Experience experimenting with oil

[Cap]

11 minutes ago, 92Merc said:

So, I was watching some unrelated Youtube video's on engine oil.  Amazon Basics actually out performs many "big brand" oils.  Anyone want to send this off to Blackstone??

 

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B07CCHLLRL/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=amazon+basics+diesel+oil&qid=1573408971&sr=8-4

  I was tempted by that too,  but it is not JASO MA2.  So, Rotella T6 at the same price is a better fit. (and half the moly of Advantec).

[Pilot]

Had anybody got a Blackstone oil analysis on Castrol Power1 4T 5W-40 ?

[MikeB60]

Here us one. It's from my K1600 though. 

OilReports (2).pdf

[Dave_in_TX]

On 11/10/2019 at 12:20 PM, Cap said:

 So, I was watching some unrelated Youtube video's on engine oil.  Amazon Basics actually out performs many "big brand" oils.  Anyone want to send this off to Blackstone??

 

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B07CCHLLRL/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=amazon+basics+diesel+oil&qid=1573408971&sr=8-4

 

I was tempted by that too,  but it is not JASO MA2.  So, Rotella T6 at the same price is a better fit. (and half the moly of Advantec).

Since BMW requires an oil that meets both API SL and JASO MA2, the Rotella isn't any better of a fit than the Rotella.

[Rockosmith]

On 11/28/2019 at 8:00 AM, Pilot said:

Had anybody got a Blackstone oil analysis on Castrol Power1 4T 5W-40 ?

I sent a 5000 mile use sample from my ‘15 RT to Blackstone a week ago.  Will post the report when I get it.

[MichiganBob]

If this Castrol is the hot ticket, Advance Auto Parts sells it for 8.99 a quart which sounds like a good price point compared to the other brands in the mix.

[Cap]

3 hours ago, MichiganBob said:

If this Castrol is the hot ticket, Advance Auto Parts sells it for 8.99 a quart which sounds like a good price point compared to the other brands in the mix.

 

Most people I know buy it on Amazon for about $7 per quart on periodic sales.  In fact, I just bought some last week.

[MichiganBob]

So here's a dumb question that has probably been asked and answered so bear with me please. Other than for the warranty which my 2018 is under, how important is the JASO MA2 designation? Does it really matter than much in the long run if we use the Rotella,  Amazon Basics, Molylube, Mobile 1, etc. etc. Have these Blackstone reports found that any of the oils are a significant risk to our beloved boxer engine. Excuse my naivete but I'm just wondering. Are they not all quality synthetic oils? Not that I don't enjoy a rousing debate but ....... ??

[Paul De]

I would be careful as JASO MA involves suitability for use in single oil bath engines designed to lubricate, limit clutch slippage and gear pitting.  The updated MA2 involves the oil's the same suitability with M/Cs with a single oil bath and adds compatibility catalytic converters.  Likely the important factor is the types and amounts of additives used and somewhat less the base oil stock.  So, yes most oils today are "quality oils" but may not be suitable for you application.   

 

Haha I like a quality single press olive oil on my salad, but when I have done fried turkey for Thanksgiving, it's peanut oil. In both cases they are quality oils but just have different purposes.   Monounsaturated VS high temp stability.

[MichiganBob]

Interesting Paul De. So the MA2 is a relatively new specification for the boxer added because the new Engine's have a wet clutch? The catalytic converter has been in operation for quite some time.

 

MB

[PadG]

9 hours ago, MichiganBob said:

So here's a dumb question that has probably been asked and answered so bear with me please. Other than for the warranty which my 2018 is under, how important is the JASO MA2 designation? Does it really matter than much in the long run if we use the Rotella,  Amazon Basics, Molylube, Mobile 1, etc. etc. Have these Blackstone reports found that any of the oils are a significant risk to our beloved boxer engine. Excuse my naivete but I'm just wondering. Are they not all quality synthetic oils? Not that I don't enjoy a rousing debate but ....... ??

Not only does the wethead boxers have wet clutch, but the clutch (and the transmission) shares the same oil as the engine!  Not necessary so with other bikes.

 

Oil meeting JASO MA2 is very important!  If you look at the details of the JASO specification, you will note that the "MA" ratings differentiate the frictional property of the different rating.  We need MA2, and MA only rating may not be good enough for our wet clutch.  There is an over-lap in the specific coefficient of friction numbers between the MA and MA2, but it is a lot safer to stick with the MA2 rated oil.

[Paul De]

Hi MichiganBob,

 

Yes, the single bath design puts an amazing range of demands on the oil.  I guess it makes sense that the JASO-Mxx specification originated in Japan where the single bath design is king across all manufacturers.   I did like the separate oil bath for the engine and transmission of the older boxers as I always wondered if a single oil could provide longevity and be all things to all those engine components, but I'm an old farht.  The UJM design has been around since the 1960s (at least) and there is plenty of history of long lived drive trains with a single oil bath.  I will say that before the rise of full synthetic oils I had changed my oil at 50-60% of the recommended mileage in a single bath motor as I was always concerned the shear from the transmission gears would break down the base stock oil long before you would see a significant color change in the oil due to thermal breakdown and combustion residue.  

 

Interestingly the question of oil breakdown is only indirectly answered in a Blackstone report by looking for engine wear through traces of elements and compounds associated with various engine parts and the exhaustion of oil additive levels.  One could directly measure the molecular breakdown of the base stock oil with GPC (gel permeation chromatography) analysis to see if my premature shear breakdown hypothesis makes any sense, but at about $1k per test, it will remain a hypothesis.

[MichiganBob]

I was looking at an application where you enter a specification and it gives you a list of oils that meet the spec. It listed the ones below for JASO MA2. Not many with a 5W-40 and it seems incomplete based on some of the oils mentioned in this thread.

 

AGIP eni i-Ride moto 20W50

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 10W40

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 10W60

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 5W40

AGIP eni i-Ride scooter 15W50

CASTROL ACT>EVO 4T 20W40

CASTROL ACT>EVO 4T 20W50

CASTROL POWER 1 4T 10W40

CASTROL POWER 1 4T 15W50

CASTROL POWER 1 4T 20W50

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W30

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W40

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W50

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 5W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE COMP 4 10W30

FUCHS SILKOLENE COMP 4 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE COMP 4 15W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE COMP 4 20W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE COMP 4 SX 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 15W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 PLUS 10W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 PLUS 10W60

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 PLUS 5W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE PRO 4 SX 15W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE QUAD ATV 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE QUAD ATV 5W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE SCOOT 4 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE SCOOT SPORT 4 5W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE SUPER 4 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE SUPER 4 20W50

FUCHS SILKOLENE SUPER 4 SX 10W40

FUCHS SILKOLENE V-TWIN 20W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING 4T 10W40

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W60

Q8 MOTO GT 10W40

Q8 MOTO SBK 10W40

Q8 MOTO SBK RACING 10W50

SHELL ADVANCE 4T AX10 15W50

SHELL ADVANCE 4T AX8 10W40

SHELL ADVANCE 4T ULTRA 10W40

SHELL ADVANCE 4T ULTRA 15W50

TOTAL® ELF ATV 4 POWER 10W50

TOTAL® ELF MOTO 4 DX RATIO 20W50

TOTAL® ELF MOTO 4 HP ECO 10W40

TOTAL® ELF MOTO 4 HP ECO 15W50

TOTAL® ELF MOTO 4 XT TECH 10W50

[MichiganBob]

Here is the API SL list

 

AGIP eni i-Base 15W40

AGIP eni i-Ride moto 20W50

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 10W40

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 10W60

AGIP eni i-Ride PG 5W40

AGIP eni i-Ride scooter 15W50

AGIP eni i-Sint tech F 5W30

AGIP eni i-Sint tech G 5W30

AGIP SIGMA SUPER TFE 10W40

AGIP SIGMA TRUCK 15W40

AGIP UNIVERSAL MULTIFLEET 15W40

ARAL BlueTronic 10W40

ARAL ExtraTurboral 10W40

ARAL HighTronic F 5W30

ARAL HighTronic M 5W40

ARAL SuperTronic E 0W30

ARAL SuperTronic G 0W30

CASTROL EDGE Professional A1 5W20

CASTROL EDGE Professional A3 0W30

CASTROL EDGE Professional A5 0W30

CASTROL GTX Professional A3 10W40

CASTROL GTX Professional A3 15W40

CASTROL Magnatec Professional A3 5W30

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W30

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W40

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W50

CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 5W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS HAVOLINE DIESEL EXTRA 10W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS HAVOLINE ENERGY 5W30

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS HAVOLINE EXTRA 10W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS HAVOLINE PREMIUM 15W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS HAVOLINE PREMIUM 20W50

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS MOTEX 4T-X 10W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS URSA SUPER TD 10W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS URSA SUPER TD 15W40

CHEVRON LUBRICANTS URSA SUPER TDS 10W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL 1 FUEL ECONOMY 0W30

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL DELVAC 1 5W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL DELVAC MX 15W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL DELVAC MX EXTRA 10W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL SUPER 2000 FORMULA P 10W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL SUPER 2000 X1 10W40

EXXONMOBIL MOBIL SUPER 3000 FORMULA P 5W30

FUCHS TITAN GT1 0W20

FUCHS TITAN SUPERSYN 0W30

FUCHS TITAN SUPERSYN 10W60

FUCHS TITAN SUPERSYN 5W30

FUCHS TITAN SUPERSYN 5W50

FUCHS TITAN SYN MC 10W40

FUCHS TITAN SYN PRO GAS 10W40

FUCHS TITAN TRUCK PLUS 15W40

FUCHS TITAN UNIVERSAL HD 15W40

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF SPECIAL 5W30

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF SPECIAL LL 5W30

LIQUI MOLY LKW-LEICHTLAUF-MOTORÖL 10W40

LIQUI MOLY MARINE MOTOROIL 4T 10W40

LIQUI MOLY MARINE MOTOROIL 4T 15W40

LIQUI MOLY MOS2-LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY PROFI LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY PROFI TOURING 15W40

LIQUI MOLY RACING 4T 10W40

LIQUI MOLY RACING 4T 20W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W60

LIQUI MOLY SUPER-LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY SYNTHOIL RACE TECH GT1 10W60

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH 15W40

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH 20W50

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH SHPD 15W40

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH SUPER SHPD 15W40

OMV BIXXOL ECONOMIC 15W40

OMV BIXXOL EXTRA 10W40

OMV BIXXOL SPECIAL SR 10W60

OMV BIXXOL SPECIAL V6 0W30

OMV ECO TRUCK EXTRA 10W40

OMV TRUCK LD 15W40

OMV TRUCK LD 20W50

OMV TRUCK M PLUS 15W40

PETRONAS SELENIA MULTIPOWER 5W30

PETRONAS SYNTIUM FR 5W30

PETRONAS SYNTIUM RACER X1 10W60

Q8 FORMULA ADVANCED 10W40

Q8 MOTO GT 10W40

Q8 MOTO SBK 10W40

Q8 MOTO SBK RACING 10W50

Q8 SCOOTER CLASS 10W40

Q8 T 750 15W40

Q8 T 750 40

Q8 T 800 10W40

ROWE HIGHTEC FORMULA GT 1040 HC 10W40

ROWE HIGHTEC SUPER LEICHTLAUF HC-O 10W40

ROWE HIGHTEC SYNT RS HC-D 5W30

ROWE HIGHTEC SYNT RS HC-FO 5W30

ROWE HIGHTEC SYNT RS HC-GM 5W30

ROWE HIGHTEC SYNTH RS SAE 10W60

ROWE HIGHTEC TRUCKSTAR SAE 15W40

ROWE HIGHTEC TURBO HD SAE 15W40

ROWE HIGHTEC TURBO HD SAE PLUS 15W40

SHELL ADVANCE 4T AX7 10W40

SHELL ADVANCE 4T AX9 15W50

SHELL HELIX HX5 15W40

SHELL HELIX HX6 10W40

SHELL HELIX ULTRA 5W30

SHELL HELIX ULTRA AS 0W30

SHELL HELIX ULTRA E 5W30

TOTAL® MOTO 4 PRO TECH 5W40

TOTAL® QUARTZ 7000 10W40

TOTAL® QUARTZ 7000 ENERGY 10W40

TOTAL® QUARTZ 9000 ENERGY 0W30

TOTAL® QUARTZ 9000 ENERGY 5W30

TOTAL® QUARTZ 9000 FUTURE 5W30

TOTAL® RUBIA POLYTRAFIC 10W40

TOTAL® RUBIA TIR 7400 15W40

TOTAL® RUBIA WORKS 1000 15W40

VALVOLINE DURABLEND 10W40

VALVOLINE DURABLEND MXL 5W40

VALVOLINE MAXLIFE 10W40

VALVOLINE PREMIUM BLUE 15W40

VALVOLINE SYNPOWER FE 0W30

VALVOLINE SYNPOWER MXL 0W30

VALVOLINE SYNPOWER MXL 5W30

VALVOLINE TURBO 10W40

VALVOLINE TURBO 15W40

VALVOLINE TURBO 15W50

VALVOLINE TURBO 20W50

VALVOLINE VR-I RACING 10W60

VALVOLINE VR-I RACING 20W50

VALVOLINE VR-I RACING 5W50

[Paul De]

One interesting oil in that list is the Shell Advance oils.  From all the literature I could dig up on the google machine is the BMW Advantec Ultimate 5W-40 (made by Shell) is at least a relabel of Shell Advance oil and at most a special one off version of that oil with particular tweaks to the additive package.  In any case I would not be surprised at all that the Shell Advance and Advantec Ultimate share the same base stock oil and viscosity modifiers.

[Cap]

1 hour ago, MichiganBob said:

I was looking at an application where you enter a specification and it gives you a list of oils that meet the spec. It listed the ones below for JASO MA2....

 

Rotella T6 is JASO MA2, and comes in 5w-40.  However it is has an API rating of CK4 which is a diesel specification.  The previous formulation of Rotella T6 (CJ4) also had a gasoline spec of API SL.  Personally, I have no qualms about using Rotella T6 in my RT.  It has half the moly of Advantec.  But I prefer Castrol 4T because my bike shifts better in gears 1-2-3 using Castrol.  

[92Merc]

1 hour ago, MichiganBob said:

Here is the API SL list

...

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF SPECIAL 5W30

LIQUI MOLY LEICHTLAUF SPECIAL LL 5W30

LIQUI MOLY LKW-LEICHTLAUF-MOTORÖL 10W40

LIQUI MOLY MARINE MOTOROIL 4T 10W40

LIQUI MOLY MARINE MOTOROIL 4T 15W40

LIQUI MOLY MOS2-LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY PROFI LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY PROFI TOURING 15W40

LIQUI MOLY RACING 4T 10W40

LIQUI MOLY RACING 4T 20W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W50

LIQUI MOLY RACING SYNTH 4T 10W60

LIQUI MOLY SUPER-LEICHTLAUF 10W40

LIQUI MOLY SYNTHOIL RACE TECH GT1 10W60

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH 15W40

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH 20W50

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH SHPD 15W40

LIQUI MOLY TOURING HIGH TECH SUPER SHPD 15W40

...

FYI, the Liquid Moly BeemerBoneyard sells is API SM rated, which is why you don't see a 5-40w on the above list.

[Rockosmith]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:12 AM, Rockosmith said:

I sent a 5000 mile use sample from my ‘15 RT to Blackstone a week ago.  Will post the report when I get it.

 

Ok, so here is the Blackstone report on my RT with 85000 miles.  It shows 3 other oil reports on the same bike.  The sample at 15091 miles was Spectro Platinum, 28956 was Motul 7100, and the last 2 are Castrol Power 1 purchased through from Amazon for about $7.00/qt. FWIW

 

[realshelby]

23 hours ago, Paul De said:

 

 

Interestingly the question of oil breakdown is only indirectly answered in a Blackstone report by looking for engine wear through traces of elements and compounds associated with various engine parts and the exhaustion of oil additive levels.  One could directly measure the molecular breakdown of the base stock oil with GPC (gel permeation chromatography) analysis to see if my premature shear breakdown hypothesis makes any sense, but at about $1k per test, it will remain a hypothesis.

Actually the viscosity test on the Blackstone report does indicate the breakdown you mention. Maybe not to the degree a $1000 test would, but good enough. In all the Blackstone reports on Wetheads with decent miles the viscosity will show a little below what the values should be for that oil. That is oil shearing. Blackstone says it is harmless. I wouldn't be surprised if BMW calculates this when they spec a 5-40 oil instead of a 5-30 oil. That difference would make up for the inevitable shearing from the transmission. 

Rockosmiths Blackstone report was very interesting. That oil shows really good wear numbers. Better than the Liqui-Moly in most cases. BUT...It does look like the Castrol has more shearing than the Liqui-Moly. Yet the wear numbers are very good so again the viscosity breakdown or shearing isn't a factor in increased wear. I have grown to trust the Liqui-Moly, but would not hesitate to use this Castrol. Seems the Liqui-Moly is the only or one of few that have basically no Moly in the formula!

[Paul De]

For sure measuring bulk viscosity change is a good indicator of oil molecular weight breakdown.  While GPC might get you more detail on if it is the base oil stock or polymeric viscosity modifiers that are breaking down  your point is well taken that this type of analysis is loosing the forest for the trees in regards to the oils primary role in lubrication. But rolling all the way back to this thread's title, I can't help but think that a more detailed analysis of an oils molecular weight (Mw, Mn, Mz, ect) might bear fruit predicting an oils shifting feel/performance.  For sure the oils molecular weight profile changes over the useful life and IMO is why when you change your oil you can notice that things like the shifting characteristic and mechanical noise are improved.

 

 

[MichiganBob]

Is there is consensus (if there is such a thing when it comes to oil and tires) about moly in the oil. It's okay, not big deal, better without??

 

Thanks.

 

MB

[Pilot]

13 minutes ago, MichiganBob said:

Is there is consensus (if there is such a thing when it comes to oil and tires) about moly in the oil. It's okay, not big deal, better without??

 

Thanks.

 

MB

In view of the posted Blackstone oil analysis, it seems the BMW  Advantec oil has a very high level of Moly compared to other oils discussed.  So, either BMW has been fibbing to us to not use oil with Moly or they do not monitor what their own supplier is adding to Advantec.  In either case, it is s not too flattering for BMW.

[MichiganBob]

Has anyone made a query with BMW re: their Advantec does not meet their stated specifications?

 

MB

[MichiganBob]

I just saw the response from BMW which states "BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components."

 

Hmmmm.

 

MB

[Paul De]

hi MB,

 

If I can be so bold to speak for all who have participated in the thread a group summary consensus is that technically BMW's oil does not meet the letter of their specification. As of 2019 BMW owners manual specifies BMW Advatec Ultimate 5W-40 API SL JASO-MA2, but the side of the Advantec bottle say it is API SN JASO MA-2,  the only significance here is that going from API SL to SM and SN the amount of ZDDP is reduced and molybdenum is increased in a move to reduce catalytic converter catalyst poising. Inquiring minds dug into this.

 

It seems impossible to get a written oil spec for Advatec Ulitmate from BMW or Shell, but a member here had a Blackstone test done on a fresh sample of Advantec Ultimate and verified a significant loading level of molybdenum.  This was not too much of a surprise as virtually all modern synthetic oils contain molybdenum.  Further, you can find in this thread a tech service response from Liquimoly that essentially calls BS on BMW for their no molybdenum statements as when they asked BMW they can't/won't point to the specific coating that will be damaged in their engine and Liquimoly has long term BMW test engine data showing no internal issues with their oil which does contain molybdenum.

 

Where the discussion sits now is that if you are under BMW's warranty bite the bullet and stick with their specified Advantec Ultimate to not give them an easy out of a warranty claim. After the OEM warranty expires you are likely fine with most any synthetic oils that fits the API SL, SM or SN, JASO MA2 specification.  Speaking for myself here, I would not stray too far from the 5W-40 viscosity range either.

 

There are lots of good discussion and data details about some of the popular oil options so it would be worth your time to ready through the whole thread.

 

[MichiganBob]

Thank you for the excellent summary Paul De. Anyone know a BMW dealer that discounts their Advatec?

 

MB

[Bernie]

There are several Dealers that run Oil change specials, including filter.

[Pilot]

I just purchased a  2016 R1200GS with 52K miles.  According to the BMW maintenance records, the motorcycle has only had Advantec oil; note in the oil analysis just done how it has lower levels of magnesium, phosphorus and zinc--the anti-wear and detergent additives--compared to the listed universal averages for that engine model. Also note that in the BMW manual, it cautions against using Molybdenum , yet Advantec in this sample has almost twice the level of Moly that the universal averages for that model engine.  So either BMW was fibbing by that entry in the owners manual or BMW is not watching carefully how its Advantec branded oil is being produced.  

 

On the oil change I just did, I utilized Castrol 5W40 with the BMW recommended API SL / JASO2 ratings; we will see how that does on the next oil analysis.  The Advantec oil seems to be a less than average quality oil for about twice the price of other appropriately rated oils.  

R1200GS-OIL-ANALYSIS-9DEC19-REDACTEDF.pdf

[Skywagon]

Pilot...been using this since the first oil change (put in by my dealer - first oil change was free) on my wethead...now 25k.  I used it on my oil head for about 50k...Amazon usually has a pretty good price.  It is what is recommended in my 2014 RT owners manual.  I don't know the Moly content and don't really care.  I think the same you said about BMW...either wrong about Moly or no clue they are advertising and selling branded oil that would violate their own warranty policy.  Some of the early wetheads are getting up there in mileage.  I've not heard of any engine issues oil related.

 

The last time I bought this oil on Amazon it was $46 delivered for 6Quarts.  Today it shows $50.  It varies from time to time but still half price of advantec.

 

•  

Roll over image to zoom in

 

 

 

Castrol 06113 Power1 4T 5W-40 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil, 1 Quart Bottle, 6 Pack

[MichiganBob]

Back by popular demand ... oil chatter.

 

I was at the IMS in Chicago and was talking to the guy at the Liqui Moly booth. He was hard selling the use of Motorbike MoS2 Shooter, Motorbike Engine Flush Shooter, or Motorbike 4T Shooter. Anyone use these and what has been your experience.? Any noticeable difference? My current ride is a 2018 1200RT with only 3,000 miles on it. Does not make sense to use additives. Your input is always valued.

 

Michiganbob 

[AndyS]

There is NO need for additives.

None.

 

In fact the MoS2 is especially one to avoid. That is the item that BMW keeps banging on about being the bad boy additive in oils.

[Dave_in_TX]

2 hours ago, AndyS said:

There is NO need for additives.

None.

 

In fact the MoS2 is especially one to avoid. That is the item that BMW keeps banging on about being the bad boy additive in oils.

No, BMW does not specifically say to avoid MSo2, they just say to avoid additives containing moly. They may mean MSo2 but that's not what they say. All motor oils contain additives, @AndyS, are you referring to the use of over-the-counter additives when you say they are not needed?

[realshelby]

51 minutes ago, Dave_in_TX said:

No, BMW does not specifically say to avoid MSo2, they just say to avoid additives containing moly. They may mean MSo2 but that's not what they say. 

Actually BMW does say to avoid Molybdenum. Whether as an additive put in the oil when produced or put in the oil by a consumer as an additional additive, molybdenum is claimed by BMW to do bad things to coatings inside their engines. 

[PadG]

1 hour ago, Dave_in_TX said:

No, BMW does not specifically say to avoid MSo2, they just say to avoid additives containing moly. They may mean MSo2 but that's not what they say. All motor oils contain additives, @AndyS, are you referring to the use of over-the-counter additives when you say they are not needed?

The only molybdenum additive that I know of is that di-sulfide!  I had used it in the distant past, as additive in the gear box oil.  Why do you think you need it?  It's quite clear to me that when BMW indicates (in the manual) to NOT use moly additive in the oil, they do mean the molybdenum di-sulfide that Andy mentioned.  You think it means something else?  Then what????

[AndyS]

An open question. 

How many BMW motorcycles has anyone know wear out due to oil failure (I am not talking about abuse through letting the oil run so low you get a lack of circulation) and I am not talking about circumstances where the oil is never changed.

I think you will find the answer is very very low. 

So to anyone thinking of using snake oil additives, you are wasting your time, money, and world resources.

[Cap]

2 hours ago, PadG said:

The only molybdenum additive that I know of is that di-sulfide!  ...

 

I think this is where there is some confusion.  There are other forms of Molybdenum that have been used as additives in oil for the last 50-60 years.  The early forms of moly were not soluble, and would adhere to metal and reduce the coefficient of friction.  One problem with non-soluble moly additives is that they tended to build up and then flake off.  Another problem is that they were suspected of attacking copper, which can be used in bearings.  I think this theory of copper-attack might be the origin of BMW's advice to avoid moly additives because they can (might?) adversely affect some of the coatings used in their engines.

 

But, those non-soluble forms of moly are not the same as MSo2.  There are no known issues of MSo2 adversely interacting with other metals.  And there is substantial support that MSo2 used in lubricating oil has benefits.

 

Nevertheless, we have the notice in our BMW owner's manual (page 173 of my R1200RT) that says, "Additives (for instance molybdenum-based substances) are prohibited because they would attack the coatings on engine components..."

 

In my opinion, the only reasonable interpretation of this statement in the owner's manual is that we should avoid using non-soluble forms of moly additives.  Personally, I have decided to use oil in the specified weight (5W-40) and the specified rating (API SL or better) and JASO MA2.  There are many brands of oil in this category, having a wide range of costs.  Almost all have soluble MSo2 in them, including the brand recommended by BMW, Advantec.  I have tried several brands, and find that there are differences in the way that they affect gear shifting feel.  I actually found that my favorite shift-feel came while using a brand called Ravenol that I bought on Amazon -- it was on the lower end of the cost scale.  Right now, I am using Castrol 4T, which is relatively cheap, and shifts well, but makes it hard for me to find neutral.  YMMV

 

Hope this helps, Cap

[Dave_in_TX]

22 hours ago, realshelby said:

Actually BMW does say to avoid Molybdenum. Whether as an additive put in the oil when produced or put in the oil by a consumer as an additional additive, molybdenum is claimed by BMW to do bad things to coatings inside their engines. 

Yes, that's what I said: "No, BMW does not specifically say to avoid MSo2, they just say to avoid additives containing moly"; moly meaning Molybdenum. There are other molybdenenum additives besides MSO2.

[dirtrider]

On 2/17/2020 at 9:46 PM, MichiganBob said:

Back by popular demand ... oil chatter.

 

I was at the IMS in Chicago and was talking to the guy at the Liqui Moly booth. He was hard selling the use of Motorbike MoS2 Shooter, Motorbike Engine Flush Shooter, or Motorbike 4T Shooter. Anyone use these and what has been your experience.? Any noticeable difference? My current ride is a 2018 1200RT with only 3,000 miles on it. Does not make sense to use additives. Your input is always valued.

 

Michiganbob 

 

Morning Bob

 

If you need to use additional oil additives in your engine oil then you need to find a new motor oil. 

 

The one thing to keep in mind is your wet clutch, if you start adding in oil additives those could effect, or change, your oil's JASO MA2 rating.

 

Just keep in mind that guy that you talked with in the Liqui Moly booth (or most of those motorcycle show booths)  were paid to be there as they can more than likely sell ice cubes to Eskimos with a straight face & look of confidence.   

[PadG]

21 hours ago, Cap said:

 

. . . .

 

But, those non-soluble forms of moly are not the same as MSo2.  There are no known issues of MSo2 adversely interacting with other metals.  And there is substantial support that MSo2 used in lubricating oil has benefits.

 

Nevertheless, we have the notice in our BMW owner's manual (page 173 of my R1200RT) that says, "Additives (for instance molybdenum-based substances) are prohibited because they would attack the coatings on engine components..."

 

In my opinion, the only reasonable interpretation of this statement in the owner's manual is that we should avoid using non-soluble forms of moly additives.  Personally, I have decided to use oil in the specified weight (5W-40) and the specified rating (API SL or better) and JASO MA2.  There are many brands of oil in this category, having a wide range of costs.  Almost all have soluble MSo2 in them, including the brand recommended by BMW, Advantec.  I have tried several brands, and find that there are differences in the way that they affect gear shifting feel.  I actually found that my favorite shift-feel came while using a brand called Ravenol that I bought on Amazon -- it was on the lower end of the cost scale.  Right now, I am using Castrol 4T, which is relatively cheap, and shifts well, but makes it hard for me to find neutral.  YMMV

 

Hope this helps, Cap

I am afraid that it's you who are a little mixed up (no insults intended!!!!)  The correct chemical symbol for what I highlighted in your statement is: MoS2, which IS molybdenum di-sulfide! 

 

I think that I have figured out why BMW put that caution about not adding moly additive to the engine oil! 

 

It goes back to the fact that the engine oil is used in common with the engine, transmission, and clutch.  That is why I had always taken the JASO MA2 part of BMW's specification of the oil as being the most important part.  Why?  Look up the details of the JASO specification, and you will see that the "M" rating has to do with allowable limits on the coefficient of friction of the oil, among several other things.  Going from memory, I think that there are 3 "M" ratings: MB, MA, and MA2.  The MA2 has the tightest range of coefficient of friction spec, while the MA is a little looser, and I don't recall what it is with the MB.  Our clutch is designed for the MA2 rating, and any oil with frictional property outside of that range can make the clutch slips under load.  We all know that is BAD!

 

Now, if you have an oil rated for JASO MA2, and you went and add a "friction modifier" like MoS2 to the oil, what do you think will happen?  MoS2 is very effective, but mainly with metal, because it bonds directly to the surface of the metal.  I also will wager that the friction material on our clutch is sintered metal, as often used for brakes.

 

BTW, the MoS2 that I had used in the '60s was called MolySlip, and it was in liquid form!

[PadG]

3 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Yes, that's what I said: "No, BMW does not specifically say to avoid MSo2, they just say to avoid additives containing moly"; moly meaning Molybdenum. There are other molybdenenum additives besides MSO2.

Please name one!  Just for my education.

[Dave_in_TX]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 7:35 AM, PadG said:

The only molybdenum additive that I know of is that di-sulfide!  I had used it in the distant past, as additive in the gear box oil.  Why do you think you need it?  It's quite clear to me that when BMW indicates (in the manual) to NOT use moly additive in the oil, they do mean the molybdenum di-sulfide that Andy mentioned.  You think it means something else?  Then what????

"It's quite clear to me that when BMW indicates (in the manual) to NOT use moly additive in the oil, they do mean the molybdenum di-sulfide that Andy mentioned" That's actually what I think it means but that's not what they are saying. Since BMW recommends their own oil which contains moly (but probably not MSO2), it's certainly not clear and some are interpreting it no mean no form of moly even if it's part of the oil manufacturers additive package.

3 hours ago, PadG said:

Please name one!  Just for my education.

molybdenum dialkyldithiocarbamate for example. See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167892299800947

 

You might want to google "soluble molybdenum additives". And BTW, MSO2 additives contain finely powdered MSO2 in a light carrier oil, it doesn't actually disolve. 

[PatM]

Just curious, for those of you that have had their motor oil tested, what compound of molybdenum did the lab find? Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) or Molybdenum Diakyldithiocarbamate( MoDTC) or any other moly compound?

[Cap]

8 minutes ago, PatM said:

Just curious, for those of you that have had their motor oil tested, what compound of molybdenum did the lab find? Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) or Molybdenum Diakyldithiocarbamate( MoDTC) or any other moly compound?

 

You can see several oil analyses in this thread, including one earlier on this page.  Just scroll up.  The analysis says only "Molybdenum" and shows the ppm.

[LAF]

I use this every FD change.

 

I would NEVER use it in a motor.  But I have used it in all FD on the LT, RT, and the GS.

 

Molykote

[PadG]

19 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

"It's quite clear to me that when BMW indicates (in the manual) to NOT use moly additive in the oil, they do mean the molybdenum di-sulfide that Andy mentioned" That's actually what I think it means but that's not what they are saying. Since BMW recommends their own oil which contains moly (but probably not MSO2), it's certainly not clear and some are interpreting it no mean no form of moly even if it's part of the oil manufacturers additive package.

molybdenum dialkyldithiocarbamate for example. See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167892299800947

 

You might want to google "soluble molybdenum additives". And BTW, MSO2 additives contain finely powdered MSO2 in a light carrier oil, it doesn't actually disolve. 

Very interesting!  I did learn something new!!! 

 

Now, please note that, chemically speaking, there is no such thing as MSO2!  Why?  Go and look at the Periodic Table of Elements, and you will find that there is NO element using the symbol "M"!  While you are looking, you should note that the symbol for molybdenum is "Mo".  Note the lower-case "O".  So, if you are referring to a molybdenum compound, then you will start with "Mo".  You will note also that the "S" represents the element sulfur.  So, using the letters and number combination that you used, you will end up with either Mo2S or MoS2.  Mo2S don't balance out, in term of chemical valency, and so can't exist, while MoS2 balances out, and it tells you that the compound consists of an atom of molybdenum bonded to 2 atoms of sulfur - molybdenum di-sulfide!

[PadG]

16 hours ago, PatM said:

Just curious, for those of you that have had their motor oil tested, what compound of molybdenum did the lab find? Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) or Molybdenum Diakyldithiocarbamate( MoDTC) or any other moly compound?

I think that it is irrelevant, IF that oil passes the JASO MA2 tests for the frictional requirement.  Putting moly additive on top of that is the real issue, since that will most likely take the resulting oil out of the MA2 spec.

[Bernie]

So you guys like to add stuff to your oil to increase the performance? Or just to extend the time you should change your oil? Or you are just better scientists then the factory engineers? 
I am confused as always. 

[AZgman]

I prefer a group IV Ester based synthetic such as Ravenol 5w-40. I have also used Castrol Power 1 (not group IV) when on sale from Amazon. Both meet BMW specifications and are motorcycle specific oils with significant engineering and R&D development. I don't think it is worth the monetary savings to go with anything less. YMMV so ride on!

[Skywagon]

I've used BMW recommended oil and fluids on the 3 BMW bikes I've owned.  I've changed all the fluids as per recommendation or earlier on all the bikes. 

 

On my 1979 R100RT I put 60,000 miles on it with no failures of engine, brakes, or final drive.  I had one push rod tube leak but most of that vintage did.

On my 2005 R1150RT I put about 50,000 miles on it with zero failures except those stupid quick release plastic gas parts.  No issues with whizzy brakes or final drive as fluid changed every year.  

My current 2014 R1200RT has about 25000 miles on it with zero failure.

 

I've never put in additives or strayed from BMW branded or Castrol recommended fluid.  Brake fluid has always been Prestone Type 4.  The BMW branded cost more so the switch to their recommended Castrol has served me well.

 

[PatM]

20 hours ago, Cap said:

 

You can see several oil analyses in this thread, including one earlier on this page.  Just scroll up.  The analysis says only "Molybdenum" and shows the ppm.

I'm sorry but that doesn't answer my question. I see Molybdenum on the test sheet but not what specific molecule or compound they're talking about. There are 35 different isotopes of molybdenum and at least two different molybdenum compounds out of at least 8 different compounds are used in engine oil. Which is it?