Starter or Battery Redux

[roger 04 rt]

Back when I had my red ‘04RT (miss that bike), I spent a lot of time working out what it takes to get a dual-spark Oilhead to start in less than a second when cold:

 

Fast forward to the past week: my 2001 R1150GS is turning over a bit slower than usual and takes a full second to start first time in the morning, and the starter sounds a little rough. That’s not bad but it was faster a couple years ago. On top of that I’ve had three occurrences where I get ABS errors that don’t clear after riding off (blinking in tandem sometimes or both flashing alternately other times). The ABS errors can be cleared by restarting the bike.

 

Yesterday I hooked up my GS-911, selected all realtime values, put the 911 in turbo mode for fast data collection, and collected a realtime log. The log confirmed it was starting okay but the voltage readings went 13V to 12.6V at key on (that’s fine) and then to about 8V for the first couple samples when I hit the starter. The 8V dip explains the slightly slower start and the ABS errors (btw, an 8V dip on a dual spark would really mess up the start).

 

The question is, do I have a bad battery or starter or something else?

 

The bike has 42,000 miles on it, the starter is original and has never been serviced, and the bell housing area shows a lot of clutch dust. The battery is a PC680, several years old, but well maintained and still holding 100% SOC even after the surface change is bled off by turning on the headlight for 30 seconds. The cables to the battery, ground, alternator and starter are tight and clean as a whistle.

 

I hate throwing parts at a problem so I’m going to begin by servicing the starter, we’ll see ...

[wbw6cos]

You could also get the battery load tested.  A bad starter can drag down a good battery.  While you clean out the starter, get the battery tested and try to eliminate it as the leading culprit with your issue.

On my 2000 C, I had a fairly decent PC680battery (only a few months old.)  I rode it daily, year round, and it in the summer months, when I went to start it over time it began to sound a little more sluggish.  I thought I had a bad battery, so I took it to get load tested where I bought it.  It failed.  They gave me new one under warranty.  

 

Once the new battery was installed, my cranks still did not sound right.  I never bothered servicing the starter; I just went ahead and replaced it.  There was a fair amount of dust in there, though.   I intended to get the starter tested to confirm, but with the new battery and starter installed the issue went away.  It was a world of difference in cranking; very noticeable.  I wish I would have had another C to do a side-by-side cranking comparison in the first place.  I will eventually look into doing some sort of re-man on the old starter for later use.   

 

For the record, I had about 110,000 +/- miles on the original starter, which is why I did not hesitate in replacing it.  I average 4-5 years on my PC 680 batteries, keeping it on Optimate Plus tender for most of the time it sits.  It gets parked outside at work in the winter, so I thought it would benefit the battery life when parked overnight at home.  Now, with the new RT in the garage, the R1200C sits.  I try to switch them out every other week, but the C is at oil change mileage (114.000) and needs a new rear tire, fuel filter change........blah, blah, blah.  Maybe next weekend, right? 

[lkraus]

I'd assume a weak battery until proven otherwise.  Easy and free to check. Hook up some jumper cables to a good battery (engine off if in another vehicle) and see what the cranking voltage is and how fast the starter spins. You might even disconnect the bike's battery entirely, just be sure the jumper cable clamps are well insulated.

[roger 04 rt]

Thanks guys for the inputs. It's tempting to suspect the battery but the starter sounds terrible to my ear. I will try to get a load test but I'm out in the middle of nowhere as far as service goes. 

 

Although I'm tempted to just replace the starter as I eventually did on the '04RT, I'd like to see if a clean and lube makes any difference.

 

Here's a better picture of what's going on.

 

 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Back when I had my red ‘04RT (miss that bike), I spent a lot of time working out what it takes to get a dual-spark Oilhead to start in less than a second when cold:

 

Fast forward to the past week: my 2001 R1150GS is turning over a bit slower than usual and takes a full second to start first time in the morning, and the starter sounds a little rough. That’s not bad but it was faster a couple years ago. On top of that I’ve had three occurrences where I get ABS errors that don’t clear after riding off (blinking in tandem sometimes or both flashing alternately other times). The ABS errors can be cleared by restarting the bike.

 

Yesterday I hooked up my GS-911, selected all realtime values, put the 911 in turbo mode for fast data collection, and collected a realtime log. The log confirmed it was starting okay but the voltage readings went 13V to 12.6V at key on (that’s fine) and then to about 8V for the first couple samples when I hit the starter. The 8V dip explains the slightly slower start and the ABS errors (btw, an 8V dip on a dual spark would really mess up the start).

 

The question is, do I have a bad battery or starter or something else?

 

The bike has 42,000 miles on it, the starter is original and has never been serviced, and the bell housing area shows a lot of clutch dust. The battery is a PC680, several years old, but well maintained and still holding 100% SOC even after the surface change is bled off by turning on the headlight for 30 seconds. The cables to the battery, ground, alternator and starter are tight and clean as a whistle.

 

I hate throwing parts at a problem so I’m going to begin by servicing the starter, we’ll see ...

 

Morning Roger

 

It could be battery, could be voltage drop in the battery cables, could be starter drag issues, or could be a mix of the above.

 

In most cases that I have seen in cold engine cranking voltage drop in the 1150 with a PC680 it  is the battery not performing to 100%. Statically they usually show a  100% SOC when checked, & will easily pass a battery load test but the battery is just not conditioned to 100% capacity. (older stored-bike  PC680 battery's seem to do that for some reason)

 

You might try a simple (cold start) jump from another small battery vehicle (like another motorcycle or a lawn tractor), if the system voltage THEN stays above 10 volts then do a  battery run-down & recondition (you know that drill).

 

If the jumping doesn't raise the cold cranking voltage then do a battery cable voltage drop test & possibly remove the starter & clean/inspect the innards.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Morning DR,

I can do the cable drop voltage test but don’t have another small battery. I reconditioned the battery two years ago and could do the same again. Still at the top of mind is the sound of the starter, very labored and rough sounding ...

[Craig G.]

15 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Still at the top of mind is the sound of the starter, very labored and rough sounding ...

 

Been there... the noise is a key indicator.  Dislodged shield causing the armature to short out (growl) intermittently.  The starter is essentially fighting itself and sucking up voltage in doing so.

 

Many just replace... I chose on two occasions to remove the shield, clean out the factory lube and apply dry lube to the reduction gears/shafts.   

 

Make sure to check the magnets...

[dirtrider]

39 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Morning DR,

I can do the cable drop voltage test but don’t have another small battery. I reconditioned the battery two years ago and could do the same again. Still at the top of mind is the sound of the starter, very labored and rough sounding ...

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Does the starter sound labored even on a hot engine re-start? If so then very possibly the starter reduction gear shield dragging on the armature windings.

 

As a rule the starter shield thing will act up both hot & cold whereas a low battery capacity will usually only effect cold cranking. (8 volts cranking can make a starter sound weak & noisy)

 

If you have your equipment with you then definitely try a battery re-claim. That does take some time but as you know you don't have to be with it the entire time.  

[Jim Moore]

I had a similar problem recently. It was the starter. Buy an Amazon starter and install it. IF it's not fixed you have a spare starter.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Discount-Starter-Alternator-Replacement-Motorcycle/dp/B001V6QWCW/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=r1100+starter&qid=1564936746&s=gateway&sr=8-4

[lkraus]

Roger reports slow starting AND wonky ABS, both problems that are known to be caused by a weak battery.  The battery is easily tested, probably with materials on hand or for free at most auto parts stores. If the battery is not the problem, he has only spent a little time.  Potentially, two problems corrected with a single solution.

 

Automatically replacing the starter might help the starting problem.  If a new starter does not help, he is out the cost of a starter (usually not returnable),  the time to find and maybe ship the new starter, the shelf space to store the spare starter, he still has an ABS problem and may still need a new battery.

 

"Troubleshooting" by replacing the untested starter with a new one is the definition of throwing parts at a problem.

[roger 04 rt]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Does the starter sound labored even on a hot engine re-start? If so then very possibly the starter reduction gear shield dragging on the armature windings.

 

As a rule the starter shield thing will act up both hot & cold whereas a low battery capacity will usually only effect cold cranking. (8 volts cranking can make a starter sound weak & noisy)

 

If you have your equipment with you then definitely try a battery re-claim. That does take some time but as you know you don't have to be with it the entire time.  

 

Hi DR,

It starts so fast when hot that I can’t recall what it sounds like. The voltage is only around 8V for half a second, then its 10V for a bit. I didn’t realize what a low voltage crank would sound like, thanks.

 

I’ve had the shield problem twice before on the ‘04. This one doesn’t sound like it.

 

If I try the battery reclaim I’ve got some resistors that I used before.

[roger 04 rt]

2 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

I had a similar problem recently. It was the starter. Buy an Amazon starter and install it. IF it's not fixed you have a spare starter.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Discount-Starter-Alternator-Replacement-Motorcycle/dp/B001V6QWCW/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=r1100+starter&qid=1564936746&s=gateway&sr=8-4

 

Thanks Jim. I’m tempted but will take a couple other steps first.

[roger 04 rt]

53 minutes ago, lkraus said:

Roger reports slow starting AND wonky ABS, both problems that are known to be caused by a weak battery.  The battery is easily tested, probably with materials on hand or for free at most auto parts stores. If the battery is not the problem, he has only spent a little time.  Potentially, two problems corrected with a single solution.

 

Automatically replacing the starter might help the starting problem.  If a new starter does not help, he is out the cost of a starter (usually not returnable),  the time to find and maybe ship the new starter, the shelf space to store the spare starter, he still has an ABS problem and may still need a new battery.

 

"Troubleshooting" by replacing the untested starter with a new one is the definition of throwing parts at a problem.

 

Good point about the slower starting (although many would think 1-1 1/2 seconds was good) AND wonky ABS. But a large starter glitch could bring down the voltage too.

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

 

Hi DR,

It starts so fast when hot that I can’t recall what it sounds like. The voltage is only around 8V for half a second, then its 10V for a bit. I didn’t realize what a low voltage crank would sound like, thanks.

 

I’ve had the shield problem twice before on the ‘04. This one doesn’t sound like it.

 

If I try the battery reclaim I’ve got some resistors that I used before.

 

"But a large starter glitch could bring down the voltage too"

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Pull the #5 fuse on a hot engine to see how it cranks hot. (that will allow it to crank but not fire off)

 

Battery re-claim is a good (no cost ) verification test that might yield an answer. (jumping from a 2nd small battery is usually a better test though)

 

Definitely a loose starter reduction gear shield can lower the cranking voltage as when it comes  loose it usually wears the ends of the armature windings then shorts those out to the metal shield.  But that is usually not a hot/cold issue as it shorts both hot or cold.

[Miguel!]

What's "battery reclaim" or "battery reconditioning" mean? and why do it and how do you know when to do it? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

Cheers. Miguel

[SAS]

13 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Morning DR,

I can do the cable drop voltage test but don’t have another small battery. I reconditioned the battery two years ago and could do the same again. Still at the top of mind is the sound of the starter, very labored and rough sounding ...

 

 

Roger I have lived with this Low Voltage ABS fault  issue for the 4 years of ownership of my R1100R.   Most of the time I just do a restart while I am rolling down the road and when I come to the first stop and do a rollaway then it does the bite and all is well.  Also after it warms for about 30seconds to a minute I can also shut down and do a restart once the batt voltage is up to snuff and that works also.     But...…………..  a labored and rough sounding starter must be a new issue for you and needs to be addressed.  Mine still to this day when cold goes er, er, er, er before it starts.  But when hot boy it lights right off almost instantly with no ABS issues. 

[dirtrider]

17 hours ago, Miguel! said:

What's "battery reclaim" or "battery reconditioning" mean? and why do it and how do you know when to do it? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

Cheers. Miguel

 

Morning Miguel

 

"Battery reconditioning" is, in a nutshell,   running the battery charge down to a certain level of charge (usually in the 10v 'under load' range) then re-charging using a very specific & controlled voltage & amperage input sequence to restore full (or nearly full) plate capacity. (restores battery to full output)

 

On certain vehicle batteries (like the Odyssey) they can be reclaimed if not too far gone & not too sulfated for an extended time period.

 

Long vehicle storage  with  the battery hooked to the vehicle electrical system (parasitic drain), or storage with the battery on a non approved battery tender can cause the battery to sulfate the internal plates. If minor that doesn't outright kill the battery but it can significantly lower the battery's FULL amperage output. (or put another way can lower a 18 CCA battery to be a 12 CCA battery)

 

A sulfated battery can still show good voltage retention & even pass a quick (handheld)  battery load test but it will be lacking full CCA when needed for vehicle starting. 

 

On the Odyssey web site there is even a (verified) reclamation process that is on their web site.    

   http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEY_Battery_Reconditioning_Charge_Procedure.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

I had a chance to make several measurements this morning.

 

1) I pulled the fuel pump relay rather than F5 so I didn’t lose my adaptive values. The cranked and measured the battery voltage. Although there is a half-second drop to 8V, it will then crank for 20 seconds (as long as I cranked) at 10.6V.

 

2) While cranking, the voltage drop from battery (-) to engine case is 100 mV

 

3)The voltage drop during cranking measured from battery (+) to the stud on the starter was 125 mV. 

 

The cable drops mean their resistance is a few milliohms which seems fine. 

[roger 04 rt]

I don’t think I’m any closer to knowing if it’s the starter or battery. But it’s not the connections.

 

I’ll clean the starter, rerun the test and then recondition the battery. 

[roger 04 rt]

The starter’s out, the drive end was disassembled, cleaned, lubed (not the solenoid) and reassembled. It was pretty dirty and the planetary gears and nose bushing were dry but there’s no smoking gun and the gear grease cover was tight and intact. 

 

Tomorrow I’ll get at the back end

[Lowndes]

Hey, Roger,

 

Looks like you have a 13.5v voltage regulator.  AGM batteries need 14.5v to charge 100% (they only get to about 80% with 13.5v).  AGM's last longer and the Motronics like it better when it's fully charged.  It might be part of your issue.

 

EME has the replacement 14.5v regulators ($39) and its an easy swap after the tank is off.  You don't even have to remove the alternator.

 

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BOSCH-Voltage-Regulator-BMW-R-K-p/boalt-reg365.htm

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Lowndes,

Very good points. To jog your memory, it was back in 2014 that I had a slow starting ‘04RT. I made about a dozen improvements to its electrical system but one of the big discoveries was that the PC680 wasn’t being fully charged by the stock VR/alternator—a controversial idea at the time. I ended up reconditioning the battery (with help from Odyssey) and installing a power diode in the VR to boost the charging voltage. A stock VR and diode creates a 14.7V regulator which is even a bit better than the 14.5V replacement VR.

 

However, your post has made me rethink the current situation with this ‘01GS which has had the VR diode mod for a year (take another look at the graph).

 

—June 2017: ‘01 GS purchased stock 14V VR, reconditioned the PC680 per Odyssey instructions.

—Summer 2017: Used approved charger to top up PC680 after every ride (a pain).

—Winter 2017: For 7 months, the PC680 was on an unapproved trickle charger for 6 hours, once a week.

—Summer 2018: Noticed after taking the bike out of storage that it was starting slightly slower than the prior year, assumed it was storage/gasoline. Modified the VR with a diode to boost charging voltage, and occasionally used an approved charger. Rode all summer with the boosted VR but ignored the fact it was taking a full second or second and a half to start.

—Winter 2018: Used an approved charger

 

Looking back at that sequence I’m beginning to think that my Winter 2017 unapproved trickle charger sulfated the PC680 somewhat. I’m going to recondition it after I finish up the starter and get it back in the bike.

 

Without a GS-911 with its ability to capture transients I’d never have been able to see the half-second dip to 8V. 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, roger 04 rt said:

Hi Lowndes,

Very good points. To jog your memory, it was back in 2014 that I had a slow starting ‘04RT. I made about a dozen improvements to its electrical system but one of the big discoveries was that the PC680 wasn’t being fully charged by the stock VR/alternator—a controversial idea at the time. I ended up reconditioning the battery (with help from Odyssey) and installing a power diode in the VR to boost the charging voltage. A stock VR and diode creates a 14.7V regulator which is even a bit better than the 14.5V replacement VR.

 

However, your post has made me rethink the current situation with this ‘01GS which has had the VR diode mod for a year (take another look at the graph).

 

—June 2017: ‘01 GS purchased stock 14V VR, reconditioned the PC680 per Odyssey instructions.

—Summer 2017: Used approved charger to top up PC680 after every ride (a pain).

—Winter 2017: For 7 months, the PC680 was on an unapproved trickle charger for 6 hours, once a week.

—Summer 2018: Noticed after taking the bike out of storage that it was starting slightly slower than the prior year, assumed it was storage/gasoline. Modified the VR with a diode to boost charging voltage, and occasionally used an approved charger. Rode all summer with the boosted VR but ignored the fact it was taking a full second or second and a half to start.

—Winter 2018: Used an approved charger

 

Looking back at that sequence I’m beginning to think that my Winter 2017 unapproved trickle charger sulfated the PC680 somewhat. I’m going to recondition it after I finish up the starter and get it back in the bike.

 

Without a GS-911 with its ability to capture transients I’d never have been able to see the half-second dip to 8V. 

 

Morning Roger

 

Your mentioning 100% SOC in your first post had me discounting a low charging voltage as you sure can't get to 100% SOC with low charging voltage.

 

The thing that bothers me the most is that 8v first cranking voltage, even though short term, that  first intake stroke or so is taking in normal starting air volume  but not nearly as much fuel injector spray as needed  due to lower injector voltage.

 

I have used the PC 680 for many years now on all my BMW boxer bikes & it does suffer slightly from a low alternator output voltage but I usually get decent cold engine fire-off in warmer summer ambient.   Using 20w50 oil WILL get me slow cranking in sub 40° ambient temps but that is expected.

 

In my early PC 680 days we knew nothing about approved chargers or approved maintenance charging algorithms or low alternator voltage output so we just used what we had (mostly Battery Tender 2 amp tenders). Even using those I didn't have a lot of  PC 680 issues, BUT, I  never left the battery on the tender after it reached full charge & I always stored (off season) with the battery disconnected   (PC 680 has an excellent storage discharge rate as long as it doesn't have a parasitic drain it will go a full winter storage with very little loss).

 

The riders that I knew that had PC 680 storage (low battery output issues)  were using  the (non approved) tenders for long term storage & leaving them on the (incorrect-for-PC 680)  float for long periods. I still think that it is/was the incorrect float voltage/amperage that was lowering the PC 680 capacity not the actual short term top-off charging using an incorrect charger. My old Battery Tender actually floated the battery at a lower voltage than the 100% SOC PC 680 just sitting on the shelf so that thing couldn't help but to sulfate the darn thing in float mode.

 

I will be very curious to see what your initial cold cranking voltage is after you do a  full recondition (sometimes it takes 2 back to back  reconditions to fully restore a PC 680).

 

The new water cooled 1200 bikes went to a compression release cam deal so they do crank up smartly but that was probably more due to the present starter design than anything else.

[roger 04 rt]

Good Morning DR,

 

Winter of 2017 I used an old Schumacher charger and a weekly timer. What I’ve never checked is: how much leakage is there back through the Schumacher when my timer goes off. I may have been charging the battery for 6 hours a week but had a few milliamperes of leakage for the other 6 days and 18 hours. Thank would be a worst case scenario for sulfating the battery.

 

Winter of 2018 I used an approved Minn Kota charger that drops offline after charging and then monitors voltage until it needs topping up.

 

I’m going to go dig out that Schumacher and see what the leakage is like.

RB

[dirtrider]

11 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Good Morning DR,

 

Winter of 2017 I used an old Schumacher charger and a weekly timer. What I’ve never checked is: how much leakage is there back through the Schumacher when my timer goes off. I may have been charging the battery for 6 hours a week but had a few milliamperes of leakage for the other 6 days and 18 hours. Thank would be a worst case scenario for sulfating the battery.

 

Winter of 2018 I used an approved Minn Kota charger that drops offline after charging and then monitors voltage until it needs topping up.

 

I’m going to go dig out that Schumacher and see what the leakage is like.

RB

 

Morning Roger

 

In that (Winter of 2017) did you leave the battery connected to the motorcycle's electrical system?

 

Your 1150GS probably has around a constant key-off 2.7mA parasitic drain so a once a week charge is probably toggling that battery across the sulfation  zone.

 

See how it does after a full recondition (that should tell us something).

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Dr,

Yes I left it connected but pulled two fuses so the draw was under a milliamp. The Schumacher draws about 2.5 mA when AC is removed by the starter so I was running a sulfate building cycle.

 

I’ve reconditioned the starter but I’m wondering whether the shaft under the bendix drive is lubricated and with what. I don’t want lube fling at the clutch.  

[dirtrider]

42 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Hi Dr,

Yes I left it connected but pulled two fuses so the draw was under a milliamp. The Schumacher draws about 2.5 mA when AC is removed by the starter so I was running a sulfate building cycle.

 

I’ve reconditioned the starter but I’m wondering whether the shaft under the bendix drive is lubricated and with what. I don’t want lube fling at the clutch.  

 

 

Afternoon Roger

 

If you are worried about fling-off then use a dry lube but allow it to flash off for a while before reinstalling the starter.

 

If you feel like taking it apart then use a very thin layer of moly lube (a little goes a long ways with that stuff so just use a very thin layer then wipe any excess off. 

 

If you have a starter shop handy then you might ask if they will sell/give you just a dab of starter shaft-to-drive  lube.

[roger 04 rt]

The starter has been cleaned, lubed and reinstalled. It didn’t look too bad and there were no red flags. It has the glued magnets (ticking time bomb?) but the magnets and grease cover are firmly in place. I’ll let it sit overnight and see what the GS-911 log looks like in the morning. 

[roger 04 rt]

Yesterday I downloaded the latest GS-911 software for PC and updated the GS-911 Wifi firmware. Unfortunately the realtime value sampling rate has dropped from 350 mS to about 3 seconds! I've contacted Tech Support but they're in South Africa so I'm unable to log effectively at the moment. Does anyone know how to go back a revision?

 

There are some things I know. The cranking voltage after the starter clean & lube, with the fuel pump relay pulled, is still about 10.5 volts, same as before. A friend (GS Addict) with the same bike and a very well maintained PC680 measured his cranking voltage at 11.4 volts for 12 seconds. Also, when I went to record realtime values with the GS-911, twice it dropped off. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the connectivity drop-off is most likely due to the battery voltage dipping when I press the starter--meaning I still have a problem.

 

Just as a recap, the bike turns over very well and will crank for a long time. I just have this transient voltage dip that makes the bike take a couple more revolutions of the engine to start.

 

The next step will be to try reconditioning the battery and see what improvements that yields.

[roger 04 rt]

My first discharge cycle yielded about 13 amp-hours out of 16 amp-hours for a new battery. That is about 80% of new capacity. Odyssey considers this a failed/worn-out battery. I’m recharging it now. It will be interesting to see if the next discharge cycle is improved. If it is only sulfated it may improve. Odyssey says to run up to 5 discharge cycles. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

My first discharge cycle yielded about 13 amp-hours out of 16 amp-hours for a new battery. That is about 80% of new capacity. Odyssey considers this a failed/worn-out battery. I’m recharging it now. It will be interesting to see if the next discharge cycle is improved. If it is only sulfated it may improve. Odyssey says to run up to 5 discharge cycles. 

 

 

 

Morning Roger

 

That is marginal, I'm curious to see if you can save that battery.  

 

If you are going to continue to charge that bike's battery when in storage using  a timer you might consider installing a relay  between the charger & the battery. Have the relay go open when no charging current present but go closed when it sees charger-on current.  (this would give you complete charger to battery isolation). Then set the timer for a once a month top-off.

 

Is that Minn Kota proper output for the Odyssey (most standard deep cycle boat batteries don't require the higher output charging cycles of the Odyssey). Maybe that also  has some patristic drain due  to the static voltage monitoring built in.  

 

What resistor package are you using for the pull-down? I'm sure that you posted that info before but this will save me the searching________________.

[roger 04 rt]

Good Morning DR,

 

I too am curious to see if this can be revived. My '04RT, when I sulfated a brand new PC680 in less than a year, was in even worse shape from daily top-ups with a BT Jr. It took 4-5 cycles (I forget) and then capacity was in the mid-upper 90%.

 

Complicating this is the fact that I upgraded my GS-911 and it now only samples every 2 seconds. So my battery looks perfect! I have a ticket into their Mojo Helpdesk and Hexcode is working on fixing it or getting me a downgrade.

 

I had the same thoughts about a relay to disconnect the charger's output. 

 

The Minn Kota is on the "approved" list from Odyssey but it's charging voltage is only around 14.4 volts. However, it too has about 2.3 mA of parasitic drain. That's not a big problem on a large flooded boat battery but it's too much for a small PC680 in storage.

 

I'm using three 6 ohm, 50 watt resistors that produces an average draw of about 3 amps which is near the 5C discharge rate. Two of the resistors are in series, and then that pair is in parallel with the third, for a resistance of 4 ohms. They're wired to the SAE that I cut off the Schumacher, and plugged into the charging pigtail. Picture below.

 

I stuck the all the discharge data points into a spreadsheet this morning and got 13.4 Ah or 84%. The battery took 4 hours and 30 minutes to fully discharge, then I recharged it overnight at 14.8V for 9 hours. Discharging again now.

[dirtrider]

16 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Good Morning DR,

 

I too am curious to see if this can be revived. My '04RT, when I sulfated a brand new PC680 in less than a year, was in even worse shape from daily top-ups with a BT Jr. It took 4-5 cycles (I forget) and then capacity was in the mid-upper 90%.

 

Complicating this is the fact that I upgraded my GS-911 and it now only samples every 2 seconds. So my battery looks perfect! I have a ticket into their Mojo Helpdesk and Hexcode is working on fixing it or getting me a downgrade.

 

I had the same thoughts about a relay to disconnect the charger's output. 

 

The Minn Kota is on the "approved" list from Odyssey but it's charging voltage is only around 14.4 volts. However, it too has about 2.3 mA of parasitic drain. That's not a big problem on a large flooded boat battery but it's too much for a small PC680 in storage.

 

I'm using three 6 ohm, 50 watt resistors that produces an average draw of about 3 amps which is near the 5C discharge rate. Two of the resistors are in series, and then that pair is in parallel with the third, for a resistance of 4 ohms. They're wired to the SAE that I cut off the Schumacher, and plugged into the charging pigtail. Picture below.

 

I stuck the all the discharge data points into a spreadsheet this morning and got 13.4 Ah or 84%. The battery took 4 hours and 30 minutes to fully discharge, then I recharged it overnight at 14.8V for 9 hours. Discharging again now.

 

 

Morning Roger

 

Thanks for the resistor info. I 'was' using old auto headlight's for my load but one burned out so I am back to square one without a lot of re-measuring.

 

I have an old carbon pile battery load tester but that darn thing is so old & is made for larger battery loads so I have issues with the carbon pile sticking at lower loads.

 

Do you need your GS-911 for lowest  starting voltage?  I will have to look at my Fluke, it will trap peak voltage but I'm not sure about trapping lowest voltage (haven't ever tried that).  

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Yes, in order to trap the voltage dip I need my GS-911, my DVM is basic. When sampling in Turbo mode at about 400 mS rate, here is the sequence of voltages I got the other day.

 

0 -- 12.43V (starter button pressed)

350 mS -- 8.02V

700 mS -- 8.25V

1.05 S -- 10.25V

1.4 S -- 10.5V (bike has started)

 

As you pointed out earlier or by PM, the bike has a weak spark and very little fuel with from the injectors due to the very low voltage.

 

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Yes, in order to trap the voltage dip I need my GS-911, my DVM is basic. When sampling in Turbo mode at about 400 mS rate, here is the sequence of voltages I got the other day.

 

0 -- 12.43V (starter button pressed)

350 mS -- 8.02V

700 mS -- 8.25V

1.05 S -- 10.25V

1.4 S -- 10.5V (bike has started)

 

So as you pointed out earlier or by PM, the bike has a weak spark and very little fuel with from the injectors due to the very low voltage.

 

 

Thanks Roger

 

I am very curious how this turns out, we have guessed at this for years but with your thorough testing approach we will hopefully have credible documentation on the exacts of this first crank low voltage issue.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

One quick update:

 

The GS-911 is not logging slowly as I reported (in haste). What is happening is that after i cleaned and lubed the starter (coincidentally I guess) the battery glitch was large enough when I pressed the starter button that communication between the Motronic and GS-911 stopped for 3-4 seconds--both are powered by the bikes battery voltage. I suspect the Motronic but can't prove that yet. I guess I was just lucky to catch the transient on my very first realtime log.

 

Because of the 3-4 seconds of lost communication it doesn't record the glitch ... but since communication is lost (and that rarely happens) I feel confident saying that there was still a sizable voltage dip after servicing the starter.

 

I'm just about to wrap up the second discharge cycle and it looks like the battery capacity will have increased to 14.8 Ah, up from about 13.8 Ah the first time. Progress.

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

One quick update:

 

The GS-911 is not logging slowly as I reported (in haste). What is happening is that after i cleaned and lubed the starter (coincidentally I guess) the battery glitch was large enough when I pressed the starter button that communication between the Motronic and GS-911 stopped for 3-4 seconds--both are powered by the bikes battery voltage. I suspect the Motronic but can't prove that yet. I guess I was just lucky to catch the transient on my very first realtime log.

 

Because of the 3-4 seconds of lost communication it doesn't record the glitch ... but since communication is lost (and that rarely happens) I feel confident saying that there was still a sizable voltage dip after servicing the starter.

 

I'm just about to wrap up the second discharge cycle and it looks like the battery capacity will have increased to 14.8 Ah, up from about 13.8 Ah the first time. Progress.

 

Afternoon Roger

 

Thanks for the update.

 

How are you figuring the Ah rating? Are you using the (nominal) fixed 3 amps of load/vs/time or are you also accounting for the load amp-change as the battery voltage drops?  

[roger 04 rt]

Afternoon DR,

I am entering data every 20 minutes into a spreadsheet. Then for every 20 minute window it averages  starting and ending voltage and divides that by 4 ohms to calculate the average current in the 20 minute window. Then I divide the average current by 3 (since 20 minutes is 1/3 of an hour) to calculate Ah per 20 minute period. Then at the end, I add up all the 20 minute Ah periods. You have to stop the discharge at 10.07 volts so in that case if the time between the last two samples is less that 20 minutes, I make a further correction for that cell.

 

I just finished the second discharge. It took 5 hours and 20 minutes and yielded 15.3 Ah, which is around 95% capacity.

 

There was another change too after the first discharge cycle, when I attached my programmable power supply (set at 14.8V) the current started at 4.5 amps, and climbed to 5.5 amps in the first hour. The battery then charged overnight. After the second discharge cycle, when the power supply was attached, the charging current was about 9.5 amps right away and stayed there for a couple minutes and is now slowing coming down. It seems a good sign based on Odysseys data which says to charge it correctly you need to charge with a minimum 6 amp supply.

 

The battery will now recharge for the rest of the day.

[wbw6cos]

Wow!  Very informative postings. Keep 'em up.

[roger 04 rt]

In my discharge methodology I hadn’t take the resistance of my cables and the SAE connector into account. I went back to the shop and measured it with a 3amp current and got a surprisingly high 0.33 ohms. I also spotted two small errors in my spreadsheet. 

 

Here are are the revised numbers:

 

1st discharge:  12.4 Ah, 78% capacity, 4 hours 30 minutes

2nd discharge: 14.8 Ah, 92% capacity, 5 hours 20 minutes

 

I plan to run a third discharge tomorrow.

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Afternoon DR,

I am entering data every 20 minutes into a spreadsheet. Then for every 20 minute window it averages  starting and ending voltage and divides that by 4 ohms to calculate the average current in the 20 minute window. Then I divide the average current by 3 (since 20 minutes is 1/3 of an hour) to calculate Ah per 20 minute period. Then at the end, I add up all the 20 minute Ah periods. You have to stop the discharge at 10.07 volts so in that case if the time between the last two samples is less that 20 minutes, I make a further correction for that cell.

 

I just finished the second discharge. It took 5 hours and 20 minutes and yielded 15.3 Ah, which is around 95% capacity.

 

There was another change too after the first discharge cycle, when I attached my programmable power supply (set at 14.8V) the current started at 4.5 amps, and climbed to 5.5 amps in the first hour. The battery then charged overnight. After the second discharge cycle, when the power supply was attached, the charging current was about 9.5 amps right away and stayed there for a couple minutes and is now slowing coming down. It seems a good sign based on Odysseys data which says to charge it correctly you need to charge with a minimum 6 amp supply.

 

The battery will now recharge for the rest of the day.

 

Evening Roger

 

Now 'THAT' is dedication to a project.   

 

I don't have that much dedication, I just plug in a 3 amp load, set the timer on my cell phone to remind me at 3.5 hours, then see where I'm at in 3.5 hours. With my 3 amp (give or take) load the PC 680 usually goes between 4-5 hours to reach 10 volts. (never yet had one go less than 3.5 hours)

 

I then watch it every 1/2 hour until it gets to about 10.5v, then at 10.25v  I stay pretty close as it doesn't take long from 10.25 to 10v.   

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

In my discharge methodology I hadn’t take the resistance of my cables and the SAE connector into account. I went back to the shop and measured it with a 3amp current and got a surprisingly high 0.33 ohms. I also spotted two small errors in my spreadsheet. 

 

Here are are the revised numbers:

 

1st discharge:  12.4 Ah, 78% capacity

2nd discharge: 14.8 Ah, 92% capacity

 

I plan to run a third discharge tomorrow.

 

Evening Roger

 

That is progress, I am VERY curious on how much that battery improvement  is going to effect/improve your cold engine fire-off.  Excellent work ( & reporting) on your part.

[roger 04 rt]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening Roger

 

Now 'THAT' is dedication to a project.   

 

I don't have that much dedication, I just plug in a 3 amp load, set the timer on my cell phone to remind me at 3.5 hours, then see where I'm at in 3.5 hours. With my 3 amp (give or take) load the PC 680 usually goes between 4-5 hours to reach 10 volts. (never yet had one go less than 3.5 hours)

 

I then watch it every 1/2 hour until it gets to about 10.5v, then at 10.25v  I stay pretty close as it doesn't take long from 10.25 to 10v.   

 

Hi Dr,

My goal was to measure the battery capacity on the first discharge well enough to be able to rule the battery in/out. 78% of new capacity and at the same time showing a voltage at 100% SOC is both contradictory and telling. The battery looks like a possible culprit. After one more discharge recharge cycle I will try a real-time log to see if there is improvement in starting. 

[roger 04 rt]

Interesting side development ...

 

I've been unable to get the GS-911 to record values fast enough since I first discharged the battery. Hexcode processed a trouble ticket for me but said they couldn't duplicate it. Further study of the data showed that every time I pressed the start button, there was a 3 second delay from the Motronic so I couldn't see the transient voltage dip during the first second.

 

This morning I realized why that might be happening. I have been discharging the battery while installed in the bike. The voltage has dipped to 10V twice, and the first time it reached 9.54V for several minutes before I got back to check. That was enough to reset the Motronic apparently, and I never reregistered the throttle (key on, rotate the throttle twice, key off). Apparently, without the key on/rotate/key off after disconnecting the battery, the Motronic does some housekeeping every time the starter button is pressed and it keeps doing that until the throttle is reregistered.

 

After resetting the Motronic and reregistering the throttle, the GS-911 now logs at full speed, even during the startup transient.

 

On the third start of the day (while I figured out the GS-911 problem) the 300 mS transient voltage was 9.54 volts. Much better than the 8.05V recorded at the start of this project. However, since it was the third start of the day, I don't think we can rely on the 9.54V data point.

 

The battery is now discharging for the third time, and I will reregister the throttle before my next test!

[roger 04 rt]

1st discharge:  12.4 Ah, 78% capacity, 4 hours 30 minutes

2nd discharge: 14.8 Ah, 92% capacity, 5:20

3rd discharge: 14.8 Ah, 92% capacity, 5:20

 

The third discharge cycle was just the same as the second. I may have reached maximum reconditioning. However, the battery has been sustaining a 10 amp recharge rate (maximum of my power supply) for half an hour so maybe there's some further improvement coming.

 

At 92% capacity, there's still more life in this battery according to Odyssey, who says to replace at 80%.

 

After the bike is fully recharged and has sat overnight, I'll run a cold start test with the GS-911 and see what the battery drop is like.

[roger 04 rt]

I wanted to get out for a ride so after discharging the battery I set the charger for a 10 amp rate for an hour which gets the battery to 60% charged. To my surprise, it fired quickly with no ABS error. What better way to finish the charge than a long ride?

[Marty Hill]

I think you have earned at least 5 years of trouble free riding.  Best going forward.

[roger 04 rt]

After three discharge/recharge cycles following Odyssey's instructions for how to desulfate the PC680 in order to regain its lost capacity, the GS-911 Wifi was used to collect a start-up voltage data set this morning. In its fastest mode, the GS-911 captures battery voltage and RPM data every 325 mS (about three samples per second), something that can't be done with ordinary shop tools or a regular DVM.

 

My R1150GS now starts in under a second after an overnight cool-down period, and the minimum transient voltage is about 10V, up from 8V prior to reconditioning. Battery capacity improved about 20%, increasing to 92%, compared to 78% prior to reconditioning. The ABS no longer logs an error at start-up, compared to several errors before. The steady state cranking voltage (fuel pump relay removed) has improved about a quarter volt, now at about 10.6V compared to 10.3 V before.

 

The main lesson learned here (as I did on the RT) is that it's not too hard to damage the PC680 by improperly charging it. Even with a boosted voltage regulator, this battery was sulfated by a non-approved charger, which ran only 6 hours per week, for about 6 months.

 

All in all, the results look good, a success. It'll be interesting to see how many more years I get from this battery. In the future, since the PC680 has a low self-discharge rate, I'm thinking that I'll remove the battery for the winter, use no battery maintainer, and recharge it when the bike comes out of storage.

 

Below are the before and after charts showing the significantly improved voltage response to starting.

[terryofperry]

40 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

, I'm thinking that I'll remove the battery for the winter, use no battery maintainer, and recharge it when the bike comes out of storage.

 

Or.....better yet....take it to Florida with you for the winter and ride it.  Roger.

 

Terry

[roger 04 rt]

Hey Terry, Good idea but I’ve got the Wethead RT there so the GS remains behind in storage ...