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Experience experimenting with oil

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LAF

Thank you Terry for the "black and white" of oil discussions.

 

I tested before on bikes and cars and it has been a while.

 

I have used LM in the RT and GS exclusively.

 

The test gives me good reason to go out to 7 or 8K on my oil.  Now I know your UOA is not relevant to my bike but it does confirm my thoughts that any high end oil should go 8-10k with no issues.  Heck you could go 5k change the filter and go 5K more and I believe in my heart the bike would not care one bit.

 

What a UOA does it tells you if your bike may have issues.  If you have high amounts of coolant, or gas, or silicates from poor air filtration or copper so it will tell you if a bearing or some other metal component is wearing faster then it should.

 

Thank you for sharing and I will get mine done this time out to get a reference. 

 

I have used LM and been happy with the shifting of the bike so really that is the only thing I can tell from a oil in BMW bikes.  It just likes some oils better then others. 

 

My 15 RT was notorious for it.  My 17.5 GS I have no idea as other then factory fill it has had LM in it from 600 miles on.  Also as a side note I use LM in my FD also. 

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Paul De

Agree with your understanding of over the counter additives being unapproved generally and specifically those that contain molybdenum.  However, by starting the very next sentence with the word additionally, it expands BMW's position to not allow any molybdenum substances no mater where it would be introduced.  Are we to simply ignore that second sentence?

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Dave_in_TX
4 hours ago, Paul De said:

Agree with your understanding of over the counter additives being unapproved generally and specifically those that contain molybdenum.  However, by starting the very next sentence with the word additionally, it expands BMW's position to not allow any molybdenum substances no mater where it would be introduced.  Are we to simply ignore that second sentence?

If you're going to interpret the first sentence as referring to over the counter additives rather than taking it completely on "face value", why are you so quick to assume that the second sentence is referring to an oil's additive pack? Is BMW using some exotic metal that no other motorcycle manufacturer is using? The oil manufacturers have to take into consider the metals commonly used in engines their oil is intended to be used in. I'd be willing to bet that the BMW oil actually has some form of soluble moly in it but without an oil analysis, we can't know.

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Dave_in_TX

Found this at https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4117020/bmw-advantec-pro-15w50-motorcyle-oil :

" very interesting seeing that my bmw manual says NO moly additives!! not a lot but 155 ppm, many motorcycle oils use none! being on this forum you prolly realise that semi-syn is quite the rip-off aka polaris semi-syn. there being no laws as to the amount of synthetic in the blend, prolly group III "synthetic" in this case from GTL technology aka purebase pennzoil platinum which may be better than the highly refined CRUDE also classed as group III. at $14.50 a qt i went shopping + found Valvoline "fully synthetic" motorcycle oil meets the SJ/JASO MA2 spec for $8.50 a qt @ wallys. its surely a group III synthetic + not a group IV or V base oil at that price + being all group III may very well be better than the $14.50 BMW ADVANTEC PRO 15-50 spec'd for us!! "

 

This is regarding a VOA of the Advantec 15W50 so it's possible that the additives are different for the 5W40.

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Dave_in_TX

I only see the analysis for Molbil 1.

On 9/17/2019 at 7:14 AM, realshelby said:

Oil threads are often loathed. Partly due to posts saying "my oil is best, it is what YOU should be using" attitudes. Very few facts are in play. 

 

Well, here are some facts. I am sure there will be someone post that Blackstone labs can't do this or that, or that they are not accurate or may be biased. I have no response to that in this post. 

 

This oil report analysis is for my 2014 BMW R 1200 RT. Look for the line that says "Sample Date". 

 

Sample date of 9/1/2019 is the most recent. Castrol Racing 4T 10-40

 

Sample date of 6/16/2019 was Liqui-Moly 5-40 full synthetic 

 

Sample date of 11/6/2016  is the OLD formula Shell Rotella T-6  5-40

 

The samples of liqui-moly and Castrol could not be more equal. Both with about the same miles. Both used on one 4000+ mile trip, one 2500+ mile trip and a little local riding. 

I switched to the Castrol 10-40 hoping it would shift better. It did NOT shift as well as the other oils! Not a good feel at all. I also wondered if the 10-40 viscosity might show less shearing. It also doesn't quite measure up to the Liqui-Moly in other ways. Liqui-Moly is in the bike again, and shifting is back to normal. Which is pretty good really. 

Blackstone3.jpeg

 

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92Merc

I thought I would reach out to Liquid Moly, just to see what they have to say.  This is their response:

 

Dear Dale,

thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

BMW Motorbike prohibits in its service instructions the use of Molybenum Disulfide (MoS2) based additives in the engine oil. The reason is - according to BMW-  that under certain circumstances coatings in the engine can be peeled off.
Neither LIQUI MOLY or other contacts in the lubricant business have observed the peel effeffect  of any coating in an BMW Motorbike engines, yet.
On the BMW Motorbike Days 2019 in Garmisch Patenkirchen non of the engineers of BMW Motorbike could answer the question of a participant which coating exactly may peel off...

We have inhouse experience with R1200 and R1250 engines, with a 3% treatrate of LIQUI MOLY Motorbike Oil Additive for more than 80.000 kms / 50.000 miles now without any issue. Indeed, we observe a smooth running of the engine and also see no negative effekt on the wet clutch.

Further none of our LIQUI MOLY Motorbike 4T oils do contain MoS2 - we just offer it as additional treatment.


We hope we could help you with our information. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.

 




Freundliche Grüße / Best regards
 
i. A. Steffen Niemietz
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
 
F & E / Anwendungstechnik
 
Phone:        +49 731 1420-658
Mobil:        +49 162 2815064
Fax:        +49 731 1420-44658
steffen.niemietz@liqui-moly.de
   
LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4 | 89081 Ulm | GERMANY
   
www.liqui-moly.de

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Paul De

That Liqui Moly response is interesting.  Direct and absent of the typical corporate weasel words on their position.

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longjohn
On 9/17/2019 at 10:30 AM, longjohn said:

Blackstone kit ordered.

Blackstone kit sent back w/oil.

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Paul De

Did I miss the post.  Did anyone already have a test done on BMW Advantec Ultimate 5W-40, fresh or otherwise? We would put a bow on this thing with that info.

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longjohn
On 9/25/2019 at 7:05 AM, Paul De said:

Did I miss the post.  Did anyone already have a test done on BMW Advantec Ultimate 5W-40, fresh or otherwise? We would put a bow on this thing with that info.

It’s a comin’.  By the time I get back off the road there should be an email for me. 

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Endobobdds
On 9/26/2019 at 10:58 PM, longjohn said:

It’s a comin’.  By the time I get back off the road there should be an email for me. 

 

Look forward to the report!   I am slightly overdue for my next oil change.  I bought the Beemer Boneyard 4L jug of LiquiMoly a while ago for this next oil change.   However after reading through this post I have been considering purchasing the BMW Advantec oil that I used on the first 3 oil changes since my '18 GSA is still under warranty. 

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MichiganBob

Suspense grows...........

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realshelby
8 hours ago, Endobobdds said:

 

Look forward to the report!   I am slightly overdue for my next oil change.  I bought the Beemer Boneyard 4L jug of LiquiMoly a while ago for this next oil change.   However after reading through this post I have been considering purchasing the BMW Advantec oil that I used on the first 3 oil changes since my '18 GSA is still under warranty. 

My Liqui-Moly report only showed 1 ppm of moly in it. Which is as close to none as you can get. It meets the other criteria BMW specifies. But it will be interesting to see the results from the new sample of Advantec!

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longjohn
13 hours ago, Endobobdds said:

 

Look forward to the report!   I am slightly overdue for my next oil change.  I bought the Beemer Boneyard 4L jug of LiquiMoly a while ago for this next oil change.   However after reading through this post I have been considering purchasing the BMW Advantec oil that I used on the first 3 oil changes since my '18 GSA is still under warranty. 

I'm still waiting for it.  I called them and they said a few more days.  :(

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Paul De

:lurk:

 

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longjohn
On 10/1/2019 at 10:54 AM, Paul De said:

:lurk:

 

Sorry.  I'm a day late.  I get so busy being retired.  :grin:

 

Anyhoooo.  You won't believe the report :rofl:  :

 

1201369762_ScreenShot2019-10-08at8_12_21PM.png.9d4a67a05da67b0f903551414e71259c.png

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Paul De
10 hours ago, longjohn said:

Anyhoooo.  You won't believe the report :rofl:  :

 

Haha, I am not so surprised Molybdenum was present in the Advantec Ultra oil given that virtually all of the current generation of synthetic oils contain this additive, but at more than 2x the universal average makes BMWs (Cameron's) response to BrianM bordering on disingenuous.  Well the upside is that SL,SM  and SN along with Liqui Moly's to the point response shared here are as safe to use as BMWs precious Advantec Ultra oil in their motors.

 

So, what oil makes your bike shift smoother?

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Dave_in_TX
7 hours ago, Paul De said:

 

Haha, I am not so surprised Molybdenum was present in the Advantec Ultra oil given that virtually all of the current generation of synthetic oils contain this additive, but at more than 2x the universal average makes BMWs (Cameron's) response to BrianM bordering on disingenuous.  Well the upside is that SL,SM  and SN along with Liqui Moly's to the point are as safe to use as BMWs precious Advantec Ultra oil in their motors.

 

So, what oil makes your bike shift smoother?

Add me to the list of those not surprised to see some moly in the Advantec Ultra.

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realshelby

That is surprising! I would like to see what a BMW rep would say to you after seeing this!

 

Sure makes Liqui-Moly seem to be a very good oil. I would like to see a test result of this oil with 5-7,000 miles on it to compare. 

 

Thank you for taking time and spending the money for this very conclusive report!

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realshelby
On 9/21/2019 at 1:40 PM, Dave_in_TX said:

I only see the analysis for Molbil 1.

 

I just realized I made a mistake in my description. The first column is listed correctly in the Blackstone report, it is Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10-40. I list this first column as "Castrol Racing 4T 10-40 " in my written description above the report. That is wrong, there is no Castrol used in the three analysis reports. I cannot go back and fix my post from 9/17...maybe a mod can?

 

Last thing I wanted to add to an oil discussion was confusion!

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92Merc

Has anyone done a "clean" oil report on the Shell Rotella T6?  I'd be curious how that compares to the Advantec. 

 

I still plan on staying with Moly.  But if T6 comes in the same as Advantec, it would be a good "backup" oil should I need some ASAP.

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Paul De

Realshelby reminds me of my lack of manners, so excuse my miss to say thanks to all who have sent oil off for testing as the data really has taken this oil discussion to another level by using data and facts and not just opinion.  Good stuff!

 

 

2 hours ago, realshelby said:

Sure makes Liqui-Moly seem to be a very good oil. I would like to see a test result of this oil with 5-7,000 miles on it to compare. 

 

I am not sure but I think you are referring to a used sample of Advantec Ultra.  I am coming up on an oil change with Advantec Ultra in the motor so unless someone already has this data I will step up and send my used sample in.  The caveat is that we are in for some snow this weekend (oof) and if they lay some salt down, it may mess up hitting the mark for mileage.  Also the data I will share will be about a month out from now given my schedule. 

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realshelby
1 hour ago, Paul De said:

 

I am not sure but I think you are referring to a used sample of Advantec Ultra.  

I think the sample longjohn sent in was from a new container of that oil. From the looks of the report it was not used as there is no silicon or iron reported for instance. 

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Cap
8 hours ago, 92Merc said:

Has anyone done a "clean" oil report on the Shell Rotella T6? 

 

Yes, I posted a link on page 1 of this thread.  Rotella T6 CK-4 has half the molybdenum of longjohn's Advantec.

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Paul De
8 hours ago, realshelby said:

I think the sample longjohn sent in was from a new container of that oil. From the looks of the report it was not used as there is no silicon or iron reported for instance. 

Right, longjohn's sample was fresh.   So, I will sample and test used Advantec so, to a degree, it can be compared to several of your samples (assumes riding conditions  and our motors are wearing very similarly).  Close enough for hand grenades, and horse shoes.

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MichiganBob

A little help here please for the aged. Is molybdenum a good thing, bad thing, neutral, or it depends on how much? For example, the post above stated that the Rotella T6 has half the moly of the Advantex. Is that a red flag or just an interesting fact. Would one want to stop using the T6 because of this?

 

One more question. My 2018 has a bunch of warranty left on it. I had the dealer change the oil at 600 but I was going to do my own oil changes from now on. Will using something other than the Advantec void my warranty or at least raise an issue with BMW if something goes wrong with the engine? I  would go with the Liquidmoly based on what I read here and save at least a few bucks.

 

Many thanks.

 

Michigan Bob

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Paul De

Molybdenum is a common additive in the latest generation oils and I believe are added to improve antiwear properties as well as reduce catalytic converter poisoning .  So generally a good thing.   In theory if the oil you use meets the stated BMW specification your warranty is not voided.  The problem is that BMW stated specification is confusing in that it states no molybdenum oil supplements and their CS responded here in a way that suggests no molybdenum in the oil,  period.  As we peel the onion, it seems that BMW's recommended labeled oil (BMW Advantec Ultra 5W-40 ) does not meet their stated specification as it contains a healthy slug of molybdenum.  I guess I would avoid the added hassle of proving your alternate oil meets their spec and run Advatec Ultra until your OEM warranty expires.   I you have a third party extended warranty I guess it would be prudent to verify if there is an oil clause in that policy.

 

 

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Dave_in_TX

If I were the poster who received the reply from BMW's CS rep, I would reply asking why their recommended oil has moly when they specially say any moly is harmful just to see what their reaction is.

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Paul De
2 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

If I were the poster who received the reply from BMW's CS rep, I would reply asking why their recommended oil has moly when they specially say any moly is harmful just to see what their reaction is.

 

Haha,  At least we could get a laugh out of the pretzel logic weasel worded response that clarifies nothing! 

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longjohn
19 minutes ago, Paul De said:

 

Haha,  At least we could get a laugh out of the pretzel logic weasel worded response that clarifies nothing! 

Sadly it’s apparent that BMW uses obfuscation to pad their bottom line. 

 

Haha, they treat us like mushrooms:  Kept in the dark and fed manure. :grin:

 

  • Haha 1

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