Starter or Battery Redux

[Skywagon]

Roger...I've been watching your thread both in awe and to learn.  Thanks for posting and glad this worked for you.  The thought that keeps crossing my mind is how much people rave about the Odyssey family, yet it seems like special chargers, possibly high voltage regulators, etc are required.  I have never used an Odyssey.  I typically change my battery about every 5 years ( if I keep the bike that long) and I simply put mine on a Deltrans maintenance charger.

 

Honest question....I know Odyssey is good as I see that here all the time...but what are the virtues above other batteries that would worth the care and attention?

 

It's so freaking hot here right now I only ride about once a month.  When I hit the starter it starts so quickly it always catches me by surprise.  It's pretty much instantly.

 

Still trying to learn from guys like you and DR who are in another zone of skill and expertise.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Skywagon, That’s a good question. The main advantage I see for an agm battery is that it’s maintenance free, and won’t spill its electrolyte in a tip over. Any AGM requires appropriate handling, specific to the battery type. (A flooded lead acid battery’s electrolyte gets boiled away if you use an agm charger.) I seem to get about 8 years from one once I stop myself from mistreating them. 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

Honest question....I know Odyssey is good as I see that here all the time...but what are the virtues above other batteries that would worth the care and attention?

 

 

Afternoon Skywagon   

 

At first read it looks like the Odyssey sufferers from some sort of sulfation issue/

 

Most all vehicle starting  batteries  are prone to sulfation issues if charged incorrectly or not properly stored/maintained. You just don't know it, or have an approved way to correct it. The cranking gets slower with age or the ABS goes into default & flashes the warning lights.

 

Even a moderately sulfated Odyssey will start most motorcycle engines, it just won't crank it with the authority of a new battery. But the Odyssey as a rule doesn't just suddenly go click/click/click when you hit the starter button like other motorcycle batteries (especially GEL batteries).   

 

The upside to the Odyssey is that there  (is)  a verified way to reclaim the battery & restore almost new cranking power.

 

The Odyssey PC 680 could use a couple more CCA, if it had a few more Cold Cranking Amps then a rider would never even know that it was slightly sulfated. The trade-off (is) to get more CCA in a PC 680 sized battery  the battery plates & case  would need to get thinner/larger & less robust so then you get into the sudden death failure of other AGM batteries.

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

After three discharge/recharge cycles following Odyssey's instructions for how to desulfate the PC680 in order to regain its lost capacity, the GS-911 Wifi was used to collect a start-up voltage data set this morning. In its fastest mode, the GS-911 captures battery voltage and RPM data every 325 mS (about three samples per second), something that can't be done with ordinary shop tools or a regular DVM.

 

My R1150GS now starts in under a second after an overnight cool-down period, and the minimum transient voltage is about 10V, up from 8V prior to reconditioning. Battery capacity improved about 20%, increasing to 92%, compared to 78% prior to reconditioning. The ABS no longer logs an error at start-up, compared to several errors before. The steady state cranking voltage (fuel pump relay removed) has improved about a quarter volt, now at about 10.6V compared to 10.3 V before.

 

The main lesson learned here (as I did on the RT) is that it's not too hard to damage the PC680 by improperly charging it. Even with a boosted voltage regulator, this battery was sulfated by a non-approved charger, which ran only 6 hours per week, for about 6 months.

 

All in all, the results look good, a success. It'll be interesting to see how many more years I get from this battery. In the future, since the PC680 has a low self-discharge rate, I'm thinking that I'll remove the battery for the winter, use no battery maintainer, and recharge it when the bike comes out of storage.

 

Below are the before and after charts showing the significantly improved voltage response to starting.

 

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

That is good improvement, please keep us updated on how it performs in the future.

 

I haven't ever takin the time or effort to record all the data that you have as I just run the reclaim process twice then go with that.

 

About all I see when I run the recondition with a 3 amp +/- load down to 10 v is that I usually gain about 1 hour of rundown time on the 2nd rundown so I know I have gained that much on capacity.

 

Removing (or just disconnecting) the PC 680  battery's  for winter storage has worked good for me & that gives the first post-storage charge a pretty good hit of current.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skywagon]

Thanks DR....one more question...when a battery is in the somewhat depleted sulfate stage and causes the ABS lights to flash...will the lights go away after start and drive or do you need to reset with GS - 911

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Thanks DR....one more question...when a battery is in the somewhat depleted sulfate stage and causes the ABS lights to flash...will the lights go away after start and drive or do you need to reset with GS - 911

 

Afternoon Skywagon  

 

You kind of need to define the bike & ABS system to give a complete answer but on the BMW's that check the system voltage before engine start (like the 1100 ABS II) a simple key-off  then restart will usually reset the ABS & clear the problem.

 

On a bike like the 1150 with I-ABS  system those check voltage after engine start so they don't default at low starting voltage (they might save a low voltage code but that really means nothing).

 

Then you have the very early (outlier)  1150 GS as that is an 1150 bike  but has the 1100 era ABS II brake system.

 

Every once in a while a  rider can do things just right (or just wrong) & get a full ABS system default, but there is a way to clear the full default using the ABS switch & grounding an under-seat diagnostic connector pin.  

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

“Then you have the very early (outlier)  1150 GS as that is an 1150 bike  but has the 1100 era ABS II brake system.“

 

That’s my 2001 1150GS. 

[Skywagon]

thanks guys....smarter now than I was an hour ago

[roger 04 rt]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Roger

 

That is good improvement, please keep us updated on how it performs in the future.

 

I haven't ever takin the time or effort to record all the data that you have as I just run the reclaim process twice then go with that.

 

About all I see when I run the recondition with a 3 amp +/- load down to 10 v is that I usually gain about 1 hour of rundown time on the 2nd rundown so I know I have gained that much on capacity.

 

Removing (or just disconnecting) the PC 680  battery's  for winter storage has worked good for me & that gives the first post-storage charge a pretty good hit of current.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi DR,

I’m glad that I saw a big change in the initial transient dip, that was most important to me.

 

According to Odyssey, the PC680 likes a good hit of current. Now, even if I discharge the battery a bit by cranking, upon recharge it goes to 10 amps immediately and then starts coming down. And I’ve noticed that the hit of current is higher if you keep the voltage at the battery terminals at 14.7-ish volts. A volt lower than that and you see less than half the current. The SAE connector and high gauge pigtail is undersized for the job. At 10 amps I see a 3V drop from voltage source to battery terminals. I dialed up the voltage to keep the highest current flowing.  

RB

[roger 04 rt]

Here’s something I’ve not tried yet that came from Odyssey tech support via GS Addict for further desulfation:

 

”After fully charging the battery, charge at .05 C with a current limited power supply. For the PC680 around 800ma 18-20v. Do for 24hrs - battery voltage should rise to 16.5 - 17v for at least 2 hours. You will hear a faint bubbling noise while this is happening. As the supply is current limited, there is no risk of thermal runaway.”

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Here’s something I’ve not tried yet that came from Odyssey tech support via GS Addict:

 

”Charge at .05 C with a current current limited power supply. For the PC680 around 800ma 18-20v. Do for 24hrs - battery voltage should rise to 16.5 - 17v for at least 2 hours. You will hear a faint bubbling noise while this is happening. As the supply is current limited, there is no risk of thermal runaway.”

 

 

Afternoons Roger

 

This would definitely need the battery disconnected from the motorcycle electrical system to prevent damage.

 

I never like to hear any bubbling on a non vented battery but if Odyssey says it's OK they must be good with it.

 

 

 

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

This also from Odyssey:

 

”For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row frequently) regular use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season and/or a disconnect switch.The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode). Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77°F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first.”

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

This also from Odyssey:

 

”For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row frequently) regular use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season and/or a disconnect switch.The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode). Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77°F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first.”

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Yes, those Odyssey battery's have a great shelf life, I store at much cooler temps than 77°f   so usually  see  12.7 or higher in the spring.

 

I usually disconnect the (+) battery cable, clean the battery top (to prevent potential current flow across the battery top) ,  then fully charge to 100% SOC, then after a day or so measure the battery static voltage & write that on the battery top. I then re-measure battery voltage in the spring after storage & compare to pre-storage voltage.  

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Thanks DR,

I’m convinced now that it is better to store a PC680 open circuit than leave it on a trickle charger.

 

What do you think about the AGM battery (not sure who made it) in my 2017 Wethead. Could I use the same desulfation procedure? Would it be better to let it sit open circuit than trickle charge when stored at 90-100 degrees in FL?

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Thanks DR,

I’m convinced now that it is better to store a PC680 open circuit than leave it on a trickle charger.

 

What do you think about the AGM battery (not sure who made it) in my 2017 Wethead. Could I use the same desulfation procedure? Would it be better to let it sit open circuit than trickle charge when stored at 90-100 degrees in FL?

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

You know I have thought about that a few times but am hesitant to try that on a good condition AGM. It might help but then again if done incorrectly it might do more harm than good.

 

I guess we need to find the tec support of a non-Odyssey battery to see what they say about it.---  Maybe Odyssey tec support could shed some light on (if) the procedure is universal across all AGM batteries or just theirs.

[roger 04 rt]

I’m going to call Odyssey in Monday. I have a similar question about a standby battery for the Primary Flight Display in an aircraft. It is configured for 24V by using a dozen Enersys Cyclon Cells. There was recently an issue and we’d like to try a recovery procedure. So I’ll ask about that and non-Odyssey AGM batteries.

 

I've been leaving my 2017 on a similar setup to that which cooked my 1150GS battery. 😳

[roger 04 rt]

On 8/10/2019 at 5:15 PM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

You know I have thought about that a few times but am hesitant to try that on a good condition AGM. It might help but then again if done incorrectly it might do more harm than good.

 

I guess we need to find the tec support of a non-Odyssey battery to see what they say about it.---  Maybe Odyssey tec support could shed some light on (if) the procedure is universal across all AGM batteries or just theirs.

 

Morning DR,

I just got off the phone with Odyssey Tech Support. The recovery procedure is valid for the PC680, other Odyssey Batteries and the Enersys Cyclon batteries. It is safe and effective for two reasons: 1) the pc680 uses pure lead plates, and 2) it is designed as a dual use battery—starting and deep discharge. Because of that they cannot make a recommendation about other batteries, in fact a deep discharge may hasten sulfation on others.

 

Also, they told me that the high voltage procedure that I outlined earlier in the thread is not recommended.

[dirtrider]

42 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

 

Morning DR,

I just got off the phone with Odyssey Tech Support. The recovery procedure is valid for the PC680, other Odyssey Batteries and the Enersys Cyclon batteries. It is safe and effective for two reasons: 1) the pc680 uses pure lead plates, and 2) it is designed as a dual use battery—starting and deep discharge. Because of that they cannot make a recommendation about other batteries, in fact a deep discharge may hasten sulfation on others.

 

Also, they told me that the high voltage procedure that I outlined earlier in the thread is not recommended.

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Thanks for the update, that does make sense as most 'starting' batteries do not take well to deep discharges while most deep discharge utility/marine/trolling motor/power supply type batteries usually don't have a problem with the big discharge/re-charge swings.

 

It also makes sense about the "dual use battery" thing (I didn't know that) as I always though the PC 680 should have a higher CCA rating than it does. Looks like a little peak CCA was sacrificed for a longer general sustained discharge ability.

[roger 04 rt]

Hi DR,

One more thing that she told me was that pure lead is much easier to desulfate. For other batteries that lack pure lead plates, sulfation can be permanent.

[roger 04 rt]

Oh, and if you suspect another brand battery (e.g. my 2017RT) of being sulfated, then before chucking the battery you can try a discharge/recharge cycle. 

 

And they confirmed that 80% and above on amp-hours is considered an acceptable battery, after reconditioning. 

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Oh, and if you suspect another brand battery (e.g. my 2017RT) of being sulfated, then before chucking the battery you can try a discharge/recharge cycle. 

 

And they confirmed that 80% and above on amp-hours is considered an acceptable battery, after reconditioning. 

 

 

Evening Roger

 

That 80% and above on amp-hours output is not a big deal to me as we don't, as a rule, use the PC 680 as a long term power provider.

 

What I wonder is how that that 80% effects the CCA. It's the CCA performance that we deal with on the BMW boxer bikes as the heavier motor oil & the 360° compression strokes requires a fairly high amperage output for a short time period to crank the engine with authority while retaining  decent cranking system voltage.

 

I have an old 18 hp (was when new anyhow) tractor that I use for trimming & other light chores. That tractor has a PC 680 that spent 4 years in an 1150RT, then a couple of years in an old beater 1100RT, then was installed in that tractor (battery is about 10 years old now). That tractor can sit for  months or more between uses without any maintainer charger on the battery (almost no patristic draw on the battery). The charging system is only a couple of amps @  13.7-13.9 volts so I'm sure that battery is heavily sulfated  but it still spins the engine over with enough gusto to start it even in cold weather.  

Every time I start that tractor I wonder how long it will go until it gives up.   

 

One of these days I will put my 3 amp load on that battery to see  if it will even go 3 hours down to 10v (I kind of think that it won't).

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Hi DR,

Agreed, if you ever get the time it would be interesting to see how much your very old, often undercharged PC680, could be reconditioned.

[roger 04 rt]

Last week, I started to see the same behavior that I reported at the start of the thread: ABS errors and dips in the starting voltage. The battery seems fine, as it did at the beginning, and the bike cranked well too. I considered trying reconditioning one more time but ran out of energy for the project. I bought and installed a new PC680, which will be a good match with the Vreg mod to 14.6V and my AGM charger.

 

After I installed the new battery, I called Odyssey to ask how to identify the manufacturing date. It's the 4 digit code in the white box, on top of the battery. The code is 1111 which means November 2011. I had thought I was working on a 4-5 year old battery that turned out to be nearly 8 years old. For the first 6 years it was charged at a low voltage, so I'd say 8 years is pretty good lifetime.

 

 

Here is the plot of starting with the new battery. Note that it dips to about 10.6V for a few hundred milliseconds and then cranks at 11V--much better than the reconditioned results from earlier in the thread. I've added this graph so that others have it as a reference point. Early in the thread you can see my sulfated battery, middle of the thread an 8 year-old reconditioned battery and below, a new PC680.

 

Bottom line: the problems were the battery, the starter is fine.

 

 

[dirtrider]

16 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Last week, I started to see the same behavior that I reported at the start of the thread: ABS errors and dips in the starting voltage. The battery seems fine, as it did at the beginning, and the bike would cranks well too. I considered trying reconditioning one more time but ran out of energy for the project. I bought and installed a new PC680, which will be a good match with the Vreg mod to 14.6V and my AGM charger.

 

After I installed the new battery, I called Odyssey to ask how to identify the manufacturing date. It's the 4 digit code in the white box, on top of the battery. The code is 1111 which means November 2011. I had thought I was working on a 4-5 year old battery that turned out to be nearly 8 years old. For the first 6 years it was charged at a low voltage, so I'd say 8 years is pretty good.

 

 

 

Here is the plot of starting with the new battery. Note that it dips to about 10.6V for a few hundred milliseconds and then cranks at 11V--much better than the reconditioned results from earlier in the thread. I've added this graph so that others have it as a reference point. Early in the thread you can see my sulfated battery, middle of the thread an 8 year-old reconditioned battery and below, a new PC680.

 

Bottom line: the problems were the battery, the starter is fine.

 

 

 

Morning Roger

 

Thanks for the  update.

 

That is good news on the starter being good.

 

 

[dave_a]

Roger, there's a long history of boaters buying numerous expensive AGM batteries to supply their "house" needs. $250+ each, 4 to 6 qty. Instead of 8 year life like a lead acid battery they get half that service life out of a battery costing twice as much. Usually traced back to not upgrading the charging system for one optimised for AGM. I personally may look into the regulator upgrade as my ABS lights like to flash until I restart after running a while. Have a no name AGM battery in my R1100R.

[dirtrider]

15 minutes ago, dave_a said:

Roger, there's a long history of boaters buying numerous expensive AGM batteries to supply their "house" needs. $250+ each, 4 to 6 qty. Instead of 8 year life like a lead acid battery they get half that service life out of a battery costing twice as much. Usually traced back to not upgrading the charging system for one optimised for AGM. I personally may look into the regulator upgrade as my ABS lights like to flash until I restart after running a while. Have a no name AGM battery in my R1100R.

 

 

Morning Dave

 

You might not want to go with a full 14.6v regulator when using a standard AGM battery in a hot motorcycle environment with the battery shrouded under the fuel tank above a very hot engine. As the battery temperature increases the needed charging voltage goes down.  (Odyssey has a temperature vs charging voltage chart on their web site) --This is for the Odyssey (remember) that takes a slightly higher charging voltage than a standard AGM.

 

Now shorter rides in a cool climate might need more charging voltage as the inverse happens so a cool/cold AGM needs a slightly higher charging voltage.

 

On my 1200RT I have the Odyssey 680 (that takes slightly higher charging voltage than a standard AGM), that bike puts out a very consistent 14.20 to 14.21 charging voltage & it gets to & maintains the PC 680 at 100% SOC. The 1200RT battery isn't even under the fuel tank or directly above the most engine heat (but is still in a hot environment so battery gets pretty warm). I do ride this bike in cooler (actually cold) weather but haven't ever measured battery temps under those conditions, I would imagine on short rides in cold weather the 14.2 is on the low side for PC 680 to get to 100% SOC  (but the battery still holds up very well).

 

Just something to ponder___

[dave_a]

Thanks DR, I'll take that under advisement. Maybe the middle ground is an AGM spec trickle charger to offset clock & Kisan. Thanks for your insight.

[roger 04 rt]

Morning DR,

Isn’t the regulator in the oilhead temperature compensated? It seems from my GS-911 logs that it is.

[Paul De]

1 hour ago, dave_a said:

Thanks DR, I'll take that under advisement. Maybe the middle ground is an AGM spec trickle charger to offset clock & Kisan. Thanks for your insight.

 

I replaced the OEM flooded battery with an very inexpensive AGM battery on my R1100RT about 15 years ago and did not change the regulator ($50-60 delivered).   I replace them at 5 years, but they could go 6 or 7 years, by using an AGM compatible charger /maintainer when the bike sits for more than a week, or during winter storage. When I rode that bike daily during the riding season I would put it on the smart charger about once a month just to be sure it was taken to a full charge.  To be fair I have only ridden that bike in the more temperate climes of the upper Midwest, but I think others have used a similar low cost AGM battery hailing from much hotter climes with good success as well.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, roger 04 rt said:

Morning DR,

Isn’t the regulator in the oilhead temperature compensated? It seems from my GS-911 logs that it is.

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Good question, a guess would be no it is not specifically temperature compensated but I can't say that as fact. If they are temperature compensated  then usually  the voltage spec includes the temperature that spec was derived at. (But BMW is not always up  front with all the facts).

 

I'm pretty sure that my  1200 isn't temperature compensated as it is pretty steady at 14.2v regardless of the temperature. It will sometimes vary a bit due to battery load or battery charge state but for the most part pretty steady.

 

This is a good question & something we should probably  look into & understand.  (I'll see if I have an old regulator floating around my shop that I can dissect without damage, it shroud be pretty evident if it has temperature compensation thermistor circuitry)

 

The old lead/acid batteries on the BMW 1100/1150 era were more voltage tolerant than newer AGM or GEL batteries but it is still possible there was some sort of built in temp compensation.  

 

Can you tell anything on your 14.6v regulator? On a real hot motorcycle in hot weather it should charge at well below 14.6v if it is temp compensated.

 

  

[roger 04 rt]

Morning DR,

When I’ve had the regulators out they appear to be laser trimmed hybrid circuits on ceramic substrates which gives them a couple options for temperature compensation. My measurement data suggests thermal compensation but I don’t have a spec sheet on the regulator. 

[roger 04 rt]

For anyone still interested in this topic, I wanted to update the thread.

 

I'll digress for a moment. My 2011 Mercedes has always been a hard starter and I've had 4 batteries in 9 years. The charging system is one of those as needed systems which means it's not always charging the battery. The cranking has been slow for the past 6 years, so I've kept the battery on a tender and that seemed to do the trick. A couple weeks ago the slow starting became no-starting, barely a click. The battery checked out (as it often has in the past). After a little debugging, it was clear the starter was bad and so I replaced it, a real knuckle-buster. It now starts better than new and I've stopped using the tender. I should have known.

 

That brings me to my '01 R1150GS. If you had followed the thread, you'll have seen that I reconditioned its PC680 but after a few weeks I replaced it. Fast forward to this summer. The starter still didn't sound great and occasionally the bike was stumbling for a moment just after the first start of the day. Having lived with a bum starter in the car for years, I decided to replace the R1150's starter with no further tests. Fool me once ...

 

Beemerboneyard delivered my a new starter the next day and I installed it in about 15 minutes. Not only does it start a bit faster and it reaches a smooth idle directly after starting. The reason is that the Motronic in the R1150--and probably the R1100 too--fiddles with timing to help it recover from a hard start, something I've known for several years. That's what caused the stumble for a moment after starting. My original 19 year-old starter seemed ok but it must've had a high initial draw on the battery, glitching its voltage, glitching the Motronic and causing it to fiddle the timing.

 

It would surprise me if there weren't many other bikes with seemly good starters that would benefit from replacement--something to keep in mind the next time you troubleshoot hard starting.

[Mrclubike]

The PC680 in my R65  is almost 6 years old and has traveled over 50000 miles and still going strong

But it is feed a steady diet of 14.7 volts from a Delco voltage reg (converted to B circuit) and all LED lighting