Experience experimenting with oil

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Paul De said:

So the question for me becomes does API SM specified oil have Molybdenum or not? 

 

Morning Paul

 

That’s  a darn  GOOD POINT_

 

And how much Molybdenum does the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate contain? (anybody have a current Blackstone report?)

 

Or how much Molybdenum does the Mobil 1 4T Racing 10-40 contain. (maybe Terry can tell us this when he gets his Blackstone report back)

 

 

We really need to send in a sample of the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil to Blackstone along with a sample of the Liqi-Moly 5w40 to compare. (maybe everyone could kick in a couple of bucks & we could do that)

 

I just pulled up an old Blackstone report for my BMW 800GS & that is an eye opener-

 

The riders manual for my 800GS reads about the same as far as not using any moly additives

From riders manual below_

 

"Additives (for instance, molybdenum based substances) are prohibited, because they would attack the coatings on engine components, BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Pro Oil Oil

Additives- BMW Motorrad does not recommend the use of oil additives, as these can adversely affect the operation of the clutch. Ask your BMW Motorrad retailer for engine oils suitable for your motorcycle."

 

So I had an old Blackstone oil report done back in early 2016  on having the BMW 15w50 ADVANTEC Pro Oil  tested (800GS uses 15w50 oil). The 15w50 ADVANTEC Pro Oil  was new from the bottle as I had a little left over from an oil change. 

 

The report shows 152 for Molybdenum.  (go figure?)

 

Now I sent that sample in with a slew of other auto related oil's  (for work reasons),  I think the report is accurate but I can't guarantee it.   

 

There are different types of oil Moly with some being soluble & other types being more of a solid suspended in the oil.  (if I get a chance I will talk with our oil expert where I work), I think I remember him telling me a while back that the solid type of Moly can form acid under certain conditions but I can't remember the reference that was referring to.

 

I guess the more we talk about  this BMW oil/moly thing the less I seem to understand about it.

 

 

 

 

[MichiganBob]

Good Morning,

 

I had my 600 mile oil change at the dealer last month as I figured it was a good idea for warranty purposes. I called them yesterday as I wanted to top off the oil level 3,000 miles later. Asked what they used for the oil change. He said that they use the BMW oil but I would be fine with Shell 5-40 or Mobil I 10-40 Motorcycle Racing 4T. It's all pretty interesting. I'm not sue in the big picture how much difference there would be between the ADVANTEC, Castrol, Mobil-1, Rotella, or Liquid Moly on performance and durability. This is a very interesting thread. It's appreciated.

[Paul De]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

I guess the more we talk about  this BMW oil/moly thing the less I seem to understand about it.

+1 on that.   The BMW Motorrad response artfully avoids commenting specifically on the additive content of Advantec and simply saying no molybdenum additive allowed still leaves open that some minimal level may in fact be in all of these synthetic oils. 

 

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

We really need to send in a sample of the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil to Blackstone along with a sample of the Liqi-Moly 5w40 to compare. (maybe everyone could kick in a couple of bucks & we could do that)

I'd be up for a pooled effort. 

 

 

 

 

[realshelby]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

 

And how much Molybdenum does the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate contain? (anybody have a current Blackstone report?)

 

Or how much Molybdenum does the Mobil 1 4T Racing 10-40 contain. (maybe Terry can tell us this when he gets his Blackstone report back)

 

 

 

 

 

I have the last Blackstone report which had the older formulation of the Shell Rotella T-6 and the most recent Liqui Moly 5-40. The T-6 shows "57" in the Moly line and the Liqui Moly shows "1" in the Moly line. I think/assume these are parts per million? In the "unit averages" the Blackstone report has "29" in the Moly line. I sent off the Mobil 1 4T 10-40 Tuesday. Probably have the report next week sometime. I will scan and post that. 

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, realshelby said:

I have the last Blackstone report which had the older formulation of the Shell Rotella T-6 and the most recent Liqui Moly 5-40. The T-6 shows "57" in the Moly line and the Liqui Moly shows "1" in the Moly line. I think/assume these are parts per million? In the "unit averages" the Blackstone report has "29" in the Moly line. I sent off the Mobil 1 4T 10-40 Tuesday. Probably have the report next week sometime. I will scan and post that. 

 

 

Thanks Terry

 

How many miles on the T-6 & on the Liqui Moly 5-40 at test time?

 

Was the Liqui Moly 5-40 the old SL or newer SM?

 

 

 

 

[realshelby]

T-6  4,990 miles

Liqui Moly  7,157 miles 

 

This Liqui Moly is the SM API rating.

[Paul De]

This is turning into a tail chaser.

Looking high and low for a TDS for Advantec Ultimate draws nothing, no TDS, PDS or MSDS(SDS).  They have that wrapped up tight and I think that might not be legal.

 

On the Shell website,  in their Advance Motorcycle Oil section, they promote the BMW relationship and of course Advantec Ultimate oil but no access to a TDS or SDS.    More goofy than that is if you use the find the right oil for your motorcycle tool for the US part of Shell's website it has no way to search for a Motorcycle.  But on the Great Britain and the Gremany portions of their website you can.  Putting in BMW R1200RT 2015 and newer gets you this.   What the hell! API SN.MA2!!!

[dirtrider]

27 minutes ago, Paul De said:

This is turning into a tail chaser.

Looking high and low for a TDS for Advantec Ultimate draws nothing, no TDS, PDS or MSDS(SDS).  They have that wrapped up tight and I think that might not be legal.

 

On the Shell website,  in their Advance Motorcycle Oil section, they promote the BMW relationship and of course Advantec Ultimate oil but no access to a TDS or SDS.    More goofy than that is if you use the find the right oil for your motorcycle tool for the US part of Shell's website it has no way to search for a Motorcycle.  But on the Great Britain and the Gremany portions of their website you can.  Putting in BMW R1200RT 2015 and newer gets you this.   What the hell! API SN.MA2!!!

 

 

Afternoon Paul

 

This is turning into a tail chaser.-- That pretty well explains it.

 

This oil spec thing has been typical of BMW for quite a long time now. (you can't say that BMW is dumb)

 

By U.S. law they can't 'require' that a rider to use the BMW brand (BMW sold)  motor  oil  without supplying it for free. But apparently they can require a specific  oil spec or special oil requirement that only their oil seems to meet,  then blur/hide the specification of THEIR oil so it is extremely difficult to match to a generic supplier.  

 

It brings back bad memories as I went though this when I got my 800GS. I had a dickens of a time trying to match any of the major motor oils to the letter of the  BMW requirement.   I finally sent a sample of new (unused) BMW 15w50 ADVANTEC Pro Oil in for analysis  then tried to match the contents. The closest oil that I found met most of the BMW specs only it was an MA not an MA-2 oil. I finally found a  10w50 MA-2 that was real close but BMW required (per their riders manual) a 15w50 oil.

 

I used the 10w50 MA-2 for quite a while, then Liqui-Moly came out with a closer 15w50 match so that is what I use now (plus I am long out of warranty now).

 

I sometimes wonder how large their (BMW's) oil  specification team is as they are real thinkers when it comes to narrow window one-of-a kind oil requirements (must be a LOT of mark-up & a lot revenue  in OEM oil sales)--  Probably learned it from Harley.

 

 

 

 

[Skywagon]

If they were following Harley the oil would have Chrome Moly.  

[lkchris]

BMW Advantec oil is an oil refined from natural gas rather than crude.  It's a process pioneered by Shell, and you may have seen in the USA Pennzoil TV commercials to the effect they have the first ever natural gas derived oil.  That's OK, as Shell owns Pennzoil.  Advantec is made in Germany.

 

I've previously read all about the Shell European product, and learned that there are several varieties.  For one thing, the 5W-40 for wet clutch BMWs is full synthetic, the 15W-50 version for air cooled bikes (separate transmission) is semi-synthetic.  The words Pro and Ultimate are the clues.  There is a lesser known and more seldom seen formulation for old Airheads in 20W-50 as well ... it's labeled "mineral oil."

 

[PatM]

I think you guys are overthinking this. You should read what Jaso MA2 specs are.

[realshelby]

31 minutes ago, PatM said:

I think you guys are overthinking this. You should read what Jaso MA2 specs are.

I imagine several here have read JASO MA2 specs. For instance, Shell Rotella T-6 is JASO MA2 rated and in the correct viscosity. Yet not does NOT meet BMW specs for the Wethead engine. 

 

What I mean is that there is more to it than JUST JASO MA2. The API spec comes into play as well. While JASO specs do cover internal combustion engine specifications, it is typically thought of, in the US at least, of more of a wet clutch specification. That isn't entirely true, but when BMW also specifies what API rating and what additives NOT to use, it takes a bit of overthinking if buying anything but the BMW oil at the Dealer. 

[Cap]

31 minutes ago, PatM said:

I think you guys are overthinking this. You should read what Jaso MA2 specs are.

 

You're probably right about over-thinking it... but that's what curious people do.  With respect to JASO MA2 -- that is a spec for wet clutch vehicles having shared oil for a transmission and an engine.  All the oils we are talking about meet JASO MA2 specs.  The issue is which oil meets the other BMW specs of API SL and no molybdenum.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, lkchris said:

 

I've previously read all about the Shell European product, and learned that there are several varieties.  For one thing, the 5W-40 for wet clutch BMWs is full synthetic, the 15W-50 version for air cooled bikes (separate transmission) is semi-synthetic.  The words Pro and Ultimate are the clues.  There is a lesser known and more seldom seen formulation for old Airheads in 20W-50 as well ... it's labeled "mineral oil."

 

 

Afternoon Kent

 

The air cooled/water cooled, Ultimate vs Pro, is not a true definer as the BMW 800GS  is a water cooled engine with wet clutch &  an integral transmission but BMW specifics the 15w50 Pro oil for that bike.

[Paul De]

5 hours ago, lkchris said:

BMW Advantec oil is an oil refined from natural gas rather than crude.

 

The NG source has way more to do with economics than technology  Fracking has made NG the most cost effective way to get to many of the added value molecules in the refined chemical industry in the last 10 years,  Seems Shell, and Penzoil in particular, is reviving an ancient motor oil argument around paraffinic vs napthenic as the better base oil for lubing your engine while trying to put pricing sizzle on a mundane sourcing for cost decision. Gotta give the marketing folks something to do!  In any case, the source of the base oil isn't the driver of BMW's objection to other oils.  Pretty savvy on BMW's part to single out a major additive used in most modern motor oils as a bad actor in their engines to corner owners into using their stuff at twice the price.

[Paul De]

3 hours ago, Skywagon said:

If they were following Harley the oil would have Chrome Moly.  

 

Haha and you would need one of these to open the can  Only $100 at your dealer!

[Paul De]

OK I'm finally fed up and done with this tail chasing spec thing.

 

it seems that even the BMW recommended Advantec Ultimate 5W-40 does not meet the stated API requirement listed in the Waterhead and Shiftcam owners manual!    I'm back to what DR said days ago... it likely doesn't matter if it is SL vs SM and now even BMW is wanting to sell us their branded oil rated as API SN

 

Back of bottle says API SN MA-2!!!

Experiment away!  Liqui Molly here I come!

 

[realshelby]

On 9/4/2019 at 7:48 AM, dirtrider said:

 

 

 

There are different types of oil Moly with some being soluble & other types being more of a solid suspended in the oil.  (if I get a chance I will talk with our oil expert where I work), I think I remember him telling me a while back that the solid type of Moly can form acid under certain conditions but I can't remember the reference that was referring to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DR, you might be onto something there. I have been thinking about the statement BMW uses saying the Molybdenum may attack coatings in the engine. There was only one coating I could come up with, possibly piston skirts. But when I thought about your statement about acids, that makes sense. Not educated in that field, but from what I researched it is indeed possible to have a Molybdenum based acid. Which could attack coatings....on bearings, rings, and other parts. That can be an issue with long drain intervals ( not necessarily just Moly based acid but combustion process gasses that combine with agents to create acid ) and has been known about for a long time. 

[realshelby]

20 minutes ago, Paul De said:

OK I'm finally fed up and done with this tail chasing spec thing.

 

it seems that even the BMW recommended Advantec Ultimate 5W-40 does not meet the stated API requirement listed in the Waterhead and Shiftcam owners manual!    I'm back to what DR said days ago... it likely doesn't matter if it is SL vs SM and now even BMW is wanting to sell us their branded oil rated as API SN

 

Back of bottle says API SN MA-2!!!

Experiment away!  Liqui Molly here I come!

 

API considers its oil ratings to be backward compatible. Meaning an oil rated SN should meet all specifications for an oil labeled SM. There are cases where that came into question..........It sure proves that there is room to consider other brands.....

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, realshelby said:

API considers its oil ratings to be backward compatible. Meaning an oil rated SN should meet all specifications for an oil labeled SM. There are cases where that came into question..........It sure proves that there is room to consider other brands.....

 

Afternoon Terry

 

That is the generally accepted concept BUT! there are definite outliers to this idea.

 

You really don't want to use  an SL, SN, or, SM rated oil in a older engines with heavy valve springs & non-roller lifters  or you could wipe the cam lobes out in short order. (this is the area that you start trading off high ZDDP type anti-wear additives  against modern emission device protection). Porsche has been trying to stay ahead of this curve for a long time now) 

 

In fact back in the BMW 1150 days BMW sent out a service bulletin to dealers warning to not use or substitute  SJ rated oil for the recommended SG or SH.

 

One of the problems with older API oil ratings is they become obsolete-- You could have a wonderful oil that you just blended up, with plenty of ZDDP additives but you couldn't get it rated as an SG oil on a bet as  the old SG rating is now obsolete so they won't rate to that API specification any longer.  About the best you can do now is have it rated to whatever the modern API spec that it meets, THEN add a note on the label  that it meets (or exceeds) SG specs (problem is this might or might not be tested/verified true).

 

You need to give BMW credit as  they are masters at playing the oil requirement game (somehow it always benefits them & their bottom line).

 

 

[Cap]

1 hour ago, Paul De said:

OK I'm finally fed up and done with this tail chasing spec thing....Back of bottle says API SN MA-2!!!

 

I would be curious to know how much phosphorus is in this oil.  JASO MA2 spec is 800-1200 ppm phosphorus.  API SN implies 800 ppm or less.  Maybe the specs have some flexibility?

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, Cap said:

 

I would be curious to know how much phosphorus is in this oil.  JASO MA2 spec is 800-1200 ppm phosphorus.  API SN implies 800 ppm or less.  Maybe the specs have some flexibility?

 

Evening Cap

 

This is a good point_

 

 But might not be a problem, if BMW is now selling an SN MA-2 oil for the wethead bikes then the wethead  probably doesn't  need a high Zinc/Prosperous content oil.  Or possibly the Zinc/Prosperous has been replaced with a higher Boron content. 

 

Or, the 5w40 viscosity oil  isn't  typically  an automotive emission engine oil weight & it DOES have a MA-2 rating  so maybe the 5w40 has a higher ZDDP level. Most automotive viscosity SN oils don't have an MA-2 rating but my guess is most were never tested to meet MA-2 as they are designed & sold  for a different market.  

 

If it meets the MA-2 spec then it must have a high enough anti-wear content to meet the MA-2 rating.

 

Bottom line: if BMW is now selling & recommending their SN rated Advantec Ultimate 5W-40  for the wethead  then they must be good with the anti-scuff/ anti-wear content of that oil. All we have to do is match it's content with a lower priced competitors oil.

 

 

[longjohn]

On September 4, 2019 at 5:48 AM, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Paul

 

That’s  a darn  GOOD POINT_

 

And how much Molybdenum does the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate contain? (anybody have a current Blackstone report?)

 

Or how much Molybdenum does the Mobil 1 4T Racing 10-40 contain. (maybe Terry can tell us this when he gets his Blackstone report back)

 

 

We really need to send in a sample of the BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil to Blackstone along with a sample of the Liqi-Moly 5w40 to compare. (maybe everyone could kick in a couple of bucks & we could do that)

 

I just pulled up an old Blackstone report for my BMW 800GS & that is an eye opener-

 

The riders manual for my 800GS reads about the same as far as not using any moly additives

From riders manual below_

 

"Additives (for instance, molybdenum based substances) are prohibited, because they would attack the coatings on engine components, BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Pro Oil Oil

Additives- BMW Motorrad does not recommend the use of oil additives, as these can adversely affect the operation of the clutch. Ask your BMW Motorrad retailer for engine oils suitable for your motorcycle."

 

So I had an old Blackstone oil report done back in early 2016  on having the BMW 15w50 ADVANTEC Pro Oil  tested (800GS uses 15w50 oil). The 15w50 ADVANTEC Pro Oil  was new from the bottle as I had a little left over from an oil change. 

 

The report shows 152 for Molybdenum.  (go figure?)

 

Now I sent that sample in with a slew of other auto related oil's  (for work reasons),  I think the report is accurate but I can't guarantee it.   

 

There are different types of oil Moly with some being soluble & other types being more of a solid suspended in the oil.  (if I get a chance I will talk with our oil expert where I work), I think I remember him telling me a while back that the solid type of Moly can form acid under certain conditions but I can't remember the reference that was referring to.

 

I guess the more we talk about  this BMW oil/moly thing the less I seem to understand about it.

 

 

 

 

Hi DR

i have an open bottle of advantec 5-40. How much does black stone require?  

[dirtrider]

36 minutes ago, longjohn said:

Hi DR

i have an open bottle of advantec 5-40. How much does black stone require?  

 

 

Evening longjohn

 

They usually request 3 ounces but they can run most tests on slightly less. (Blackstone will send out a test kit for free).

[Selden]

On 9/4/2019 at 8:48 AM, dirtrider said:

I guess the more we talk about  this BMW oil/moly thing the less I seem to understand about it.

This is the first oil thread I can remember that was actually informative. 

[MichiganBob]

Good Evening,

 

I would be glad to contribute to the cause. Let me know.

 

MB

[Paul De]

I am still in for the analysis for the pure edification of this convoluted spec maze put up by BMW motorrad.  At the same time I wonder with this information what are we trying to prove? That the BMW muddied the waters with their recommended oils which actually do have some molybdenum content?  And where do we go with that information other than to say liar, liar pants on fire. If someone had a rejected warranty claim specifically tied to the use of a molybdenum containing oil, that would be a cause to champion.  I guess it might be nice to have the data on molybdenum content of Advantec Ultra 5W-40 to use to select alternative oils that are equivalent and to defend a warranty claim.  The statistician in me says we need to send several samples of Advantec purchased over some months to tie this up without leaving  room for BMW to weasel out of a warranty claim

 

 

[LAF]

So a bit off track but as to coatings, I thought the cylinder walls were nikasil and the piston skirts also.  Is the cylinder wall no longer nikasil?

 

[dirtrider]

49 minutes ago, LAF said:

So a bit off track but as to coatings, I thought the cylinder walls were nikasil and the piston skirts also.  Is the cylinder wall no longer nikasil?

 

 

Afternoon LAF

 

Good question, with the new engine design having the cylinders cast integral with the block I'm not sure if the cylinders are still nikasil or not.

 

Now on the pistons, those never were nikasil plated. The pistons probably are coated with a special anti-friction/ anti-scuff material but definitely not nikasil.

 

When it comes to engine internally coated parts that has a broad range of applications like the alternator  stator windings being coated with an insulating protective coating, to probably some type of engine casting internal coating to prevent porosity seepage, to piston skirt special coatings, to gasket coatings to promote sealing & prevent erosion, to bolt coatings to prevent oxidation or promote even torqueing, etc. 

 

 

[LAF]

18 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon LAF

 

Good question, with the new engine design having the cylinders cast integral with the block I'm not sure if the cylinders are still nikasil or not.

 

Now on the pistons, those never were nikasil plated. The pistons probably are coated with a special anti-friction/ anti-scuff material but definitely not nikasil.

 

When it comes to engine internally coated parts that has a broad range of applications like the alternator  stator windings being coated with an insulating protective coating, to probably some type of engine casting internal coating to prevent porosity seepage, to piston skirt special coatings, to gasket coatings to promote sealing & prevent erosion, to bolt coatings to prevent oxidation or promote even torqueing, etc. 

 

 

Yes I did not think the piston were ever coated, just the piston skirts. 

 

I am very curious on the cylinders though.  There are other coatings in use that are as good or better then Nikasil but the name escapes me.  A WWW search would yield that info.

 

I would be a bit disappointed if they no longer use Nikasil but I dont think with my current riding habits I am going to wear this motor out before I am wore out. 

 

Back in the day I had upgraded from 88" to 98" jugs on my 05 Road Glide that were Nikasil.  When that bike was tore down 25,000 miles later for more head work you could still see the cross hatch in the cylinder walls.  Before that you could see cylinder walls that were "smooth" or little cross hatch left but they were older bikes back in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

At any rate since my first BMW a 07 LT, I have never seen a cylinder wall of any BMW bike.  Curious if someone knows?

[PadG]

Lee, I am fairly sure that the Niksil process, generically speaking, was developed by BMW back in those days when they were the first to go away from sleeving aluminum blocks with steel sleeves (as every other manufacturer did) in their cars.  I remember reading about the process in my engineering trade magazines back then.  It was quite a break through in weight saving and more important, better thermal transfer.  I am very sure that the process is still being used, if not Nikasil than an improved version.  Coating of the piston doesn't do much, since it's the rings that makes contact with the cylinder walls.  If the piston does make contact, it means that you have some serious problems!  Other items internal to the engine could have "special" coatings.  Gears?  Something that BMW have developed over the years?

[dirtrider]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:36 AM, LAF said:

Yes I did not think the piston were ever coated, just the piston skirts. 

 

I am very curious on the cylinders though.  There are other coatings in use that are as good or better then Nikasil but the name escapes me.  A WWW search would yield that info.

 

I would be a bit disappointed if they no longer use Nikasil but I dont think with my current riding habits I am going to wear this motor out before I am wore out. 

 

Back in the day I had upgraded from 88" to 98" jugs on my 05 Road Glide that were Nikasil.  When that bike was tore down 25,000 miles later for more head work you could still see the cross hatch in the cylinder walls.  Before that you could see cylinder walls that were "smooth" or little cross hatch left but they were older bikes back in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

At any rate since my first BMW a 07 LT, I have never seen a cylinder wall of any BMW bike.  Curious if someone knows?

 

Morning LAF

 

Yes, the piston skirts are the part of the pistons that  rub on the cylinder walls due to connecting rod angularity when off TDC but they would not be hard coated with anything (same reason that you wouldn't use hard steel bearings on a steel crankshaft journal).  Just the alloy piston skirt with probably some sort of anti-friction / anti-scuff coating.  (BMW is pretty tight lipped about piston coatings).

 

As a rule the lower piston skirt area is cam-ground (elliptical) to control lower piston expansion & maintain piston skirt to cylinder clearances as the engine heats up, the pistons need to be tighter in the thrust direction to prevent piston rocking (slapping) noise.  The newer engine designs now have very short pistons  so require very tight sizing & expansion control so you they don't have piston slap.    

 

 

I'm still not sure on cylinder nikasil plating as I can't find reference to it in any of my BMW documentation for the 1200/1250 water cooled engine. BMW used to brag about nikasil plating as a positive feature so  why is the bragging now missing?

 

With the new engine design using cast integral cylinders I suppose it is possible they (BMW) might have dropped the nikasil plating.

 

Until you brought the nikasil thing up I never gave it a thought, now it is something that I am going to try to figure out. (I need to get a good look at a water cooled  1200/1250 bare engine block)

[Paul De]

Interesting.   BMW may have quietly changed the plasma formula away from nikasil.  I read that fuels with higher sulfur content can erode the coating.  Given how long nikasil has been around, I would guess someone has come up with alternative plasma coating formula that are not eroded by higher sulfur levels found in fuel in some regions.  The benefits of plasma coating the cylinder wall seem too many to abandon, but who knows, those German engineers develop unique solutions no one else is using.  Sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Paul De said:

Interesting.   BMW may have quietly changed the plasma formula away from nikasil.  I read that fuels with higher sulfur content can erode the coating.  Given how long nikasil has been around, I would guess someone has come up with alternative plasma coating formula that are not eroded by higher sulfur levels found in fuel in some regions.  The benefits of plasma coating the cylinder wall seem too many to abandon, but who knows, those German engineers develop unique solutions no one else is using.  Sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much.

 

 

Morning Paul

 

I can't see a high sulfur fuel being a problem or a reason for nikasil discontinued use as high sulfur fuel kills modern emission controls so has pretty well been eliminated from modern gasoline.

 

Might have been an older  problem (pre modern emission era) in older BMW cars or in older diesel engines but even diesel fuel has gone to low sulfur content due to emission concerns.

 

If nikasil use has been discontinued by BMW (we don't know for sure that it has)  then it would probably be for other reasons. 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon______

 

Well, after looking around I did find this__ BMW is claiming an LDS process on the 1200LC engines (but I couldn't verify accuracy of this statement). 

 

I did find this___

 

"We will also bring the world-leading innovative wire arc spraying technology to the Shenyang plant, and will also further upgrade the sand core molding technique in Shenyang."

In 2013, BMW introduced a wire arc spraying, or LDS, process in the production of die-cast aluminum in crankcases, as the first in the world to use the technique in large-scale series production.

By applying the LDS technology, BMW makes each cylinder 400 grams lighter. The LDS technology replaces the industry's commonly used heavy cast steel sleeve in the cylinder with a thin coat of an iron-based material just 0.33 millimeters thick.

The innovative LDS technology gives the engines resistance to friction, reduces fuel consumption and prolongs the service life of the engine. Cylinders coated using this technology are also extremely robust both thermally and mechanically, according to the company".

 

Also found this_____

 

 

 

[Skywagon]

Hey DR...If they are truly using this then suspect cylinder walls to be aluminum.  It isn't exactly new as BMW claims.  Mercedes calls is nanoslide I think.  It was a big selling point at the dealer claiming longer life, cooler engines, world hunger. It's been in the MB AMG family for a few years.  The only spec I can find on recommended oil is 229.C.....whatever the heck that is

 

Personally I am a big fan of Nikasil...tougher than nails with the only down side I am aware of is making sure you break them in correctly.  Not sure what effect oils will have on LDS/Nanoslide

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Hey DR...If they are truly using this then suspect cylinder walls to be aluminum.  It isn't exactly new as BMW claims.  Mercedes calls is nanoslide I think.  It was a big selling point at the dealer claiming longer life, cooler engines, world hunger. It's been in the MB AMG family for a few years.  The only spec I can find on recommended oil is 229.C.....whatever the heck that is

 

Personally I am a big fan of Nikasil...tougher than nails with the only down side I am aware of is making sure you break them in correctly.  Not sure what effect oils will have on LDS/Nanoslide

 

 

Afternoon   Skywagon

 

The older nikasil cylinders were aluminum with a Nickel Silicon Carbide (nikasil)  plating on them so not much changed in the concept.

[WBinDE]

On 8/19/2019 at 5:41 PM, 92Merc said:

... I read somewhere that Shell will no longer be getting the T6 certified for API specs.  From my understanding, that is a car spec.  Since T6 is diesel spec oil, don't be surprised if that number disappears...

 

API generates specs for both gasoline and diesel oils. Once upon a time the first letter of the spec signified the intended application of the oil: S was for "spark ignition" (gasoline) and C was for "compression ignition" (diesel). Now API claims they don't mean that at all, although what they DO mean, if anything, is unknown. Yet they still use the system.

 

At any rate, the current spec for diesel oil is CK-4, and I would expect Shell to continue certifying their diesel oils, including T-6, to CK-4 and subsequent specifications. I expect what you read meant that they just won't certify it for gas engine applications (SN) any more, with or without the MA testing (which is actually a Japanese specification).

[realshelby]

Oil threads are often loathed. Partly due to posts saying "my oil is best, it is what YOU should be using" attitudes. Very few facts are in play. 

 

Well, here are some facts. I am sure there will be someone post that Blackstone labs can't do this or that, or that they are not accurate or may be biased. I have no response to that in this post. 

 

This oil report analysis is for my 2014 BMW R 1200 RT. Look for the line that says "Sample Date". 

 

Sample date of 9/1/2019 is the most recent. Castrol Racing 4T 10-40

 

Sample date of 6/16/2019 was Liqui-Moly 5-40 full synthetic 

 

Sample date of 11/6/2016  is the OLD formula Shell Rotella T-6  5-40

 

The samples of liqui-moly and Castrol could not be more equal. Both with about the same miles. Both used on one 4000+ mile trip, one 2500+ mile trip and a little local riding. 

I switched to the Castrol 10-40 hoping it would shift better. It did NOT shift as well as the other oils! Not a good feel at all. I also wondered if the 10-40 viscosity might show less shearing. It also doesn't quite measure up to the Liqui-Moly in other ways. Liqui-Moly is in the bike again, and shifting is back to normal. Which is pretty good really. 

[realshelby]

Thought it might be relevant to post the previous report. What they say about thin viscosity is interesting. Since all oils are showing this, I wonder if BMW allows for this when selecting oil viscosity? Could that be why they want 5-40 instead of 5-20 ( or 0-20 ) like they use in their car engines?

[hopz]

Well, friends... I am not being "snarky" here but for the record  I did not have any of these issues in my '14.

I followed all the recommended protocols but used whatever oil I wanted. Usually Castrol... I do not know the chemistry of what I used but probably bought it at AutoZone. in the proper weight.

I never had any issues. No knocks, strange noises, fine shifting etc. (I never used clutchless shifting in the lower gears but often the 4-5-6) Yes I did long-range riding and well as short mountain "blasts" here in the rockies. 

 

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade- just a data point.

 

 

[Paul De]

Morning Hopz,

 

We get your point and your position has been an underlying element of the this thread.  In discussing various oil manufacturers and viscosity grades impact on shifting inevitably the discussion bifurcated because of BMW's rather opaque and cramped oil specification. While the shifting discussion will by necessity rely significantly on anecdotal observation, the compliance to BMW's oil specification can be based on data and that is where this discussion has had significant energy as of late.  This  part of the discussion is directly the result of the no molybdenum additive clause in their oil specification.  BMW Tech Support only added fuel to this part of  the discussion with this statement found above " The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components."  Given that almost all modern oils make use of molybdenum additives it seems this clause is intended to secure owners to exclusively use their branded oil.  The issue is further clouded by the fact that the oil they want to sell us also does not strictly adhere  to their API SL- JASO MA2 specification found in the owners manual.

 

I'm sure that you have noticed no difference in the mechanical noises or shifting in the time you have been using any of the alternative oils and that they likely meet API SL, SM, or SN and JASO-MA2, but the no molybdenum clause might be impossible to meet with any, or all of these oils...even for BMW.  Inquiring minds want to know, particularly if you have a motor still under OEM warranty.

[longjohn]

Blackstone kit ordered.

[Skywagon]

So Terry.....this is a great compare since similar mileage.  After those two comparisons...what is your conclusion or hypothesis on LMoly versus Mobile....  

DR would appreciate your thoughts as well.

[realshelby]

29 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

So Terry.....this is a great compare since similar mileage.  After those two comparisons...what is your conclusion or hypothesis on LMoly versus Mobile....  

DR would appreciate your thoughts as well.

Since they both were tested under as equal of conditions as possible, I do have an opinion. Based on the fact that I did not like how the Mobil 1 felt in the transmission compared to any previous oil I had used that is enough that I was suspicious that it might not test as well. As most know, different oils do act differently in bikes with engine oil/transmission oil shared. But that might be subjective to some. 

 

The most obvious fact is that the two wear metals, aluminum and iron, showed the Liqui-Moly to be superior in lubricating the engine/transmission. Mobil 1 with 4ppm compared to LM with 3ppm might not seem like much, but the 4 is 33% more wear metal in the oil than the 3 of the LM. Mobil 1 with 17ppm of iron is 5ppm higher than LM, which means LM has 42% less wear particles of iron in that sample. These two wear metal readings are very important. The aluminum comes from pistons and cam journals as well as some other parts. The iron comes from camshafts , valvetrain components, and of course the transmission components. Watching this iron reading would likely tell of a cam journal going bad for instance. The lead reading was higher in the LM test, but I am not sure beyond main and rod bearings where that might come from. I will watch that on the next test. The stuff toward the bottom I don't know much about, mostly I think those are additives for wear, detergents, and so on. 

 

Viscosity was something I was interested in comparing. I thought the 10-40 formula of the Mobil 1 might show a significantly higher viscosity. It really isn't all that much better and besides I have nothing to say that the viscosity readings of the LM isn't just fine. Blackstone clearly said it was ok. The TBN was really very good in both oils. Total Base Number is what that stands for I think. What it really means is the amount of chemicals in the oil to control acid development, and detergents to keep engine clean, and probably modifiers to prevent sludge and other stuff. 

 

Does any of this matter? Yes, it does. For instance some will cringe at the miles I put on the last two oil changes. Over 7,000 miles. Add to that Blackstone is telling me it is ok to go to 9,000 miles on these oils. Why would anyone do that? Because I have proof the engine is NOT wearing more with extended oil change intervals. It also helps me justify paying a premium price for the Liqui-Moly. I have proof that it is good for 7-9,000 miles. Compared to some of the anal types, I am spending a LOT less on oil than they are and have proof I am ok doing it. 

 

The extended drain intervals matter to me because most of my riding is longer trips. I hate to take a rear tire off with 5000 miles on it, knowing I don't want to trust it to 9-10,000 miles. But I know I can go 9,000 miles on my oil if it works out that way. I had about 4500 miles on the RT when I got the call about needing to attend a funeral in WV last month. I hardly had time to pack, let alone service the RT. I didn't give a second thought about going over 7,000 miles on that oil. 

[Paul De]

Not that the testing methods used were infallible, but Luqi Moly was a top performer in a 5 way comparison in lubricity and a heat degradation pour point test found on the YouTube channel Project Farm.  Mobile 1 not so much.

[Bighopper]

I just took a look for Liquid Moly 5-40..Amazon.ca cheapest was $79.95CDN, that's $20lt. BMW $15. I know what i will buy.

[Dave_in_TX]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 7:33 PM, Paul De said:

So the question for me becomes does API SM specified oil have Molybdenum or not? 

That would depend on the additive package the oil manufacturer uses not the API specification.

 

My interpretation of BWW's warning about molly additives is that they are referring to the use of over-the-counter additives that could be added by the bike owner to the oil. Soluble forms of molly are common in many  motor oils. It's one way to compensate for lower levels of zinc and phosphorus in the newer oils.

[Paul De]

Hi Dave_in_TX,

 

No need for any of us to interpret what BMW meant in the Owners Manual wording based on the formal response BrianM received from BMW Motorrad USA a few weeks back. 

 

Now maybe Cameron at BMW is a CS person regurgitating a canned statement from the three ring binder in front of him and not the nuanced response we might get from an engineer with deep knowledge of these internal coatings and the impact of various forms of molybdenum on them, but you have to assume this is their official position.  

 

So given that molybdenum is a very common and potentially an ubiquitous additive found in the latest generation of synthetic oils I remain curious if BMW even meets their stated specification concerning molybdenum.  For sure BMW has skilfully created enough uncertainty that if your bike is still under OEM warranty the safe bet is to stick with the BMW branded Avantec Ultimate oil.

 

Given that many of us ride our bike for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, it would be nice to know if some/any of these alternate oils ultimately results in a shortened service life because the oil contained "any" molybdenum.

 

(FYI I added bold and underlined text in the BMW response)

 

On 9/3/2019 at 7:24 PM, BrianM said:

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

 

[Dave_in_TX]

21 hours ago, Paul De said:

Hi Dave_in_TX,

 

No need for any of us to interpret what BMW meant in the Owners Manual wording based on the formal response BrianM received from BMW Motorrad USA a few weeks back. 

 

Now maybe Cameron at BMW is a CS person regurgitating a canned statement from the three ring binder in front of him and not the nuanced response we might get from an engineer with deep knowledge of these internal coatings and the impact of various forms of molybdenum on them, but you have to assume this is their official position.  

 

So given that molybdenum is a very common and potentially an ubiquitous additive found in the latest generation of synthetic oils I remain curious if BMW even meets their stated specification concerning molybdenum.  For sure BMW has skilfully created enough uncertainty that if your bike is still under OEM warranty the safe bet is to stick with the BMW branded Avantec Ultimate oil.

 

Given that many of us ride our bike for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, it would be nice to know if some/any of these alternate oils ultimately results in a shortened service life because the oil contained "any" molybdenum.

 

(FYI I added bold and underlined text in the BMW response)

The response did not clarify anything, it was more of the same ambiguous wording. In fact, the statement " The use of additives is prohibited ", if interpreted as referring to what the oil manufacturer did, would man that no oil available is suitable since they all contain additives. That response makes me more certain that BMW is referring to over the counter additives added to oil.