Hard to trade

[Knobby10]

Given my warranty just ran out and I always wanted a red RT and the new engine interested me, I went to my dealer, where I bought my bike, and politely asked what it would take to trade my '16 with 20K miles in for the new bike. The new RT's MSRP was just shy of $25K. I was shocked when was told my bike was worth $9250 on trade giving a balance due in excess of $15K. 

 

I know most people think their equipment is worth more than it actually is but........

 

IF I decide to buy a new bike, I think the only way to make it happen is to sell my bike privately for an amount somewhere between what the dealer offered me and an amount that I think is it is worth. That way the buyer gets a better deal than any dealer would give them and I don't suffer quite so much of a "bleed." 

 

Anyone else have a similar experience lately?

[MichiganBob]

Seems low. Kelly has the typical trade in for a 2016 RT at 11, 500. They should be willing to give you that much. Maybe another dealer will?

 

Bob

[TEWKS]

2014 RT, really low miles and a 2012 GS with low miles. I was offered 20K for the pair on trade. In my mind that broke down to 12 & 8 but I never saw it on paper.

 

They're sticking it to you, me thinks.

[realshelby]

Always get more than one offer. You might be surprised what other dealers might offer, even it they don't have a bike you want to buy!

[cadmanpilot]

Last fall I purchased a immaculate loaded 2015 with 9K miles from my local dealer for $12,500. I could have purchased a new 2017 there for just over $19K but the 2015 was too good of a deal.

 

Paul

[Antimatter]

It's a buyers market right now.  My perception is that there's a glut of used bikes out there, so getting top dollar for a trade-in could be a difficult proposition.  Selling on the private market is the only way to maximize your return.

[Paul De]

Yes, a lot of factors to consider. If the dealer has bikes on a floor plan and will soon have to pay up, that dealer might be more motivated to get the new machine off the floor. 

 

And by the way, every time I am at the dealer I have to cover my eyes and walk fast past the Mars Red RT....My wife would kill me if I went to the shop to buy oil and brought the oil home in the Mars Red container!

[Hoghead]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:14 PM, Knobby10 said:

Given my warranty just ran out and I always wanted a red RT and the new engine interested me, I went to my dealer, where I bought my bike, and politely asked what it would take to trade my '16 with 20K miles in for the new bike. The new RT's MSRP was just shy of $25K. I was shocked when was told my bike was worth $9250 on trade giving a balance due in excess of $15K. 

 

I know most people think their equipment is worth more than it actually is but........

 

IF I decide to buy a new bike, I think the only way to make it happen is to sell my bike privately for an amount somewhere between what the dealer offered me and an amount that I think is it is worth. That way the buyer gets a better deal than any dealer would give them and I don't suffer quite so much of a "bleed." 

 

Anyone else have a similar experience lately?

Talked with a Dealer about trading my 2014 loaded R1200RT and they offered between 5-7K depending on condition. My bike had 11,400 miles on it.......I didn't trade

[RTDubya]

Consider waiting a year, then picking up a 2019 1250. My dealer is selling left over 2018 RTs for $18,895. That's a far cry from the near 25 grand they were listed at last year. A 2016 RT should fetch well over $11,000 on the public used market. The only advantage to trading in is that you pay less taxes, and no hassles selling your bike. That puts about two grand in your pocket for your troubles.

[John in VA]

I've bought two RTs from a local dealer who offered the option of trade-in or resell on 10% commission/consignment. Trade-in quotes were low but they got me good prices on two consignment sales. Not all dealers do consignments but you could ask. Another dealer is equidistant from me but their new prices were far higher and they don't do consignments.

[Blap]

I went to trade my '18 RT with 2000 miles on a new GS and they offered me $14,000  This was my 4th bike from that dealer.

[Knobby10]

It sure seems for what is supposed to be a slow down in the overall market that the BMW crews aren't trying too hard keep faithful customers!! Just sayin'

[AndyS]

Hi Guys & Gals, you seem to be expecting your dealerships to give you good money for your out of date motorcycles? Why would they do that? They then have to take the risk when they sell them on to other customers. Stop giving the dealers hard times over this. If you want a new machine, sell your old bike privately if you want good money. If you want a quick deal, then part exchange is the way to go., but you shouldn't expect good value from the deal. Your bike may be the best thing ever, from your point of view, but it really is just another secondhand out of date bike.

[T-88]

AndyS,

 

Your comments are bang on.  Dealers are in business to make money.  If the powersports industry is anything like the car industry, dealers actually make more money selling used vehicles than they do selling new ones.

 

I for one am more than willing to trade in a bike and get a lower price than I would by selling it privately, because I don't want the endless number of idiots calling or emailing me with stupid questions, low ball offers, scammers, you name it, nor do I want strangers coming to my residence.  But that's me. 

 

And where I live in Alberta, Canada, our 5-percent GST sales tax is payable only on the difference between the trade-in value and the selling price of the new vehicle. So not paying tax on the full selling price of the new bike eases the pain.

 

If you sell your bike  privately, you WILL sell it for more than the dealer trade-in value in most cases, but it's not worth ithe trouble and potential trouble FOR ME.

 

Good luck on whichever way you decide to proceed.

 

Tim

[MichiganBob]

Good Evening,

 

I just traded my 02 and 12 RT for a 2018RT. We agreed on the Blue Book trade in value for a bike in "good" condition. I tried to get a little more because of the farkles but they were firm about not getting into the valuation of add on's business. Can't blame them but it was worth a try. Yes, I could have tried to sell them but I turned 70 this year and this changed my outlook. Haggling with folks over bikes and prices and calls and emails and having to stay at home and wait and hope they don't get lost and freaking out while they take my bike down my quarter mile frost heaved gravel road and have to stop on a slight hill to look carefully both ways at cars coming around a blind curve --- no way. All I want to do is ride, play golf, and kayak and work a little part-time. 

 

As the Desiderata says, "Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth ....

 

Take good care.

 

B

[MichiganBob]

My BMW dealer called me today to thank me for the purchase. He was out of town during the transaction. He said that sales of both new and used bikes was significantly low this year, especially the used market for 1100 and 1150 bikes. I wonder why sales are off.?I expect that there are multiple reasons. Is motorcycling going the way of golf with less interest my our  youngest generations. Or is the interest there but not for the BMW? Any ideas?

 

B

[Ponch]

1 hour ago, MichiganBob said:

My BMW dealer called me today to thank me for the purchase. He was out of town during the transaction. He said that sales of both new and used bikes was significantly low this year, especially the used market for 1100 and 1150 bikes. I wonder why sales are off.?I expect that there are multiple reasons. Is motorcycling going the way of golf with less interest my our  youngest generations. Or is the interest there but not for the BMW? Any ideas?

 

B

 

Relationships are something of the past with dealers. Salesmen no longer work places very long and there's no consistency. I've never had any dealer call me up to thank me and I had one call me to ask if I wanted to trade up. Of course this was after I was bitten by the AFM bug in a Suburban. No more GMs for me and I told him so. The BMW dealers where I live aren't so good. One is king of the upsell, push service plans that add thousands to the price and the other is a revolving door for salespeople. I've had issues with warranty service with both. I've heard good things about Iron Horse, but it's a couple hours away. Thing is, there's really little incentive for me to buy new anyway. My salary is a bit lower than when I bought my RT and the prices have gone up a lot and I haven't been riding much anyway. The only manufacturer that seems to at least make the appearance it cares for it's customers is HD, but I really don't see the value there. If you've found a good dealer, stick with them as they are rare these days. 

[Blap]

Dang, trades not worth much when people can't even sell their RTs.   Saw this on craigslist,  not mine, just saw this ad.  5000 miles.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcy/d/livermore-2017-bmw-r1200rt/6921835431.html

[LAF]

Yes those of us on 1200's can expect to take a real beating on selling or trading our bikes.

 

I am OK as I want no other and have no lust for a 1250. 

 

I wanted their new transmission so I traded my 15 RT for a 17.5 GS low.  I am thrilled and am pretty sure this is my last motorcycle.  I even left off the TFT screen in favor of analog, and passed on the spoke wheels.

 

Not going to get any better as the next Gen of the LC will be a redesign in a year or two once they are sure of the 1250 motor.

 

Again I will ride my antique 1200 into my last riding years grinning like the old fool I am.

[BrianM]

Traded in my 2011 RT on a 2018 GSA in September. Dealers website still has my old RT listed for sale.

[Rob Nowell]

The key point here is that you still owe $15k.  Of course you will not get a good trade-in when you're upside down.

[alegerlotz]

21 hours ago, Rob Nowell said:

The key point here is that you still owe $15k.  Of course you will not get a good trade-in when you're upside down.

 

The trade in value/amount offered should be the same, regardless of how much you owe on the bike being traded in.

 

After that, its all just math.  

[Rinkydink]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:06 AM, LAF said:

Again I will ride my antique 1200 into my last riding years grinning like the old fool I am.

I agree. My ‘17RT was all I ever wanted when I purchased it. At 63 I think it will be my last. 

[Ponch]

On 6/28/2019 at 5:06 AM, LAF said:

Yes those of us on 1200's can expect to take a real beating on selling or trading our bikes.

 

I am OK as I want no other and have no lust for a 1250. 

 

I wanted their new transmission so I traded my 15 RT for a 17.5 GS low.  I am thrilled and am pretty sure this is my last motorcycle.  I even left off the TFT screen in favor of analog, and passed on the spoke wheels.

 

Not going to get any better as the next Gen of the LC will be a redesign in a year or two once they are sure of the 1250 motor.

 

Again I will ride my antique 1200 into my last riding years grinning like the old fool I am.

It’s hardly an antique. Mine will be soon enough.

[John in VA]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:31 PM, Ponch said:

 

Relationships are something of the past with dealers. Salesmen no longer work places very long and there's no consistency. I've never had any dealer call me up to thank me and I had one call me to ask if I wanted to trade up. Of course this was after I was bitten by the AFM bug in a Suburban. No more GMs for me and I told him so. The BMW dealers where I live aren't so good. One is king of the upsell, push service plans that add thousands to the price and the other is a revolving door for salespeople. I've had issues with warranty service with both. I've heard good things about Iron Horse, but it's a couple hours away. Thing is, there's really little incentive for me to buy new anyway. My salary is a bit lower than when I bought my RT and the prices have gone up a lot and I haven't been riding much anyway. The only manufacturer that seems to at least make the appearance it cares for it's customers is HD, but I really don't see the value there. If you've found a good dealer, stick with them as they are rare these days.

 

FWIW I've bought two new RTs from my local dealer (who also sold my RT trades on consignment for me). On both purchases after the paperwork was signed the owner stopped by the salesman's desk to personally thank me for my business and to shake my hand. Weird, I know!

[Ponch]

40 minutes ago, John in VA said:

 

FWIW I've bought two new RTs from my local dealer (who also sold my RT trades on consignment for me). On both purchases after the paperwork was signed the owner stopped by the salesman's desk to personally thank me for my business and to shake my hand. Weird, I know!

 

Probably the exception rather than the rule. Maybe I've had one dealer that wanted to keep my business. Most I have seen don't seem to care, but a lot of dealers out where I am now are corporate dealerships, especially cars. I've heard good things about Iron Horse, but they are independent I think. Gina's in Iowa was good too, but they retired and sold their business. 

[Indy Dave]

It's worth noting that most customers can hardly be classified as looking for a relationship. Or maybe they are, but only until they find something cheaper elsewhere.

[Ponch]

3 minutes ago, Indy Dave said:

It's worth noting that most customers can hardly be classified as looking for a relationship. Or maybe they are, but only until they find something cheaper elsewhere.

Probably so. Look at the success of the discount stores and the rise of China. Americans like stuff cheap. That said, it goes both ways. Corporate dealers are about volume. It's a wonder to see the same sales people working in the same place for more than 6 months. 

[Antimatter]

The Amazonification of the US will probably be the demise of a lot of dealerships.  And, if you think in terms of capitalism, dealers don't really add anything to the buying experience, except as a markup between the manufacturer and the customer.  I personally don't see why I can't go to a manufacturer show room, see the bike, order it and have it assembled by a manufacturer's rep (or by myself), and have it dropped off (or I go pick it up).  Why do I have to pay extra to deal with someone who makes the buying experience worse, and acts as an impediment when I'm trying to get service, or have a warranty/recall dealt with?  I can buy stock through a discount broker for $4.95/trade, and the days of brokers charging hundreds (or thousands) of dollars in commission are dying out (thankfully).  With the internet, anyone who thinks they're going to act as a middleman and reap big rewards might as well try and go get a job at Sears.

I know that sounds harsh, but has there is more information and the ability to buy a bike anywhere and have it delivered to your door, how are dealerships supposed to stay in business?  There will probably always be a market for boutique stuff and for customers who like a lot of a$$-kissing, but for someone with an internet connection and two working brain cells, there's no point.

[Ponch]

17 minutes ago, Antimatter said:

The Amazonification of the US will probably be the demise of a lot of dealerships.  And, if you think in terms of capitalism, dealers don't really add anything to the buying experience, except as a markup between the manufacturer and the customer.  I personally don't see why I can't go to a manufacturer show room, see the bike, order it and have it assembled by a manufacturer's rep (or by myself), and have it dropped off (or I go pick it up).  Why do I have to pay extra to deal with someone who makes the buying experience worse, and acts as an impediment when I'm trying to get service, or have a warranty/recall dealt with?  I can buy stock through a discount broker for $4.95/trade, and the days of brokers charging hundreds (or thousands) of dollars in commission are dying out (thankfully).  With the internet, anyone who thinks they're going to act as a middleman and reap big rewards might as well try and go get a job at Sears.

I know that sounds harsh, but has there is more information and the ability to buy a bike anywhere and have it delivered to your door, how are dealerships supposed to stay in business?  There will probably always be a market for boutique stuff and for customers who like a lot of a$$-kissing, but for someone with an internet connection and two working brain cells, there's no point.

 

If Dell and Apple can have online ordering for computers in the configuration you want, so can car and bike companies. It would benefit the vehicle manufacturers and customer, dealers not so much. 

[John Ranalletta]

Dell and Apple don't take trade-ins and deal with customers who hide defects in trade vehicles; and, who have an unreasonably high estimate of the trade in's value. 

 

Also, their inventory turns at a much faster rate.

 

Re: cars and bikes, most customers want it all, i.e. low prices on the new unit and high price on the trade.  Factories aren't geared to deal with that; thus, they shift it to its dealer network to disintermediate the risk.  Tesla takes trades but AFAIK, it doesn't haggle.  

 

If customers were willing to take the extant auto/bike auction price for the trade without question, buying direct would be a cinch.  When people were trading SUVs on subcompacts. my client, a Ford dealer, had an open line to the auction.  He'd offer the current auction value price to the customer on the trade.  That really hasn't changed.  LIkely, it's CarMax' method of setting prices.

 

A car is considered "sold" when the factory ships it to the dealer; thus, dealers, who "floor plan" their inventory are under great pressure to move units, maintaining a target, average gross profit per unit.  They can make more profit on the used cars they sell because there aren't a dozen other dealers selling the identical item; but the factory puts on immense pressure to sell new units.   Another client who had 28 dealerships said in a sales meeting I attended, "The only reason we're in the new car business is to sell used cars."

 

Most dealers know their customers are trying to screw them (buyers are liars); so, they're just getting out in front of the curve, not only in the sale of the unit, but in add-on items the F&I people push when signing the deal.  BTW, the "F&I Guy" is usually the highest-paid employee in the dealership, being paid a % of sales.  Want to get a feel of what goes on in a dealership when customers aren't listening.  Try this.

 

Put your bike on an auction site.  Take the highest bid.  Buy the new one.  

 

[realshelby]

2 hours ago, Antimatter said:

 There will probably always be a market for boutique stuff and for customers who like a lot of a$$-kissing, but for someone with an internet connection and two working brain cells, there's no point.

Possibly. But there will have to be online auctions where they come and pick up your car and take it to auction for you. At a cost of several hundred dollars or a percentage of the selling price. But wait, most cars traded in today have a lien. Often a lot more that it brings at auction. So, there goes that idea. Maybe you could work out a deal with the lender for a bridge loan.....

 

As a retail customer you won't believe it, might not know it, but your cars value is ACV. Which stands for actual cash value. Cash is just that, what is it worth to a wholesaler or auction. EVERYTHING about trading in a car is based on this market. But, you can sell the car online too. Maybe the States will work out tax laws so you don't have to trade a car for tax credits off the new car price? 

 

For those that have no trade in vehicle, Let's go online or to the Manufacturer showroom. BTW, where is the showroom? Too many of these, and you might as well keep Dealers. Anyway we select a vehicle and are about to push the button. But we want to sit in one and really want to drive it. No, this is just a showroom, we cannot drive these. 

 

The "Car" business is unique in many ways. The biggest standout is the trade in factor. Second is service. Cars and trucks are not disposable like most Amazon products. They can be fixed, and the manufacture is better off with a franchised dealer doing the repairs. They also must be maintained, but there is already a secondary business model doing well at that. 

 

Yet there has been what you would call an Amazon or maybe better a Walmarting of the car business. Fewer and fewer independent dealers. Big corporations are gobbling up franchises. They gut the standards that built these franchises. Cost cutting is everything. Which pushes out qualified sales staff right away. Service technicians right behind them. With that trend you are often better off just ordering online. Then there is the Fleet side of the car business. That WILL make your head spin if you knew what it takes to be successful at that...........won't be ordering that online very soon.........

[Ponch]

40 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Possibly. But there will have to be online auctions where they come and pick up your car and take it to auction for you. At a cost of several hundred dollars or a percentage of the selling price. But wait, most cars traded in today have a lien. Often a lot more that it brings at auction. So, there goes that idea. Maybe you could work out a deal with the lender for a bridge loan.....

 

As a retail customer you won't believe it, might not know it, but your cars value is ACV. Which stands for actual cash value. Cash is just that, what is it worth to a wholesaler or auction. EVERYTHING about trading in a car is based on this market. But, you can sell the car online too. Maybe the States will work out tax laws so you don't have to trade a car for tax credits off the new car price? 

 

For those that have no trade in vehicle, Let's go online or to the Manufacturer showroom. BTW, where is the showroom? Too many of these, and you might as well keep Dealers. Anyway we select a vehicle and are about to push the button. But we want to sit in one and really want to drive it. No, this is just a showroom, we cannot drive these. 

 

The "Car" business is unique in many ways. The biggest standout is the trade in factor. Second is service. Cars and trucks are not disposable like most Amazon products. They can be fixed, and the manufacture is better off with a franchised dealer doing the repairs. They also must be maintained, but there is already a secondary business model doing well at that. 

 

Yet there has been what you would call an Amazon or maybe better a Walmarting of the car business. Fewer and fewer independent dealers. Big corporations are gobbling up franchises. They gut the standards that built these franchises. Cost cutting is everything. Which pushes out qualified sales staff right away. Service technicians right behind them. With that trend you are often better off just ordering online. Then there is the Fleet side of the car business. That WILL make your head spin if you knew what it takes to be successful at that...........won't be ordering that online very soon.........

And the ACV is probably what it's really worth. Used cars have huge markup. I wonder what the markup on new cars is?

[realshelby]

Not probably, actually. That does not mean a Dealer will offer you exactly what it is worth at auction. There are costs involved with getting it there, and then there is the profit factor. There are dealers that have tried to manipulate the wholesale market. The "big" corporate owners are currently heading in that direction. But they too have learned there is a hard value to a piece of iron. What it can be turned into cash for. 

 

Huge markup? Define huge. How many thousands of dollars do you think the average used car profit is?

 

Markup on new cars is harder to define. Rebates, stairstep programs, inventory bonus and so on. But I would BET you the average new car profit is less than you think it is. Money is made in finance and aftermarket, often equaling or exceeding new car profit. 

 

Nothing wrong with profit on selling something. We pay the medical industry......well let's not go there....

[Ponch]

8 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Dell and Apple don't take trade-ins and deal with customers who hide defects in trade vehicles; and, who have an unreasonably high estimate of the trade in's value. 

 

Also, their inventory turns at a much faster rate.

 

Re: cars and bikes, most customers want it all, i.e. low prices on the new unit and high price on the trade.  Factories aren't geared to deal with that; thus, they shift it to its dealer network to disintermediate the risk.  Tesla takes trades but AFAIK, it doesn't haggle.  

 

If customers were willing to take the extant auto/bike auction price for the trade without question, buying direct would be a cinch.  When people were trading SUVs on subcompacts. my client, a Ford dealer, had an open line to the auction.  He'd offer the current auction value price to the customer on the trade.  That really hasn't changed.  LIkely, it's CarMax' method of setting prices.

 

A car is considered "sold" when the factory ships it to the dealer; thus, dealers, who "floor plan" their inventory are under great pressure to move units, maintaining a target, average gross profit per unit.  They can make more profit on the used cars they sell because there aren't a dozen other dealers selling the identical item; but the factory puts on immense pressure to sell new units.   Another client who had 28 dealerships said in a sales meeting I attended, "The only reason we're in the new car business is to sell used cars."

 

Most dealers know their customers are trying to screw them (buyers are liars); so, they're just getting out in front of the curve, not only in the sale of the unit, but in add-on items the F&I people push when signing the deal.  BTW, the "F&I Guy" is usually the highest-paid employee in the dealership, being paid a % of sales.  Want to get a feel of what goes on in a dealership when customers aren't listening.  Try this.

 

Put your bike on an auction site.  Take the highest bid.  Buy the new one.  

 

Apple does. https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in

 

 Buyers are liars? One, not everyone has a trade in, so what's to lie about (I've heard horror stories about what wholesalers do. Liars? Start with the flippers). Two, customers don't use methods like the four square, the ben Franklin, assumptive closing techniques or appealing to a higher authority. It's all theater. The customer is the enemy in that they want to move product and really don't care. 

 

My method is, I find out what the model I want goes for MSRP, research what is a fair going price and tell the salesman that a certain amount is what I will pay OTD for X. If you want to make a sale give me a call. I give my business card with the price in the back and leave. It's worked for me. The biggest thing is willingness to walk away. If you can't, you're owned. Always be willing to say screw it. The other thing too is that in today's world, I don't have to buy local. The internet is a lovely thing. 

[Ponch]

5 hours ago, realshelby said:

 

Markup on new cars is harder to define. Rebates, stairstep programs, inventory bonus and so on. But I would BET you the average new car profit is less than you think it is. Money is made in finance and aftermarket, often equaling or exceeding new car profit. 

 

 

 

Car prices have increased beyond inflation. At one time someone buying a car took out a 3 year loan. Now we see loans out to 84 months. Anytime there is a third party payer, prices will inflate, whether it's houses, cars or college. Borrow other people's money and become indentured. The sad thing with vehicles is that people borrow on something that devalues over time. With the points they are paying, it's not a good deal. Interesting video on the subject. 

 

 

[WBinDE]

I was originally offered a decent trade for my 14-month-old 2015 RT (with 32K miles) on a leftover '15 GS Low. As we got into the deal, the trade-in value declined and the attractiveness of the offer diminished. By the time it got to my bike + $12K cash + no discount on BMW accessories, I pulled the plug. Rode the bike 150 miles to another dealer who put me onto a new '16 GS Adventure Low for $10K, net, including OEM panniers.

 

Of course now the GSA is worth nothing because it has 132K miles. So my choices are pretty limited. Ride until one of us dies, part it out, or buy with no trade. Good thing I like it enough to keep it, and keep riding it.

[AndyS]

Of course, without dealers, where do we go to test ride the motorcycle we want to buy. Some of you are prepared to buy blind. Me? No way. I want to make sure that when I shell out this amount of money, there will be a fair chance I like what I end up with. So the dealer is an important location for me. Thankfully, mine (CW Motorcycles) has excellent relationships with its customers (yes, real relationships. There is a club feeling when you visit them) and long may it continue.

[Bernie]

I did try to support my local dealers. If it wouldn‘t have been for a demo ride at the local dealer, I would have ended up with the wrong model bike. I would have had to adjust to a very uncomfortable riding position, which most likely would cause me to ride less. That was one of the main reasons I ended up as a BMW Motorrad customer in the first place, back in 2000. They where the only brand that would allow test rides back then.

[John Ranalletta]

8 hours ago, Ponch said:

Apple does. https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in

 

 Buyers are liars? One, not everyone has a trade in, so what's to lie about (I've heard horror stories about what wholesalers do. Liars? Start with the flippers). Two, customers don't use methods like the four square, the ben Franklin, assumptive closing techniques or appealing to a higher authority. It's all theater. The customer is the enemy in that they want to move product and really don't care. 

 

My method is, I find out what the model I want goes for MSRP, research what is a fair going price and tell the salesman that a certain amount is what I will pay OTD for X. If you want to make a sale give me a call. I give my business card with the price in the back and leave. It's worked for me. The biggest thing is willingness to walk away. If you can't, you're owned. Always be willing to say screw it. The other thing too is that in today's world, I don't have to buy local. The internet is a lovely thing. 

 

Apple?  Trades?  Sure, just like the car auction example, the trade value is set, I don't see the opportunity to haggle over pricing.  

 

There are exceptions to most rules.  A friend will tell the dealer about every defect in his trade in.  He couldn't sleep otherwise (typical Subaru owner with a lab in back).  Some dealers try to fair trade, but at the end of the day, there's got to be more cash in the till than the beginning balance and nothing's certain; car values, interest rates and customer traffic are unpredictable and change hourly; so they have to take every advantage available to them.  Some don't stop at what we'd consider ethical.

 

For most, buying a car or m/c is more emotionally than fact driven.  Really?  How many of us really NEED a new GS Adventure or RT? 

 

On the commercial side of the car/truck business, things are done a lot differently.  There's no haggling over the white, 4-cyl panel van.  An RFP goes out and a dealer makes a bid.  A deal is done with much of the back end work done by a corporate leasing agent.

 

One can avoid all this duress and uncertainty by leasing a m/c - but it appears the "lease-like" programs offered don't resemble car leases with predictable costs - too much risk.

 

I've had plenty of bikes, always buying used and selling on CL and ADVRIDER.  None has ever taken more than two weeks to sell because I don't anguish over the value.  It's a hobby.  It's expensive.  Nothing to see here, move along.  I thought I got a smokin' deal on my '15 GS; yet, its current value has dropped beyond my expectations; but it's not an investment.  It's a toy. Such is life.

[Ponch]

3 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Apple?  Trades?  Sure, just like the car auction example, the trade value is set, I don't see the opportunity to haggle over pricing.  

 

There are exceptions to most rules.  A friend will tell the dealer about every defect in his trade in.  He couldn't sleep otherwise (typical Subaru owner with a lab in back).  Some dealers try to fair trade, but at the end of the day, there's got to be more cash in the till than the beginning balance and nothing's certain; car values, interest rates and customer traffic are unpredictable and change hourly; so they have to take every advantage available to them.  Some don't stop at what we'd consider ethical.

 

For most, buying a car or m/c is more emotionally than fact driven.  Really?  How many of us really NEED a new GS Adventure or RT? 

 

On the commercial side of the car/truck business, things are done a lot differently.  There's no haggling over the white, 4-cyl panel van.  An RFP goes out and a dealer makes a bid.  A deal is done with much of the back end work done by a corporate leasing agent.

 

One can avoid all this duress and uncertainty by leasing a m/c - but it appears the "lease-like" programs offered don't resemble car leases with predictable costs - too much risk.

 

I've had plenty of bikes, always buying used and selling on CL and ADVRIDER.  None has ever taken more than two weeks to sell because I don't anguish over the value.  It's a hobby.  It's expensive.  Nothing to see here, move along.  I thought I got a smokin' deal on my '15 GS; yet, its current value has dropped beyond my expectations; but it's not an investment.  It's a toy. Such is life.

And I think I saiid, always be willing to walk away. If I don't need it, I can and have. The bottom line is that it's my money and I get to decide where it goes. 

[realshelby]

Car, and bike, prices have increased dramatically in the last many decades. But so has content you get with them, capability of what they can do, safety, economy, power and so on. 

 

If there was a market for vehicles at $10,000 dollars today, someone would fill it. It could be done. But no one wants vinyl seats, vent windows, three speed manual, and 100 hp. 

 

I have seen all sides of the market. Including of course the buyers side. I will tell you that eliminating the dealer won't really reduce the cost of buying a new car as much as many think it would. But I get that Dealers are a middleman and some business models want to eliminate that. 

 

What I don't get is the segment of buyers that want to buy cheap. Beyond those that have a limited budget ( but there again a really good sales staff might be able to present options that actually help with that), there is a segment that feels like they got a screamin' bargain when they buy the "ad units" you see advertised. Many of these are actually loss leaders. Usually a base model with no or few options. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen those traded back in after a couple years because they didn't satisfy the owners. Talk about taking a loss, that is where you lose money. Not when buying, but when trading or selling. These buyers are also often the ones that will shop 5 Dealers and keep going back and forth to get the lowest price. Even $100 less, even though too many don't believe how they may get screwed later on in the paperwork. These buyers are NEVER satisfied that they got a good deal. EVER. 

 

So, based on many years of this on both sides, I will tell you that research into what you want/need to buy is key. And there is NO WAY to do that without driving some vehicles. Be up front that you just want to test drive. That in itself will show you what dealers you want to do business with! NEVER discuss price or trade until you are ready to buy. Why would you? When you have found the vehicle you want, then you can start the "buying" process. Internet quotes are a good place to start. But you also must do your research on what the market price should be. If not paying cash, and few do today, then be sure to see what interest rates you can get at a credit union or online lender. That is a bargaining chip you must have. It will ALWAYS be easier to finance and do paperwork with the Dealer. Just be sure you know exactly what you are signing. 

 

Those that buy the vehicle they actually want or need, and pay a fair price are almost without exception much happier down the road. Buyers remorse is real, and if you are not happy with a $50,000 purchase that can eat into you hard. 

 

The best value in any vehicle is one you buy and keep for many years. Because it was the one you wanted and needed. Price is forgotten much quicker than dissatisfaction. 

[Ponch]

22 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Car, and bike, prices have increased dramatically in the last many decades. But so has content you get with them, capability of what they can do, safety, economy, power and so on. 

 

If there was a market for vehicles at $10,000 dollars today, someone would fill it. It could be done. But no one wants vinyl seats, vent windows, three speed manual, and 100 hp. 

 

I have seen all sides of the market. Including of course the buyers side. I will tell you that eliminating the dealer won't really reduce the cost of buying a new car as much as many think it would. But I get that Dealers are a middleman and some business models want to eliminate that. 

 

What I don't get is the segment of buyers that want to buy cheap. Beyond those that have a limited budget ( but there again a really good sales staff might be able to present options that actually help with that), there is a segment that feels like they got a screamin' bargain when they buy the "ad units" you see advertised. Many of these are actually loss leaders. Usually a base model with no or few options. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen those traded back in after a couple years because they didn't satisfy the owners. Talk about taking a loss, that is where you lose money. Not when buying, but when trading or selling. These buyers are also often the ones that will shop 5 Dealers and keep going back and forth to get the lowest price. Even $100 less, even though too many don't believe how they may get screwed later on in the paperwork. These buyers are NEVER satisfied that they got a good deal. EVER. 

 

So, based on many years of this on both sides, I will tell you that research into what you want/need to buy is key. And there is NO WAY to do that without driving some vehicles. Be up front that you just want to test drive. That in itself will show you what dealers you want to do business with! NEVER discuss price or trade until you are ready to buy. Why would you? When you have found the vehicle you want, then you can start the "buying" process. Internet quotes are a good place to start. But you also must do your research on what the market price should be. If not paying cash, and few do today, then be sure to see what interest rates you can get at a credit union or online lender. That is a bargaining chip you must have. It will ALWAYS be easier to finance and do paperwork with the Dealer. Just be sure you know exactly what you are signing. 

 

Those that buy the vehicle they actually want or need, and pay a fair price are almost without exception much happier down the road. Buyers remorse is real, and if you are not happy with a $50,000 purchase that can eat into you hard. 

 

The best value in any vehicle is one you buy and keep for many years. Because it was the one you wanted and needed. Price is forgotten much quicker than dissatisfaction. 

Of course I would test drive whatever I buy. I took an extended ride on the RT I have now. Had to get gas to come back to the dealer, but I did it the same. I said what I'd pay for it OTD, with the 49L top case. It was fair to both sides and he made it happen rather quickly, but he owned the dealership. In fact, he stepped in to the sale a minute after the salesman talked to me. I am not difficult, but I know what I need. I don't need every bell and whistle, so for instance, looking for a truck next year, I won't be looking at the high trims. I just don't see paying over 40K for a half ton truck a worthwhile investment. Don't get me started on the bed size either. That's the hardest thing to find. I don't want an open trunk and I don't tow, but I do work such that I sometimes put long things in a bed or would, but try to find any model with the longer of the bed options is 1000-1 at best where I live and we haven't even gotten to a color I might like. Talk about emotion buying, kind of tired of the neutrals and it's one thing I don't like about BMW. Boring colors on the RT and K bikes. 

[Bradysdad]

On 7/17/2019 at 1:20 PM, John Ranalletta said:

Most dealers know their customers are trying to screw them (buyers are liars); so, they're just getting out in front of the curve, not only in the sale of the unit, but in add-on items the F&I people push when signing the deal.  BTW, the "F&I Guy" is usually the highest-paid employee in the dealership, being paid a % of sales.  Want to get a feel of what goes on in a dealership when customers aren't listening.  Try this.

Not quite sure what you mean by “Customers trying to screw them”.  How do you figure?  Dealers (both car and bike) are usually the ones stating incorrect facts and trying to sell you everything and the kitchen sink. If I had a dollar for every time a dealer told me they only have a $1,500 mark up in their $60,000 car, I would be a wealthy man. 
 

This thread is interesting because regardless of what type of dealership one works with, the business model is the same. Dealers buy at wholesale and try to sell at retail. The negotiation process falls somewhere in between.  There are potential tax advantages on trading in which need to be considered as part of the overall cost/savings.  But for those looking to get retail on their trade and a killer deal on a new bike, good luck with that. 
 

Selling outright usually nets the best price, and gives you the best position for negotiating price on a new bike when a trade is not involved. Any dealer can “show you” what you want for your trade, but the net number will reflect what the trade is really worth to the dealer. 
 

Everyone has different comfort levels with transactions and prefer doing business a certain way. But the dealer process is the same regardless. They are in business to make money and keep the doors open, and rightfully so. It is up to the consumer to make the educated decision.  
 

If anything, I would say it’s the consumer that usually gets lied to and not the dealer. 

[John Ranalletta]

Quote

Everyone has different comfort levels with transactions and prefer doing business a certain way. But the dealer process is the same regardless. They are in business to make money and keep the doors open, and rightfully so. It is up to the consumer to make the educated decision. 

 

"Buyer beware" is a business model.  

[Ponch]

1 hour ago, Bradysdad said:

 

If anything, I would say it’s the consumer that usually gets lied to and not the dealer. 

 

Pretty much. It's the nature of the beast and transaction. Salesforce has a disproportionate percentage of narcissistic psychopaths, as does executives and politicians. Since money is the object and the flow of where it goes, who will tend to be predatory? What type of people are drawn to sales? See above.