'02 RT. Krunch shudder. . . Final Drive (?)

[Redman]

Going down highway, full speed ahead.

Left SanDeigo 7 days prior, headed home to Michigan (story & pics post in Ride Report).

 

Felt a bit of a shudder, like I hit a bump in pavement, but was smooth pavement.

Happend again, and again, then started repeating every minute or so. Then Released I wasnt feeling it from the wheels-suspension but was feeling it in the foot pegs.

 

Pulled into an entrance ramp to a rest area that was right there, felt a big sharp shudder, almost like I hit a bit chuck hole, but it was smooth pavement.

Rolling to a stop I thought I could hear a bit of krunching.

Stopped, and got off. Took off helmet and said "I smell gear oil."

 

A growing puddle.

(other story-picture posting tells about my adventure to get it and me home)

 

May be a couple days before I can look into this further.

 

But I gather this is ONE of the couple OTHER known problems with the 1150s: Final Drive failure.

(when I say OTHER known problem, I had the clutch hub / transmission nput shaft failure when I first go the bike in 2015).

 

WHat should I check?

I need to figure out specifically what part(s) I need.

Any other words of wisdom??

 

I do have the full factory service manaul. Do have tools. And have done some mechaical work on bikes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and I will mention I had the full fluid change done when first got bike in 2015.

only rode it a few thousand miles since then (bike was at daughters house in SanDiego).

And I had the full service fliud change done again (and new tires) just before this trip.

 

.

 

Later Note:

Here is posting with pics of ride thru Californai, Utah and COlorado

 

[Redman]

I suspect I need an entire rear drive assembly, like this:

 

I further assume it should be from an 02, 03, or 04 1150RT (seems to be some choices on ebay right now, one in Michigan even).

How about, say, RS or other...?

How about other years..?

 

Maybe should rebuild it with new o-ring?

 

Any words of wisdom?

I have Honda Molly lube (from working on Suzuki rear wheel hubs).

[11101110]

Send your drive off to Anton.  As long as the casing is good you should be able to get it rebuilt.

 

http://vamotorrad.com/benchwork/

 

I had him rebuild my FD many years ago and not a problem since.  I even got to watch.

[AndyS]

Hi Redman,

I had that happen to me while travelling in Spain 3 years ago. For me, it was the crown wheel bearing failed. The repair cost was a new bearing (the inner bearings were fine), a shim, an O ring, Oil and labour. The important thing was that the people who rebuilt it for me, had the correct measuring kit, and knew how to use it correctly for that particular application. So If I had been in the UK, I would have just bought a secondhand one from the likes of Motroworks (similar, I think, to BeemerBoneyard). However, i was in the middle of a tour, so it needed doing there and then.

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, Redman said:

Going down highway, full speed ahead.

Left SanDeigo 7 days prior, headed home to Michigan (story & pics post in Ride Report).

 

Felt a bit of a shudder, like I hit a bump in pavement, but was smooth pavement.

Happend again, and again, then started repeating every minute or so. Then Released I wasnt feeling it from the wheels-suspension but was feeling it in the foot pegs.

 

Pulled into an entrance ramp to a rest area that was right there, felt a big sharp shudder, almost like I hit a bit chuck hole, but it was smooth pavement.

Rolling to a stop I thought I could hear a bit of krunching.

Stopped, and got off. Took off helmet and said "I smell gear oil."

 

 

A growing puddle.

(other story-picture posting tells about my adventure to get it and me home)

 

May be a couple days before I can look into this further.

 

But I gather this is ONE of the couple OTHER known problems with the 1150s: Final Drive failure.

(when I say OTHER known problem, I had the clutch hub / transmission nput shaft failure when I first go the bike in 2015).

 

WHat should I check?

I need to figure out specifically what part(s) I need.

Any other words of wisdom??

 

I do have the full factory service manaul. Do have tools. And have done some mechaical work on bikes.

 

Oh, and I will mention I had the full fluid change done when first got bike in 2015.

only rode it a few thousand miles since then (bike was at daughters house in SanDiego).

And I had the full service fliud change done again (and new tires) just before this trip.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Morning  Redman

 

Without removing the final drive side cover & looking inside we are guessing from afar but the usual problem (with both the crunching & oil leak) is a failed crown bearing & failed crown bearing oil seal  (very good chance that is your problem).  Neither are shown in your included pictures)

 

The crown bearing & seal is replaceable at home with minimal tools & expertise,

 

BUT!, there is more to (a proper repair) than JUST replacing the bearing & seal as to do it properly the crown bearing preload must be measured then set properly. This part is difficult without precision measuring tools, the know-how to use those tools, & a full understanding of what needs to be accomplished. 

 

It,  (the bearing preload)  can be done at home as there are a  number of work-arounds depending on what measuring tools and/or procedure that is chosen but it is a fiddly procedure.

 

Or you can remove the final drive then take it to your local BMW dealer, or even send it out to a shop with a history of lasting repair. (problem is-- some dealers/shops  will take the time & have the expertise  to use the proper tools & set preload properly & others will just toss in a new bearing & new seal then send the drive back to the owner knowing that it won't re-fail until out of their warranty period.  

 

If you choose to send the drive out (or take it to local BMW dealer) then be SURE to get that repair facility's assurance that they will set the bearing preload correctly using correct BMW  tools & procedures  as this is very important for a lasting repair. 

 

Buying a used drive on E-Bay might get you the same problems that you have now as you just never know the crown bearing condition or if it was shimmed correctly at initial assembly.

 

I don' think the RS final drive will work as I think the RS ratio is 31/11 (2.81) & your RT should be 32/11 (2.91). Check it on your present final drive.

 

There is a gear ratio stamped on your drive housing  (right beside the top vent) so if buying a used drive be sure to get the same gear ratio.

 

  _______usual parts needed_____

 

-Grooved ball bearing (crown bearing)-------------  about $161.00

-Seal- p/n 33127663482 ----------------------------------  about $45.00

Preload shims  p/n varies by thickness--------------about $11.00 per shim

Side cover "O" ring p/n  33111241257 -------------  about $10.00

 

 

 

 

[AndyS]

Ah yes, I forgot to include the seal. After the wheel has wobbled to a halt, you must assume that seal is toast. 

[Redman]

Thank You, guys.

 

Thank You, DR.

 

THis is great. (especially since I have not been active at all here in recent years.) (and since I am an ignorant guy that got a 02 1150)

 

Yes, my drive is 32/11. Thanks for pointing out that stamping, had not noticed it before.

 

TO verify a few of my current understandings from studying the repsonces provided :

 

- When you say "remove the side cover", should I assume that is after removing the entire gear drive....?

If I were to remove the gear drive, and take off this side cover.... could I then see if any gear damage?

Perhpas this "preloading" is beyond my skills/equipment (if anymore than a torque). But I think I can asses if any gears are broke.

 

- Even with the "grunching" (seemed also like a near lockup once then release) the problem is typically not gear failure, but the bearing wear, that I am guess then causing misalignment.

 

- This "bearing preload" is something that needs to be done, and is to done to the gear drive unit during reassembly. So can be done by someone having the gear drive, not the the bike.

 

- The Typical part list is about $250 worth of parts.

The Anton service says about $400 for the typical repair. That only leaves $150 for labor and shipping. Maybe they get parts at some better price.

I am going to ask local dealer (50 miles) for quote to rebuild it with me bringing in the gear drive, but maybe this Anton is a better option.

Anybody have other recommendation?

 

- Should the parts list include a couple of the clamps-straps for the rubber boot? Looks like have to cut them loose. 

 

- Swapping in a used gear drive (ebay or other) is maybe something I could do. At present I see some  choices in range of 125 to 200.

Problem might be that a used one may be headed toward the same problem.

One auction had a video of bike with collision damage, starting and running and going down the road. But, hey, so was I, about 5 miles before this started.

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Redman

 

- When you say "remove the side cover", should I assume that is after removing the entire gear drive....?

If I were to remove the gear drive, and take off this side cover.... could I then see if any gear damage?

Perhpas this "preloading" is beyond my skills/equipment (if anymore than a torque). But I think I can asses if any gears are broke. -- You don't need to remove the drive from the bike as just remove the rear wheel then you can unbolt the side cover & remove the cover with spool/ ring gear still attached.

 

- Even with the "grunching" (seemed also like a near lockup once then release) the problem is typically not gear failure, but the bearing wear, that I am guess then causing misalignment.-- Usually that crunching is the bearing locking up as all the balls migrate to one side of the bearing  (as a rule the bearing doesn't fail first it is the ball separator that fails THEN the balls all run together & the crunching starts).   

 

- This "bearing preload" is something that needs to be done, and is to done to the gear drive unit during reassembly. So can be done by someone having the gear drive, not the the bike.-- They will need the entire final drive but not the entire motorcycle.  Some (actually many) riders have JUST installed a new bearing & seal and not re-set the preload. It is kind of a crap shoot but it has worked for some.

 

- The Typical part list is about $250 worth of parts.

The Anton service says about $400 for the typical repair. That only leaves $150 for labor and shipping. Maybe they get parts at some better price.

I am going to ask local dealer (50 miles) for quote to rebuild it with me bringing in the gear drive, but maybe this Anton is a better option.

Anybody have other recommendation?

 

- Should the parts list include a couple of the clamps-straps for the rubber boot? Looks like have to cut them loose. -- Possibly, depends of IF the bearing repair is made with the final drive still on the bike or if it is removed for the rebuild (I have done them both ways)

 

- Swapping in a used gear drive (ebay or other) is maybe something I could do. At present I see some  choices in range of 125 to 200.

Problem might be that a used one may be headed toward the same problem.

One auction had a video of bike with collision damage, starting and running and going down the road. But, hey, so was I, about 5 miles before this started.-- Getting a used drive is a crap shoot as you just never know how good the crown bearing is. It might be good to go or could have had 2 bearing failures in it's history with the existing one about to fail again.

 

You do have another option & that is to remove the side cover then inspect the ring gear  & inspect small (off-side)bearing, if OK then just install a new crown bearing, seal,  & new cover  "O" ring using the existing bearing shim (you can do this with drive still on the bike).  In many cases this is close enough to get a decent life out of the final drive (personally I wouldn't trust it for a long cross country trip)  but if just riding local then you can frequently give the rear wheel a shake looking for movement plus change the gear oil with every engine oil change looking for sharp objects (sharp feeling crud in the gear oil usually indicates impending bearing failure).

[Redman]

Ah, now I see: sideplate

[Redman]

Thanks for the concise information.

 

THis is great.

 

. 

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, Redman said:

Thanks for the concise information.

 

THis is great.

 

. 

 

Evening Redman

 

If you want to look at the ring gear just remove the bolts in the side cover then pull/pry it off the final drive housing. It will pull off with the spool/and/ring gear attached to it. (you can do this with final drive still in the bike)-- Remove, or at least be very careful of, the wheel speed sensor.

 

Then set the side cover on a something (like 2x4's, or  blocks, etc) with ring gear pointing down so there is a space under the small bearing on the spool (put something soft under the bearing),   then use a heat gun (or hair drier) to heat the side cover in the bearing area.

 

Once warm/hot then use a rawhide mallet, rubber mallet, or piece of wood & hammer to drive on the hub where the wheel mounts. That should knock the spool/ring gear/bearing out of the side cover.

 

Once apart you can use a bearing puller  to remove the bearing, or even some heat & a pry bar to get the bearing off of the spool (caution: be careful to not nick or damage the ring gear teeth). 

 

  Once apart you can pry or drive the seal out of the side cover. (caution: don't lose the shim(s) between the bearing & side cover.

[11101110]

My FD rebuild bill was $700.  That included replacement of all the bearings and cooking out some snot that some should not have used when it was rebuilt previously.  I think I was on the extreme end.  I had my rebuild due to a slight wobble in the rear wheel and A LOT of metal in the FD oil.  the crown bearing has not self destructed and was still intact but the inner bearing and the needle bearing were toast.  Because of the evidence of a previous rebuild Anton thinks the crown previously failed and only that was replaced.  However when it failed it shed metal bits into the oil that damaged all the other bearings.  I guess the moral of the story is be wary of just replacing just the failed bearing(s) as they are all using the same oil.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, 11101110 said:

My FD rebuild bill was $700.  That included replacement of all the bearings and cooking out some snot that some should not have used when it was rebuilt previously.  I think I was on the extreme end.  I had my rebuild due to a slight wobble in the rear wheel and A LOT of metal in the FD oil.  the crown bearing has not self destructed and was still intact but the inner bearing and the needle bearing were toast.  Because of the evidence of a previous rebuild Anton thinks the crown previously failed and only that was replaced.  However when it failed it shed metal bits into the oil that damaged all the other bearings.  I guess the moral of the story is be wary of just replacing just the failed bearing(s) as they are all using the same oil.

 

Morning  11101110

 

I seldom find the other bearings damaged on just a crown bearing failure as the vehicle can't be ridden very far with a failed crown bearing.

 

But that assumes the crown bearing replacement  included a good clean out (flush-out) of the final drive housing (especially the shrouded  pinion bearing area).

 

As was noted on your final drive-- if the debris is not cleaned out at crown bearing replacement then it is possible to have the remaining crud & crunchies damage the other bearings.

[Redman]

On 6/11/2019 at 9:09 AM, dirtrider said:

............

I seldom find the other bearings damaged on just a crown bearing failure as the vehicle can't be ridden very far with a failed crown bearing....................

............

 

Hum, I was still rolling along, although as coming to a stop it seemed that it had a mini lockup and broke loose, but I was still rolling along. And then, after getting a truck, I rode it a couple hundred feet to where could load on a truck. 

Am not arguing with you, I am just reviewing this to see if it effects your diagnosis.

[Redman]

Can anyone say, what size hex socket these pivot pins (#6 & #7) need ...?

Certainly lot bigger that the largest in my set. (and I see in manual about heating)

 

 

Minor question: Hey, My straps-clamps (#11 x2) dont look exactly like these, but look more like ordinary plastic electrical cable ties. Might that be an indication that this has been worked on before??

Edited June 13, 2019 by Redman
wording

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, Redman said:

 

Hum, I was still rolling along, although as coming to a stop it seemed that it had a mini lockup and broke loose, but I was still rolling along. And then, after getting a truck, I rode it a couple hundred feet to where could load on a truck. 

Am not arguing with you, I am just reviewing this to see if it effects your diagnosis.

 

 

Afternoons Redman

 

Not really, I have seen them ridden until most of the gear oil has run out & the rear wheel rubs things & still no damage.

 

You really won't know anything for sure until you remove the side cover & take a look inside.

 

If you do go with just the bearing & seal then 'for sure' flush the dickens out of the pinion area then do quick gear oil change after riding a few hundred miles.  

[Michaelr11]

2 hours ago, Redman said:

Can anyone say, what size hex socket these pivot pins (#6 & #7) need ...?

Certainly lot bigger that the largest in my set. (and I see in manual about heating)

 

They use a 12 mm hex.   Yes, from the factory they had loctite on the threads.  VERY important that the pins get heated so the loctite releases. Otherwise the threads in the swingarm can be torn off.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Redman said:

 

Minor question: Hey, My straps-clamps (#11 x2) dont look exactly like these, but look more like ordinary plastic electrical cable ties. Might that be an indication that this has been worked on before??

 

 

Afternoon Redman

 

The 1150 bikes pretty well used plastic zip ties (heavy duty type), the 1100 bikes used the metal bands (hose clamps).

 

Some of the metal bands on the 1100 bikes have been replaced by zip ties after service & some riders like the (reusable) metal bands so use the 1100  bands on their 1150 bikes.

[szurszewski]

 

 

 

2

5 hours ago, Redman said:

Can anyone say, what size hex socket these pivot pins (#6 & #7) need ...?

Certainly lot bigger that the largest in my set. (and I see in manual about heating)

 

 

 

Minor question: Hey, My straps-clamps (#11 x2) dont look exactly like these, but look more like ordinary plastic electrical cable ties. Might that be an indication that this has been worked on before??

 

3 hours ago, Michaelr11 said:

 

They use a 12 mm hex.   Yes, from the factory they had loctite on the threads.  VERY important that the pins get heated so the loctite releases. Otherwise the threads in the swingarm can be torn off.

 

When you get to reading the part about putting those pivots back in you will see there are some options. You don't need a special (window) socket and allen wrench - setting them with loctite and a witness mark and then tightening the locking nut (after the loctite sets) usually works well - but if you want to borrow the the socket and 12mm allen I have one I'd be happy to loan you by mail; just send me a pm if you're interested.

 

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

Afternoon Redman

 

The 1150 bikes pretty well used plastic zip ties (heavy duty type), the 1100 bikes used the metal bands (hose clamps).

 

Some of the metal bands on the 1100 bikes have been replaced by zip ties after service & some riders like the (reusable) metal bands so use the 1100  bands on their 1150 bikes.

 

I have used zipties when I didn't have a band handy and they have held up fine for many miles. You can always replace a ziptie later with a band if you like. 

[Redman]

2 hours ago, szurszewski said:

..............

When you get to reading the part about putting those pivots back in you will see there are some options. You don't need a special (window) socket and allen wrench - setting them with loctite and a witness mark and then tightening the locking nut (after the loctite sets) usually works well - ...............

..................

 

Thanks DR, Micheal, szurzewski.

 

I was going to get a hex wrench socket (12mm you say) for the pivots and use an adjustable wrench on that lock nut.

Any reason that will not work....? Maybe not enough clearance around the locknut.....

(I dont have rear wheel off yet, to get better look at the left one.) 

[szurszewski]

You can use a box wrench (or a LARGE crescent wrench) but that will not let you use a torque wrench to properly set the locking nut. I'm sure you've read this in your repair manual, but there is only a little torque on the pin, but quite a lot on the locknut.

 

 

[Redman]

9 hours ago, szurszewski said:

......................

 

 

Thanks.

PM sent.

[bcusack]

Wow, Redman, I followed you input shaft problems a few years ago when you first got your bike. At the time I had just had my tranny rebuilt by Anton.

 

Stick with it, it is annoying and expensive but the RT is a fine rider when working correctly.

My 99 RT just turned 100k but several times over its life I almost gave up. Input shaft and all the associated clutch stuff, burned exhaust valves requiring head work...twice (I figured out the lean fueling issues and fixed that 30k miles ago with Rogers fuel manipulator). Last year at 96k miles it ate the final drive which never leaked but had a low rumbling shutter that I could feel through the bike. On every major failure I was a long way from home requiring special handling for the bike and me.

When the FD went I was 100 miles out returning from a trip, it was not leaking and still turning so I limped it home feeling like I was abusing it all the way. Replaced it with a known good unit w 26k.

I keep pushing it... Last weekend I had four beautiful days/700 miles in the white mountains of NH when it turned 100k. Sins are forgiven, so I ordered new brake bobbins and fork seals...I’ll keep it going. 

 

 

[ltljohn]

Redman I made the socket for this when my final drive failed. I will gladly send it to you.  You will have to make a correction on your torque wrench as it adds 1.5 inches to the length.  Link to formula

It is not pretty but it works.  PM your address if you want to use it.

 

[Jim Moore]

For years I've been simply holding the pin still with a hex socket while I tighten the lock nut with a wrench. How tight? Pretty dang tight.

[Redman]

thanks LtJohn,

 

An other fine BMWST member has sent a specail custom tool (30mm socket  with side cut out, and 12mm allen wrench).

 

 

[Redman]

Other update:

 

After I got back from the Ride-Home-From-California trip, I had a lot of demands on my time ...... and needed to .work on the GS1100GK to be ready for a Suzuki GS ralley in southern Indiana (300 miles away).

 

Did get a used final drive (from an '04) that I found on ebay from other side of the state. Maybe not the best option, in some respects. But was the low cost option (since this $4500 bike has already cost me about that much again in a few thousand miles).

 

Did make the Suzuki GS rally.

But while there... I stopped in the road for a while, then I was an idiot and took off with my sidestand down, that ran me out of control, got thrown to pavement, broke collar bone .....

more details here:

https://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?254280-2019-Brown-County-GS-Hooraw-June-20-23-SAVE-THE-DATE!&p=2552535#post2552535

 

So, now I sit home now.  July- August- September.

 

Can not ride.

 

Can not work on the RT myself at the moment.

Will be several weeks before i can do much more than keep a finger on the step in the Clymer manual.

 

 

what i did today:

 

- shaving left side of face with right hand, i excavated a slice of skin off my chin.

 

- put batterytender on the RT, first time i touched it in 4 weeks.

put batterytender on GK and wipe most of the road grime off the pipes. first time i have touched it in two weeks.

doing those things caused some discomfort, and got wife grumping at me.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Redman
what did today

[szurszewski]

On 6/16/2019 at 9:35 AM, Jim Moore said:

For years I've been simply holding the pin still with a hex socket while I tighten the lock nut with a wrench. How tight? Pretty dang tight.

PDT is not the correct spec for the pivot pins. The pins should be RFT. 

[Redman]

Update:

 

I proceeded with the low-cost option.

Got a used final drive from an 03 (50some thousand miles).

 

A couple friends (from GSResource forum) offered to do the wrenching for me. They have lot of experience working on all sorts of bikes (mostly their own Suzukis GS and KLRS and VStroms). ANd they said they wanted to see first hand what this BMW FInal Drive failure is all about that they have been hearing about for decades (mostly on ADV and IronButt forums).

 

I read steps in the Clymer manaul, and they said "Yah, is like a yaddi yaddi in a yamer yammer" or "Yah, we already did that."

 

 

 

 

And then partailly dissasemble the original

main gears okay, so is a canidate to be rebuilt.

CAn turn that main ring gear, but takes some effort, and can feel some grunching.
 

 

Got in done in about 2 1/2 hours. Was well over 90 by the time were done.

And then they took turns for a test ride

 

I may yet send the original in for rebuild. From this forum and other, I have found two good reference for the rebuild.

 

 

[szurszewski]

Yay! 

 

I assume neither of your friends suffered a catastrophic failure on the test rides?

 

 

[Still CAL]

 

Hope the low-cost option works out. Nice looking bike.

 

 

 

[Redman]

11 hours ago, Still CAL said:

Hope the low-cost option works out. Nice looking bike.

I might have the original FD rebuilt.

Now that I have seen the swap done once, and when have use of both arms, I think I can do that again myself.

 

THe used FD I got had regular generic zip ties on it, so that makes me think it had been off and back on its original bike. SO maybe it had been rebuilt. THe pivot bearings in the replacement were not the best, not bad. but not the best either, so that right there is half a reason to get my original FD back on.

 

 

[Redman]

12 hours ago, szurszewski said:

............

I assume neither of your friends suffered a catastrophic failure on the test rides?

 

One guy said he was distracted by the mirrors being in that low position. ANd he got distracted by playing with the windscreen height adjustment.

 

Both guys have habit (as do I, from 1980s bikes) of putting up sidestand immediately upon mounting (so dont forget - ahem) and holding in clutch lever when starting (the only interlock on 80s bike). ANd the driveway there is slopped, so also hold brake lever, when starting .... so had the flasshy lights and marginal brakes at first then overpowerfull brakes ..... 

 

Both thought it handled well (after got out of driveway).

[szurszewski]

I bought my 1100RT at SFO (the seller rode up from Phoenix, I flew in from Seattle and we met in the parking lot before he flew home). 

 

I nearly crashed crossing the Golden Gate because I decided that would be a good time to play with the fancy windshield.

 

Glad you called yourself out on the side stand “habit” comment so I didn’t have to

[Redman]

Did get the little Shadow500 out at 10 1/2 week 

Wife said that was too early.

I told her I had an AMA card.

Yep, Against Medical Advice

 

 

 

Well, my 12 week recovery has completed on Saturday.

So got out the GS1100GK that day

 

 

Had last orthopedic appointment Monday, and got the all-clear rusume-regular-activity (Although still some chance of reinjury).

So did get out the RT MOnday for its first Michigan ride,  and then again  Tuesday and Friday and Saturday.

 

Some pics:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Not finding any on-going thread for general went-for-ride-today pics, so posted here.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Still CAL]

Great pics, beautiful composition, bet it’s not your first time!  Glad you’re at the “riding rehab” stage, I am too after performing amateur surgery on three fingers on my right hand with a table saw in June. Be careful out there, don’t give the wifey any ammo to sideline you again!

[szurszewski]

Excellent!