TB sync.

[roger 04 rt]

7 minutes ago, kruuuzn said:

One more question; why do they recommend you ride the bike to get the motor up to temp? Why can't you do that on the center stand and just keep an eye on the oil temp?

 

Because that method minimizes the risk of overheating. With enough cooling air you can do either.

[roger 04 rt]

15 minutes ago, kruuuzn said:

THIS morning I got my feeler gages out and did this with a .002 shim. Then I gently put a little pressure on the cam and got the shim to drag. I would consider this closed for all practical purposes, wouldn't you?

 

If you put any pressure on the cam to get it to drag it wasn’t fully closed.  

 

Math says that 0.32 degrees is about 5 thousandth of an inch at the throttle stop. It’s a tiny amount and you could easily have moved it that much with “gentle pressure”.

 

and 0.32 degrees would make a large change to your TB BBS setting. 

[kruuuzn]

True, but at least that eliminates my concern of somebody messing with them in the past. The stops appear to be in their original locations.

[kruuuzn]

UPDATE:

 

I woke up this morning thinking about the left bank intake valves. Could this be causing the wacky setting on the LH BBS? I kept thinking that I DID chase those two valve settings a little.

Soooooooo, I pulled the valves covers off for about the forth time to re-check them (I'm getting pretty good at this part). And after all the run time yesterday they're right where I left them. Judging from larger and smaller feeler gauge comparisons they have got to be within .0005. As a journeyman tool maker, I'm a happy camper with that.

[Jim Moore]

Those screws need to be resting on the stops, not just barely off. You also need a tiny amount of slack in the lower cables so you can balance them.

[kruuuzn]

1 hour ago, Jim Moore said:

Those screws need to be resting on the stops, not just barely off.

 

I would agree but that wouldn't account for the big change in the BBS settings when I synced the TBs at idle. All that was changed was a cleaning of the BBS screws (and they weren't the least bit dirty) and lashing the valves.

[roger 04 rt]

Actually, a slightly different off stop distance would likely account for the big bbs difference. Just a tiny difference in any cable length or position could do it. 

[roger 04 rt]

If, as DR suggested, you remove the cables from the TB pulley and then adjust the BBSs, you may find the settings are more similar to each other. 

[kruuuzn]

Well, the problem was the TB cable adjusters were too tight. I'm thinking it was left over from a bad BMW service. This would be the reason I found the BBS adjustments to be more closed than spec when I started. They adjusted the cables too tight and got the idle back down by closing the BBSs.

 

So I:

Loosened all the cable adjusters and made sure the TB stops were dragging on a two grand shim.

Balanced the BBS's. They balanced perfectly at 1-1/4 and 1-3/4 turns out.

Watched my manometer while I took the slack out of the TB cable adjusters at a higher rpm. When the all the slack came out of the cable you could see the fluid level change.

Balanced the TB cables at 2,000 rpm by turning the adjuster that made the cable SHORTER.

Man, this thing balanced perfectly.

 

Thanks everyone for the help. Every post had tidbits that helped me reason this out in my mind.

 

DR: did you stay dry yesterday? We had some extreme storms up here. It was so dark at 2:00 in the afternoon that it would have easily passed for midnight.

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, kruuuzn said:

Well, the problem was the TB cable adjusters were too tight. I'm thinking it was left over from a bad BMW service. This would be the reason I found the BBS adjustments to be more closed than spec when I started. They adjusted the cables too tight and got the idle back down by closing the BBSs.

 

So I:

Loosened all the cable adjusters and made sure the TB stops were dragging on a two grand shim.

Balanced the BBS's. They balanced perfectly at 1-1/4 and 1-3/4 turns out.

Watched my manometer while I took the slack out of the TB cable adjusters at a higher rpm. When the all the slack came out of the cable you could see the fluid level change.

Balanced the TB cables at 2,000 rpm by turning the adjuster that made the cable SHORTER.

Man, this thing balanced perfectly.

 

Thanks everyone for the help. Every post had tidbits that helped me reason this out in my mind.

 

DR: did you stay dry yesterday? We had some extreme storms up here. It was so dark at 2:00 in the afternoon that it would have easily passed for midnight.

 

Evening  kruuuzn

 

Oh yes!, lots of rain, lots & lots of mud, the mud got so bad I couldn't read my GPS or dash, then we dodged fallen  trees until dark (very heavy winds knocked a bunch of big trees down). But it was a great time off-roading (lots of single track sugar sand) but the damp ground was very fast.

 

Today some rain this morning then it turned pretty decent for the ride home.  

 

Glad you figured your BBS adjustments out (it sort of pointed to something like that).

 

How did that high-tec manometer work out for you? 

[kruuuzn]

That sounds like a fun day. Some of my best riding memories are of flailing around in the mud. I think everyone should first learn how to ride in the dirt before even THINKING about a road bike.

 

My $8 manometer worked GREAT! I was so glad I returned the Carbtune I bought and built this instead. It was really handy also when I took the slack out of the lower cables.

[SAS]

na

[Daniel-J]

Not long ago I was cleaning the garage and it turned out that my floor fan broke down. It was old. Which one do you use? Can you recommend it? I found some, they don't seem bad.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Daniel-J said:

Not long ago I was cleaning the garage and it turned out that my floor fan broke down. It was old. Which one do you use? Can you recommend it? I found some, they don't seem bad.

 

Morning Daniel 

 

I use a few different fans-- I have a couple of old large (1960's) box fans that push a good amount of air. I use those if I need equal air follow to each side of the engine. I also have some homemade stands made to allow them to be lifted up so I can use then on running motorcycles on my motorcycle lift.

 

For most (quick balance or even a quick engine cool down) I have a homemade high flow squirrel cage type fan with larger 1/2 HP motor & larger diameter motor belt pulley mounted on an lawn fertilizer chassis that I just push to the motorcycle then plug in. This thing pushes a massive amount of air if needed & can help cool an engine (or me)  down fairly quickly. 

[PAS]

40 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Dirtrider said:

 

For most (quick balance or even a quick engine cool down) I have a homemade high flow squirrel cage type fan with larger 1/2 HP motor & larger diameter motor belt pulley mounted on an lawn fertilizer chassis that I just push to the motorcycle then plug in. This thing pushes a massive amount of air if needed & can help cool an engine (or me)  down fairly quickly. 

Blower cage out of an old furnace is what I also use!

[Dingo55]

Thought I would write now so you helpful souls might answer while I'm pumping out the zzzzz's

DR you mention that you use different size tubing and zip ties on your manometer

Could you expand on that a little please ie how much of the larger size tubing you use and are the zip ties used to restrict the tubing to slow flow rate?

You also mention something about catch containers on each side hose

I can't picture how that is set up

Think I'll make a 10' tall one tomorrow

With regards to overheating while doing the TB sync is it simply a matter of watching the RID

or are cooling fans a must?

Appreciate all the help

Amazing

Cheers

Mark

[dirtrider]

36 minutes ago, Dingo55 said:

Thought I would write now so you helpful souls might answer while I'm pumping out the zzzzz's

DR you mention that you use different size tubing and zip ties on your manometer

Could you expand on that a little please ie how much of the larger size tubing you use and are the zip ties used to restrict the tubing to slow flow rate?

You also mention something about catch containers on each side hose

I can't picture how that is set up

Think I'll make a 10' tall one tomorrow

With regards to overheating while doing the TB sync is it simply a matter of watching the RID

or are cooling fans a must?

Appreciate all the help

Amazing

 

Morning Mark

 

Zip ties are just to hold the tubing to the measuring stick, smaller hoses run form the U tube main U hose to the TB's so they fit tightly on the TB lower nipples.

 

I use slightly larger hose for the main U tube as it has less restriction to prevent fluid sticking (stiction) to the tubing inside (you don't actually need the larger main tubing but it does help).

 

On the catch containers, you can get by without them if careful to not allow a severely mis-balanced system suck the fluid out of the U tube.  (catch containers are just a safety to prevent fluid from being sucked into the engine).. See next post for info. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

More___

 

I use 2 catch containers, one container in each side inlet hose on one of my manometers. This is used for unknown, or way out of balance, engines as a fluid catch safety. If I know the engine is close on cross-side balance  then I usually just use a short handy U tube with no catch containers.  

 

I use 250ml plastic bottles with tight sealing caps (no vacuum leaks allowed), but you can use anything that seals tightly like pint or quart jars etc. 

 

If you make your U tube kind of high (about 3') then only put about 8"-10" of fluid in them then if things get out of hand the U tube device will suck air  (bubbles)  into the fluid before the fluid reaches the top of the U tube. Will still suck out a little fluid but  not the entire U tube full. 

 

  

[dirtrider]

More__

 

Another handy little trick is to completely clamp off one side hose between the engine TB nipple & the U tube device, a brake  hose clamping pliers works best but you can use a standard pair of needle nose pliers with a zip tie across the handles or across the needle ends.  

 

With one side hose completely closed off that prevents any reading  but also prevents any fluid from being sucked out of the U tube.  

 

You clamp it off during engine starting (usually when it sucks all the fluid out), THEN after engine is running you very slowly (slightly) open the needle nose pliers just enough (very/very little). When you see the fluid starting to creep up one side of the U then tighten the pliers back up (stops fluid sucking out),  then either make your next adjustment or shut the engine off & make an adjustment.

 

Using this method you can easily control how far the engine can suck the fluid up  one side of the U tube. 

 

When you get to the point that you can completely release the pliers then you are close enough to make the final precise adjustments without using restriction.   

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Dingo55 said:

 

With regards to overheating while doing the TB sync is it simply a matter of watching the RID

or are cooling fans a must?

 

Afternoon Mark

 

RID isn't a good gauge as it is just showing cooling oil temps, a better gauge is to see how hot your exhaust pipes are getting. If they start turning RED then you need engine cooling fans. 

 

It doesn't take long at all to overheat the exhaust at high idle or revving engine.

 

You can easily (fairly quickly) burn your tupperware where the exhaust pipes get close up top of the pipes.

 

For a quick revv once or twice then see where your TB sync is at then no additional cooling needed. If you plan on running it above idle for a while, or  plan of working on it for a while, then your really need cooling fans. 

[Dingo55]

Morning all

I'm up early to read replies which are much appreciated

Still half asleep

They will probably be clearer after my morning swim

One thing- Yesterday mine idled ok and levelled out on the manometer

but as soon as I slightly touched the throttle fluid straight up the R/H tube

A mate has loaned me a carburetor balancer so might play with that later to see if I can get this in the ballpark then hopefully can fine tune with the manometer. The tubes on it are only 3" tall with chrome balls as the indicator 

Thanks for all the help 

Cheers

Mark

The Southern ocean awaits 

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Dingo55 said:

Morning all

I'm up early to read replies which are much appreciated

Still half asleep

They will probably be clearer after my morning swim

One thing- Yesterday mine idled ok and levelled out on the manometer

but as soon as I slightly touched the throttle fluid straight up the R/H tube

A mate has loaned me a carburetor balancer so might play with that later to see if I can get this in the ballpark then hopefully can fine tune with the manometer. The tubes on it are only 3" tall with chrome balls as the indicator 

Thanks for all the help 

Cheers

Mark

The Southern ocean awaits 

Evening Mark

 

Start your balance quest by making darn sure the both side cables are FULLY seated in their respective adjuster furrels.

[Dingo55]

DR

How long did you make the larger size tubing and does the smaller size just fit tightly into that or does it need some sort of sealing at the joint?

Cheers

Mark

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, Dingo55 said:

DR

How long did you make the larger size tubing and does the smaller size just fit tightly into that or does it need some sort of sealing at the joint?

Cheers

Mark

Evening Mark

 

I have a number of U tube type manometers, on the one that I use most it is only about 2' (.6 meters) tall. I have a much taller one for use on really screwed up motorcycles as that allows more fluid travel before losing fluid. 

 

On the ones with different sized tubing I use actual reducer barbed plastic fittings at the juncture. I suppose you could just push the smaller tube into the top of the larger diameter as long as it seals with a leak-free interface.

 

You can just use what you have now if you_

 

First, pre-adjust the cables so both side throttle body cams start moving off the idle stop screws at the every same time (put a hand on each on side TB cam, then have someone slowly open & close the twist grip a few degrees). Adjust until they feel like they are opening together.    

 

Use the brake hose clamp pliers (or needle nose pliers as I mentioned above)-- Just open (release) enough to get  fluid movement in the U tube, then make an adjustment & repeat until you are close. Then you can run it with no pliers on the hose & do your final tuning.

 

 

[Dingo55]

Morning DR

Just saw your latest info and it reminded me of something that I noticed yesterday

The R/H cable appears to come into the adjuster at an angle and this doesn't allow it to return to it's reseat position properly as opposed to the L/H side which simply snaps back into the adjuster

Maybe a simple cable tie to make it a more direct approach to the adjuster is what's needed

 Thanks for all the help

Cheers

Mark

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, Dingo55 said:

Morning DR

Just saw your latest info and it reminded me of something that I noticed yesterday

The R/H cable appears to come into the adjuster at an angle and this doesn't allow it to return to it's reseat position properly as opposed to the L/H side which simply snaps back into the adjuster

Maybe a simple cable tie to make it a more direct approach to the adjuster is what's needed

 Thanks for all the help

Cheers

Mark

Evening Mark

 

Could be, also make sure that you have proper cable routing so the cable entrance into the adjuster furrel is somewhat straight. 

 

Also, make sure that your lower cables are FULLY plugged all the way into the bowden box. (sometimes they can get partially pulled out when working on other areas of the motorcycle)

 

If that cable is not fully bottomed out in the adjuster, or enters at a strange angle, then you will never get a  proper or lasting  balance.