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dirtrider

Throttle Body "MORE" cracked cable cams/pulleys

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Ponch
8 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening KDeline

 

No, I'm not totally sure what causes the failure but it seems that age & heat cycles seem to be a big contributor.

 

Just not a very good design as the plastic not only cracks, but due to the way the plastic is molded on once they crack the 3 pass through attachments to the lever  cause a camming effect to make them split off even easier. 

 

You do have the option to send your throttle bodies to Bing USA to have the cams or cams+shafts replaced but they don't do any measuring as they just take your money,  install the new parts, then pat you on the butt & send your TB's back.

 

There is also an aluminum cam deal that go on over you existing levers (once the old plastic is totally removed). You can do it yourself or send the TB's to the company & have them do it. Not cheap but a lot less $$$$  than new TB's.

 

This should be a recall deal as it is dangerous but so far nothing is being done, probably not enough riders have reported it as the same failure issue.

 

I reported it and there were 3-4 others. Thing is, when I approached BMW about it, it was the standard, first we heard of that, which is BS. I agree with the heat. I was an early adopter and I live in AZ now. I know I am butt hurt about this, but shame on BMW. I got used TBs and if these go, I still have the originals. 

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KDeline
15 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening KDeline

 

No, I'm not totally sure what causes the failure but it seems that age & heat cycles seem to be a big contributor.

 

Just not a very good design as the plastic not only cracks, but due to the way the plastic is molded on once they crack the 3 pass through attachments to the lever  cause a camming effect to make them split off even easier. 

 

You do have the option to send your throttle bodies to Bing USA to have the cams or cams+shafts replaced but they don't do any measuring as they just take your money,  install the new parts, then pat you on the butt & send your TB's back.

 

There is also an aluminum cam deal that go on over you existing levers (once the old plastic is totally removed). You can do it yourself or send the TB's to the company & have them do it. Not cheap but a lot less $$$$  than new TB's. (you basically get what you get)

 

This should be a recall deal as it is dangerous but so far nothing is being done, probably not enough riders have reported it as the same type failure issue.

Meant to ask do you think the feeling of a slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams? Wondering if they were badly cracked when purchased, and that is why I could never smooth it out. Since I have other 2009's would be nice to know if this is a warning symptom. 

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dirtrider
2 minutes ago, KDeline said:

Meant to ask do you think the feeling of a slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams? Wondering if they were badly cracked when purchased, and that is why I could never smooth it out. Since I have other 2009's would be nice to know if this is a warning symptom. 

Morning  KDeline

 

Not impossible but highly unlikely that slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams. That 1200 miss is usually a lean fueling issue, on most it is usually more heard in the exhaust sound than actually felt by the rider. 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
16 hours ago, Ponch said:

I reported it and there were 3-4 others.

 

Seems like every one of us who has replaced cracked throttle cams (whether we got stranded or not) ought to be reporting this.

 

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

 

You can upload pictures directly with your report, or you can put them into a PowerPoint file, where you can add notes and arrows.  You can't upload a PowerPoint file, but you can convert it to a PDF file for free here, and then you can upload the PDF.

 

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Ponch
2 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Seems like every one of us who has replaced cracked throttle cams (whether we got stranded or not) ought to be reporting this.

 

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

 

You can upload pictures directly with your report, or you can put them into a PowerPoint file, where you can add notes and arrows.  You can't upload a PowerPoint file, but you can convert it to a PDF file for free here, and then you can upload the PDF.

 

I reported mine, so I did my part. At the time, I couldn't get replacement cams and there wasn't the metal one's yet, so I bought a used set off a 20k mile salvage bike. BMW was like, have a dealer fix it and submit the receipt and we might do something. Or not. Right. At the time it was a $1400 repair. I did it for 235 and that was with buying the pliers. I didn't ride the bike for a while after fixing it though. I was that pissed. 

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wbw6cos

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

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dirtrider
51 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

Afternoon   wbw6cos

 

The side that breaks returns to idle.     If that is the L/H side then you have no fueling on either side above idle. If the R/H side breaks then you will have a little power from the L/H cylinder but the R/H side will stay at idle (air flow wise) but over-fuel to the L/H side throttle position. (pretty well un-rideabel either way)   

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Ponch
37 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

Mine went to idle and I was on a road where it was 65mph speed limit. I had to call a tow. 

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wbw6cos

I had a thought of those breaking and causing it to get stuck in WOT position.  Good to know.   Thanks!

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9Mary7

Just filed a complaint for my 2005. I'll get my 2011 on the lift this week and have a look at it as well.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
4 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

I had a thought of those breaking and causing it to get stuck in WOT position.  Good to know.   Thanks!

 

That would be quite a bit worse, but the NHTSA still takes a dim view of failures that cause loss of power.  I had a car fixed under recall once because there was a potential for a sensor failure that could cause the engine to stall.  I'm a little surprised that there was never a recall for the HES failure that bedeviled the '96-'01 oilheads.  Maybe not enough people reported the issue at the time?

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

That would be quite a bit worse, but the NHTSA still takes a dim view of failures that cause loss of power.  I had a car fixed under recall once because there was a potential for a sensor failure that could cause the engine to stall.  I'm a little surprised that there was never a recall for the HES failure that bedeviled the '96-'01 oilheads.  Maybe not enough people reported the issue at the time?

Morning Mitch

 

In the past NHTSA hasn't given much importance to motorcycle problems. But even when they did take notice they had problems correlating reported issues into a single failure type.  That is partially due to NHTSA not having defined failure options but also due to BMW & BMW riders using different names for failed parts.

 

It could go a long way towards getting BMW motorcycle recalls started & monitored if major BMW groups like MOA etc would have a reporting forum that had a how-to-report & how-to-word the report so all similar safety related BMW failures would all be worded about the same & reported under the same heading to NHTSA.  

 

Just look at the BMW HES, most older BMW riders simply call it an HES, or Hall Effect Sensor, official BMW service manual  calls it a "magnetic gate", or "magnetic sensor", & the parts manual calls it an "ignition sensor".   

 

The other possibility  was, even with the number of HES failures most failed at next morning engine starting not while riding. A few did actually fail while riding but some of those didn't cause a total quit just a poor running engine acting like it was running out of gasoline.

 

These 1200 hexhead throttle cams are probably something NHTSA should be, or would be, interested in as they could easily cause a death if one should break pulling out in front of traffic, or  leaving the rider without engine power on a high speed freeway without a safe place to pull off. But how many broken 1200 throttle cams have actually been reported to NHTSA, then just as important, how many were reported in the same category, as the exact same failure, using the same name for failed parts, causing the same possible dangerous condition?   

 

Then how does NHTSA even track these throttle cam failures as most were replaced at home, or using used throttle bodies or as full new throttle bodies at a BMW dealer.  

 

It's starting to show but how many 1200 riders are now riding with cracked throttle cams with potential failure that don't even know they have the cracked cams?  If NHTSA would get involved they could force BMW to issue an inspection recall. BMW is just holding their breath hoping these 1200 bikes get old enough to die a natural death before they are forced into a recall situation.

 

You need to remember that automobiles are for senators daughters, their grandkids, & re-election voters so they get attention, but motorcycles are for crazies with a death wish so they get the blind eye.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9Mary7

Soooooo, got my Camhead on the lift and found cracked throttle cams, just like my '05 Hexhead. Will file a complaint today.

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Tech1

Another pair; it looks like both have cracks on my 2005 RT, 32K miles.

 

IV000035.JPG.f39a2dd6497c48753f32255cd8813117.JPGIV000039.JPG.eba5e56ba5dfb46ab969994674cef104.JPGes.

IV000037.JPG

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9Mary7

Please make sure you file a complaint with NHTSA

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Tech1

NHTSA is done!  Not much hope because of the age, but maybe?  Still it may put some heat on BMW and Bing for this poor design choice.  Hopefully they learn.

 

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

DirtRider, thanks for the excellent write up on the methods to keep things as close to the same as possible.

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dirtrider
49 minutes ago, Tech1 said:

NHTSA is done!  Not much hope because of the age, but maybe?  Still it may put some heat on BMW and Bing for this poor design choice.  Hopefully they learn.

 

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

DirtRider, thanks for the excellent write up on the methods to keep things as close to the same as possible.

Afternoon Tech1

 

You might order that cap that goes over the R/H throttle  shaft open end, I haven't had a lot of problems getting that darn thing off but some have & it can surely fight you, so for the little cost might want to have a new one handy just in case.  

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Joe Frickin' Friday
15 hours ago, Tech1 said:

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

 

 

The various other bits and pieces are low cost, so as long as you've got the throttle bodies apart, it's not a bad idea to have all new hardware on hand.  

 

15 hours ago, dirtrider said:

You might order that cap that goes over the R/H throttle  shaft open end, I haven't had a lot of problems getting that darn thing off but some have & it can surely fight you, so for the little cost might want to have a new one handy just in case.  

 

I tried briefly to pry my old one off, but I could see that the most likely outcome was to just hack up the aluminum throttle body.  Someone upthread used a Dremel to gingerly cut through their cap to free it up; I opted for a hand file to gradually grind my way through one side of my cap, allowing me to visually gauge progress and see when my file just started to get through the steel cap.  Dremel is certainly much faster, but man, you gotta be careful not to hack into the aluminum just under the cap.

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Tech1
13 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

I tried briefly to pry my old one off, but I could see that the most likely outcome was to just hack up the aluminum throttle body.  Someone upthread used a Dremel to gingerly cut through their cap to free it up; I opted for a hand file to gradually grind my way through one side of my cap, allowing me to visually gauge progress and see when my file just started to get through the steel cap.  Dremel is certainly much faster, but man, you gotta be careful not to hack into the aluminum just under the cap.

 

Thanks, I think I may try prying with a small pry tool I have, then if it doesn't look easy, I will try the file.

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dirtrider
12 hours ago, Tech1 said:

 

Thanks, I think I may try prying with a small pry tool I have, then if it doesn't look easy, I will try the file.

Morning  Tech1

 

Those caps don't just slide off even with dedicated prying, you need to pry around the caps best you can by prying on alternate sides continually. The cap will usually work off in very/very small increments as you keep prying on alternate sides. Once you get it moving a little then it will start coming off easier.    

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The Rocketman

At about 55,000 miles on my 2009 R1200RT I read this thread and think it's about time I check to see if my pulleys are cracked. Would you please tell me where and how to look once I have all the tupperware removed?  I've seen many photos of the pulleys & TBs, but none yet that answer my question so I can use the mirror and see them. Thanks.

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aggieengineer

Here is a right side throttle body removed from the bike. Perhaps this will make sense when you look at yours. Hope it helps.

P1040109.JPG

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9Mary7

With the bodywork removed, the throttle cable cams are on the inside of the throttle bodies. Trace your throttle cables down to the plastic shield, this will slide up the cable so that a mirror placed up from under the TB's on the engine side will show you the plastic cams.

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The Rocketman

Thanks. I'll have a look in there soon and see what's up.

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The Rocketman

Well.....I pulled the right side plastic off my '09 RT this morning, and I guess there was no need to continue on to the left side......ugggh!

Would you suggest that if I don't want to get involved in base idle screws and any other adjustments, that I purchase the Bing unit with attached shaft, Bing unit without the shaft, or Beemer Bits alloy without the shaft? Assuming the originals lasted 12 years and 55,000 miles, plastic replacements would be sufficient.

Also, anyone here who has done this on their bike and lives within a couple of hours of Long Island up for doing this a second time? I'd be happy to make the road trip and will bring the parts with me, assuming its a one day repair and you have the time and desire. (Plus I've had my 2nd Covid shot, and I'm generally a pleasant person to hang with :classic_biggrin:.)

 

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dirtrider
26 minutes ago, The Rocketman said:

Well.....I pulled the right side plastic off my '09 RT this morning, and I guess there was no need to continue on to the left side......ugggh!

Would you suggest that if I don't want to get involved in base idle screws and any other adjustments, that I purchase the Bing unit with attached shaft, Bing unit without the shaft, or Beemer Bits alloy without the shaft? Assuming the originals lasted 12 years and 55,000 miles, plastic replacements would be sufficient.

Also, anyone here who has done this on their bike and lives within a couple of hours of Long Island up for doing this a second time? I'd be happy to make the road trip and will bring the parts with me, assuming its a one day repair and you have the time and desire. (Plus I've had my 2nd Covid shot, and I'm generally a pleasant person to hang with :classic_biggrin:.)

 

Afternoon The Rocketman

 

Yep, those need attention pretty quickly. 

 

Both the Bing USA cams or Bing USA shaft/cams will need involvement in base idle measurements. 

 

The  "Beemer Bits alloy" get installed on your bare throttle arms after you remove the plastic outer cams so those don't mess with the base idle. 

 

 

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The Rocketman

Thanks very much for the advice. Assuming I can’t find anyone to volunteer to assist, are there any detailed instructions on just how to remove the plastic outer cams, and can these be removed without removing the shafts?

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, The Rocketman said:

Thanks very much for the advice. Assuming I can’t find anyone to volunteer to assist, are there any detailed instructions on just how to remove the plastic outer cams, and can these be removed without removing the shafts?

Afternoon The Rocketman

 

If this in reference to installing the "Beemer Bits alloy" cams then you should be able to CAREFULLY & SLOWLY remove the plastic factory cams down to the bare levers. 

 

You will have to remove the throttle bodies to do that as the cams are on the back side of the throttle bodies.

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The Rocketman

Got it. Thanks again.

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The Rocketman

NHTSA complaint filed.

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wbw6cos

Ouch!!

 

During the Wethead Tech Demo at START, Boxflyer had some throttle bodies with cracked pulleys on them.   One of the cracks was pretty small - hardly noticeable compared to yours, Larry.

 

Hope you get it sorted.   

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The Rocketman

I will. I'm going to order the Beemer Bits alloy ones since they will most likely outlive me, and won't require any other adjustments afterwards. Will enlist the help of a friend who has a local bike repair shop and tools. I feel better having a second set of eyes doing this, unless I find someone here to assist first. Beemer Bits only has one set left in stock, as they said they just shipped 8 sets to Japan yesterday, but they should have more in a week or so.

I did a 325 mile ride last weekend not knowing about this. I've put maybe 40,000 miles on the bike since I got it, and don't know how long the cracks have been there. Now that I've seen it, I'm hesitant to ride the bike until its repaired. And I didn't even bother to look at the left side. Guess its a good thing I have a few bikes to pick from. As much as folks rag on our R1200C's with all their shortcomings, at least they don't have cheap, crap plastic throttle cable cams.

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Tech1

After placing an order online with Bing for just the pulleys and the right side cap, they called me the next day suggesting I purchase the assembled pulleys and shafts.  They said they now get them assembled from Bing, with screws and washers to hold the pulleys in place instead of swedging.  They used to drill and tap the shafts themselves to add screws to hold the pulleys to the shafts, but now they get them already done from the factory.  Of course they also suggested new throttle plate screws and the clip just in case it is damaged.  I bit their suggestion and will receive them complete with all of the replacement parts.  Probably not necessary, but still a lot cheaper than some of the other options.

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, Tech1 said:

After placing an order online with Bing for just the pulleys and the right side cap, they called me the next day suggesting I purchase the assembled pulleys and shafts.  They said they now get them assembled from Bing, with screws and washers to hold the pulleys in place instead of swedging.  They used to drill and tap the shafts themselves to add screws to hold the pulleys to the shafts, but now they get them already done from the factory.  Of course they also suggested new throttle plate screws and the clip just in case it is damaged.  I bit their suggestion and will receive them complete with all of the replacement parts.  Probably not necessary, but still a lot cheaper than some of the other options.

Morning Tech1

 

Getting the shafts with cams already pre-installed is a good idea as it is very easy to slightly bend the old shafts removing or installing the new cams.  Bent shafts really complicate getting it back to where it was as far as idle air flow goes.

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KDeline
On 4/28/2021 at 4:16 PM, The Rocketman said:

NHTSA complaint filed.

Mine also....

 

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The Rocketman

My new cams shipped out from Beemer Bits yesterday.

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The Rocketman

In today's mail. I'll let you know how the install goes.

 

 

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