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Trailer gets Unrally Safety Check & Paint


John Ranalletta

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  • 4 weeks later...
John Ranalletta

The trailer exhibited some strange and unwelcome traits on the way back from the Unrally.  The addition of the bicycle carrier probably brought some latent out-of-alignment issues to fore.  Bolts came undone and spare tire mount cracked.   Disassembled the trailer last night to diagnose and repair.  Ugh!

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I bet John digs out the welder and turns that trailer into a two story toy hauler with a queen bed and Cappuccino maker! :grin:

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John Ranalletta
10 hours ago, TEWKS said:

I bet John digs out the welder and turns that trailer into a two story toy hauler with a queen bed and Cappuccino maker! :grin:

 

Not so much, but a weight reduction is in the works.  There's too much tread plate that's not used so some will be trimmed.  

 

The vibration was caused by a misaligned axle support arm.  The arm holds the spindle and pivots up/down as the air bag is inflated.  As such, the wheel and tire were running a few degrees off center and "skipping".  It took a few thousand miles (FART, START, Rushmore, Lake George and a few local trips) for the effects to surface.

 

 IMG_5841.thumb.JPG.baae01322cadd16a7967e124f64a3e4f.JPG

 

The solution is to straighten the arm.  Bending it is out of the question as its a 1.25" x 3" piece of mild steel.  So, the weld had to be ground out (3 beads of 7018) to loosen the arm from the lifting tube.  That's done.  Now, the chore is to find a way to check the alignment and hold fast while re-welding it.

 

IMG_5842.JPG

 

To be honest, I prefer my previous design where the trailer bed lowered for loading.  It was a Frankenstein version, i.e. standard m/c trailer that underwent the knife. If I get the urge, I might build one from scratch using aluminum or DOM tube to reduce weight.  We'll see.

 

Go here to see a very nice version of my trailer.  I copied their design, scaling from pictures on the web.  There's is much shorter than mine producing more tongue weight.  I was towing with the 335d when I built the trailer; so, I added length to reduce tongue weight.  Theirs is very well done.

 

I think this would be an economically viable product here if a small fab shop was set up to do runs of 50-100.   

 

 

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greiffster
3 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Not so much, but a weight reduction is in the works.  There's too much tread plate that's not used so some will be trimmed.  

 

 

 

probably a good idea.  As I recall, you've got quite the beefy tread plate on that thing.  

 

What is your percentage of total weight loaded on the tongue?  I only ask because I've had to adjust the location of my boat on its trailer to find a good sweet spot.  Too little weight on the tongue makes it very squirmy.

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John Ranalletta
11 minutes ago, greiffster said:

 

probably a good idea.  As I recall, you've got quite the beefy tread plate on that thing.  

 

What is your percentage of total weight loaded on the tongue?  I only ask because I've had to adjust the location of my boat on its trailer to find a good sweet spot.  Too little weight on the tongue makes it very squirmy.

 

Not sure exactly today.  A friend has a trailer hitch load cell I'll borrow when done with the axle.  The trailer doesn't squirm.  I've pulled it up to 90mph going to Rushmore without a problem.  The out-of-alignment wheel arm is the real problem because all the loose and broken stuff is on the right side of the trailer.

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John Ranalletta

Used a string to set the center line of the trailer.

 

IMG_5843.JPG

 

Balanced the rear lifting beam and spindle arms.

IMG_5849.JPG

 

IMG_5846.JPG

 

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Checked the distances from spindle arm and wheel to center line were equal front and back.

 

Time to energize the Hobart buzz box and light 'er up.  If it smells like bacon, I'm on fire.:facepalm:

 

 

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Not to hijack this thread, but I do like that airbag suspension idea for the trailer.  My question is would it not make sense to put the bags on both sides?  Without seeing the set-up, I would think that the suspension on one side would eventually cause sagging (lack of better term) on the un-bagged side.  There is probably a link that supports (connects) it on the other side.  Would bagging both sides (using air tubing to equalize) make a better set-up?  Just curious.

 

Thanks!

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John Ranalletta
19 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

Not to hijack this thread, but I do like that airbag suspension idea for the trailer.  My question is would it not make sense to put the bags on both sides?  Without seeing the set-up, I would think that the suspension on one side would eventually cause sagging (lack of better term) on the un-bagged side.  There is probably a link that supports (connects) it on the other side.  Would bagging both sides (using air tubing to equalize) make a better set-up?  Just curious.

 

Thanks!

 

One doesn't need two bags from a capacity standpoint as this one supports more than the trailer and m/c.  See spec sheet here:  https://www.phoenixvibrationcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/FD-200-25-CI.pdf.  You just shouldn't exceed those limits, and air pressure, bag height, etc.

 

Air trailers for cars use two bags.  The issue with using two on a single m/c trailer, other than not necessary, is that each bag takes up about a foot of horizontal space on the trailer, thus narrowing the room left to get a big bike on the trailer, like a boxer.

 

About sag... No way.  The bag is nestled in a clamp-like mechanism.  When inflated it pushes down against a bracket on the right spindle arm and up against a bracket welded to a cross member that connects to the spindle arm on the other side.  Why no sag?  The cross member (which is actually an axle of sorts) is 4"x 4"x/1/4" square tube.  Inside of that square tube is a 2", 1/2" wall round tube.  The square tube is welded to the frame of the trailer (floor) and the round tube is welded to the spindle arms on each side and rests in bearing blocks that allow it to spin thus raising and lowering the spindle arms and trailer.  The first few seconds of the video illustrate this movement.  Watch the round tube connected to the spindle arms rotate inside the square.

 

I can only guess how much force it might take to make the cross member sag but, likely, lots of welds would break first.  BTW, the bag acts as a shock absorber for the m/c en route

 

 

IMG_5853.JPG

IMG_5852.JPG

 

 

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Thanks John for the info.  Never really thought about the clearance issue.  It was obvious about weight rating; I am well aware of the airbag use in Class 8 trucks along the lines of comfort -vs- steel leaf springs.  Oh, yeah.

 

Still a pretty cool trailer, though.

 

I recall seeing string being used to check the alignments of semi trailers, going from the king pin (center,) to each axle (sides.)  It was sort of a simple method to get a rough idea if the axle is out of line.    I believe the string lengths were compared between each side.  Nowadays, laser type equipment is used more commonly, but not everybody has access to those machines.

 

Will be watching your progress.

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John Ranalletta

Thanks.  I did the string check to each spindle and the left is about 1/2" forward.  Don't suspect that's an issue as they're not on a common axle.  As long as each tracks true....

The welding is done.  A new bracket and 3rd wheel was mounted today. The other one got smashed at Lake George.

 

Tomorrow, I hope to fab new fenders and weld up a new spare tire mount.  The current fenders are attached to the spindle arms and get a lot of up/down action as the wheel travels over rough roads.  Hope to fasten new ones to the rear cross member and frame under body.  About run out of energy, though.

 

Getting and being old ain't for p......s.

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Do not forget to add in the heat of the day.  I was out in the shade installing my tank bag ring with it being 95 degrees outside.  There is not a lot of straining involved in removing the hardware, yet I was sweating enough to seem like it was.  

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realshelby

John, did you recheck your alignment after welding? I suspect the welding process may have been part/all of why it wasn't straight to start with. Heat from welding does weird things to even thicker metal! 

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John Ranalletta

Terry, thanks.  I did.  Put a fairly big tack on the assembly and checked alignment, then another, check again.   Had a BFH to make adjustments.  Even big metal moves around with heat.

 

Hope you're well and enjoyed our conversations about unions, coal mines and machines.

 

john

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realshelby

Good on you John! Just checking on you. Most would not believe how running a bead of weld on one side of something can wreak havoc on alignment. I have run a bead of weld on tubing....not even on a joint but to simply draw it back into alignment. 

 

I have studied some trailer plans since talking with you. Pretty sure I would go with the drop bed design. Probably wide enough for two bikes. Might consider aluminum for it to save weight, but honestly it should/could be fairly light in mild steel tubing. 

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John Ranalletta

The drop bed is the nuts!  Designing it is something else.  First, you must design and build the platform that's wide enough to comfortably load two big bikes and strong enough that, if only support on the four corners, would resist bending under the weight of the bikes on rough roads. 

 

I think aluminum is out of the picture.  Likely, DOM or square tube.  Second big challenge is the axle.  Using the Timbren system sounds good, but the side rails of the trailer wishbone would have to be big enough to resist twisting under the weight of the loaded platform.  Likely, that'd have to be a pretty big, heavy square tube.

 

image.png.ba85cd762a9b284f6bcf40d7ba911f75.png

 

The other option is a standard axle, sectioning it and moving the center of the axle rearward.  Alignment isn't an issue as the axle ends are still attached to the leaf springs. The issues include positioning the cut out piece of axle to maintain OEM caster/camber and locating it so it allows the platform to lie flat on the grouns.

 

I could do another one but I'd start with a conventional m/c trailer and hack it up.  I think the Nomanco dual would be a good candidate.  My drop platform trailer "Frankentrailer" was an old Nomanco single.  Built like a damn tank.  

 

 SC2000_2.jpg     SC1200.jpg

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John Ranalletta

Borrowed a friend's Sherline load cell to check tongue weight, etc.  I weighed all 3 corners of the trailer (hitch, left, right).  The results are interesting and bring the technique into question.  My purpose was to find tongue weight, fully-loaded that appears to be 140 lbs.  Recommend Tw ranges from 9-15%.  Fully loaded, this Tw is 12.3% w/o cases, 11.9% with (cases are aft of wheels - see pic)

 

If the weights are any where near accurate, the bare trailer weighs in at 460 lbs.  With GS, 1140; and with top/side cases loaded per usual, 1,175.  I think these numbers, while good enough for my purposes, are suspect.  The spec weight of a 2015, fully-fueled w/o cases is 525, 155 lbs less than net my GS' weight shown below; and the GS tank is full. That's a lot!!  Likely, the crash bars, Clearwater lights, Wunderlich stuff don't add up to 155 lbs.  The rear measurements are from directly under each spindle.

 

For the Unrally, I moved the GS forward ca. 4" and since moved it back on the bed.  Since the Tw in the original position is at target, moving the GS forward for this exercise doesn't make sense. 

 

I'll have to pull the rig over a Cat scale to get an accurate reading.  

 

Here are the results:

 

IMG_5864.thumb.JPG.ed76494c47e1d4cf93775588378848c3.JPG   image.thumb.png.1ea656d14e97f8d4bd1fc823b152d6cf.png

 

IMG_5866.thumb.JPG.2eae65320bdf01b2d05f8734aa608299.JPG

             

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
John Ranalletta

So, after much wailing, gnashing of teeth, grinding and welding, the vibration problem was all wheel and tire related.  Had I stopped to think about it longer, it would have been clear.  

  • the vibration was speed-related
  • i've towed w/o issues from NY to MT in the past 
  • It took nearly 6oz of lead to balance each tire
  • the tires could not be professionally balanced
  • the 8" BIAS tires became egg-shaped (about 1/4" out-of-round) as the miles added up.  Basically, golf cart tires.

The solution as proven this afternoon, is a set of 12" radials that are professionally balance, one taking 1/2oz and the other, 1 oz - not bad.  I was concerned raising the trailer bed 2.5" would be an issue as the air bag will only deflate so far, but it works okay.

The 8" wheels had a 4x4 bolt pattern, so new hubs were required, but they're pretty cheap.

image.png.45fe5eb7dbfa95224c76f3a197e89b4c.png

 

 

Tomorrow, I'm towing it a few hundred miles to southern IN as a check ride for FART.

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John Ranalletta
11 hours ago, greiffster said:

those are jacked up tires/wheels.

 

 

They did well for the first few thousand miles but they're essentially balloon tires.  The Chinese kid who molded them is still laughing.

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  • 9 months later...
John Ranalletta
On 9/2/2019 at 10:44 PM, MikeB60 said:

Sounds like you got it figured out!

 

 

Hi, MIke.  Good to be with you and DyAnne at last weekend in Dahlonega.  Sorry for the occasion.

 

As you saw, I borrowed a conventional trailer for the trip and was surprised, disappointed, frustrated to find the issue has not been with the Airluft trailer but with the BMW X3.  I towed the trailer from Montana to the East Coast multiple times with my 335d and it performed flawlessly at all speeds.  Only when pulling with the X3 did we start to notice pretty significant vibration kicking in around 65 mph.  Driving home Sunday as slower speeds due to heavy rain, the vibration appeared as the X3 labor up hill.  The vibration went away above 70mph.  So, I'm pretty sure the issue is with the tow vehicle, not the trailer; and, is likely a drive shaft.  The X3 is scheduled for service this Thursday.  Hopefully, the problem will be found and fixed.

 

BTW, after manhandling three ramps and getting the GS up and down, ground-level loading is the only way to go.

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John Ranalletta
2 minutes ago, MikeB60 said:

Good to see y'all as well.  Hopefully they can get the X3 sorted.  Or get Ruth one of these 

MY20-RAM-3500-VLP-Desktop-Pillars-05.jpg.image.1440.jpg

 

Not sorted.  I borrowed a friend's Honda Passport and it exhibited the same shake.  Very puzzling.  Don't know what changed that made it go from towing like it was on rails to shaking.  Might just become recycled material soon.

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Bill_Walker
On 7/3/2020 at 4:40 AM, John Ranalletta said:

Not sorted.  I borrowed a friend's Honda Passport and it exhibited the same shake. 


Were the trailer ball heights different on the different tow vehicles?  I'm wondering if it could be some aerodynamic effect due to a different angle of attack.  Or different airflow under the vehicle bellies, or just around the vehicle bodies.

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John Ranalletta
36 minutes ago, Bill_Walker said:


Were the trailer ball heights different on the different tow vehicles?  I'm wondering if it could be some aerodynamic effect due to a different angle of attack.  Or different airflow under the vehicle bellies, or just around the vehicle bodies.

 

Roughly the same ball height.  I'm almost certain the issue is in one axle or the other.  Perhaps, one is a bit bent having hit a pothole.  This isn't a conventional trailer with a rigid, sprung axle.  Hard to explain but I think a wheel is toed in/out but don't have the means to measure in the apartment garage.  This is a custom airlift trailer that uses an air bag to raise/lower it obviating the need for ramps.

 

I'm hoping a wheel alignment shop will put it on the rack for inspection.  They can't adjust anything, but that data will dictate next steps.

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Bill_Walker
On 7/4/2020 at 2:01 PM, John Ranalletta said:

This is a custom airlift trailer that uses an air bag to raise/lower it obviating the need for ramps.

 

Yeah, I remember following the build.  Did that pothole hit happen after towing with the non-vibrating vehicle?  Sounds like you might be onto something.

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  • 2 months later...
John Ranalletta

Finally fed up with the shimmy; and, having resolved the tires & wheels were not the cause, I disassembled the trailer last week and CAREFULLY measured the distance between the end of each axle and the center point on the hitch.  I found the left(facing rearward) axle was 1.25 inches farther away than the right.   I can only assume that the tires where "skipping" as they were a few degrees off the direction of travel.

 

I shortened the longer side and welded it up.  We towed about 1,000 miles this week successfully.  No shimmy, no shakes, no vibrations.  Today, towing at 80mph, I said, "I'm surprised so small an offset caused such grief."  Ruth responded, "I guess so.  I forgot we were towing!!!"

 

 

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  • 9 months later...
John Ranalletta
On 6/9/2019 at 11:46 AM, John Ranalletta said:

image.jpg

Kind of a sad day.

 

This is the trailer today before hauling to recycle.  I thought I had the shakes cured but they reappeared on the return from Wisconsin.  I think it was a combo of toe in and camber that were just too difficult to correct.  Likely cause was not having a trued fixture when I welded the struts.  Oh well.  It was a fun build anyway.

 

1471062788_IMG_77901.thumb.JPG.5cfe4b8098417d75b0dbe12551bcefea.JPG

IMG_7789[1].JPG

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