Is my alternator going bad?

[Roadking1]

Greetings,

My 2014 RT has 64,000 miles and battery replaced 6 months ago. Yesterday I pressed the starter with clutch pulled in first gear and got nothing. Put it in neutral and it fired right up. Rode about 20 miles and the battery warning light came on, checked the charging voltage via the OBC and it was at 11.8 volts, usually it is around 14.2. Got home and pulled the battery, cleaned connections (they weren't bad) put it back in and connected the GS911 - no faults indicated. Did not start the bike with the GS911 connected, not sure if that would give more information. Hooked up a battery tender over night and it brought the voltage back up to 12.4. Went for a 75 mile ride today and the charging voltage reading on the OBC started at 12.4 and dropped down to 12.1 by the time I got home. Any ideas on what's wrong? Is there a way I can check the alternator?

Thanks

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, Roadking1 said:

Greetings,

My 2014 RT has 64,000 miles and battery replaced 6 months ago. Yesterday I pressed the starter with clutch pulled in first gear and got nothing. Put it in neutral and it fired right up. Rode about 20 miles and the battery warning light came on, checked the charging voltage via the OBC and it was at 11.8 volts, usually it is around 14.2. Got home and pulled the battery, cleaned connections (they weren't bad) put it back in and connected the GS911 - no faults indicated. Did not start the bike with the GS911 connected, not sure if that would give more information. Hooked up a battery tender over night and it brought the voltage back up to 12.4. Went for a 75 mile ride today and the charging voltage reading on the OBC started at 12.4 and dropped down to 12.1 by the time I got home. Any ideas on what's wrong? Is there a way I can check the alternator?

Thanks

 

Evening Roadking1

 

No way to know exactly without more troubleshooting to verify actual alternator output per leg (has 3 legs) & continuity of wiring from alternator to & through regulator but it sort of points to either a bad alternator or bad regulator.

 

Hope it isn't the alternator as that is BIG job as the engine pretty well needs to be removed.

[Roadking1]

Ugh, I was afraid of that. Thanks DR, off to the dealer.

[LAF]

Well there are some basic tests to try to see if maybe your voltage regulator may be bad, been known to happen.

 

Anything done lately?  Something that may cause parasitic draw?

 

A stator replacement is a way big item.

[Roadking1]

Thanks Lee, what are the basic tests for the voltage regulator? About 6 months and 3,000 miles ago I changed the low beam to LED which has been working well. Clearwater Darla's several years ago.

 

[Bobup]

12.4 volts is not a fully charged battery.A discharged and or faulty battery will have a high internal resistance. The battery will need to be fully charged and then tested before I would condemn a charging system.

[LAF]

9 hours ago, Roadking1 said:

Thanks Lee, what are the basic tests for the voltage regulator? About 6 months and 3,000 miles ago I changed the low beam to LED which has been working well. Clearwater Darla's several years ago.

 

Is the led fan cooled?  It is not running all the time or not shutting down with key off or something crazy like that?  Seems odd that it is a six month item and when your issue started.

 

I am not an electrical wiz, but I am sure if you search you will find voltages for what you should see at the voltage regulator, the battery, and the starter.  It also may be resistance you need to look at not voltage especially around the voltage regulator as it has some juice behind it.

 

Also no guarantee on a battery being or staying good.  While not easy to do removing the battery and having it load tested is a good first step so you are not chasing your tail.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Roadking1 said:

Ugh, I was afraid of that. Thanks DR, off to the dealer.

 

Morning  Roadking1

 

That might be the best approach.

 

With the limited info that you posted above it doesn't sound like the battery as a battery or parasitic  drain issue usually effects & is observed with the engine not running (low voltage at engine off is usually a battery issue or battery drain issue)

 

If the low voltage problem (under 13-13.5 volts) is observed with the engine running at 3000 rpm's plus then the problem is usually a charging issue like  bad alternator, bad regulator, or broken charging wiring.

 

I don't have the stator output  specs on newer 1200wc engines but you can still sort of check the stator output &  check the stator  for shorts to ground with a simple ohmmeter & voltmeter.

 

There should be a long wire pigtail coming out of the rear of engine (rear top of engine) with 3 yellow wires in it. This pig tail plugs into the voltage regulator so probably access it there.

 

Start by unplugging that 3 yellow wire pig  tail from the voltage regulator, then use your ohmmeter to check resistance to engine  ground on all 3 yellow wires (I don't have a resistance number but you need to see all 3 wires about the same (or no) continuity to ground  (all 3 legs should have very high resistance to ground & be somewhat equal).

 

Next, put you meter on the 100 volt AC scale  (or whatever your meter has that is close to 100 volts AC). Note: it needs to be on the AC scale not DC scale as you are measuring the 3 phase  AC alternator output before rectification.

 

Then run the engine at about 3000 rpm's  & measure between all the yellow wires 2 at a time (1-2, 1-3, 2-1, 2-3, 3-1, 3-2).

 

Here is the guessing part (sort of anyhow)-- I do not have the stator leg AC output voltages but most I have measured in the past (on other engines)  are in the 30vac to 50vac range. The important thing is that all the output measurements are close to the same  & not excessively low.

 

So if you find   35, 34, 12 vac output then you probably have a bad stator. The stator leg output is almost never higher than specs (even on a failed stator) but I have found a lot of low ones (not on the BMW 1200wc engine though as I haven't ever measured one)

 

It is pretty easy to get a stator output idea as you want all 3 legs to have about the same HIGH resistance to ground (this shows no shorted windings to ground). And want to see about the same voltage AC between all 3 legs of the stator at 3000 rpm's (I don't knw what the nominal AC voltage output is but probably above 30 volts AC  but you also want to see them fairly equal (so 35, 35, 10 shows a failed stator)  but 45,43, 38 might be bad or might  be going bad)

 

If all 3 legs  resistance to ground is high & even & all  3 legs have equal AC voltage outputs above 30 volts then there is a good chance that your stator is still functioning OK & your problem lies elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyS]

Has anyone heard of an alternator failing (electrically) on a Wethead RT? I have never come across one. I have heard of alternator failures caused by a stator bolt coming loose and destroying the Alternator.

On the 2013 and 2014 GS Wetheads however, I have heard of a couple of Alternator failures due to windings burning out. Folk get paranoid very quickly about alternator failures, let's just ease this along with good diagnostics.

[Roadking1]

Thanks for all the input. And you are right, I am pretty paranoid about this! Speaking of which, I had noticed a different little vibration over the last few months coming from the engine when coasting to a stop. So slight I thought I was imagining it. The paranoia is sinking in...

 

The LED has the braided heat sinks. The current and original batteries have always peaked at 12.4 volts, whether it was on the battery tender for a few months during the "do not ride" episode, or under normal almost daily 50 to 70 mile riding on the freeway. I will start by taking the battery out and getting a load test as suggested. If the battery checks ok I have a friend that is pretty good with electrical stuff that has offered to help me with DR's information on checking the alternator. Meanwhile I am charging it up at night and riding it locally during the day.

[LAF]

Well I hope you get off lucky with a voltage regulator or something else easy.

 

There have been a few stator failures in wetheads I have read about.  One as mentioned was a bolt or fastener of some type that took it out.

 

The one thing I learned is that our bikes stator just produces voltage at a constant rate, our voltage regulator says I need this much to go to the battery to keep it at this set voltage, taking into account what is being used from the battery included what is needed to run the bike, and the rest is just shunt to ground to get rid of.

 

So if you are lucky maybe you get out of relatively cheap.  I have also read some posts somewhere where others have found a more robust voltage regulator, that operates a bit better for our shunt to ground system as they are nothing special, and mounted it in a more open area as they do tend to get really hot and they are really taking some abuse.

 

Do the tests that are posted and see what you come up with. 

 

I am rooting for you for sure.

[Roadking1]

Thanks Lee.  

The battery load test was good but unfortunately the dealer reported back the stator has failed, not sure yet if it is a loose screw destroying the stator or just a bad stator until it gets opened up. They will get back to me tomorrow with total cost to repair. Not sure what I am going to do. 

[AndyS]

Roadking1, that is such bad news to hear. I hope it gets resolve quickly for you.

[Roadking1]

Update - 10 days ago I decided getting it fixed was the best option and told the dealer I'd like for them to proceed, price is around $3,500. New ETA for the alternator coming from Europe is August 18. First time I have been without a bike for this long. Hard to deal with.

[LAF]

I am so sorry to hear this.  Hope the repair goes well. 

 

Are there other parts that should be replaced while in that far?

[Roadking1]

Bike got torn apart today, the stator overheated and failed. No other issues found. The new stator has been redesigned, looks like it is better able to hold up inside the engine. I have a call into BMW asking about good will assistance with cost. Looking forward to getting my bike back!

[Roadking1]

a few more pictures.

 

[LAF]

Wow.  I knew what was needed done, still a shock to see it.

 

The new one sure does look a lot more robust for sure!

[Skywagon]

Road King...you may be King of the Road on wet alternator work.  First time I've seen one this far apart.  That stator reminds me of rotary engines....

 

[Pappy35]

OMG. The old one looks like it was wound by a stoner in high school shop class. That's HORRIBLE! I'd push for assistance on the basis of what would appear to be a horribly made rotor.

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Roadking1 said:

Bike got torn apart today, the stator overheated and failed. No other issues found. The new stator has been redesigned, looks like it is better able to hold up inside the engine. I have a call into BMW asking about good will assistance with cost. Looking forward to getting my bike back!

 

 

 

Morning Roadking1

 

That is a major re-design isn't it?

 

Old = 15 larger windings with new replacement having 21 longer thinner windings. (probably so each individual  coil handles less current per winding plus longer coils oil-cool better).

 

The good news is that hopefully this ends YOUR stator issues for good, bad news is (IF) BMW did that much of a re-design then  there will probably many more future stator failures for other riders with the same poor original design.

 

Apparently BMW didn't learn their lesson on all the 800GS stator failures  that they had (or maybe they did learn) as they offered a very expensive new design stator + new open flywheel  as a customer pay replacement as most 800GS stator failures occurred just out of warranty coverage.

 

Is BMW installing a new rectifier/regulator on your bike?

 

 

[Roadking1]

D.R.  The dealer is replacing the rectifier/regulator as well.

And I agree Pappy35, the old stator looks horrible, especially considering it is located inside the engine. Hard to fathom.

[PadG]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Roadking1

 

That is a major re-design isn't it?

 

Old = 15 larger windings with new replacement having 21 longer thinner windings. (probably so each individual  coil handles less current per winding plus longer coils oil-cool better).

 

The good news is that hopefully this ends YOUR stator issues for good, bad news is (IF) BMW did that much of a re-design then  there will probably many more future stator failures for other riders with the same poor original design.

 

Apparently BMW didn't learn their lesson on all the 800GS stator failures  that they had (or maybe they did learn) as they offered a very expensive new design stator + new open flywheel  as a customer pay replacement as most 800GS stator failures occurred just out of warranty coverage.

 

Is BMW installing a new rectifier/regulator on your bike?

 

 

Good morning DR,

 

Not so, in regard to current!  The output is 3-phase AC, and so the coils are connected in series in 3 sets (5/set in one case and 7/set in the other).  However, the total number of turns of the coils together will determine the voltage output, and since the regulator hasn't changed, you can safely assume that the voltage output of each phase will be the same with the 21 coils stator as with the 15 coils stator.  The current through each coil, regardless of 15 or 21 coils will be the same, since they are all connected in series, and the output of the stator remains the same.

 

What it does mean is that, with the 21 turns stator, there are less turns in the individual coil than the 15 coils one.  So, better cooling is the reason for this redesign of lower number of turns per coil as well as longer coil for better spacing of the winding.

 

EDIT: saw that the dealer is also replacing the regulator, after I had clicked post!  Still, nothing has changed regarding what I said above, unless the power output of the stator has been lowered.

[Bernie]

Is this a oil flow problem? Isn’t the stator cooled by motor oil?

 

[PadG]

Yes, Bernie, it is cooled by the engine oil.

[Pappy35]

The name on the new one come back to a Japanese auto parts supplier. You can see one that looks just like this one in their site so it would seem that BMW changed their vendor. This is actually a good think for guys like me that avoided this model for the alternator location. That part is obviously well made so maybe over the long run it'll be a lot more reliable. I believe that most of the alternator failures reported online seem to be in the 2014 MY?

[longjohn]

Does anyone know what model years got the new stator design?

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, PadG said:

Good morning DR,

 

Not so, in regard to current!  The output is 3-phase AC, and so the coils are connected in series in 3 sets (5/set in one case and 7/set in the other).  However, the total number of turns of the coils together will determine the voltage output, and since the regulator hasn't changed, you can safely assume that the voltage output of each phase will be the same with the 21 coils stator as with the 15 coils stator.  The current through each coil, regardless of 15 or 21 coils will be the same, since they are all connected in series, and the output of the stator remains the same.

 

What it does mean is that, with the 21 turns stator, there are less turns in the individual coil than the 15 coils one.  So, better cooling is the reason for this redesign of lower number of turns per coil as well as longer coil for better spacing of the winding.

 

EDIT: saw that the dealer is also replacing the regulator, after I had clicked post!  Still, nothing has changed regarding what I said above, unless the power output of the stator has been lowered.

 

 

Afternoon PadG

 

I wasn't referring to VOLTAGE as the voltage comes out as  AC  then is rectified then regulated in the regulator/rectifier into 14.xx volts pulsed DC, so  the voltage itself  isn't the heat source. I was referring to output amperage (equals heat)  that each coil has to dissipate.

 

AFAIK, the alternator output is around 35 amps (nominal) so with 15 individual coils the max amps output produced per each wound coil is around 2.33 amps, with 21 wound coils the amps output per coil  is only around 1.66 amps. So (assuming still 35 amps output) each coil winding has to produce less amps, that equals less heat produced per winding.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Bernie said:

Is this a oil flow problem? Isn’t the stator cooled by motor oil?

 

 

Afternoon Bernie

 

Yes, the stator is oil cooled but it isn't force fed cooling.

 

The early BMW 800GS bikes had a fairly high stator failure rate due  to lack of cooling oil because  the original flywheel was enclosed so oil flow into the stator area was limited (poor oil flow into the flywheel resulted in very little stator heat carried away by the oil therefore overheated stators).

Also,  early 800 bikes also required thicker motor oil so that also reduced heat transfer & heat removal.

 

Us hardcore off-roaders were removing the flywheel, then drilling large oil flow holes in the flywheel outer face (that helped reduce stator failures by a LOT).

 

On the later 800 bikes BMW released a flywheel with those large oil flow cooling  holes so that pretty well eliminated most common stator  failures.

 

When I first saw the BMW 1200WC engines & saw the open alternator rotor I though that we probably wouldn't see a lot of stator failures as it looked like BMW had learned from the 800 bikes & increased the oil cooling on the 1200WC alternators. 

 

(WE) haven't seen or heard of a lot of 1200WC stator failures but it seems that BMW might have as it appears they have re-designed the stator (that usually doesn't happen with a motor company unless they have had a good reason to do so)

 

 

[PatM]

1 hour ago, longjohn said:

Does anyone know what model years got the new stator design?

From a post on another forum, the stator was redesigned mid 2014 or so.

[PadG]

20 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

Afternoon PadG

 

I wasn't referring to VOLTAGE as the voltage comes out as  AC  then is rectified then regulated in the regulator/rectifier into 14.xx volts pulsed DC, so  the voltage itself  isn't the heat source. I was referring to output amperage (equals heat)  that each coil has to dissipate.

 

AFAIK, the alternator output is around 35 amps (nominal) so with 15 individual coils the max amps output produced per each wound coil is around 2.33 amps, with 21 wound coils the amps output per coil  is only around 1.66 amps. So (assuming still 35 amps output) each coil winding has to produce less amps, that equals less heat produced per winding.

You should read again!  You should also learn how an automotive alternator works, and more about 3-phase AC is generated and configured!  I am afraid that you are out of your depth in this regard. 

• Quote

GAIN!

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, PadG said:

You should read again!  You should also learn how an automotive alternator works, and more about 3-phase AC is generated and configured!  I am afraid that you are out of your depth in this regard. 

• Quote

GAIN!

 

 

Morning  PadG

 

I think you are the one that needs to re-read something___  It seems that I have more depth than you do on this as I know the difference between a fixed magnet  internal motorcycle alternator & an automotive variable magnet rotor alternator.

 

We are 'not' working with an automotive alternator here as the BMW 1200wc internal alternator is a permanent magnet rotor type not an automotive type with a variable magnet rotor.  

[Roadking1]

I picked the bike up today, $3,559 total, about half was parts and half labor. My request for good will compensation from BMW was denied. At least I have my bike back.

[Pappy35]

Wait, so the job you $3,500 for the alternator? That at least $1,000 more than others have reported. WTF?!? 

[Roadking1]

Well, it did include the regulator, some nuts, screws, and gaskets. And oh yeah, oil and filter...

[Pappy35]

My Camhead is the first, and LAST, BMW I will ever own with a potential repair bill that big hanging over my head. That's just absurd.

 

Per MaxBMW the stator and regulator are about $1,500 ($1,300 and $230 respectively). So there's close to $2,000 in labor (oil and gaskets and such are, or should be, peanuts compared to those three items)??? Probably charged you $300 for the oil change. Something's just not right there. Have you scrutinized the bill?

 

God. Mad props to you man. I would lose my mind over a repair bill like that.

[Roadking1]

I am not happy about it but worse stuff could happen. Here's the bill. I am really burned by the nut that cost $14.11. Ha ha. And don't forget the cost of admission back in 2014 was $25K. Labor cost is also nuts around here. What really burns me is BMW knew there was a problem with the stator in my bike and would not step up and help out. I put 85K on a 2005 RT and now 63K miles on the 2014 RT. Not sure my next bike will be a BMW. Meanwhile I hope this one holds up for a bit.

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Roadking1 said:

I am not happy about it but worse stuff could happen. Here's the bill. I am really burned by the nut that cost $14.11. Ha ha. And don't forget the cost of admission back in 2014 was $25K. Labor cost is also nuts around here. What really burns me is BMW knew there was a problem with the stator in my bike and would not step up and help out. I put 85K on a 2005 RT and now 63K miles on the 2014 RT. Not sure my next bike will be a BMW. Meanwhile I hope this one holds up for a bit.

 

 

Morning Roadking1   

 

Seeing as you had to PAY for the repair then the old parts are yours to keep. Make sure to get your old stator & regulator back as that might come in handy  in the future if some sort of a class action law suit is filed against BMW & the lawyers go looking for previous failed  examples. 

 

Somehow I think we will see & hear about more stator failures as time goes by.

 

You might also look for a new/different BMW dealer as your current dealer sure didn't fight for you very hard (they just took you money & ran).

 

 

[PadG]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:25 AM, dirtrider said:

 

 

Morning  PadG

 

I think you are the one that needs to re-read something___  It seems that I have more depth than you do on this as I know the difference between a fixed magnet  internal motorcycle alternator & an automotive variable magnet rotor alternator.

 

We are 'not' working with an automotive alternator here as the BMW 1200wc internal alternator is a permanent magnet rotor type not an automotive type with a variable magnet rotor.  

You still don't know how to read!

 

First, in the original post I DID said current, which if you didn't know, is amperage.  Second, if you know anything about the coils set-up you would know that they are in  series, in 3 groups.   Basic electrical knowledge will tell you that, if the output is 35 amps (your number), then they all will be subjected to 35 amps, regardless of whether there are 5 or 7 coils in the set, and NOT 1/5 or 1/7 of the 35 amps!  More details?  I really don't want to bore the group with those details.  You still don't know how 3-phase, or for that matter, multi-phase power is produced!

 

Alternator have been around a very long time.  Triumph replaced the DC generator with an alternator back in the mid-60's.  Saved a lot of weight of a lot less copper, along with lower costs associated.

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, PadG said:

You still don't know how to read!

 

First, in the original post I DID said current, which if you didn't know, is amperage.  Second, if you know anything about the coils set-up you would know that they are in  series, in 3 groups.   Basic electrical knowledge will tell you that, if the output is 35 amps (your number), then they all will be subjected to 35 amps, regardless of whether there are 5 or 7 coils in the set, and NOT 1/5 or 1/7 of the 35 amps!  More details?  I really don't want to bore the group with those details.  You still don't know how 3-phase, or for that matter, multi-phase power is produced!

 

Alternator have been around a very long time.  Triumph replaced the DC generator with an alternator back in the mid-60's.  Saved a lot of weight of a lot less copper, along with lower costs associated.

 

PadG

 

Go ahead bore us, I would really like to hear  how you explain this!

 

Added: On second thought, never mind explaining anything, this is someone else's thread & I don't want to hijack it any more.

 

I already said what needed saying from me,  you already spoke your piece so we will just have to let the readers believe who they trust.

 

[marcopolo]

It's interesting that OP was billed $1322 for that alternator, whereas Max BMW's parts fiche shows that same item costing $1259.  Not that a $63 difference matters when the bill's over $3500, but it's curious.  Is Max's online fiche price out of date?

[Pappy35]

Unless I grievously misunderstand this conversation, no one here is trying to conclusively determine the physics and engineering of alternator designs as applied to large motorcycles. Please take your argument offline, you guys can yell at each other until the crows come home because no one else cares who's right or wrong. Didn't one or both of you have this same argument on the MOA forum not too long ago? Maybe it's just deja vu???

 

"You're WRONG!"

 

"No. YOU'RE WRONG!"

 

"Nah ahhh!!!!! You are!!!"

 

This just get's old after a while...

[wbw6cos]

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, marcopolo said:

It's interesting that OP was billed $1322 for that alternator, whereas Max BMW's parts fiche shows that same item costing $1259.  Not that a $63 difference matters when the bill's over $3500, but it's curious.  Is Max's online fiche price out of date?

 

Evening  marcopolo

 

Good question, Max does show $1259 & the web site allows me to put it in my shopping cart at that  price.

 

A&S BMW shows the same P/N  stator( generator) at $1322 so that price also seems valid.  (but A&S also states that they will price match to a same part number item)

 

A while back I asked a BMW dealer about a higher price than listed at other (online) dealers and the parts manager told me that BMW sets a suggested price so they can't (per BMW) sell below that price but he said they could sell at a higher price if they wanted to. (not saying this is gospel, just what I was told)

 

 

[John in VA]

2 hours ago, Pappy35 said:

Unless I grievously misunderstand this conversation, no one here is trying to conclusively determine the physics and engineering of alternator designs as applied to large motorcycles. Please take your argument offline...

 

I'm not taking sides (since I'm ignorant of the engineering) but DR already dropped the subject 4 hours before your scold. 

[Rider1200RT]

I am surprised that BMW didn't give some credit towards the bill seeing that the original part looks like a 5 year old wound that burnt out stator..

It really looks like some amateur did that work and it somehow passed QC in the factory! Quite ridiculous really...

[Skywagon]

I would ask the BMW dealer to give you the name of the regional BMW rep and talk to them directly.  A very nicely written letter to the CEO may help.  It has worked for me in the past.

[PadG]

I absolutely hate to be negative, but the probability of BMW doing something is about zero!  We had another case of alternator failure in the other forum (with lots of discussions).  This was a couple of months ago, and the poster took the RT apart himself, and it turned out that the failure was due to a screw that had gotten loose off the rotor, and basically mashed up several of the coils.  He had lots of photo, and had been working with his dealer on the issue as well as contacting BMW.  So far, zero response, and he is stuck with the cost of the new stator.  Another BMW QA issue that BMW should have taken responsibility for!

[dirtrider]

20 hours ago, Skywagon said:

I would ask the BMW dealer to give you the name of the regional BMW rep and talk to them directly.  A very nicely written letter to the CEO may help.  It has worked for me in the past.

 

 

Morning Skywagon

 

That will sometimes work & sometimes not.  From what I have seen in the past being involved with some BMW out-of-warranty failures is the dealer's pro customer involvement being a BIG factor in getting help from BMW. (if the dealer doesn't care then BMW doesn't seem to care)

 

If the dealer is solidly on the customers side then BMW will usually wiggle a bit and  at least pay part of the repair. (Most dealers could care less so just won't take the fight to BMW for the customer). 

 

From past experience, what seems to work best (if you can arrange it),  is to get the dealer to set up a meeting 'at the dealer'  with BMW rep, dealer service manager, & customer all meeting there together. The dealer side  is usually a little more pro customer  with the customer present (plus, they can't easily lie to the customer later).

 

No guarantees, but from  what I have seen in the past, having BMW rep, dealer, & customer all together at one time gets the most positive results.