. 

 

Oil doesn't just provide a film of oil to prevent contact between metal parts. Oil is all that there to COOL these components. As oil comes onto the bearings and then leaves the bearing surface by working its way to the edge and back into the sump it pulls heat from the bearing surface. In simple terms thick oil might provide a nice film of oil to support the bearing, yet if tolerances are not in place to work with that thick oil it can cause overheating of bearings. Simply does not run out quick enough. Thin oils that do provide enough oil film ( oil here is under pressure to enhance the ability to maintain a full coverage film of oil ) also "leak out" at a higher rate and pull a LOT of heat out as they go. I may be over simplifying what I write, but it is based on fact. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
dirtrider
38 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Since this has become a typical oil thread...

 

One thing overlooked by oil wizards posting about oil is the effect of different viscosity on cooling. Specifically plain bearings like are found in connecting rods and some main bearings. This applies to other components as well, but it is CRITICAL to a plain bearing. 

 

Oil doesn't just provide a film of oil to prevent contact between metal parts. Oil is all that there to COOL these components. As oil comes onto the bearings and then leaves the bearing surface by working its way to the edge and back into the sump it pulls heat from the bearing surface. In simple terms thick oil might provide a nice film of oil to support the bearing, yet if tolerances are not in place to work with that thick oil it can cause overheating of bearings. Simply does not run out quick enough. Thin oils that do provide enough oil film ( oil here is under pressure to enhance the ability to maintain a full coverage film of oil ) also "leak out" at a higher rate and pull a LOT of heat out as they go. I may be over simplifying what I write, but it is based on fact. 

 

 

Afternoon Terry 

 

Actually it was already mentioned by one of the oil wizards in an above posting (18 or 19 posts or so above).

 

But we do seem to have an oil thread within an oil thread as the BMW 1100 boxer was introduced into this ongoing  oil thread & those were designed by BMW from the get-go to operate correctly on XXw50 conventional motor oil & that stuff is pretty darn thick.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Paddler

Thanks, all.  I have found this thread very interesting, not the usual oil thread.  I was a long time subscriber to MCN and read the tech articles with interest.  I'm sure I could find them even today.  I found the link on page 3 very informative, never heard of a Stokes or a Poise, and really didn't know much about the refining processes, etc.  I understand a bit about the cranking cP thing, interesting that 15W is the same as 5W.  The pumping cP of 15W at -25C is the same as 5W at -35C.  Not sure how that translates into real world use.  The High Sheer rating reflects the oil film at operating temp, and 40W and 50W are the same.  Unclear on the Low Sheer thing, 50W is higher than 40W. 

 

I don't ride very hard, street only, enjoy the twisties but not a knee dragger.  Mostly tour, ~70MPH on straights.  Sometimes high ambient temperatures, avoid lugging, etc.  Just looking for a good oil for piece of mind.  Seems like an oil with more moly would be great for my oilhead, since it has a dry clutch.  Spoke with my local dealer a bit ago, they use Advantec 15W-50 in them, which is ~$15/L.  Paying for the roundel on parts and oils just rubs me wrong, I guess.  Maybe since the High Sheer rating is the same for 40W and 50W RotellaT4 would be a good choice?  Given the post above, it may provide a bit better cooling than 20W-50. 

 

Sorry to expand this thread beyond wethead oil, but I'm guessing many here have more than one bike. 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...