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Jeff in VA

Terrible crash

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Miguel!

This event is making its rounds on many of the M/C boards tonight. Be careful out there. My plan is to ride early in the day and avoid the midday traffic. Miguel

 

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RandyShields

Horrible, horrible scene.  The families and friends must be devastated. Just speculation because the investigation is still underway, but it looks like truck skid marks crossing the line into the path of the motorcycles.  

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Twisties

Respect to our Marines, and ex-Marines.  

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dirtrider

This is a shame & shouldn't have happened.

 

When I hear multiple bikes & 'motorcycle club' mentioned in the same article with multiple causalities the first thing that comes to mind is side by side riding with no 3 second (or more) bike spacing. 

 

Probably nothing would have prevented the first bike or maybe even 2nd bike hit but the others should have been able to avoid or at least take to the ditch.

 

Damn, that is lot of deaths in one group!

 

 

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Skywagon

Blessings out to them and their families.  Tragic....I rarely ride in groups bigger than 3, but I always insist I bring up the rear if in a group, unless I am the navigator.  When we ride 3 we never ride side by side.  We do the stagger.  I ride mostly solo.

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roadscholar
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

some of those This is a shame & shouldn't have happened.

 

When I hear multiple bikes & 'motorcycle club' mentioned in the same article with multiple causalities the first thing that comes to mind is side by side riding with no 3 second (or more) bike spacing. 

 

Probably nothing would have prevented the first bike or maybe even 2nd bike hit but the others should have been able to avoid or at least take to the ditch.

 

Damn, that is lot of deaths in one group!

 

 

 

It was the first thing I thought of too , when will people wake up and learn how dangerous side by side and close riding is. Maybe, tragic as this is, preventative methods can be discussed on motorcycle forums to possibly change some of those behaviors. I don't know the details and that may not have been the case but somehow I doubt it. I see it all the time here, tightly packed side by side groups of 6-10 (no offense guys but it's always Harleys at least where I live), makes absolutely no sense. And the lead rider usually has his handlebar at or very near the centerline. All it takes is a momentarily inattentive driver's mirror to cause a domino effect. This instance appeared to be the truck crossing completely in their lane which is obviously different and worst case scenario.

 

When you're going just 50mph and oncoming traffic is too that's 100mph closing speed, every fraction of a second is critical to an avoidance maneuver, the longer you can extend that time the better your chances. Most of my riding years were as a ride leader and against the norm I always rode in the right track because your further away from oncoming traffic (particularly beneficial on blind turns as some drivers like to cheat by crossing over the line), the 2nd (staggered) rider has the benefit of being a second or two back and has more time to react to a situation. It's even more important in the woods on two track but usually the consequences aren't nearly as dire plus a dirtbike can change direction way quicker than a street bike.. 

   

It's just a sad situation and has put a damper on the weekend, been hard to stop dwelling on it.

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Twisties

It's too early to conclude anything about cause and spacing of this incident, but I will relay an experience we had back when we still lived in SLC.  They have or had an annual charity ride that drew thousands of bikers.  We forgot about it and got on the interstate heading for Park City.  As we approached the exit we encountered the ride, in tight formation for miles.  Could not get over to the exit.  As we got closer we encountered the result.  A multiple injury/fatality crash resulting from a cage trying to force their way through to the exit.    Super sad.  

In Utah 2 seconds following distance are required IIRC, but the law also requires you to maintain enough space to allow others to merge.  People we know said they didn't want to ride like that but the ride captains were being super strict in enforcing a tight formation ride.  

 

We rode in groups a few times at Torrey without any issue.  BMWST'ers usually leave plenty of space and respect a "ride your own ride" mentality.  We usually say where we'll end up for lunch, or at the end of the day, and pass safely.  Often some riders are grouped, but I've never seen anything like a formation ride.

 

On the other hand, we went on a few shop rides back in SLC, too.  On the second or third one I found someone riding more or less next to me, in my blind spot.  I dropped back to the rear and we never rode with that group again.  

 

These days we usually go to BMWST events and either don't ride because we spent a week riding to get there and are happy to be off the bikes for a bit, or we tend to ride on our own.  Sometimes we have ridden with others on the way to or from an event, that has always worked out well, from a safety pov anyway.  We usually ride our own rides, and wait up at the next turn.  

 

 

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Bill_Walker

I just read an update posted by CNN in which they interviewed a survivor:

 

Quote

"I was on inside," she told WMUR. "I saw the truck, I think. I don't even know. It was just all fire. I just laid my bike down and I just rolled.

 

So, yeah, formation riding, and the old Harley "I had to lay 'er down" bit were clearly contributors.  All else is still pending investigation.

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Ponch
5 minutes ago, Bill_Walker said:

I just read an update posted by CNN in which they interviewed a survivor:

 

 

So, yeah, formation riding, and the old Harley "I had to lay 'er down" bit were clearly contributors.  All else is still pending investigation.

 

No one lays a bike down on purpose. Probably locked up the brakes and lost control. Being on the ground sliding offers no advantage. 

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Bill_Walker
9 minutes ago, Ponch said:

No one lays a bike down on purpose. Probably locked up the brakes and lost control. Being on the ground sliding offers no advantage. 

 

No, I'm afraid there ARE people who believe in laying their bike down in an emergency.  It's folklore, and may have had some validity in the days of drum brakes and lousy tires, but it carries on in some circles.  It's certainly enough of a widely-known belief that the fact that it's wrong is covered in rider training curricula.  But people who only get trained by their buddies might never learn that.

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Green RT

I had the same thought too when I saw the Harleys in the photo, that the high death toll was a consequence of a large group riding in formation. Unfortunately, an accident like this probably won't change the preference of some groups to ride too close.

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PadG

I am waiting to hear the details as well.  My first thought, when I heard this in the news, was that the bikes were probably traveling in pack, just the way that I usually encounter here, and traveling at speeds probably below the road's speed limit (like here), and the pickup got impatient and tried to pass the pack. 

 

One of the reason why I always ride alone!

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Antimatter

I'm hoping someone will do a follow-up to detail what went wrong, and if there is a way to prevent similar accidents in the future.  But I'm afraid that generally speaking, there's no emphasis on accident forensics in this country as law enforcement and the insurance industry prefer to view this sort of thing from a epidemiological standpoint - people are bad drivers no matter what, and we just have to put enough airbags and crumple zones in vehicles to prevent fatalities.  That, and tech is much easier to market and make a profit on, whereas requiring drivers to invest in skills training and not get licenses until they can actually drive is not something that generally makes money.  And, because we don't have mass transit worth a damn here, everyone has to get a driver's license or else they won't be able to get around.  

In any case, lets put this in the back of our minds for a couple of weeks until (hopefully) some details come out that actually discuss what went wrong.  As to the 'lay it down' quote, remember that the news media often puts words in folk's mouths to get the scoop.  What you're hearing might not be the words of the rider, rather of a beat report who knows zero about motorcycles and is in a hurry to get a story filed.

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duckbubbles
2 minutes ago, Antimatter said:

 remember that the news media often puts words in folk's mouths to get the scoop.

 

The very first report I read early Saturday morning said that the truck driver was 25 and DUI.  That may be true, but that has not been included in subsequent reporting, as far as I know.

 

Frank

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, PadG said:

I am waiting to hear the details as well.  My first thought, when I heard this in the news, was that the bikes were probably traveling in pack, just the way that I usually encounter here, and traveling at speeds probably below the road's speed limit (like here), and the pickup got impatient and tried to pass the pack. 

 

One of the reason why I always ride alone!

 

Morning PadG

 

According to the accident report the bikes were going eastbound & the truck was heading westbound so that would not be a pass-the-pack  situation.

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Rogerl

From what I have read the group was 500 feet from the entrance to the hotel that they were staying in. Maybe the group was packed closer together than usual because they were slowing down in preparation for the turn into the hotel parking lot. It will be very interesting to find out what truly caused the accident. What a senseless loss of life.

 

Roger L

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Green RT

Recent reports have added the information that the truck driver had prior arrests for DUIs. I haven't seen anything about whether alcohol played a role in this incident.

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CommuterChris

Charged, possible heroin use but not confirmed

 

and apparently was at the beach the next day with his family after the wreck posing for pictures.  Also had outstanding charge for DUI two weeks prior. 

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Twisties
Quote

"It was just an explosion ... with parts and Al and everything flying through the air," he said. "He turned hard left into us and took out pretty much everyone behind me. The truck and trailer stayed attached and that is why it was so devastating ... because the trailer was attached and it was such a big trailer, it was like a whip. It just cleaned us out."

 

More details

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Marty Hill

Bill W. is correct.  I've seen HD riders lay the bike down rather than steer out of trouble.  Sad and true!

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PadG
22 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning PadG

 

According to the accident report the bikes were going eastbound & the truck was heading westbound so that would not be a pass-the-pack  situation.

Good morning,

 

Thanks DR.  I do recall one of the earlier post above saying something about skid marks veering into the lane of the riders, but I usually take early reports with a grain of salt.

 

The only new report that I had seen was in last night's news, where the driver was charged with multiple counts of (I think) homicide and other charges.

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Ponch

Now we hear of previous DUI's and they found empty packets that may have had heroin. This guy is a real winner.  He's going away for a long time. 

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Paul De

Such a terrible end to their ride and no way to put things right for the club members.  From the attached articles it seems that with the large trailer there is no way for some riders to escape.  I would guess the POs would have done some type of sobriety testing roadside and maybe even a breathalyzer on the pickup driver, but by releasing him to go home it would seem no blood sample would have been taken and proving some other compromised state at the time of the accident will be tough.  There were witnesses saying the truck & trailer were swerving around right before he apparently crossed over the center line and wiped out those riders.  Unstable rig,  driving too fast for the road conditions, distracted driving are all possibilities. I am sure they will be pulling his mobile phone activity around the time of the accident.  It would be sickening to learn that he was texting. 

 

Some of those poor souls were simply in the wrong place at that moment in time. This tragic event sort of has me freaked out, as it seems there was no way out for at least some of the riders. No safer spacing of riders, no situational awareness, or driving skills to get you clear of that truck and trailer.  It has made me recall a few of my own near misses over my decade of riding and if the variables of timing and position on the road at the moment of the near miss were different it would have ended me.  My oldest brother quit motorcycle riding 40 years ago because of drunk driver taking his friend down on the bike he bought from my brother. He wasn't killed but walks with cane and a limp to this day.

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Green RT
On 6/24/2019 at 7:49 PM, Marty Hill said:

Bill W. is correct.  I've seen HD riders lay the bike down rather than steer out of trouble.  Sad and true!

I have heard a lot about people "laying a bike down", but I have a hard time picturing how it really happens. First of all, how is it even done. Do you just intentionally jerk the handle bars to one side? Secondly, who would really do that versus getting hard on the brakes both front and rear? How do you practice that maneuver? I can see locking up one wheel and losing it, especially without ABS, but that would not really be "intentionally laying it down".

 

Would a sudden jerk of the handlebars even cause a bike to drop? It seems more likely it would just result in a sudden change of direction. That might lead to a fall pretty quickly, but it doesn't seem quite like what is meant by laying it down.

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Miguel!

Did this event cause anyone to think about stop riding PTWer? 

I did, briefly. It was more of a question to ask myself rather than an event that scared me into considering it. If you are over the age of ~45, you likely have sensed your own mortality and likely find yourself asking such questions. 

None of those rider were doing anything more risky than any of us do everyday we ride. It was a random event. Timing is everything in life.

We have all experienced that event when we look up and realize we are aimed into the oncoming lane or off the road or someone is in your lane headed right at you. What do you do? I try to practice for those events by riding defensively and when in a panic, practice target focus fixation to get me out of harms way. I usually focusing on the right edge of my lane with the hope that it just becomes reflexive. 

Despite riding for decades, I've never taken a riding class. This event has caused me to dig into local classes and I hope to take one later this summer. I've also ordered David L. Hough's Proficient Motorcycling books. These are classic books that every two wheeler should read, or so I've been told. But despite being in my Amazon shopping cart for years, I've never ordered it. I'll change that in the next few days. 

Also, despite being in the news for the last few days, Ms Miguel has not brought up the subject and I've been hesitant to bring it up as well. I know how that conversation will go. "It won't happen to me, I ride very defensively, try to avoid putting myself in dangerous situations and practice being safe." I bet at least some of the NH riders also thought the same thing. But I'm sure Ms Miguel would prefer me not to ride. So its a risk we all take every time we mount the bike. I often utter to myself to "Ride like I want to ride another day" and don't take being on the bike so cavalierly. I find myself running less yellow light, trying to be more aware of my surroundings and being especially cautious of intersections. 

Ride safe, whatever that means to you.

Best
Miguel

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CommuterChris

well in this case from some descriptions no amount of defensive riding would have helped, one rider stated that the trailer basically swept across the lane.

 

 

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Green RT said:

I have heard a lot about people "laying a bike down", but I have a hard time picturing how it really happens. First of all, how is it even done. Do you just intentionally jerk the handle bars to one side? Secondly, who would really do that versus getting hard on the brakes both front and rear? How do you practice that maneuver? I can see locking up one wheel and losing it, especially without ABS, but that would not really be "intentionally laying it down".

 

Would a sudden jerk of the handlebars even cause a bike to drop? It seems more likely it would just result in a sudden change of direction. That might lead to a fall pretty quickly, but it doesn't seem quite like what is meant by laying it down.

 

Morning  Green RT

 

Laying down a street motorcycle is mainly a cop-out excuse for the riders  poor braking ability in an emergency. As you noted it is very difficult to lay a motorcycle down at speed & even more difficult to do it with enough precision to predict where it will go.

If you don't practice laying a motorcycle down so you have a feel & muscle memory then how could that ever be the first thing that you think about & do in a real emergency. (it just isn't going to happen). If a rider needs to think about an evasive move then it is usually too late to implement it in a real emergency.

 

Oh, the bike could go down alright but not by intent, but by poor brake control.

 

You can't just jerk the handlebars as a motorcycle reacts by counter steering but you can use a combination of braking (mainly rear brake) & handlebar control to get the bike to lay down at speed.  But this takes practice, or luck, as it can easily go high side & flip the rider over the top.

 

It's mainly a big  Harley thing but that is more due to the rear brake pedal position & actuation than being Harley rider or Harley mentality. On most large Harley's the rear brake pedal is positioned forward with a floor board plate under the braking foot.

 

In a hard or panic stop the natural momentum of the riders  braking leg & momentum of the riders body sliding forward can keep adding rear brake pedal pressure & lock the rear brake (on bikes without ABS systems). With all that momentum & weight acting on the rear brake pedal it is difficult to modulate the rear brake with precision. For normal  braking the rider can leave their heel on the foot plate so brake modulation is easier  but in a panic situation it is a natural thing to lift the foot & slam on the rear brake just like in an automobile.  

 

Plus some large bike riders just haven't been properly trained to use enough front brake in an emergency so they rely mostly on the rear brake for normal stopping. This is bad as they then naturally go to the rear brake in an emergency situation.

 

The other thing that  CAN come into play (on any motorcycle) is without practice and in high stress situations the rider naturally reverts to an automobile type reaction & tries to steer the bike like a car (opposite the correct counter-steer required).

 

Then there is target fixation (a big problem for some drivers/riders). This is a problem all of it's own & for some riders is deadly in an emergency.  

 

I have taken some high stress rider training  over the years (mostly police type training) & some of those required extensive rear brake lock-up control (back then it was non-ABS & large heavy bike). 

 

I, & a number of dirt riders that I ride with,  have done some practice laying a motorcycle down at somewhat lower speeds (20-30-40 mph)  but obviously not on pavement or with a large bike (mainly soft sand & much lighter dirt bikes).  This isn't/wasn't done to use what we learned  in a street type crash situation but to be able to prevent our bikes from going high-side when we over-cook a single track direction change or miss a natural corner berm at speed  &  slip over it.

 

 

 

 

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CommuterChris
1 hour ago, RandyShields said:

More on this situation.  The driver should not have had his commercial license.  The head of the MA Registry of Motor Vehicles just resigned due to failures there.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/head-of-massachusetts-registry-of-motor-vehicles-resigns-after-fatal-new-hampshire-crash/ar-AADrtns?ocid=spartandhp

 

 

he flipped a semi not many weeks prior

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Paul De

DR explains it well.  I think there is some combination of panic braking where the rear tire begins to skid and the rear of the bike swings out to one side or the other and the rider steers the bike into a low side crash.  The example in my head is if a car pulls out of a parking lot right in front of a rider the rider responds with counter steering left and slams on the brakes which causes the rear wheel to swing out right and then maintaing these inputs until you low side flop and skid into the car.  I don't think you even need to lock the rear per se because the hard deceleration from a handful of front break could lift the rear wheel enough to get it skidding out in the opposite direction the rider is trying to steer.

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Green RT
1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Laying down a street motorcycle is mainly a cop-out excuse for the riders  poor braking ability in an emergency. …

 

 

So you are saying essentially, it is unlikely that people saying they "had to lay the bike down" actually did it intentionally. More likely, they lost control under hard braking, the back end broke loose and the bike went down. After the fact, rather than admit that they lost control, they say "I laid the bike down". Makes more sense to me. I just can't picture intentionally doing it. It would need practice, and at least on the street, it is too destructive to practice.

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Paul De

I agree.  The folks I've spoken to who had used the "had to lay'r down" statement left me with the impression that they lost control resulting in a low side crash.  I would guess it would be rare for a rider to perceive less risk by laying the bike down and ending the crash under the obstacle they struck.  Maybe to slide under a semi truck trailer but that would really require the rider isn't so overwhelmed to put that together as an escape route.   The only riders I can think of that lay it down on purpose are stunt riders working in the TV and film industry.

 

In the tragic crash we are speaking about the trailer had no room to slide under and if some of the riders did lay it down it seems unavoidable as no way to steer clear and no room to stop

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Green RT said:

So you are saying essentially, it is unlikely that people saying they "had to lay the bike down" actually did it intentionally. More likely, they lost control under hard braking, the back end broke loose and the bike went down. After the fact, rather than admit that they lost control, they say "I laid the bike down". Makes more sense to me. I just can't picture intentionally doing it. It would need practice, and at least on the street, it is too destructive to practice.

 

 

Morning Green RT

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

Show me ANY rider that first thinks of laying a bike down when someone pulls out on front of them. First is hard braking, then maybe avoidance after the hard braking. Most just lock the rear brake then get what they get, then make up the lay-down excuse for poor braking control.

 

I try to  ride avoidance first then go to braking, or most likely avoidance during braking  (this is what I practice daily & have for years)  & I usually do avoid before or during braking but that only works in mild encounters or if I see the threat a little in advance.

 

The sudden threat appearance (like deer jumping out of a blind ditch) usually results in braking first then avoidance while braking (or complete brake release & a line change avoidance).  

 

I ride fast  & practice avoidance continually (seldom brake when I can ride around the threat)  but even though I have a basic avoidance muscle memory from years of practice I still get on the brakes hard for a nano second  with very sudden unexpected  threat appearance  until I understand the situation & my subconscious takes over to find me an out.

 

 

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Skywagon

Not sure how even if you desired you could do it with ABS.  A high side is almost inevitable.  If I had the choice and the skills, in most situations on the street, I would prefer maximum braking and let ABS do the best it can versus trying to throw down a 1000lb bike into a low side.  I'm not sure even if you could do this it would be an advantage as your ability to control direction is close to zero.

 

When we were kids we use to do this on bicycles quite often but always in dirt.  If you have a bicycle and don't mind some road rash or torn up clothes...try it and you will see it's not that easy to do. 

 

Still I feel for the families of this tragic event....out for a ride and the worst happens.  Blessings to them all.

 

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dirtrider
52 minutes ago, Paul De said:

DR explains it well.  I think there is some combination of panic braking where the rear tire begins to skid and the rear of the bike swings out to one side or the other and the rider steers the bike into a low side crash.  The example in my head is if a car pulls out of a parking lot right in front of a rider the rider responds with counter steering left and slams on the brakes which causes the rear wheel to swing out right and then maintaing these inputs until you low side flop and skid into the car.  I don't think you even need to lock the rear per se because the hard deceleration from a handful of front break could lift the rear wheel enough to get it skidding out in the opposite direction the rider is trying to steer.

 

 

Morning Paul

 

That is what they used to teach in some of the police courses (well hopefully without the crash part). With ABS on most bikes now it is probably taught differently.

 

The basic thought was that once the rear wheel locked to keep it locked until the speed was low enough while hopefully keeping the bike upright & pointing somewhat forward. In fact they made us practice the rear lock-up & slide many times over at ever increasing speed.  ( I struggled with this for a while due to my dirt riding back ground where we would release the rear brake & throttle up once the bike was pointed in the direction we wanted to go)

 

With a large bike on pavement if the locked rear brake isn't released  at the correct bike attitude & with extreme precision then the  rear wheel spin-up with sudden regain of  traction can flip the bike high side pretty darn quickly.  

 

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
9 hours ago, Green RT said:

I have heard a lot about people "laying a bike down", but I have a hard time picturing how it really happens. First of all, how is it even done. Do you just intentionally jerk the handle bars to one side? Secondly, who would really do that versus getting hard on the brakes both front and rear? How do you practice that maneuver? I can see locking up one wheel and losing it, especially without ABS, but that would not really be "intentionally laying it down".

 

Would a sudden jerk of the handlebars even cause a bike to drop? It seems more likely it would just result in a sudden change of direction. That might lead to a fall pretty quickly, but it doesn't seem quite like what is meant by laying it down.

 

Countersteering makes the bike lean; when the bike is leaned enough, you turn the bars the other way to lock in that lean angle and ride through the turn.

 

ISTM that you should just be able to sustain such a countersteer until the bike falls over.  Want the bike to fall on its left side?  Push forward on the left grip, and keep pushing until the bike leans so much that it falls over on its left side.  As such, a sudden jerk-and-release input wouldn't do it; you have to sustain the countersteer input.  That said, the harder your sustained push is, the faster the bike will lean over (think of how hard your handlebar inputs are during an emergency swerve maneuver).

 

Having said that, I don't think anybody who says "I had to lay it down" does it this way.  Pretty sure they just lock up the rear brake and let the back end slide out.

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Ponch
49 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Countersteering makes the bike lean; when the bike is leaned enough, you turn the bars the other way to lock in that lean angle and ride through the turn.

 

ISTM that you should just be able to sustain such a countersteer until the bike falls over.  Want the bike to fall on its left side?  Push forward on the left grip, and keep pushing until the bike leans so much that it falls over on its left side.  As such, a sudden jerk-and-release input wouldn't do it; you have to sustain the countersteer input.  That said, the harder your sustained push is, the faster the bike will lean over (think of how hard your handlebar inputs are during an emergency swerve maneuver).

 

Having said that, I don't think anybody who says "I had to lay it down" does it this way.  Pretty sure they just lock up the rear brake and let the back end slide out.

That may only be part of it. I've seen situations as such where they also hit the rear brake too hard and lock it up. Why someone would depend on the rear brake to slow down/stop in such situations is a little beyond me. Basically, they lost control through excessive input/reaction. 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
14 minutes ago, Ponch said:

I've seen situations as such where they also hit the rear brake too hard and lock it up. Why someone would depend on the rear brake to slow down/stop in such situations is a little beyond me. Basically, they lost control through excessive input/reaction. 

 

This is people who don't have ABS, haven't had training or practice using the front brake, and are afraid of locking up the front wheel.  It's one of the findings from the Hurt Report:

 

"Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent."

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RPG

This terrible incident has certainly given many riders cause to consider hanging it up. Me included.

 

I

 

 

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Marty Hill

RPG, I'm truly sorry to hear that the incident has caused you to think about giving up riding.  Good luck with your final decision.

Marty

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dirtrider
15 minutes ago, RPG said:

This terrible incident has certainly given many riders cause to consider hanging it up. Me included.

 

I

 

 

 

 

Afternoon Rick

 

What is the alternative, stay home?  I was watching the evening news the other day & up in Michigan a huge cement mixer rolled over on a car & crushed the driver killing them.  Car had nothing to do with the rollover, it was just minding it's own business & was crushed like a bug.

 

With your track day training you probably stand a better chance than most riders at avoiding problems.

 

I do remember you having a  deer strike problem a while back  though.   Those darn rats-with-hooves bother me more than errant cars as cars are fairly predictable & stick to the roads. 

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Pappy35
31 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

I was watching the evening news the other day & up in Michigan a huge cement mixer rolled over on a car & crushed the driver killing them.  Car had nothing to do with the rollover, it was just minding it's own business & was crushed like a bug.

 

Same thing happened on 57th and 8th ave. in Manhattan back in the mid-80's. Guy double parked to get a pack of smokes and his wife and three kids got squashed by a cement truck turning onto 8th. That poor guy could have waited to get smokes, those riders could have just had another cup of coffee or gone 5 mph faster or slower, or the dirtbag would have taken the time to snort one more line. Life is tricky.

 

We all think about it, "...but what if that was me?" it's natural. But, if I stopped doing something every time some freak accident happened I'd be locked  in my basement and look like Gollum (from Lord of the Ring).

 

What happened to these folks is tragic, no two ways around that, but really, what are the odds of that, or something like that, happening to you? But for a twitch in in time, that could have just as easily have missed those folks and just hit another car or run off the road or just been another close call for that dirtbag.

 

I thought about hanging it up for about 10 seconds then threw a leg over and started her up for yet another commute to work.

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RPG

Good Morning D.R.,

 

Yes, I've hit two deer and was lucky to survive both with only minor injuries. And yes, constant training does one a confident rider make. The deer are all over the place in MI, as well as probably every other state. I see at least one new kill each day commuting to work in Lansing.

 

Since moving to southern MI last summer, I've gone exploring the 2 lane roads quite a bit.

 

On just about every ride, there's been a vehicle coming my way, either hugging the yellow line or outright in my lane, the driver's eyes down, obviously engaged on their stupid cellphones, telling me the "distracted driver" phenomenon is out of control. 

 

Then we hear that the NH driver wasn't even supposed to be driving and I wonder, "who will protect us from our protectors?"

 

RPG

 

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bdfbeemer
17 hours ago, RPG said:

This terrible incident has certainly given many riders cause to consider hanging it up. Me included.

 

I

 

 

I don't know about many. This could have happened to a car on any other vehicle. The distracted drivers you see every day give me more concern.

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Paul De

I think all motorcyclists understand the inherent added risk of riding and many mitigate the risk through skill development.  What makes this one weigh on our minds is the number of riders who were killed and that these riders had no way to escape.  I haven't gotten to the point of considering to quit riding, but this terrible event adds to my concern that year after year we seem to have to negotiate the roads with more and more bad drivers.  I guess at some point all the fun gets sucked out of riding on the road, but I have no idea where that point is for me.

 

A few years ago a coworker and I did a back of the napkin reckoning of the risk of riding...I won't insult the actuaries out there by calling it an analysis. It was oversimplified and only attempted to understand a single motorcycle crash.  We concluded that a mature rider on a motorcycle has a similar risk of a crash that a 17 year old male given the keys to dad's sports car would have. 

 

1 hour ago, RPG said:

Yes, I've hit two deer and was lucky to survive both with only minor injuries. And yes, constant training does one a confident rider make. The deer are all over the place in MI, as well as probably every other state. I see at least one new kill each day commuting to work in Lansing.

Same in Wisconsin, but worry more about the wild Turkeys these days.  They were introduced to this state in the mid 1980's to entice more sport hunting and 30 some years later they are everywhere.  Deer tend to be active Sunup and Sundown with extra activity during the mating season, but those damn Turkeys are everywhere all the time.  I would guess hitting a 15 lb bird would more than just ruin you day.

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RPG
1 minute ago, Paul De said:

I think all motorcyclists understand the inherent added risk of riding and many mitigate the risk through skill development.  What makes this one weigh on our minds is the number of riders who were killed and that these riders had no way to escape.  I haven't gotten to the point of considering to quit riding, but this terrible event adds to my concern that year after year we seem to have to negotiate the roads with more and more bad drivers.  I guess at some point all the fun gets sucked out of riding on the road, but I have no idea where that point is for me.

 

A few years ago a coworker and I did a back of the napkin reckoning of the risk of riding...I won't insult the actuaries out there by calling it an analysis. It was oversimplified and only attempted to understand a single motorcycle crash.  We concluded that a mature rider on a motorcycle has a similar risk of a crash that a 17 year old male given the keys to dads sports car would have. 

 

Same in Wisconsin, but worry more about the wild Turkeys these days.  They were introduced to this state in the mid 1980's to entice more sport hunting and 30 some years later they are everywhere.  Deer tend to be active Sunup and Sundown with extra activity during the mating season, but those damn Turkeys are everywhere all the time.  I would guess hitting a 15 lb bird would more than just ruin you day.

Good points Paul,

 

I don't think it's in my DNA to actually give up riding, but boy, 7 killed in one accident, is really hard to comprehend. My God, what a tragedy.

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Twisties
On 6/27/2019 at 7:53 AM, Paul De said:

We concluded that a mature rider on a motorcycle has a similar risk of a crash that a 17 year old male given the keys to dad's sports car would have. 

 

I did a similar back of the napkin calculation and concluded that overall lifetime risk of dying in an MVA was about 1:200 and overall lifetime risk of dying in a moto crash was about the same.  However, cars have gotten a lot safer since I did it.  

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Green RT
On 6/30/2019 at 10:05 AM, Twisties said:

 

I did a similar back of the napkin calculation and concluded that overall lifetime risk of dying in an MVA was about 1:200 and overall lifetime risk of dying in a moto crash was about the same.  However, cars have gotten a lot safer since I did it.  

 

So, I have a 1:200 chance of dying in a motorcycle accident over the course of my lifetime*. But considering all the risks in life, I have a 1:1 chance of dying. I am less concerned about dying in a motorcycle crash, than I am of dying in nursing home with Alzheimer's. I have sympathy for the families and friends of the victims. But for the victims themselves there are worse ways to go than doing something you love.

 

*Actually that statistic sounds high to me.

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Paul De

I didn't distinguish between a crash that is fatal, just a crash.  That said there are no fender benders when riding a motorcycle.

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